Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
* Rhodri James (Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:57:42 -) On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:13:38 -, W. eWatson notval...@sbcglobal.net wrote: OK, enough tinkering with the code and others matters on my end trying to find a work around. Somehow after much successful use of IDLE's execution facility, I've stepped on an invisible banana peel. I think it's evident that I'm not going around this problem easily with the IDLE execution attempts, and that another solution is required. Congratulations, we've only been telling you this for the last few days. I wonder, is there any chance that you've noticed the solution given? The Lord gives and the Lord takes. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer... Thorsten -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
* W. eWatson (Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:58:33 -0800) Scott David Daniels wrote: OK, you are using the oldest and least useful revision control system, rename and remember. I'd suggest you get and use bazaar, but you'll just ask for shortcuts on how to use it without understanding what it does. It works for me, and, frankly, I'm not interested in going to Linux, SunOS or other revision systmes. These are way in my distant past, and the only reason I'm currently, and begrudgingly, once again writing programs is that the Python software program I am using is limited in its ability. You, sir, certainly made my day. Thank you! Thorsten -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 05:03:13 -, W. eWatson notval...@sbcglobal.net wrote: See my response to Scott. Thanks for your reply. I did. It was fundamentally mistaken in so many respects that I formally give up on you. -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste Herder to the Masses -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
Terry Reedy wrote: W. eWatson wrote: From Diez above. What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. So this is the absolute truth? No wiggle room? One can never use a Tkinter program with IDLE, and execute it successfully. So IDLE doesn't issue a standard warning that says, Get out of here with your Tkinter program, it will fail when you try to run it here. You have entered Tkinter hell. Good-bye. Re-read my post about kids fighting to control a television. Maybe they work together, maybe they crash the TV. Hard to predict. ***ANY*** Python program that tries to grab and control the same resources that TK does may conflict with it. There is no way that IDLE can have a list of, for instance, all event-grabbing mainloop programs. OK, enough tinkering with the code and others matters on my end trying to find a work around. Somehow after much successful use of IDLE's execution facility, I've stepped on an invisible banana peel. I think it's evident that I'm not going around this problem easily with the IDLE execution attempts, and that another solution is required. First, I think somewhere up the thread someone suggested that Active pythonWin is not dependent upon Tk, correct? Therefore, it is immune from such problems, correct? Second, maybe I missed it above, but when I posted the output from the program that showed the failure, was there anything that said, IDLE problem or would even give a clue that's the culprit? Finally, we can probably agree that I can continue to use IDLE for editing and syntax checking, but to guarantee successful execution of the program, I can just double-click on the py file in my folder. Perhaps there is a better way than clicking on it in the folder. For example, putting it on the desktop. As I look at the folder, previous copies only differ by a digit, I can easily find myself executing an earlier version, differing as Dev4, to Dev5 at the end of each name. Let me ask this. When I install Active Python, am I getting something beyond their interface? That is, does executing the code there result in using the same python interpreter that is used by IDLE? My use of their editor has been somewhat exasperating. It does not seem as friendly as the IDLE editor. I still find it bizarre that the original creator of this program can spend months using IDLE to develop this program, and that I've spent maybe 10 days recently now adding to it without having much, if any, problem with IDLE and the programs execution within IDLE. I asked him almost a year ago what tool he used. IDLE, was the reply. Maybe it was really IDLE with no execution from inside IDLE. I'll ask him. -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
W. eWatson wrote: Terry Reedy wrote: W. eWatson wrote: From Diez above. What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. So this is the absolute truth? No wiggle room? One can never use a Tkinter program with IDLE, and execute it successfully. So IDLE doesn't issue a standard warning that says, Get out of here with your Tkinter program, it will fail when you try to run it here. You have entered Tkinter hell. Good-bye. Re-read my post about kids fighting to control a television. Maybe they work together, maybe they crash the TV. Hard to predict. ***ANY*** Python program that tries to grab and control the same resources that TK does may conflict with it. There is no way that IDLE can have a list of, for instance, all event-grabbing mainloop programs. OK, enough tinkering with the code and others matters on my end trying to find a work around. Somehow after much successful use of IDLE's execution facility, I've stepped on an invisible banana peel. I think it's evident that I'm not going around this problem easily with the IDLE execution attempts, and that another solution is required. That's correct, but you still don't understand _why_ it is correct. I suggest you re-read