[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Impressive, Craig. Man, you keep that sweet baby ready-to-go. All packed, just let go the toe-strap & you out the door in search of some tumbleweed to camp under. BEST / Jock Dewey / Athens, GA On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:07:41 PM UTC-4, Craig Montgomery wrote: > > *My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel > that way with large of range of tire quality whereas a frame that isn't > so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate > for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes. * > > Bingo! That's the epiphany. And that's the case for handbuilt frames > by master builders; AND looking for vintage frames built by master > builders. You have,Garth ol' boy, a full-on old school touring frame of the > highest order (in materials and craftsmanship) built by someone who knew > what they were doing. That's why it rides the way it does, on the tires > (which don't matter that much overall) you choose for it. > Nobody I know of makes these things anymore except for a few of the > remaining old English companies like Mercian or Ellis Briggs or one offers > like Kevin Sayles. Or in France, the Alex Singer shop. Back in those days > (1999? THOSE days? Gimme a break!...sorry) about the only tires available > were 27x1 1/4" or 1 3/8" or 700x32's or maybe 35's (we're talking touring > now...not toodling around on pavement in urban environments). So the frame > had to be so masterfully built that it would allow the bike tourist to hit > rough pavement and dirt roads without him being bludgeoned to death. > Without having his gonads ground into cottage cheese. > Hence, our bikes Garth: > Here's my '99 Jack Taylor Tourist (essentially an unchanged design > since the 40's). Almost but not quite the spittin' image of yours. > 72STA/72.5HTA with a fork rake that ends somewhere just outside of China. > These were standard touring designs for decades. Loaded or unloaded, when > you hit the rough stuff with a bike like this, it was like jumping onto a > very lusciously firm water bed (Oh gawd I'm dating myself again). Don't get > me wrong, I really like my Black Mountain Monster Cross with its light > tubing and fat Gravel Kings. But at the end of a long rough ride (esp. > loaded touring) it doesn't leave me feeling as "refreshed" as the > traditional Taylor on it's 700x35 Paselas. > > "*I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires > would find it blissful!" *We should have been living in England or > France 60 or 70 years ago when this was common knowledge. > > Craig "Old and In the Way"(Tony Rice/Jerry Garcia-1973) in Tucson > > On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 2:01:01 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: >> >> Yeah Ted it seems I do prefer frames that have some flex in the right >> places. The 531ST tubes are intended for touring, slightly thicker wall >> diameter than the regular 531. OF course I know nothing of designing bikes, >> but thankfully the designer/builder does and he would not do something he >> wasn't comfortable with. Tall head tube, yes, I've seen taller ! Fork flex >> is in the blades. >> >> In regards to the tubing, 531 seems to have a kind of PFM status... pure >> f'n magic for their ride characteristics. >> >> https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cycling-article-blog/87-reynolds-531-tubing-the-cycle-tourists-friend >> >> My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel >> that way with large of range of tire quality whereas a frame that isn't >> so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate >> for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes. >> >> I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires would >> find it blissful ! >> >> At 165lbs or so I would have to go really low on the Bomba to get a pinch >> flat as I naturally ride "light" over things. I have Big Ben 50 on there >> now @25-30 psi. I'll try lowering them off the pavement and see how it >> goes. As for other tires man it's like pie in the sky. They all look >> good from afar ! Ahahaha ! >> >> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b9a0101b-eda3-48cf-a7b0-a9b56d913a5fo%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Super Tourist tubing or not, no doubt that long TT enhances the flex-magic for your 165-lb, long torso-ed body geo. nice ride! On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 2:01:01 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: > > Yeah Ted it seems I do prefer frames that have some flex in the right > places. The 531ST tubes are intended for touring, slightly thicker wall > diameter than the regular 531. OF course I know nothing of designing bikes, > but thankfully the designer/builder does and he would not do something he > wasn't comfortable with. Tall head tube, yes, I've seen taller ! Fork flex > is in the blades. > > In regards to the tubing, 531 seems to have a kind of PFM status... pure > f'n magic for their ride characteristics. > > https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cycling-article-blog/87-reynolds-531-tubing-the-cycle-tourists-friend > > My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel > that way with large of range of tire quality whereas a frame that isn't > so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate > for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes. > > I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires would > find it blissful ! > > At 165lbs or so I would have to go really low on the Bomba to get a pinch > flat as I naturally ride "light" over things. I have Big Ben 50 on there > now @25-30 psi. I'll try lowering them off