Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I give up. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 12:23 PM, cm chrispmur...@hotmail.com wrote: I think there are too many unknowns here. All we get to do is look at the finished frame and speculate as to the quality we cant see. We don't get to see the tubes being mitered, prepped, brazed or anything else until it is done. We don't know the brazers or the amount of time they spend on each frame. I have no idea if the brazers at Toyo are as good as the brazers at Waterford and how those compare to the Maxway guys. Does anyone besides GP? So I take Riv's word that they are all good. Sure my Bleriot is not as fancy as my wife's Ram but there is no quality difference I can see and I have inspected the both pretty closely. Are the lugs less fancy? Is the paint not quite as nicely done? Yes and yes but I dont see those as quality differences in terms of how well the bike is built. I do feel like there is value in buying US made things, but after that it doesnt matter to me if they are made in Japan or Taiwan. I think that someone in Taiwan can braze just as well as someone in Japan who can braze just as well as someone in the US. I think Rivendell oversold the fact that their frames were made at Toyo and are having to overcome the idea that frames from other places (excluding Waterfrod/US) are inferior. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Perspective. I was born in the UK, grew up in Missouri, lived half of my life in California, now in Texas. Sometimes Texas acts like it is/wants to be a separate country. Toyota Tundras are advertised as Made in Texas, by Texans, for Texans. Am I a member of the Texas group? Am I a member of the USA group? Am I a member of the North America group? Am I a member of the Earth group? I'm not suggesting one perspective is better or worse than another, I guess our perspective depends upon where we want to draw the line between them and us. Angus On Jan 28, 5:04 am, zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: How so my friend? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 03:02:19 To: RBW Owners Bunchrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective. Angus On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Tundra is a perfect example. 76% US made content. If you are a citizen and pay taxes you are obviously earth group first followed by: 1. USA 2. Texas 3. North America. Texas is the best state in the union IMHO. Us and Them is pretty difficult to define in today's world. That would go way OT but it's agreat concept to ponder whilst riding one's Riv down a long, lonely country rode (shameless Riv tie-in there). On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Perspective. I was born in the UK, grew up in Missouri, lived half of my life in California, now in Texas. Sometimes Texas acts like it is/wants to be a separate country. Toyota Tundras are advertised as Made in Texas, by Texans, for Texans. Am I a member of the Texas group? Am I a member of the USA group? Am I a member of the North America group? Am I a member of the Earth group? I'm not suggesting one perspective is better or worse than another, I guess our perspective depends upon where we want to draw the line between them and us. Angus On Jan 28, 5:04 am, zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: How so my friend? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 03:02:19 To: RBW Owners Bunchrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective. Angus On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
This is such a good discussion, because it points out that Grant P. is looking out for his customers. If someone asked me, which builder would you rather have -- Waterford or Toyo? -- I'd say, sure. It's nice that Waterford is U.S.-based, but I look at it as supporting Rivendell first, and I'll let Grant decide which builders to patron. I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot, but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely painted, but it was much less expensive. I used the savings to help offset the cost of couplers and a repaint to a different color. I'm now a fan, generally, of Maxway for less-expensive bikes. I believe my Rawland dSogn was built there and it's just great. Ed Felker On Jan 22, 11:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
On Sat, 2011-01-29 at 06:18 -0800, eddie...@gmail.com wrote: I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot, but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely painted, but it was much less expensive. I used the savings to help offset the cost of couplers and a repaint to a different color. I'm now a fan, generally, of Maxway for less-expensive bikes. I believe my Rawland dSogn was built there and it's just great. That's a common observation - the Kogswell frames are nicely built in the areas that matter, too - and the reason why the casual comment about Taiwan manufacture and problems attracted such notice. I like beautiful expensive custom frames as much as anyone does, but I also think there's a lot to be said for inexpensive but well built working class frames. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I think Toyo was a second choice because Waterford either couldn't or wouldn't keep up with demand. And that kind of makes my point. Maybe he'll (GP) browse this and weigh in real the actual story. I'm also pretty sure Chris @ VO made attempts to get stuff made here but it didn't work out. Again, maybe he'll comment. RGZ On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:18 AM, eddie...@gmail.com eddie...@gmail.com wrote: This is such a good discussion, because it points out that Grant P. is looking out for his customers. If someone asked me, which builder would you rather have -- Waterford or Toyo? -- I'd say, sure. It's nice that Waterford is U.S.-based, but I look at it as supporting Rivendell first, and I'll let Grant decide which builders to patron. I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot, but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely painted, but it was much less expensive. I used the savings to help offset the cost of couplers and a repaint to a different color. I'm now a fan, generally, of Maxway for less-expensive bikes. I believe my Rawland dSogn was built there and it's just great. Ed Felker On Jan 22, 11:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