the thread and try to understand everything you are being told. First, I think somewhere up the thread someone suggested that Active pythonWin is not dependent upon Tk, correct? Therefore, it is immune from such problems, correct? Wrong. I was the one who said that ActiveState had a product to debug Python programs across a nertwork connection. The product is _not_ ActivePython (the freely distributed system), but rather the Komodo IDE, which does cost money. Finally, we can probably agree that I can continue to use IDLE for editing and syntax checking, but to guarantee successful execution of the program, I can just double-click on the py file in my folder. Perhaps there is a better way than clicking on it in the folder. For example, putting it on the desktop. As I look at the folder, previous copies only differ by a digit, I can easily find myself executing an earlier version, differing as Dev4, to Dev5 at the end of each name. OK, you are using the oldest and least useful revision control system, rename and remember. I'd suggest you get and use bazaar, but you'll just ask for shortcuts on how to use it without understanding what it does. --Scott David Daniels scott.dani...@acm.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:13:38 -, W. eWatson notval...@sbcglobal.net wrote: OK, enough tinkering with the code and others matters on my end trying to find a work around. Somehow after much successful use of IDLE's execution facility, I've stepped on an invisible banana peel. I think it's evident that I'm not going around this problem easily with the IDLE execution attempts, and that another solution is required. Congratulations, we've only been telling you this for the last few days. I wonder, is there any chance that you've noticed the solution given? First, I think somewhere up the thread someone suggested that Active pythonWin is not dependent upon Tk, correct? Someone certainly suggested that something is based on Microsoft Foundation Classes, which isn't very likely to be Tk-based :-) Whatever that something is, I'm pretty sure it isn't called Active pythonWin. Therefore, it is immune from such problems, correct? No. Let me put it like this. Your Tkinter program is listening out for events like windows being moved, the mouse being clicked, keys being pressed and so on. IDLE also listens out for a selection of events of the same sort. A different graphical IDE will do the same, but will trap and interpret the events in an entirely different manner that is probably not even a little bit compatible with your program. When you run your program from inside *any* IDE, not just IDLE, it's a bit of a lottery as to whether your program gets an event, or the IDE does. Chances are, *both* need to see it, at which point you're stuck. It is possible to do this successfully, but only in a very limited way and only if you're very careful. If you think either of those conditions hold, you are wrong. Second, maybe I missed it above, but when I posted the output from the program that showed the failure, was there anything that said, IDLE problem or would even give a clue that's the culprit? How can it? It's not IDLE's problem, it's yours. Finally, we can probably agree that I can continue to use IDLE for editing and syntax checking, but to guarantee successful execution of the program, I can just double-click on the py file in my folder. Perhaps there is a better way than clicking on it in the folder. Typing at a command prompt. For example, putting it on the desktop. This causes an extra file read as Windows indirects through the desktop link. It's unlikely to be a noticeable delay at startup, but I'd hesitate to call it better. As I look at the folder, previous copies only differ by a digit, I can easily find myself executing an earlier version, differing as Dev4, to Dev5 at the end of each name. I'd suggest spending a while reading up on version control systems. -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste Herder to the Masses -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
Scott David Daniels wrote: W. eWatson wrote: Terry Reedy wrote: W. eWatson wrote: From Diez above. What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. So this is the absolute truth? No wiggle room? One can never use a Tkinter program with IDLE, and execute it successfully. So IDLE doesn't issue a standard warning that says, Get out of here with your Tkinter program, it will fail when you try to run it here. You have entered Tkinter hell. Good-bye. Re-read my post about kids fighting to control a television. Maybe they work together, maybe they crash the TV. Hard to predict. ***ANY*** Python program that tries to grab and control the same resources that TK does may conflict with it. There is no way that IDLE can have a list of, for instance, all event-grabbing mainloop programs. OK, enough tinkering with the code and others matters on my end trying to find a work around. Somehow after much successful use of IDLE's execution facility, I've stepped on an invisible banana peel. I think it's evident that I'm not going around this problem easily with the IDLE execution attempts, and that another solution is required. That's correct, but you still don't understand _why_ it is correct. I suggest you re-read the thread and try to understand everything you are being told. First, I think somewhere up the thread someone suggested that Active pythonWin is not dependent upon Tk, correct? Therefore, it is immune from such problems, correct? Wrong. I was the one who said that ActiveState had a product to debug Python programs across a nertwork connection. The product is _not_ ActivePython (the freely distributed system), but rather the Komodo IDE, which does cost money. I'm pretty sure it wasn't you, and had no relationship to what you brought up