the pavement and see how it > goes. As for other tires man it's like pie in the sky. They all look > good from afar ! Ahahaha ! > > In regards to George's mishap, I've heard him account what happened a > couple of times and what failed was the Trek frames carbon steering tube. > He was trying to land softly to the left when it was happening but since > the failure happened so fast he was a mere passenger. This was the early > days of carbon frame construction. > > > > On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:15:53 PM UTC-4, ted wrote: >> >> My Bombadil has Pacenti Quasi-Moto tires. I would think any non uber >> stout 2 inch tire would behave much the same in this respect. >> I have another more roadish bike with 47mm tires (wtb byway) I run at >> ~25psi when I want things cushy. That one does fairly well off road as well. >> Keep in mind at 20 psi, 2 psi is 10%. Do the fat bike crowd run pressures >> down in the single digits? >> My rules of thumb are: >>If your tires aren't soaking up bumps the way you want, lower the >> pressure, then lower it some more until they are. (too low may not be low >> enough) >>If you start getting pinch flats in the process, get bigger tires. >> (got the first classic pinch flat of my life yesterday, guess I should try >> 28mm tires on that bike) >>If you feel like your tires have too much rolling resistance, shop for >> more supple tires. >> I think that approach can produce satisfactory results for a lot of folks >> without going beyond 28-33 mm tires. Despite the current popularity of >> "wider is better" and asking "how wide is too wide?" there can be wisdom in >> asking "how wide is wide enough?". >> Typically it seems like tires are so much more compliant than even "std. >> diameter" thin wall tubing, that softer tires dominate wrt vertical >> compliance. Sounds like for you, not so much. First time for everything I >> suppose. >> I expect you are aware there are folks who only like more flexible extra >> thin walled "standard" diameter tubed frames. Perhaps you do too. It's good >> to know what one likes. >> I hope the stress levels in your fork blades are well below the fatigue >> limit for steel. Also that's a tall head tube, perhaps some of the flex in >> your fork is in the steerer tube? >> Have you seen the video of Hincapie in Paris Roubaix sitting bolt upright >> with his disconnected bars in his hand as he veered into the ditch and >> separated his shoulder? >> >> I think the handling of my Bombadil is somewhat different than my other >> bikes, I like it a lot for riding the hills in my local open spaces. Prefer >> other bikes for riding on roads though. >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/69e45144-2bca-466f-b869-6d92f650c7f6o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Well thank you Craig for your input. Like riding on water ! I remember Bruce Lee saying "be like water" of which there is neither offense or defense as such is Life ! I find it a relief realizing this about the frames. To start there with a frame suited to one's own sensibilities of what riding is all about. The Truth is never late. Also I realize how much I like road bike parts as mtb parts have gone off the reservation never to return, so to speak. You know I really do love riding through the rolling countryside here in Ohio, especially around the farms with massive green pastures and the indescribably fresh air that we have around here. I really feel at home in the countryside. Call it Ohio, England, Minnesota ahahahha ... it's all the same to me perfect is perfect. Jack Trumbull the builder/owner of his brand Franklin frames is still there and I've contemplated having him build me another frame. Now that I've realized some oops and umms of details I wasn't aware of back then, it's new frame day ! I'm pretty sure he still uses some Reynolds tubing, whatever is available. I like him as he's rather no frills. He repairs any brand of steel frame and does his own painting. I don't know what I'll do about the Susie but it'll work out in some wonderful way. On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 8:07:41 PM UTC-4, Craig Montgomery wrote: > > *My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel > that way with large of range of tire quality whereas a frame that isn't > so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate > for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes. * > > Bingo! That's the epiphany. And that's the case for handbuilt frames > by master builders; AND looking for vintage frames built by master > builders. You have,Garth ol' boy, a full-on old school touring frame of the > highest order (in materials and craftsmanship) built by someone who knew > what they were doing. That's why it rides the way it does, on the tires > (which don't matter that much overall) you choose for it. > Nobody I know of makes these things anymore except for a few of the > remaining old English companies like Mercian or Ellis Briggs or one offers > like Kevin Sayles. Or in France, the Alex Singer shop. Back in those days > (1999? THOSE days? Gimme a break!...sorry) about the only tires available > were 27x1 1/4" or 1 3/8" or 700x32's or maybe 35's (we're talking touring > now...not toodling around on pavement in urban environments). So the frame > had to be so masterfully built that it would allow the bike tourist to hit > rough pavement and dirt roads without him being bludgeoned to death. > Without having his gonads ground into cottage cheese. > Hence, our bikes Garth: > Here's my '99 Jack Taylor Tourist (essentially an unchanged design > since the 40's). Almost but not quite the spittin' image of yours. > 72STA/72.5HTA with a fork rake that ends somewhere just outside