But I'm pretty sure your first sentence below is false. I remember the development of the Atlantis, and Grant's discussions in the readers talking about going with Toyo to build it exclusively (same thing later with Rambouillet). I'm pretty sure the establishment of Toyo as the builder had nothing to do with the reason you give in the first sentence below; I also saw no evidence that Waterford was ever involved with the making of those bikes for the Atlantis's first eight years at least. However, don't take my word for it, because I might not have all the details. Read the old readers, or ask Grant or someone at Rivendell directly, if you're interested in knowing how Toyo came into the picture. -Jim W. On Jan 29, 2011, at 7:04 AM, robert zeidler wrote: I think Toyo was a second choice because Waterford either couldn't or wouldn't keep up with demand. And that kind of makes my point. Maybe he'll (GP) browse this and weigh in real the actual story. I'm also pretty sure Chris @ VO made attempts to get stuff made here but it didn't work out. Again, maybe he'll comment. RGZ On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:18 AM, eddie...@gmail.com eddie...@gmail.com wrote: This is such a good discussion, because it points out that Grant P. is looking out for his customers. If someone asked me, which builder would you rather have -- Waterford or Toyo? -- I'd say, sure. It's nice that Waterford is U.S.-based, but I look at it as supporting Rivendell first, and I'll let Grant decide which builders to patron. I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot, but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely painted, but it was much less expensive. I used the savings to help offset the cost of couplers and a repaint to a different color. I'm now a fan, generally, of Maxway for less-expensive bikes. I believe my Rawland dSogn was built there and it's just great. Ed Felker On Jan 22, 11:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
...and I might be mistaken also. A million apologies if that's the case. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 10:22 AM, James Warren jimcwar...@earthlink.net wrote: But I'm pretty sure your first sentence below is false. I remember the development of the Atlantis, and Grant's discussions in the readers talking about going with Toyo to build it exclusively (same thing later with Rambouillet). I'm pretty sure the establishment of Toyo as the builder had nothing to do with the reason you give in the first sentence below; I also saw no evidence that Waterford was ever involved with the making of those bikes for the Atlantis's first eight years at least. However, don't take my word for it, because I might not have all the details. Read the old readers, or ask Grant or someone at Rivendell directly, if you're interested in knowing how Toyo came into the picture. -Jim W. On Jan 29, 2011, at 7:04 AM, robert zeidler wrote: I think Toyo was a second choice because Waterford either couldn't or wouldn't keep up with demand. And that kind of makes my point. Maybe he'll (GP) browse this and weigh in real the actual story. I'm also pretty sure Chris @ VO made attempts to get stuff made here but it didn't work out. Again, maybe he'll comment. RGZ On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:18 AM, eddie...@gmail.com eddie...@gmail.com wrote: This is such a good discussion, because it points out that Grant P. is looking out for his customers. If someone asked me, which builder would you rather have -- Waterford or Toyo? -- I'd say, sure. It's nice that Waterford is U.S.-based, but I look at it as supporting Rivendell first, and I'll let Grant decide which builders to patron. I was skeptical of Maxway when Grant contracted them for the Bleriot, but once I got my frameset I found it was as nicely built as my Rambouillet and Atlantis in the areas that matter. Maybe not as nicely painted, but it was much less expensive. I used the savings to help offset the cost of couplers and a repaint to a different color. I'm now a fan, generally, of Maxway for less-expensive bikes. I believe my Rawland dSogn was built there and it's just great. Ed Felker On Jan 22, 11:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I think there are too many unknowns here. All we get to do is look at the finished frame and speculate as to the quality we cant see. We don't get to see the tubes being mitered, prepped, brazed or anything else until it is done. We don't know the brazers or the amount of time they spend on each frame. I have no idea if the brazers at Toyo are as good as the brazers at Waterford and how those compare to the Maxway guys. Does anyone besides GP? So I take Riv's word that they are all good. Sure my Bleriot is not as fancy as my wife's Ram but there is no quality difference I can see and I have inspected the both pretty closely. Are the lugs less fancy? Is the paint not quite as nicely done? Yes and yes but I dont see those as quality differences in terms of how well the bike is built. I do feel like there is value in buying US made things, but after that it doesnt matter to me if they are made in Japan or Taiwan. I think that someone in Taiwan can braze just as well as someone in Japan who can braze just as well as someone in the US. I think Rivendell oversold the fact that their frames were made at Toyo and are having to overcome the idea that frames from other places (excluding Waterfrod/US) are inferior. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Aside: in NM, you have six traditionally distinct ethnic groups: Indians, Hispanics, Mexicans, Anglos (includes Poles, Italians, etc,) and Texans. On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Perspective. I was born in the UK, grew up in Missouri, lived half of my life in California, now in Texas. Sometimes Texas acts like it is/wants to be a separate country. Toyota Tundras are advertised as Made in Texas, by Texans, for Texans. Am I a member of the Texas group? Am I a member of the USA group? Am I a member of the North America group? Am I a member of the Earth group? I'm not suggesting one perspective is better or worse than another, I guess our perspective depends upon where we want to draw the line between them and us. Angus On Jan 28, 5:04 am, zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: How so my friend? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 03:02:19 To: RBW Owners Bunchrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective. Angus On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
On Jan 27, 11:38 pm, doug peterson dougpn...@cox.net wrote: but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? This thread needs pictures -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective. Angus On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
How so my friend? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 03:02:19 To: RBW Owners Bunchrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective. Angus On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I must say that the variety of attitudes toward products made in the USA which get expressed on this site very often leave me scratching my head. Some people who fall all over themselves praising MUSA clothes, regularly diss and compare excellent US bike products to cheaper Tiawnese. About the only producer who escapes this is Phil Wood. The primary reason for buying local is the contribution to building a sense of community. I live in a rural state and have the opportunity to source a very high proportion of my food, some of my clothing and my grandsons toys from people in this state. These products are invariably more expensive, but the quality is excellent and they are my neighbors. All but one of my bicycle frames were made in Asia, and they are very good. However, I try to dress them up with local products - White hubs cranks; PW BB, Paul's brakes; Chris King HS. It's a community thing; I spend my money here and they pay their taxes here. One hand helps the other. michael, westford, Vt On Jan 28, 6:04 am, zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: How so my friend? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 03:02:19 To: RBW Owners Bunchrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis I think, Robert, that this all depends upon ones perspective. Angus On Jan 27, 1:45 pm, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 18:05 -0500, robert zeidler wrote: I'm not saying we have to be green, but every product has to be shipped by plane, boat or something equally inefficient from a long way away. You'll have to ride it every day, a long way to offset that. The wages are paid to someone who will spend that money... not here. You on the other hand will pay a little less to support that person, but will pay a lot more in taxes, to support the person(s) you did not pay for his labor etc., here. You will pay taxes on borrowed money (mostly form mainland China). It's true that there are wars etc., to support , also w/ borrowed money. That's besides the point here. If the product is equal in quality and every other facet of its existence doesn't it make sense to spend that money here, even if it's a little more? So, you are against all international trade? I'm not a big business supporter but I'm always amazed when people talk about the greed of big business. They, just like a person who is thrifty or cheap, just want to keep more of what they earn. The numbers are just larger but it's all relative. So by purchasing something made overseas that can be sourced here is in effect screwing your fellow American, even if unknowingly, or unintended. And to top it off, it's often said that every one of those borrowed dollars, that's paid in unemployment returns $1.60 to the economy. Then why don't we just lay everybody off and watch things take right off! I find arguments like this much more persuasive when they focus on things like importing garlic from mainland China (like, we don't grow garlic here?) than bicycle frames and components from Taiwan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