earlier several messages up the thread. There are other forums. Finally, we can probably agree that I can continue to use IDLE for editing and syntax checking, but to guarantee successful execution of the program, I can just double-click on the py file in my folder. Perhaps there is a better way than clicking on it in the folder. For example, putting it on the desktop. As I look at the folder, previous copies only differ by a digit, I can easily find myself executing an earlier version, differing as Dev4, to Dev5 at the end of each name. OK, you are using the oldest and least useful revision control system, rename and remember. I'd suggest you get and use bazaar, but you'll just ask for shortcuts on how to use it without understanding what it does. It works for me, and, frankly, I'm not interested in going to Linux, SunOS or other revision systmes. These are way in my distant past, and the only reason I'm currently, and begrudgingly, once again writing programs is that the Python software program I am using is limited in its ability. I've finally, after 2-3 years of hoping someone else would do it, taken up the torch to add new features. Frankly, I'd rather be doing something else with my time. And, yes, you are somewhat correct in your earlier assessment of my goals, the sooner this is over the better. You may not like my philosophy, but it serves me well at the moment, and I'm moving ahead nicely now. As I recall from the old movie Desk Set, a conversation between their two characters regarding a puzzle he was about to give her as a test of her office abilities: Tracy cautions Hepburn, Never assume! before relating the famous detective problem. Never assume. Nevertheless, thank you for your responses. Be kind to your keyboard. Cheers. --Scott David Daniels scott.dani...@acm.org -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
... How can it? It's not IDLE's problem, it's yours. Finally, we can probably agree that I can continue to use IDLE for editing and syntax checking, but to guarantee successful execution of the program, I can just double-click on the py file in my folder. Perhaps there is a better way than clicking on it in the folder. Typing at a command prompt. For example, putting it on the desktop. This causes an extra file read as Windows indirects through the desktop link. It's unlikely to be a noticeable delay at startup, but I'd hesitate to call it better. As I look at the folder, previous copies only differ by a digit, I can easily find myself executing an earlier version, differing as Dev4, to Dev5 at the end of each name. I'd suggest spending a while reading up on version control systems. See my response to Scott. Thanks for your reply. -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:58:33 -0800, W. eWatson wrote: Scott David Daniels wrote: OK, you are using the oldest and least useful revision control system, rename and remember. I'd suggest you get and use bazaar, but you'll just ask for shortcuts on how to use it without understanding what it does. It works for me, and, frankly, I'm not interested in going to Linux, SunOS or other revision systmes. Linux and SunOS are *operating systems*, something completely different from *revision control systems*. A revision or version control system (VCS) lets you record the evolution of your software. You can tag versions with symbolic names like Dev4 or Release-1.0 and can ask the VCS for a copy of the sources with a given tag or even date. Ciao, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
W. eWatson wrote: It appears if one moves between IDLE and pythonWin (pyWin) that two separate loops (threads?) can occur, and that IDLE can produce incorrect results. Since I have preferred IDLE over pyWin, that leaves me currently in a quandry. How do I renew these processes, so that I can proceed with IDLE? I noticed that I had about 10-15 copies of pythonw.exe as I tried to reach some understanding of what was going on. Killing these tasks didn't help restore order to IDLE. It seems my only choice now is to reboot? Comments? Gosh no, rebooting shouldn't be needed. Just quit all idle pywin processes, including of course the main programs. Which *should* be anything that is needed anyway. And you still seem to not understand what is really happening. Working between pywin and idle is perfectly fine, they are separate programs. You can start as many instances of a program as you want and happily work with them. Even several instances of idle and pywin, unless these come with some logic to prevent multiple starts - some windows app do that. What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
Diez B. Roggisch wrote: W. eWatson wrote: It appears if one moves between IDLE and pythonWin (pyWin) that two separate loops (threads?) can occur, and that IDLE can produce incorrect results. Since I have preferred IDLE over pyWin, that leaves me currently in a quandry. How do I renew these processes, so that I can proceed with IDLE? I noticed that I had about 10-15 copies of pythonw.exe as I tried to reach some understanding of what was going on. Killing these tasks didn't help restore order to IDLE. It seems my only choice now is to reboot? Comments? Gosh no, rebooting shouldn't be needed. Just quit all idle pywin processes, including of course the main programs. Which *should* be anything that is needed anyway. Done that. Been there. It doesn't work. If I take another py tkinter program and run it in IDLE, it *will work*. The current program goes boom. And you still seem to not understand what is really happening. Whether I understand it exactly or not is not the issue. The issue is how do I execute IDLE *now* to get the correct results it once allowed? The fact of the matter is that I was happily working in IDLE for days and hours. I encountered a problem in IDLE that seemed suspicious, so I then fired up pyWin to see if it gave the same results. It worked fine. Then my problems with IDLE got worse. Working between pywin and idle is perfectly fine, they are separate programs. You can start as many instances of a program as you want and happily work with them. Even several instances of idle and pywin, unless these come with some logic to prevent multiple starts - some windows app do that. How could this be true; otherwise, I wouldn't be complaining? What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. Personally, I like running entirely in IDLE. If there is no other way than you suggested in NOT work, then I may just uninstall pyWin. Diez -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