of China. > These were standard touring designs for decades. Loaded or unloaded, when > you hit the rough stuff with a bike like this, it was like jumping onto a > very lusciously firm water bed (Oh gawd I'm dating myself again). Don't get > me wrong, I really like my Black Mountain Monster Cross with its light > tubing and fat Gravel Kings. But at the end of a long rough ride (esp. > loaded touring) it doesn't leave me feeling as "refreshed" as the > traditional Taylor on it's 700x35 Paselas. > > "*I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires > would find it blissful!" *We should have been living in England or > France 60 or 70 years ago when this was common knowledge. > > Craig "Old and In the Way"(Tony Rice/Jerry Garcia-1973) in Tucson > > On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 2:01:01 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: >> >> Yeah Ted it seems I do prefer frames that have some flex in the right >> places. The 531ST tubes are intended for touring, slightly thicker wall >> diameter than the regular 531. OF course I know nothing of designing bikes, >> but thankfully the designer/builder does and he would not do something he >> wasn't comfortable with. Tall head tube, yes, I've seen taller ! Fork flex >> is in the blades. >> >> In regards to the tubing, 531 seems to have a kind of PFM status... pure >> f'n magic for their ride characteristics. >> >> https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cycling-article-blog/87-reynolds-531-tubing-the-cycle-tourists-friend >> >> My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel >> that way with large of range of tire quality whereas a frame that isn't >> so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate >> for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes. >> >> I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires would >> find it blissful ! >> >> At 165lbs or so I would have to go really low on the
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Even with the same tubing and geo, a different size frame will have different characteristics as far as liveliness. I bought a Woodrup Giro for a tour of Tuscany a dozen or so years ago, all 531ST. One of the few bikes I ever actively disliked, felt sluggish and dead. But it was a 57cm frame, so naturally going to be stiffer. And the tubes are quite a bit thicker, with typical 531 tubeset of the day having a top tube with a .8 belly, and ST 1.0. On the other hand, my 531 Ron Kitching is a superb rider. And is getting a long-awaited, well-deserved rebuild...soon. It will be fun! On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 5:01:01 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote: > > Yeah Ted it seems I do prefer frames that have some flex in the right > places. The 531ST tubes are intended for touring, slightly thicker wall > diameter than the regular 531. OF course I know nothing of designing bikes, > but thankfully the designer/builder does and he would not do something he > wasn't comfortable with. Tall head tube, yes, I've seen taller ! Fork flex > is in the blades. > > In regards to the tubing, 531 seems to have a kind of PFM status... pure > f'n magic for their ride characteristics. > > https://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cycling-article-blog/87-reynolds-531-tubing-the-cycle-tourists-friend > > My takeaway from all this is that in this case a "lively" frame will feel > that way with large of range of tire quality whereas a frame that isn't > so lively, even with specifically "supple" tires isn't going to compensate > for it's not so liveliness. Improve the ride, yes. > > I can see how those that have both a lively frame and supple tires would > find it blissful ! > > At 165lbs or so I would have to go really low on the Bomba to get a pinch > flat as I naturally ride "light" over things. I have Big Ben 50 on there > now @25-30 psi. I'll try lowering them off the pavement and see how it > goes. As for other tires man it's like pie in the sky. They all look > good from afar ! Ahahaha ! > > In regards to George's mishap, I've heard him account what happened a > couple of times and what failed was the Trek frames carbon steering tube. > He was trying to land softly to the left when it was happening but since > the failure happened so fast he was a mere passenger. This was the early > days of carbon frame construction. > > > > On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:15:53 PM UTC-4, ted wrote: >> >> My Bombadil has Pacenti Quasi-Moto tires. I would think any non uber >> stout 2 inch tire would behave much the same in this respect. >> I have another more roadish bike with 47mm tires (wtb byway) I run at >> ~25psi when I want things cushy. That one does fairly well off road as well. >> Keep in mind at 20 psi, 2 psi is 10%. Do the fat bike crowd run pressures >> down in the single digits? >> My rules of thumb are: >>If your tires aren't soaking up bumps the way you want, lower the >> pressure, then lower it some more until they are. (too low may not be low >> enough) >>If you start getting pinch flats in the process, get bigger tires. >> (got the first classic pinch flat of my life yesterday, guess I should try >> 28mm tires on that bike) >>If you feel like your tires have too much rolling resistance, shop for >> more supple tires. >> I think that approach can produce satisfactory results for a lot of folks >> without going beyond 28-33 mm tires. Despite the current popularity of >> "wider is better" and asking "how wide is too wide?" there can be wisdom in >> asking "how wide is wide enough?". >> Typically it seems like tires are so much more compliant than even "std. >> diameter" thin wall tubing, that softer