No of course not. Just home-team 1st trade. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com Sender: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:20:39 To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Reply-To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 18:05 -0500, robert zeidler wrote: I'm not saying we have to be green, but every product has to be shipped by plane, boat or something equally inefficient from a long way away. You'll have to ride it every day, a long way to offset that. The wages are paid to someone who will spend that money... not here. You on the other hand will pay a little less to support that person, but will pay a lot more in taxes, to support the person(s) you did not pay for his labor etc., here. You will pay taxes on borrowed money (mostly form mainland China). It's true that there are wars etc., to support , also w/ borrowed money. That's besides the point here. If the product is equal in quality and every other facet of its existence doesn't it make sense to spend that money here, even if it's a little more? So, you are against all international trade? I'm not a big business supporter but I'm always amazed when people talk about the greed of big business. They, just like a person who is thrifty or cheap, just want to keep more of what they earn. The numbers are just larger but it's all relative. So by purchasing something made overseas that can be sourced here is in effect screwing your fellow American, even if unknowingly, or unintended. And to top it off, it's often said that every one of those borrowed dollars, that's paid in unemployment returns $1.60 to the economy. Then why don't we just lay everybody off and watch things take right off! I find arguments like this much more persuasive when they focus on things like importing garlic from mainland China (like, we don't grow garlic here?) than bicycle frames and components from Taiwan. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Angus angusle...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:50 AM, James Warren jimcwar...@earthlink.net wrote: I'm not sure if this is so easy to answer. I think in the small details, the bikes are always morphing some. My early Toyo Atlantis from 2001 has pretty substantial differences from later Toyo models. For example, mine is a 64 frame size, but at that time, the top tube on that size was 62 cm. Afterward, for the later part of the Toyo run, that top tube in the 64 size was only 60 cm. Also, the lugs changed at least twice in the Toyo Atlanti, meaning three different lug sets. Kickstand plates came along later too. I think that even within a certain manufacturing source, the details of the frame would change as different batches are made. Sorry I can't be more specific and less speculative. Maybe a good way to answer this is to go on Riv rides and compare the different Atlanti among the different participants. I'm guessing the owners could be coerced into talking about the finer details of their bikes a little bit. -Jim W. On Jan 26, 2011, at 10:42 AM, Bob wrote: The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? On Jan 26, 1:19 pm, Ryan ryter...@mts.net wrote: As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.comwrote: If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not that I know of. They've only been built in Japan (by Toyo) and in the United States (by Waterford). Aside from that, I've seen some of the Maxway built frames up close and the quality seems pretty damn good. So I don't know that I would agree that there are inherent problems with Taiwanese made products in the case of the Maxway frames. Shaun Meehan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? Does Waterford make the Atlantis forks? Nobilette made the early Waterford Hilsen forks. On Jan 26, 12:42 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? On Jan 26, 1:19 pm, Ryan ryter...@mts.net wrote: As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
My faux pas, but I'm not talking about quality, but rather sourcing from overseas. Not a flag-waving exercise, though I'm beginning to thik we should do more of that, but just the fact that the profit, wages etc., go overseas rather than someone here reaping that benefit, which we all will end up paying anyway, plus the fact all of this stuff has to be shipped across the ocean. I'm not talking about a not-available-here-in-any-way-shape-or-form item, but rather something that can sourced closer to home. Shimano? Campy? no problem, not made here, but anything that can be... Sorry, I read a lot about how the business model is tosend the labor overseas, and I know that's a complicated, OT, lengthy discussion, and don't mean to get that started here, but it is Riv-related in a big way. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Shaun Meehan meehan.sh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not that I know of. They've only been built in Japan (by Toyo) and in the United States (by Waterford). Aside from that, I've seen some of the Maxway built frames up close and the quality seems pretty damn good. So I don't know that I would agree that there are inherent problems with Taiwanese made products in the case of the Maxway frames. Shaun Meehan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
No brother, sorry, no tongue-in-cheek here. See my other post. RGZ-living w/ VT-like snowfall Z. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4:46 PM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:46 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. ? Patrick thinking until it hurts Moore who is just beginning, *beginning*, mind you, to suspect that RZ was being facetious but forgot his emoticon. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Those New Zealand and Aussie wool baselayers are a curse on the global economy. I can only countenance bicycle equipment and accoutrements delivered themselves by bicycle. I kid! I kid! On Jan 27, 2:53 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 14:15 -0600, Shaun Meehan wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not that I know of. They've only been built in Japan (by Toyo) and in the United States (by Waterford). Aside from that, I've seen some of the Maxway built frames up close and the quality seems pretty damn good. So I don't know that I would agree that there are inherent problems with Taiwanese made products in the case of the Maxway frames. I have no idea what Robert means, but I suspect his concerns have to do with politics and economics, not with the quality of Taiwanese products. It's even possible he's confusing Taiwan with the PRC. I wonder, do those same concerns apply to Japanese-made products, or German-made ones? At least, Taiwan was never part of the Axis... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Anything that can be gotten here, as long as it's not prohibitively more expensive, should be. Can make a BMW (m/c) here, I get it, but if, as is the supposed case with these frames when there is no other real difference. Get it made here. Who doesn't see the logic of that? On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 14:15 -0600, Shaun Meehan wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not that I know of. They've only been built in Japan (by Toyo) and in the United States (by Waterford). Aside from that, I've seen some of the Maxway built frames up close and the quality seems pretty damn good. So I don't know that I would agree that there are inherent problems with Taiwanese made products in the case of the Maxway frames. I have no idea what Robert means, but I suspect his concerns have to do with politics and economics, not with the quality of Taiwanese products. It's even possible he's confusing Taiwan with the PRC. I wonder, do those same concerns apply to Japanese-made products, or German-made ones? At least, Taiwan was never part of the Axis... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
This I agree with, by and large. Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and multitudinous single acts of greed into a general, All Pervading Harmony that lifts every boat higher and higher toward the Empyrean until everyone strangles on his own wellbeing. Patrick and multiplicity as such is the source of unity, too Moore, in a Metaphysical mood. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:15 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: My faux pas, but I'm not talking about quality, but rather sourcing from overseas. Not a flag-waving exercise, though I'm beginning to thik we should do more of that, but just the fact that the profit, wages etc., go overseas rather than someone here reaping that benefit, which we all will end up paying anyway, plus the fact all of this stuff has to be shipped across the ocean. I'm not talking about a not-available-here-in-any-way-shape-or-form item, but rather something that can sourced closer to home. Shimano? Campy? no problem, not made here, but anything that can be... Sorry, I read a lot about how the business model is tosend the labor overseas, and I know that's a complicated, OT, lengthy discussion, and don't mean to get that started here, but it is Riv-related in a big way. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Shaun Meehan meehan.sh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not that I know of. They've only been built in Japan (by Toyo) and in the United States (by Waterford). Aside from that, I've seen some of the Maxway built frames up close and the quality seems pretty damn good. So I don't know that I would agree that there are inherent problems with Taiwanese made products in the case of the Maxway frames. Shaun Meehan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Great!! I'll get the butter and the lemons! On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 6:57 PM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: This I agree with, by and large. Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and multitudinous single acts of greed into a general, All Pervading Harmony that lifts every boat higher and higher toward the Empyrean until everyone strangles on his own wellbeing. Patrick and multiplicity as such is the source of unity, too Moore, in a Metaphysical mood. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:15 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: My faux pas, but I'm not talking about quality, but rather sourcing from overseas. Not a flag-waving exercise, though I'm beginning to thik we should do more of that, but just the fact that the profit, wages etc., go overseas rather than someone here reaping that benefit, which we all will end up paying anyway, plus the fact all of this stuff has to be shipped across the ocean. I'm not talking about a not-available-here-in-any-way-shape-or-form item, but rather something that can sourced closer to home. Shimano? Campy? no problem, not made here, but anything that can be... Sorry, I read a lot about how the business model is tosend the labor overseas, and I know that's a complicated, OT, lengthy discussion, and don't mean to get that started here, but it is Riv-related in a big way. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Shaun Meehan meehan.sh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If it's made here, it's better. Think of everything bad (and there are many things) associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. None of the Atlantis frames have ever been built in Taiwan. At least not that I know of. They've only been built in Japan (by Toyo) and in the United States (by Waterford). Aside from that, I've seen some of the Maxway built frames up close and the quality seems pretty damn good. So I don't know that I would agree that there are inherent problems with Taiwanese made products in the case of the Maxway frames. Shaun Meehan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
