[RBW] Re: What stem?

[Garth]

To each our own perspectives !  Ahahahaahahah !!!  ;)   

I'll toast to that ! 

Happy New Year Everyone ! 



On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:57:26 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:
>
>  I think I disagree a bit that this bike was meant to be used with any old 
> bar.   I know it's "possible,"  but that doesn't mean it would work "well." 
>   I see this as the poor man's mystery/long bike - and, regardless,  that's 
> the kind of ride I want to achieve with it.  In both cases, Grant 
> absolutely did design the bike and the bar in tandem, to work in unison.
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[WETH]

Dear Tim,
Regarding your brake lever and hand position, have you considered moving the 
brake levers closer to the stem?  I have albatross bars on my Surly LHT.  My 
preferred hand position is closer to the bar bends near the stem.  So I slid 
the brake levers away from the bar ends and installed some "horns" on the front 
for times I want to be lower.  The set-up works well for me and leaves the 
section of bars near the shifters for when I want a more upright position.  
Best wishes, Erl
Photos here:
https://flic.kr/p/jwACLE
https://flic.kr/p/jwyqeX

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[Garth]

   FWIW iamkeith, As I have done it myself, but comparing bars is very 
tricky, and photographing them and seeing them properly compared is 
impossible ! 

As for the bike, have you considered buying a Bosco standalone bar and a 
negative rise stem ?  This would have the potential to lower the bars much 
lower than cutting a mere 1/2" off the steerer . Also, how do you know a 
mere 1/2"(1.25cm) is enough ?  What then ?  Also, no bike is truly meant 
for any bar or stem. Just because someone had the bar at hand and designed 
a frame by no means limits it to that or any other bar.  How many people 
ride Alba or Moustache bars on road and racing bikes sold with drop bars 
originally ? Lots ! 

Sure it costs more, but someone here would surely buy the bullmoose from 
you.  Basically hey, we all love to rationalize things to death, 
literally.  My favorite saying is "So What ?" to any self defeating and 
deflating arguments .  Aright, so what if you cut the steerer ? So what if 
you buy separate bar and stem ? So what So what SO WHAT ?  !  !   So look 
at my reply the same way . . . lol . . . So What ? !!!  


On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:01:16 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:
>
>
> Garth, I know what you mean about thinking twice before cutting the 
> steerer.  I definitely will.  The counter argument is that this bike seems 
> to be made specifically for the Bosco or something quite similar, so I 
> don't think there's as much need to keep all options open.   The problem 
> for me is that the frame is borderline too big.  So between the sloped top 
> tube, the extended steerer tube and the rise of the bars themselves, they 
> just end up too high relative to my saddle.  Cutting a half inch off would 
> give me much needed ability to lower them, while someone taller could still 
> simply extend the stem.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[iamkeith]

OK.  Here are some snapshots - hope this is helpful.   These two stems seem 
to put the bars in an "equivalent" position to me, which is to say that the 
center of the main, straight part of the grips are the same fore/aft 
distance from the rider.   Bosco is on a 130mm/10 degree stem, which is 
probably pretty comparable to the 120mm/0 degree bullmoose stem with the 
quill extended a bit.   Albatross is on a similar 70mm/10 degree stem.  So, 
to my eye, it looks like there would need to be around 6 cm shorter stem on 
the albatross, to fit the same.   Easy enough to extrapolate from there, if 
you're looking to change the riding position as well.














Garth, I know what you mean about thinking twice before cutting the 
steerer.  I definitely will.  The counter argument is that this bike seems 
to be made specifically for the Bosco or something quite similar, so I 
don't think there's as much need to keep all options open.   The problem 
for me is that the frame is borderline too big.  So between the sloped top 
tube, the extended steerer tube and the rise of the bars themselves, they 
just end up too high relative to my saddle.  Cutting a half inch off would 
give me much needed ability to lower them, while someone taller could still 
simply extend the stem.

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 3:46:47 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for the input. I sent a PM to Keith requesting comparison 
> photos of the albas and Boscos on the Clem but maybe others would want to 
> see them, Keith up to you if you want to post them here. 
>
> A lot of my desire to do a bar switch is fit related, but some of it has 
> to do with aesthetics as I don't love the bull moose. I like the look of a 
> level quill stem versus the positive angle and triangular set up of the 
> bull moose. 
>
> I think a tallux stem with an Alba bar would give me the drop and lean I 
> am looking for, taking in to account the -40mm difference between bars 
> only, and the further difference between the stem angle of the two styles. 
>
> I never really considered the width of the Alba to be a deal breaker, or 
> concern, and this is the first time I'm hearing about that being an issue. 
> All other reviews and comments I read about the bars is that people love 
> them and often never look back once installed. The width of the boscos is 
> pretty extreme and I can't see wanting to go any wider. As it stands you 
> have to be pretty focused riding through traffic and on narrow bridge decks 
> or passing others on paths. I would be happy  with a reduction in width. 
>
> Sounds like I've made my decision! Sometimes writing out your thoughts is 
> all you need to do. Thanks for being the sounding board!  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[iamkeith]