tires dominate wrt vertical >> compliance. Sounds like for you, not so much. First time for everything I >> suppose. >> I expect you are aware there are folks who only like more flexible extra >> thin walled "standard" diameter tubed frames. Perhaps you do too. It's good >> to know what one likes. >> I hope the stress levels in your fork blades are well below the fatigue >> limit for steel. Also that's a tall head tube, perhaps some of the flex in >> your fork is in the steerer tube? >> Have you seen the video of Hincapie in Paris Roubaix sitting bolt upright >> with his disconnected bars in his hand as he veered into the ditch and >> separated his shoulder? >> >> I think the handling of my Bombadil is somewhat different than my other >> bikes, I like it a lot for riding the hills in my local open spaces. Prefer >> other bikes for riding on roads though. >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/744ff5e0-183f-4dc1-96de-ca42b15e0deeo%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Garth, I'm not qualified to address the "springiness" factor of the Susie from one trip around the building, but it was definitely floaty and fun! Fat tires do neat stuff, too. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9221edcb-57ab-478d-9e14-af81fbee1190o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
I agree Jason . such Omniscience is "not my department" so to speak ! I'm "hoping" that the much longer stays and front end of the Susie exhibits some sort of magic carpet float. It should in "theory" but yeah they said the same thing about the Titanic and icebergs didn't they ! On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 2:05:34 PM UTC-4, Jason Fuller wrote: > > Funny, I've been wondering the same sort of thing with my Hillborne. In > the dozens of bikes I've owned over the years, none have had this magical > ability to just gingerly float over everything like the Hillborne. I had > the exact same build (incl wheels and tires) on a Soma Grand Randonneur > previous to the Sam, and while that bike rode nicely, it did not have this > quality. My Clem, despite much larger tires, does not have this > quality--and both have nearly identical CS lengths (455 vs. 460). > > The only thing left that it could be are the seat stays, but it's hard to > imagine that they're doing this much. It has to be a culmination of a bunch > of small contributors, I expect. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a34be46e-9d44-40c9-bc08-09159cdbe516o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Funny, I've been wondering the same sort of thing with my Hillborne. In the dozens of bikes I've owned over the years, none have had this magical ability to just gingerly float over everything like the Hillborne. I had the exact same build (incl wheels and tires) on a Soma Grand Randonneur previous to the Sam, and while that bike rode nicely, it did not have this quality. My Clem, despite much larger tires, does not have this quality--and both have nearly identical CS lengths (455 vs. 460). The only thing left that it could be are the seat stays, but it's hard to imagine that they're doing this much. It has to be a culmination of a bunch of small contributors, I expect. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/bb4ac02d-7f15-442d-8aca-4f7e003d7d60o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
My Bombadil has Pacenti Quasi-Moto tires. I would think any non uber stout 2 inch tire would behave much the same in this respect. I have another more roadish bike with 47mm tires (wtb byway) I run at ~25psi when I want things cushy. That one does fairly well off road as well. Keep in mind at 20 psi, 2 psi is 10%. Do the fat bike crowd run pressures down in the single digits? My rules of thumb are: If your tires aren't soaking up bumps the way you want, lower the pressure, then lower it some more until they are. (too low may not be low enough) If you start getting pinch flats in the process, get bigger tires. (got the first classic pinch flat of my life yesterday, guess I should try 28mm tires on that bike) If you feel like your tires have too much rolling resistance, shop for more supple tires. I think that approach can produce satisfactory results for a lot of folks without going beyond 28-33 mm tires. Despite the current popularity of "wider is better" and asking "how wide is too wide?" there can be wisdom in asking "how wide is wide enough?". Typically it seems like tires are so much more compliant than even "std. diameter" thin wall tubing, that softer tires dominate wrt vertical compliance. Sounds like for you, not so much. First time for everything I suppose. I expect you are aware there are folks who only like more flexible extra thin walled "standard" diameter tubed frames. Perhaps you do too. It's good to know what one likes. I hope the stress levels in your fork blades are well below the fatigue limit for steel. Also that's a tall head tube, perhaps some of the flex in your fork is in the steerer tube? Have you seen the video of Hincapie in Paris Roubaix sitting bolt upright with his disconnected bars in his hand as he veered into the ditch and separated his shoulder? I think the handling of my Bombadil is somewhat different than my other bikes, I like it a lot for riding the hills in my local open spaces. Prefer other bikes for riding on roads though. On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 4:24:23 AM UTC-7, Garth wrote: > > What are your 50mm tires Ted ? It seems pressure does play a large role > in all this ! > > > On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 12:52:31 AM UTC-4, ted wrote: >> >> Love my road bikes, also love my Bombadil. >> >> Logged lots of miles on ~21 or 22mm tubulars, was on 26mm