On Thu, 2011-01-27 at 16:57 -0700, PATRICK MOORE wrote: This I agree with, by and large. Of course, you know, the Great Invisible Lobster Hand In The Sky secretly and silently coordinates all the infinitely various and multitudinous single acts of greed into a general, All Pervading Harmony that lifts every boat higher and higher toward the Empyrean until everyone strangles on his own wellbeing. The 'Invisible Hand,' I believe it's called. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
My 2007 Hilsen was made by Waterford. It took awhile because the story I got from Rivendell was that Grant was not happy with the fork and was having Mark Nobilette build it. Bill - who loves his Homer and thinks the fork was waiting for. On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:45 PM, JoelMatthews wrote: For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? Does Waterford make the Atlantis forks? Nobilette made the early Waterford Hilsen forks. On Jan 26, 12:42 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? On Jan 26, 1:19 pm, Ryan ryter...@mts.net wrote: As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
On Jan 27, 11:45 am, robert zeidler zeidler.rob...@gmail.com wrote: If they are built here, they are better. Think about everything bad that's associated w/ a Taiwanese made product. OK, I give up. What's bad that's associated with a Taiwanese-made product? (BTW, Taiwan != China) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I wouldn't doubt that by now the OP (Bob) has given up. But recall his original question: This is not questionaing the obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? The subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds may require an assemblage of Atlantises to sort out. With running changes, production of 400 per year (or something like that), and small production runs, Riv probably can't track them that well. Other than really obvious stuff like the pointy vs roundy lugs (I had mine for several years before knowing about that) and kickstand plates, the really subtle stuff would be hard to quantify. That's an inadequate answer but the only one I can come up with. dougP On Jan 26, 10:42 am, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? On Jan 26, 1:19 pm, Ryan ryter...@mts.net wrote: As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I have an Atlantis built in early 2009 by Mark Nobilette. It's a 61, I waited almost a year for it. It's an excellent bike! On Jan 27, 7:23 pm, William Pustow bpus...@aol.com wrote: My 2007 Hilsen was made by Waterford. It took awhile because the story I got from Rivendell was that Grant was not happy with the fork and was having Mark Nobilette build it. Bill - who loves his Homer and thinks the fork was waiting for. On Jan 27, 2011, at 3:45 PM, JoelMatthews wrote: For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? Does Waterford make the Atlantis forks? Nobilette made the early Waterford Hilsen forks. On Jan 26, 12:42 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? On Jan 26, 1:19 pm, Ryan ryter...@mts.net wrote: As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Current Atlantis production is Waterford. Up until last year (I think), they came from Toyo. Toyo was the only source for Rambouillet, Saluki and Romulus/Redwood. AHH was blended as you suggest, and is now all Waterford. I think if you get them to take an order for a Legolas, it would come from Waterford as well. The website currently shows Bombadil, Rodeo, Atlantis, and Hilsen as US made (Waterford). Hunqapillar, Gomez, Foy, Amos, Simpleone as Taiwan made (Maxway) From: Ryan ryter...@mts.net To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:19:28 PM Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
It comes down to your aesthetic sense. If you are not that much into the details of how things look, then it doesn't matter because quality- wise they are identical. But if you do care about the details, then I think you'd have to look at the specific bike to determine what you like more. Totally subjective. I do remember a Grant post mentioning he really liked some of the details on the last run of Toyo Atlantis. Here it is: http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/196 I have both a 2006 and one of these last-run 2010 Atlantii. I like both (a lot), but I overall I prefer the look of the 2006. For example, I like the curvey lugs of the 2006 more. Many people have said they prefer the newer, pointy lugs. Tomato, jitomate. On Jan 26, 3:52 pm, Bruce fullylug...@yahoo.com wrote: Current Atlantis production is Waterford. Up until last year (I think), they came from Toyo. Toyo was the only source for Rambouillet, Saluki and Romulus/Redwood. AHH was blended as you suggest, and is now all Waterford. I think if you get them to take an order for a Legolas, it would come from Waterford as well. The website currently shows Bombadil, Rodeo, Atlantis, and Hilsen as US made (Waterford). Hunqapillar, Gomez, Foy, Amos, Simpleone as Taiwan made (Maxway) From: Ryan ryter...@mts.net To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:19:28 PM Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Holy rack mounts, Batman! Just back from my wanderings of course can't resist a thread with Atlantis in the subject line (really wish I'd had mine with me but that's another story). IIRC, GP specs the bike and the vendor builds it to spec. A brazed joint can only be so good and both Waterford and Toyo have proven they pass the test. Therefore, there should be no functional difference between the two builders, and a frame from either should perform equally well. Riv is pretty careful about the quality of their vendors so spend your energy on which Riv meets your needs and don't stress who built it. If in doubt, just get an Atlantis. dougP On Jan 26, 5:08 pm, jose jose.cor...