Done that. Been there. It doesn't work. If I take another py tkinter program and run it in IDLE, it *will work*. The current program goes boom. That's pure luck then. IDLE is written in Tkinter, and *running* Tkinter apps inside of it is bound to fail sooner or later. Failure might be as drastic as termination of IDLE, or just some glitches. This has hit numerous people before, as you've been told several times now. What makes you think it doesn't affect you? And you still seem to not understand what is really happening. Whether I understand it exactly or not is not the issue. The issue is how do I execute IDLE *now* to get the correct results it once allowed? The fact of the matter is that I was happily working in IDLE for days and hours. I encountered a problem in IDLE that seemed suspicious, so I then fired up pyWin to see if it gave the same results. It worked fine. Then my problems with IDLE got worse. Working between pywin and idle is perfectly fine, they are separate programs. You can start as many instances of a program as you want and happily work with them. Even several instances of idle and pywin, unless these come with some logic to prevent multiple starts - some windows app do that. How could this be true; otherwise, I wouldn't be complaining? Coincidence? When Mom tells me the car broke down after she passed by the bakery, I don't assume one has to do with the other either. What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. Personally, I like running entirely in IDLE. This is not a question of your liking, it's a question of technical feasibility. if you have been working happily for hours and days as you tell us, I can only hope assume that you made actual progress. Which might have brought your own program to a point where it wasn't tolerable working from within idle anymore. That you in the meanttime chose to work with Pywin is irrelevant to that. If there is no other way than you suggested in NOT work, then I may just uninstall pyWin. Do so if you like - cargo cult programming isn't uncommon these days. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
On Feb 12, 8:57 am, W. eWatson notval...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Diez B. Roggisch wrote: W. eWatson wrote: It appears if one moves between IDLE and pythonWin (pyWin) that two separate loops (threads?) can occur, and that IDLE can produce incorrect results. Since I have preferred IDLE over pyWin, that leaves me currently in a quandry. How do I renew these processes, so that I can proceed with IDLE? I noticed that I had about 10-15 copies of pythonw.exe as I tried to reach some understanding of what was going on. Killing these tasks didn't help restore order to IDLE. It seems my only choice now is to reboot? Comments? Gosh no, rebooting shouldn't be needed. Just quit all idle pywin processes, including of course the main programs. Which *should* be anything that is needed anyway. Done that. Been there. It doesn't work. If I take another py tkinter program and run it in IDLE, it *will work*. The current program goes boom. And you still seem to not understand what is really happening. Whether I understand it exactly or not is not the issue. The issue is how do I execute IDLE *now* to get the correct results it once allowed? The fact of the matter is that I was happily working in IDLE for days and hours. I encountered a problem in IDLE that seemed suspicious, so I then fired up pyWin to see if it gave the same results. It worked fine. Then my problems with IDLE got worse. Working between pywin and idle is perfectly fine, they are separate programs. You can start as many instances of a program as you want and happily work with them. Even several instances of idle and pywin, unless these come with some logic to prevent multiple starts - some windows app do that. How could this be true; otherwise, I wouldn't be complaining? What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. Personally, I like running entirely in IDLE. If there is no other way than you suggested in NOT work, then I may just uninstall pyWin. Diez -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ I like IDLE too. However, I've experienced seemingly random crashes when programming wxPython programs in it. As already stated, the mainloops clash from time to time. So now I use Wingware or just edit the files in IDLE and run the program by double-click or via command line. Mike -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
I simply ask, How do I get around the problem? -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
As with Diez, I simply ask, How do I get around the problem? Are you two telling me that it is impossible? OK, here's my offer to both of you. Do you have IDLE for Python 2.5 and have good familiarity with Tkinter? If so, I'll send you the code and you can try it yourself. My guess is that it will work, and if not, and you are sufficiently skilled with Tkinter and debugging, you may find the problem in the code. The steps to create the problem are very easy. -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