tires today. >> Yep, ride great. Probably wouldn't choose them for riding over the ridge in >> my local open space though. >> >> Yes wide tires are just wider, well wider and taller. The wider tends to >> mean they sink in less on soft surfaces. That can be a good thing or a bad >> thing. The taller helps to avoid pinch flats at lower pressures. They also >> need lower pressure to give the same spring rate. At 20 psi the 50mm tires >> on my Bombadil are quite compliant. At 30 not so much. But at 20 psi short >> of going fast over bad deep dried out bovine hoof prints i'd never >> characterize its ride as "jarring as heck". Clearly your millage differs >> though. >> >> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: >>> >>> >>> I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a >>> whole lot lately. man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made >>> with a 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars >>> from Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and >>> Sachs 7sp. 13-32 freewheel. >>> >>> speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this >>> bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel >>> roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 >>> and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure >>> is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for >>> me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out >>> backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and >>> effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun >>> ! >>> >>> I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's >>> design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet >>> received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie >>> is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly >>> frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have >>> another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ? >>> >>> Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I >>> love narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. >>> I rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are >>> what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which >>> were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets >>> lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Yea Mark like ye' ol' rabbit hole ... and the irresistible temptation to take a peek, "what's in the box ?"... and then you find yourself sucked in it. Until . well until you don't ! On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 6:38:54 AM UTC-4, Mark Roland wrote: > > Lots of variables to consider--frame geometries and tubing/layups, tire > width, construction, pressures; rider style and weight; terrain and road > conditions; position of the planets, and so on. > > I like wide mostly these days, but getting on some skinny rubber is fun, > and it's about the difference. You can't appreciate one without the other, > and they are both fun--all the tens of thousands of people riding on 25mm > tires can't be in that much pain! > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cbc0b82c-1081-43f7-af77-f90ea4bcb490o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Yes ...nothing to do with tires on this frame... I've had Specialized Armadillo(aptly maned as they were stiff !) tires on it way back and even then the ride was good. t seems starting with suitable tubing and design has more to do with the ride than simply wheels alone. I posted the geo and stuff below. On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 4:16:26 AM UTC-4, Craig Montgomery wrote: > > Garth, I'd like to know the geometry on your Franklin with 531ST. And a > photo. Then I'll tell you of my epiphany (similar to yours I think). > Nothing to do with tires. > > Craig in Tucson > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a299ec69-3613-4711-8bbd-0f2ef84cec69o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Yes Philip .. sharp is a good word like a sharp .5mm mechanical pencil in contrast to a magic marker ! On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 1:23:29 AM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote: > > I’ve recently built up two bikes with road-sized (26mm-ish) tires, and I > love them. A Bontrager RoadLite 1x11, and a Pinarello cross bike set up as > a flat bar singlespeed. So fun and sharp! > > Philip > SantaRosa, CA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9242e6da-ac82-43ee-8baf-9d392b146431o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
What are your 50mm tires Ted ? It seems pressure does play a large role in all this ! On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 12:52:31 AM UTC-4, ted wrote: > > Love my road bikes, also love my Bombadil. > > Logged lots of miles on ~21 or 22mm tubulars, was on 26mm tires today. > Yep, ride great. Probably wouldn't choose them for riding over the ridge in > my local open space though. > > Yes wide tires are just wider, well wider and taller. The wider tends to > mean they sink in less on soft surfaces. That can be a good thing or a bad > thing. The taller helps to avoid pinch flats at lower pressures. They also > need lower pressure to give the same spring rate. At 20 psi the 50mm tires > on my Bombadil are quite compliant. At 30 not so much. But at 20 psi short > of going fast over bad deep dried out bovine hoof prints i'd never > characterize its ride as "jarring as heck". Clearly your millage differs > though. > > On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: >> >> >> I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a whole >> lot lately. man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made with a >> 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars from >> Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and Sachs >> 7sp. 13-32 freewheel. >> >> speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this >> bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel >> roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 >> and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure >> is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for >> me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out >> backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and >> effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun >> ! >> >> I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's >> design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet >> received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie >> is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly >> frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have >> another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ? >> >> Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I love >> narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. I >> rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are >> what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which >> were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets >> lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've ridden. I've tried some wider >> tires on my road bike and it just felt odd. It seems pretty obvious to me >> that a frame that is quite compliant doesn't need overly wide tires to ride >> "soft" and cushy. >> >> Then there's the simplicity of double crank and the ease of which to >> throw on various parts. I also had cantilevers put on the frame and use >> Suntour XC Pro's, and they are outstanding, I've never had such a effective >> brake. It's also darn light to me, even with the heavy duty Phil/Mavic >> wheels that are on it. >> >> Hooray for road-tire bikes ! >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b34ad58d-f80b-497b-af5a-4d58affeeac3o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Like you DP, a jittery ride, for lack of an all encompassing term, just doesn't work for me either. That's likely why I've preferred road riding so much as I've never had a suitable frame or maybe tires for that matter for my local not-so-maintained township "roads". I'm going to try out some new tires if I can ever decide on some. On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 7:25:03 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote: > > I am constantly amazed how my QB with RH Stellacomb knobbies is nearly as > plush a ride as my Hunqapillar (with liteskin Schwalbe 2.1" Racing Ralphs) > and GBW with 2.8" Nobby Niks. Fork flex is a huge part of this. Viewing the > Hunqapillar as parallel to your Bomba, I don't like any tires but the > liteskin on it ... not a supple ride. > > With abandon, > Patrick > > On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 5:10:41 PM UTC-6, Garth wrote: >> >> >> I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a whole >> lot lately. man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made with a >> 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars from >> Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and Sachs >> 7sp. 13-32 freewheel. >> >> speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this >> bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel >> roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 >> and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure >> is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for >> me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out >> backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and >> effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun >> ! >> >> I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's >> design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet >> received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie >> is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly >> frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have >> another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ? >> >> Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I love >> narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. I >> rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are >> what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which >> were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets >> lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've ridden. I've tried some wider >> tires on my road bike and it just felt odd. It seems pretty obvious to me >> that a frame that is quite compliant doesn't need overly wide tires to ride >> "soft" and cushy. >> >> Then there's the simplicity of double crank and the ease of which to >> throw on various parts. I also had cantilevers put on the frame and use >> Suntour XC Pro's, and they are outstanding, I've never had such a effective >> brake. It's also darn light to me, even with the heavy duty Phil/Mavic >> wheels that are on it. >> >> Hooray for road-tire bikes ! >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ee54665c-3882-409c-9c49-8b0de5068db8o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