OK.  Here are some snapshots - hope this is helpful.   These two stems seem 
to put the bars in an "equivalent" position to me, which is to say that the 
center of the main, straight part of the grips are the same fore/aft 
distance from the rider.   Bosco is on a 130mm/10 degree stem, which is 
probably pretty comparable to the 120mm/0 degree bullmoose stem with the 
quill extended a bit.   Albatross is on a similar 70mm/10 degree stem.  So, 
to my eye, it looks like there would need to be around 6 cm shorter stem on 
the albatross, to fit the same.   Easy enough to extrapolate from there, if 
you're looking to change the riding position as well.















Garth, I know what you mean about thinking twice before cutting the 
steerer.  I definitely will.  The counter argument is that this bike seems 
to be made specifically for the Bosco or something quite similar, so I 
don't think there's as much need to keep all options open.   The problem 
for me is that the frame is borderline too big.  So between the sloped top 
tube, the extended steerer tube and the rise of the bars themselves, they 
just end up too high relative to my saddle.  Cutting a half inch off would 
give me much needed ability to lower them, while someone taller could still 
simply extend the stem

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 3:46:47 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for the input. I sent a PM to Keith requesting comparison 
> photos of the albas and Boscos on the Clem but maybe others would want to 
> see them, Keith up to you if you want to post them here. 
>
> A lot of my desire to do a bar switch is fit related, but some of it has 
> to do with aesthetics as I don't love the bull moose. I like the look of a 
> level quill stem versus the positive angle and triangular set up of the 
> bull moose. 
>
> I think a tallux stem with an Alba bar would give me the drop and lean I 
> am looking for, taking in to account the -40mm difference between bars 
> only, and the further difference between the stem angle of the two styles. 
>
> I never really considered the width of the Alba to be a deal breaker, or 
> concern, and this is the first time I'm hearing about that being an issue. 
> All other reviews and comments I read about the bars is that people love 
> them and often never look back once installed. The width of the boscos is 
> pretty extreme and I can't see wanting to go any wider. As it stands you 
> have to be pretty focused riding through traffic and on narrow bridge decks 
> or passing others on paths. I would be happy  with a reduction in width. 
>
> Sounds like I've made my decision! Sometimes writing out your thoughts is 
> all you need to do. Thanks for being the sounding board!  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[iamkeith]

As I mentioned in my earlier post,  I do have the non-bullmoose and do plan 
to use a negative rise stem.  I wont cut it until I've had the opportunity 
to actually ride it.  (Right now, I just walk it up the hill and coast for 
a while).  But even if I do, remember that the insertion point will still 
be *inches* higher than any non-rivendell bike - so it's not like I'd be 
making something atypical or unusable.  I think I disagree a bit that this 
bike was meant to be used with any old bar.   I know it's "possible,"  but 
that doesn't mean it would work "well."   I see this as the poor man's 
mystery/long bike - and, regardless,  that's the kind of ride I want to 
achieve with it.  In both cases, Grant absolutely did design the bike and 
the bar in tandem, to work in unison.

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 4:38:48 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
>
>FWIW iamkeith, As I have done it myself, but comparing bars is very 
> tricky, and photographing them and seeing them properly compared is 
> impossible ! 
>
> As for the bike, have you considered buying a Bosco standalone bar and a 
> negative rise stem ?  This would have the potential to lower the bars much 
> lower than cutting a mere 1/2" off the steerer . Also, how do you know a 
> mere 1/2"(1.25cm) is enough ?  What then ?  Also, no bike is truly meant 
> for any bar or stem. Just because someone had the bar at hand and designed 
> a frame by no means limits it to that or any other bar.  How many people 
> ride Alba or Moustache bars on road and racing bikes sold with drop bars 
> originally ? Lots ! 
> e
> Sure it costs more, but someone here would surely buy the bullmoose from 
> you.  Basically hey, we all love to rationalize things to death, 
> literally.  My favorite saying is "So What ?" to any self defeating and 
> deflating arguments .  Aright, so what if you cut the steerer ? So what if 
> you buy separate bar and stem ? So what So what SO WHAT ?  !  !   So look 
> at my reply the same way . . . lol . . . So What ? !!!  
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:01:16 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:
>>
>>
>> Garth, I know what you mean about thinking twice before cutting the 
>> steerer.  I definitely will.  The counter argument is that this bike seems 
>> to be made specifically for the Bosco or something quite similar, so I 
>> don't think there's as much need to keep all options open.   The problem 
>> for me is that the frame is borderline too big.  So between the sloped top 
>> tube, the extended steerer tube and the rise of the bars themselves, they 
>> just end up too high relative to my saddle.  Cutting a half inch off would 
>> give me much needed ability to lower them, while someone taller could still 
>> simply extend the stem.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[Tim Wood]