W. eWatson wrote: As with Diez, I simply ask, How do I get around the problem? Are you two telling me that it is impossible? OK, here's my offer to both of you. Do you have IDLE for Python 2.5 and have good familiarity with Tkinter? If so, I'll send you the code and you can try it yourself. My guess is that it will work, and if not, and you are sufficiently skilled with Tkinter and debugging, you may find the problem in the code. The steps to create the problem are very easy. Well, this may be a bit trickier than I thought. I'd have to give you the same PIL, tkinter, numpy libraries the program users. However, Im willing to send the files for them to you. Here's the start of the code = from Tkinter import * from numpy import * import Image import ImageChops import ImageTk import ImageDraw # wtw import time import binascii import tkMessageBox import tkSimpleDialog from pylab import plot, xlabel, ylabel, title, show, xticks, bar from tkFileDialog import asksaveasfilename, asksaveasfile from tkFileDialog import askopenfilename import MakeQTE === You'd also need clut.txt, wagon.gif, and MakQTE. All small files. -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
W. eWatson wrote: As with Diez, I simply ask, How do I get around the problem? Are you two telling me that it is impossible? YES. That's what we and all the others who answered to you in the other thread are telling you, repeatedly. It is impossible. Really. No kidding. For sure. Jawoll, ganz sicher sogar. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
W. eWatson wrote: As with Diez, I simply ask, How do I get around the problem? Are you two telling me that it is impossible? OK, here's my offer to both of you. Do you have IDLE for Python 2.5 and have good familiarity with Tkinter? If so, I'll send you the code and you can try it yourself. My guess is that it will work, and if not, and you are sufficiently skilled with Tkinter and debugging, you may find the problem in the code. The steps to create the problem are very easy. They are telling you the truth, and you are replying, I don't want to understand, I just want it to work. They have shown great forbearance. The only time I have debugged any Tkinter code in IDLE, I have start with python -m idlelib.idle -n and accepted the fact that I will see crashes. The one advantage of my technique is that I can hand-execute single Tkinter operations and see the results immediately since I am running piggyback on IDLE's main loop. Once more, though I'm sure you don't want to hear it: Normally IDLE starts as a program running that talks to the user (idle.py). It starts a separate process that talks to the user interface over a TCP/IP port and does the things inside the shell (for example the expression evaluation). When you use the command Shell / Restart Shell, the process that interacts with your program is wiped out and new process is started (I think, perhaps they simply flush almost everything and restart). The reason only one IDLE session can live at a time is that a TCP/IP communication port has only two ends. If you don't kill _all_ of the pythonw processes, something will go wrong in the initial setting up the parent/child processes. Similarly, a GUI is not a library, but a framework. The GUI itself is the main program (run after you do some setup) that calls parts of your program as subroutines. You have a problem when you use a GUI to debug another GUI (there can be only _one_ main program). It does no good to stomp your foot and proclaim that you want it to work. Sometimes your code doesn't interfere too badly with IDLE's GUI, so it looks as if you have gotten away with it. For example, in-process IDLE (the -n flag) fiddles with the Tkinter environment in an attempt to reduce the conflict between IDLE's and your program's use of the GUI. The only solutions I've seen for debugging GUIs involve separated processes (even more so than IDLE), running on separate machines. With those, you don't share a keyboard, mouse, or display between the debugger and the program under test. Such solutions are available for a price. ActiveState, for example, sells one. The issue in each case is sharing things that the programs have every right to expect that they own. To wit, Display refresh points, the main program, the keyboard, tcp/ip ports, the mouse. --Scott David Daniels scott.dani...@acm.org -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
W. eWatson wrote: As with Diez, I simply ask, How do I get around the problem? Are you two telling me that it is impossible? Try this analogy. One television, two stubborn kids that want to watch different programs. One has the remote, the other the buttons on the TV. What happens? How do you make both happy. Solve that and get rich ;-). Even better analogy. One inbox. Two people on opposite sides each want 'first dibs' on each item that drops. How do you make them both happy, especially if they are equally stubborn clones? OK, here's my offer to both of you. Do you have IDLE for Python 2.5 and have good familiarity with Tkinter? If so, I'll send you the code and you can try it yourself. My guess is that it will work, and if not, and you are sufficiently skilled with Tkinter and debugging, you may find the problem in the code. The steps to create the problem are very easy. That is a request, not an offer. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:44:56 -, W. eWatson notval...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I simply ask, How do I get around the problem? Run your program from the command line, or by double-clicking. You've been told this several times now. -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste Herder to the Masses -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
Greetings and salutations.