You rode a Susie too at RBWHQ, yes ? Was it at least somewhat vertically compliant, springy, flexy ... you know there's a million names for it I suppose ! On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 7:21:47 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote: > > I had a Roadini for a while with 33mm Jack Brown's, and a Seven ti frame > with 28 something-or-others. They were great fun in a particular way > fatter-tire bikes can't duplicate. I wouldn't pick that vibe as my only > bike, but I like em! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/f8ebc8d6-679b-46be-8d0f-8a5dbc6a47a2o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Lots of variables to consider--frame geometries and tubing/layups, tire width, construction, pressures; rider style and weight; terrain and road conditions; position of the planets, and so on. I like wide mostly these days, but getting on some skinny rubber is fun, and it's about the difference. You can't appreciate one without the other, and they are both fun--all the tens of thousands of people riding on 25mm tires can't be in that much pain! On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 7:10:41 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote: > > > I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a whole > lot lately. man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made with a > 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars from > Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and Sachs > 7sp. 13-32 freewheel. > > speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this > bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel > roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 > and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure > is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for > me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out > backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and > effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun > ! > > I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's > design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet > received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie > is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly > frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have > another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ? > > Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I love > narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. I > rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are > what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which > were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets > lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've ridden. I've tried some wider > tires on my road bike and it just felt odd. It seems pretty obvious to me > that a frame that is quite compliant doesn't need overly wide tires to ride > "soft" and cushy. > > Then there's the simplicity of double crank and the ease of which to throw > on various parts. I also had cantilevers put on the frame and use Suntour > XC Pro's, and they are outstanding, I've never had such a effective brake. > It's also darn light to me, even with the heavy duty Phil/Mavic wheels that > are on it. > > Hooray for road-tire bikes ! > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/e05eca4b-ef98-4491-93fd-b6a3187b9f18o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Garth, I'd like to know the geometry on your Franklin with 531ST. And a photo. Then I'll tell you of my epiphany (similar to yours I think). Nothing to do with tires. Craig in Tucson On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: > > > I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a whole > lot lately. man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made with a > 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars from > Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and Sachs > 7sp. 13-32 freewheel. > > speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this > bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel > roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 > and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure > is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for > me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out > backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and > effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun > ! > > I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's > design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet > received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie > is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly > frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have > another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ? > > Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I love > narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. I > rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are > what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which > were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets > lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've ridden. I've tried some wider > tires on my road bike and it just felt odd. It seems pretty obvious to me > that a frame that is quite compliant doesn't need overly wide tires to ride > "soft" and cushy. > > Then there's the simplicity of double crank and the ease of which to throw > on various parts. I also had cantilevers put on the frame and use Suntour > XC Pro's, and they are outstanding, I've never had such a effective brake. > It's also darn light to me, even with the heavy duty Phil/Mavic wheels that > are on it. > > Hooray for road-tire bikes ! > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/49ff-7c08-4659-838b-6c84d131f16ao%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