Hey Keith, thanks for posting those pics. Btw, Looks like a nice piece of 
property you got there - enjoyed the view!!!  Much whiter then over here!

i think I've figured out that a 1 to 2cm stem deduction from the boscos will 
give me the position I am after. I always feel like the boscos come too far in 
to me, especially while sharp turning. I am also constantly grabbing ahead of 
the break lever so I can stand to loose some reach from the bar end. 

I did a nice 40k ride 2 days ago, completely in the the rain/sleet/snow and had 
a 12km stretch of riverside flats with a headwind. I was grabbing the Bosco at 
the front, ahead of the bull horns(?) and it was quite helpful in staying out 
of the wind.  I can see a similar position on the albas, in the "humps" but 
they appear to be 2 or more cm ahead of where the Bosco front is.  A 1 cm 
reduction for me will make that area useable. 

Have you tried flipping the albas to get lower?  

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[Lungimsam]

Lay the Alba over the stem and bar setup that's on the bike now and see where 
the bar lies in comparison. Change stem out if needed. May not need to change 
the stem if the bar looks like it will be where you want it.

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[iamkeith]

I should have added:  Being able to swap back and forth between the two 
bars, I'm leaning heavily toward the Bosco.  The reason I have the 
Albatross is that I've tried it on several bikes and just not found a place 
where it works for me. It always feels too narrow.  But on such a huge bike 
as the 59 Clem, the issue is exaggerated even more.   I DO understand the 
desire to lower the Bosco though.   In addition to getting a negative-rise 
stem (which doesn't help in your case), I think I'm going to do the 
"unthinkable," and cut the steerer tube down a bit.  I will probably also 
go with a longer (at least 130, probably 140) stem, which will help get 
some more lean without having to cut length off the bar and thereby 
preclude the third hand position.  Food for thought...

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 11:37:03 PM UTC-7, iamkeith wrote:
>
> I happen to have an albatross and a non-bullmoose bosco bar, along with 
> several different stems, sitting with my un-finished clem at the moment.  I 
> could take snapshots with both bars together, and take some measurements of 
> the distance between clamp locations if it helps.   I've been experimenting 
> and trying to find something that feels like it will work too, but i have 
> the advantage of not having brake levers, shifters or grips installed yet. 
>  Clem is the same size as yours.   
>
> On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 1:37:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>>
>> In the next couple days I'm putting an order in for some Alba bars and 
>> tallux stem for my Clem. My 59cm Clem has the stock bosco bull moose and 
>> I'm looking for group input on what length stem to buy. 
>>
>> As we know the bosco bullmoose has a 12cm extension and I'm just 
>> wondering how that should translate to an Alba conversion. It seems the 
>> Alba extends past the clamp area at the "humps", in effect, increasing the 
>> reach in the forward grip. This leads me to think I should go for a shorter 
>> stem, say 11cm. 
>>
>> I like the current fit and reach on my Clem and if anything I wouldn't 
>> mind a more aggressive position - less rise, more lean, shorter grip. 
>>
>> Does anyone have any personal experience in switching between bosco and 
>> albatross and what conclusions were drawn? 
>>
>> Thanks for your time and input. 
>>
>> Tim 
>> Vancouver, BC
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[Garth]

  
   Think twice iamkeith ! The Bosco is-by-design much higher than any bar 
intended for such bicycles, so to cut a stem just for that one type of bar 
that is atypical may not be a great idea.  You can often find used 56cm 
Alba's FS in this group. they are more than just one cm. wide at the ends, 
the flare around the front is more round , and the angle which they go back 
is slightly less(appears more straight) than the 55cm ones. I have both and 
one on top of the other it very obvious.   Or the Albastache even @55.5cm 
is more like the 56 Alba minus the extra length back. 