I just uninstalled all traces of (Active) pythonWin 2.5.2 from this machine,
In fact, I uninstalled python 2.5.2 with IDLE from this machine. I then
reinstalled the latter. Then I ran the program. XP Pro.
I then went to another machine that has never had pythonWin on it all, but
does have python 2.5.2 with IDLE. I ran the same program there. W2K.
In both cases, I got the output below. Your conclusions?
===Output on Interactive Shell Screen===
GUI self---: __main__.Sentuser_GUI instance at 0x02154058
counter: 3
OSett self = __main__.Sentuser_GUI instance at 0x02154058 type = type
'instance'
gray scale now--wtw: True
Set OSDiag sdict
body from OSDialog, self = .35167928 type = type 'instance'
apply OSD ok
Exception in Tkinter callback
Traceback (most recent call last):
File C:\Python25\Lib\lib-tk\Tkinter.py, line 1403, in __call__
return self.func(*args)
File
C:\Sandia_Meteors\New_Sentinel_Development\Sentuser_Utilities_Related\sentuser\sentuserNC25-Dev4.py,
line 553, in OperationalSettings
dialog = OperationalSettingsDialog( self.master, set_loc_dict )
File
C:\Sandia_Meteors\New_Sentinel_Development\Sentuser_Utilities_Related\sentuser\sentuserNC25-Dev4.py,
line 81, in __init__
tkSimpleDialog.Dialog.__init__(self, parent)
File C:\Python25\lib\lib-tk\tkSimpleDialog.py, line 69, in __init__
self.wait_visibility() # window needs to be visible for the grab
File C:\Python25\Lib\lib-tk\Tkinter.py, line 415, in wait_visibility
self.tk.call('tkwait', 'visibility', window._w)
TclError: window .35167928 was deleted before its visibility changed
--
W. eWatson
(121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time)
Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet
Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 01:16:38 -, W. eWatson notval...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Greetings and salutations. I just uninstalled all traces of (Active) pythonWin 2.5.2 from this machine, In fact, I uninstalled python 2.5.2 with IDLE from this machine. I then reinstalled the latter. Then I ran the program. XP Pro. I then went to another machine that has never had pythonWin on it all, but does have python 2.5.2 with IDLE. I ran the same program there. W2K. In both cases, I got the output below. Your conclusions? That you haven't listened to a word anyone has said. -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeeste Herder to the Masses -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
From Diez above. What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. So this is the absolute truth? No wiggle room? One can never use a Tkinter program with IDLE, and execute it successfully. So IDLE doesn't issue a standard warning that says, Get out of here with your Tkinter program, it will fail when you try to run it here. You have entered Tkinter hell. Good-bye. -- W. eWatson (121.015 Deg. W, 39.262 Deg. N) GMT-8 hr std. time) Obz Site: 39° 15' 7 N, 121° 2' 32 W, 2700 feet Web Page: www.speckledwithstars.net/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Untangling pythonWin and IDLE Processes on XP Pro
W. eWatson wrote: From Diez above. What does *NOT* work is writing a Tkinter-based app in idle, and to run it *FROM INSIDE* idle. Instead, open your explorer and double-click on the pyhton-file your app is in. That's all that there is to it. So this is the absolute truth? No wiggle room? One can never use a Tkinter program with IDLE, and execute it successfully. So IDLE doesn't issue a standard warning that says, Get out of here with your Tkinter program, it will fail when you try to run it here. You have entered Tkinter hell. Good-bye. Re-read my post about kids fighting to control a television. Maybe they work together, maybe they crash the TV. Hard to predict. ***ANY*** Python program that tries to grab and control the same resources that TK does may conflict with it. There is no way that IDLE can have a list of, for instance, all event-grabbing mainloop programs. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