Love my road bikes, also love my Bombadil. Logged lots of miles on ~21 or 22mm tubulars, was on 26mm tires today. Yep, ride great. Probably wouldn't choose them for riding over the ridge in my local open space though. Yes wide tires are just wider, well wider and taller. The wider tends to mean they sink in less on soft surfaces. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. The taller helps to avoid pinch flats at lower pressures. They also need lower pressure to give the same spring rate. At 20 psi the 50mm tires on my Bombadil are quite compliant. At 30 not so much. But at 20 psi short of going fast over bad deep dried out bovine hoof prints i'd never characterize its ride as "jarring as heck". Clearly your millage differs though. On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: > > > I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a whole > lot lately. man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made with a > 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars from > Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and Sachs > 7sp. 13-32 freewheel. > > speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this > bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel > roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 > and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure > is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for > me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out > backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and > effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun > ! > > I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's > design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet > received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie > is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly > frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have > another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ? > > Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I love > narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. I > rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are > what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which > were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets > lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've ridden. I've tried some wider > tires on my road bike and it just felt odd. It seems pretty obvious to me > that a frame that is quite compliant doesn't need overly wide tires to ride > "soft" and cushy. > > Then there's the simplicity of double crank and the ease of which to throw > on various parts. I also had cantilevers put on the frame and use Suntour > XC Pro's, and they are outstanding, I've never had such a effective brake. > It's also darn light to me, even with the heavy duty Phil/Mavic wheels that > are on it. > > Hooray for road-tire bikes ! > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8ecbb34b-8f67-44fc-a048-badf42872dcdo%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: In Praise of Road Bikes with Road Tires
I am constantly amazed how my QB with RH Stellacomb knobbies is nearly as plush a ride as my Hunqapillar (with liteskin Schwalbe 2.1" Racing Ralphs) and GBW with 2.8" Nobby Niks. Fork flex is a huge part of this. Viewing the Hunqapillar as parallel to your Bomba, I don't like any tires but the liteskin on it ... not a supple ride. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 5:10:41 PM UTC-6, Garth wrote: > > > I've been riding my Franklin Reynolds 531ST custom from from '99 a whole > lot lately. man I like that bike. I had the 62 c-c frame made with a > 62cm TT and 46cm chainstays. I originally used the Dirt Drop bars from > Nitto but now use an Albatross 56cm steel. 36/46 Origin8 crank and Sachs > 7sp. 13-32 freewheel. > > speaking of big tires and all ... well riddle me this Batman how this > bike literally just floats over patch paved and cruddy washed out gravel > roads with not so fancy 33mm Forte Metro ST tires that were about $15 > and my Bombadil regardless of the tires I've used even at very low pressure > is jarring as heck ? Exact same wheels builds on both. It's also easier for > me to maintain my line and speed with the road bike up steep washed out > backwoods gravel roads also, corrections are wholly intuitive and > effortless. Watching the fork flex like crazy over bumpy roads is also fun > ! > > I could only "guess" it has a whole lot to do with the tubing and it's > design I suppose. Regardless, it's great and even though I've not yet > received my Suzie it has me rethinking the whole thing. I "hope" the Susie > is a whole lot more vertically resilient than the Bomba. But those Hilly > frames are a once in a lifetime "try" for me though. If not, I'll have > another road kinda bike made. Does Reynolds even make 531 anymore ? > > Also, a wider tire is just wider, not necessarily better or worse. I love > narrow tires as I grew up riding them so it's quite intuitive for me. I > rode many a pairs of Specialized Touring Turbo 27x 1/8 or 1/4. Those are > what I knew as "road tires" even before I got into road racing tires which > were even narrower. There is such a distinct feel, a precision that gets > lost in wider tires from all the bikes I've ridden. I've tried some wider > tires on my road bike and it just felt odd. It seems pretty obvious to me > that a frame that is quite compliant doesn't need overly wide tires to ride > "soft" and cushy. > > Then there's the simplicity of double crank and the ease of which to throw > on various parts. I also had cantilevers put on the frame and use Suntour > XC Pro's, and they are outstanding, I've never had such a effective brake. > It's also darn light to me, even with the heavy duty Phil/Mavic wheels that > are on it. > > Hooray for road-tire bikes ! > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4a9e7222-e54f-4abe-91fd-426d964bd40ao%40googlegroups.com.