  But hey, it's your darn bike  !   So take all this with a poof of wind :) 




On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 12:03:21 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:
>
> I should have added:  Being able to swap back and forth between the two 
> bars, I'm leaning heavily toward the Bosco.  The reason I have the 
> Albatross is that I've tried it on several bikes and just not found a place 
> where it works for me. It always feels too narrow.  But on such a huge bike 
> as the 59 Clem, the issue is exaggerated even more.   I DO understand the 
> desire to lower the Bosco though.   In addition to getting a negative-rise 
> stem (which doesn't help in your case), I think I'm going to do the 
> "unthinkable," and cut the steerer tube down a bit.  I will probably also 
> go with a longer (at least 130, probably 140) stem, which will help get 
> some more lean without having to cut length off the bar and thereby 
> preclude the third hand position.  Food for thought...
>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[Garth]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/olipop/8915626620
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/20241209691

The length of stem is wholly dependent on you Tim, as only you know what  "* 
if anything I wouldn't mind a more aggressive position - less rise, more 
lean, shorter grip*" really means .  You may even want no shorter extension 
.  A good thing to always have on hand is a tall quill adapter(Genetic/VO 
brands)  and some cheap threadless stems , I have a bunch I got for $5 a 
piece . This way you can experiment around and with an open face stem of 
various angles/lengths and you don't have to remove anything from the bars. 
Then if you want a one piece quill find one suitable after you are dialed 
in. 

The rise angle of the stem will also be very important here. Myself the -17 
degree Nitto stems like the Talux are kind of self defeating : A tall shaft 
with a negative angle. VO makes a quill stem that you may like with a 
positive rise.  The Bosco per spec is about 40mm higher rise than the Alba 
. 

I've not switched myself as I am satisfied with Alba's. I could tell just 
by the specs and images it was swept way too far back for me. You just have 
to decide how much lower and further forward you wish to go, but of course 
until you do it and ride you won't really know what that feels riding.  

Also, where will your hands be on the Alba ? What levers and where ?  The 
most room out of the Albas is had with bar end brake levers, thumshifters 
at the top of the curve slightly inside .  Then you have massive room for 
about 12" of for/aft positioning(on the older 56cm Alba). There is none 
other like that !!! 



On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 3:37:40 AM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> In the next couple days I'm putting an order in for some Alba bars and 
> tallux stem for my Clem. My 59cm Clem has the stock bosco bull moose and 
> I'm looking for group input on what length stem to buy. 
>
> As we know the bosco bullmoose has a 12cm extension and I'm just wondering 
> how that should translate to an Alba conversion. It seems the Alba extends 
> past the clamp area at the "humps", in effect, increasing the reach in the 
> forward grip. This leads me to think I should go for a shorter stem, say 
> 11cm. 
>
> I like the current fit and reach on my Clem and if anything I wouldn't 
> mind a more aggressive position - less rise, more lean, shorter grip. 
>
> Does anyone have any personal experience in switching between bosco and 
> albatross and what conclusions were drawn? 
>
> Thanks for your time and input. 
>
> Tim 
> Vancouver, BC
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[Ron Mc]

you should be able to measure the reach on your current setup, compare it 
to diagrammed alba dimensions on the rivendell site, and near-enough 
duplicate the reach by choosing your stem length.  

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 2:37:40 AM UTC-6, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> In the next couple days I'm putting an order in for some Alba bars and 
> tallux stem for my Clem. My 59cm Clem has the stock bosco bull moose and 
> I'm looking for group input on what length stem to buy. 
>
> As we know the bosco bullmoose has a 12cm extension and I'm just wondering 
> how that should translate to an Alba conversion. It seems the Alba extends 
> past the clamp area at the "humps", in effect, increasing the reach in the 
> forward grip. This leads me to think I should go for a shorter stem, say 
> 11cm. 
>
> I like the current fit and reach on my Clem and if anything I wouldn't 
> mind a more aggressive position - less rise, more lean, shorter grip. 
>
> Does anyone have any personal experience in switching between bosco and 
> albatross and what conclusions were drawn? 
>
> Thanks for your time and input. 
>
> Tim 
> Vancouver, BC
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What stem?

[iamkeith]

I happen to have an albatross and a non-bullmoose bosco bar, along with 
several different stems, sitting with my un-finished clem at the moment.  I 
could take snapshots with both bars together, and take some measurements of 
the distance between clamp locations if it helps.   I've been experimenting 
and trying to find something that feels like it will work too, but i have 
the advantage of not having brake levers, shifters or grips installed yet. 
 Clem is the same size as yours.   

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 1:37:40 AM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> In the next couple days I'm putting an order in for some Alba bars and 
> tallux stem for my Clem. My 59cm Clem has the stock bosco bull moose and 
> I'm looking for group input on what length stem to buy. 
>
> As we know the bosco bullmoose has a 12cm extension and I'm just wondering 
> how that should translate to an Alba conversion. It seems the Alba extends 
> past the clamp area at the "humps", in effect, increasing the reach in the 
> forward grip. This leads me to think I should go for a shorter stem, say 
> 11cm. 
>
> I like the current fit and reach on my Clem and if anything I wouldn't 
> mind a more aggressive position - less rise, more lean, shorter grip. 
>
> Does anyone have any personal experience in switching between bosco and 
> albatross and what conclusions were drawn? 
>
> Thanks for your time and input. 
>
> Tim 
> Vancouver, BC
>
>

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