@gmail.com wrote: It comes down to your aesthetic sense. If you are not that much into the details of how things look, then it doesn't matter because quality- wise they are identical. But if you do care about the details, then I think you'd have to look at the specific bike to determine what you like more. Totally subjective. I do remember a Grant post mentioning he really liked some of the details on the last run of Toyo Atlantis. Here it is: http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/knothole_post/196 I have both a 2006 and one of these last-run 2010 Atlantii. I like both (a lot), but I overall I prefer the look of the 2006. For example, I like the curvey lugs of the 2006 more. Many people have said they prefer the newer, pointy lugs. Tomato, jitomate. On Jan 26, 3:52 pm, Bruce fullylug...@yahoo.com wrote: Current Atlantis production is Waterford. Up until last year (I think), they came from Toyo. Toyo was the only source for Rambouillet, Saluki and Romulus/Redwood. AHH was blended as you suggest, and is now all Waterford. I think if you get them to take an order for a Legolas, it would come from Waterford as well. The website currently shows Bombadil, Rodeo, Atlantis, and Hilsen as US made (Waterford). Hunqapillar, Gomez, Foy, Amos, Simpleone as Taiwan made (Maxway) From: Ryan ryter...@mts.net To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:19:28 PM Subject: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
The current Riv Atlantis is built by Waterford. My original question concerned whether, excluding paint, braze ons and probably tubing, the Waterford is identical to the Toyo build. This is not questionaing the obviously excellent Riv quality, but about subtle specifics of interest to velohistorians an bike nerds. The question remains unanswered. For example, are their differences between the acclaimed Toyo and current Waterford forks? What about subtle bends in the chainstay and other tubing? There must be things that Toyo and Waterford do uniquely well. What are they? On Jan 26, 1:19 pm, Ryan ryter...@mts.net wrote: As far as I know, Atlantises (Atlanti?) were only Toyo-built. But I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is that later models...I'm thinking of the AHH in particular ...were either Toyo or Waterford-built. And as others on this thread have noted, the Sams are either built by Waterford or in Taiwan under the supervision of Toyo That being said, regardless of the origin, Grant's design philosophy and attention to detail are evident...you say tomaytoes and I say tomaahtoes . Rivendells are great bikes Regards, Ryan in Winnipeg,MB On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Over the years, there were numerous changes from batch to batch, even among just Toyo Atlantis frames. Different lugs, different headbadges, different decals, different braze-ons, different forks, and it seems like tire clearance possibly improved in later incarnations. I have not seen a Waterford Atlantis in person, but I suspect the small details continue to evolve. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Or Sam Hillborne! On Jan 26, 2011, at 8:29 PM, doug peterson wrote: If in doubt, just get an Atlantis. dougP -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
The pride of having something still built in the good ole US of A. The reduction in pollution caused by shipping the frame all the way across the Pacific Ocean. On Jan 22, 8:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Bob, I've had two Rivendells (non Atlantis) built by Waterford. They were very well done. I've had two Rivendell (one an Atlantis) built by Toyo. They were also very well done. I have not been able to detect a difference. Angus On Jan 22, 10:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
Grant has emphasized the special qualities of the Toyo fork and how such geometry could not be matched on the Taiwan Sams. So is the Waterford a match or improvement over the Toyo edition? Also, does the Waterford Atlantis have the same impressive chainstay geometry and form of the Toyo? I don't doubt the quality of the Waterford product, just differences in production. Put another way, if they were standing next to each other, could you tell the difference? Is there any reason for a person to prefer one over the other? On Jan 22, 11:34 pm, Bob prov...@umbc.edu wrote: How does the Toyo built Atlantis differ in quality and/or geometry from the Waterford edition? Exclude differences in braze-ons, kickstand plate and range of sizes. In other words, what, if anything, was gained or lost by the change in builder? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I am the last one to comment on this but maybe I can learn something. I was under the impression that the geometry was mandated by Rivendell period. I know on the AHH the only differences were things like 2 water bottle cage mount vs three, a nice paint accent on the fork on one and not on the other and paint color. So Geometry and tube thickness etc for ride is at a spec and the same regardless of who made it. Just my impression..:) I have no clue if I'm right... but then truth being the satisfing representative of the holder what difference does it make it's true.. or spelled correctly. Kelly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Toyo versus Waterford Atlantis
I have seen several Waterford and Toyo built Rivs and the only obvious differences are the things you point out-- braze ons, color (Waterfords seem lighter/ millky). I would think any variation would come from the individuals who braze them-- not the factory they were brazed in. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
