Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2016-02-15 Thread Tim Gavin 
My liteskin 26 x 2.1" Thunder Burts also measure 51 mm on Mavic 319 rims
(23 mm external).  Plenty of clearance under P65 fenders.

Tim Gavin
Cedar Rapids, IA

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> My light skin 29 x 2.1" TBs measure 2" (51mm). They are a weekish old, and
> have not been inflated over 20 psi, so I'd expect they'd stretch to 2.1"
> fairly easily with increased pressure.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-06-09 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Brian,

Glad to hear your report em. I wasn't giving up them and hearing your
experiences adds to my resolve to run them. And so supple :)

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 11:12 PM, stonehog stone...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm surprised to hear Mark's experience with shredded Thunder Burts on the
 Oregon Outback.  I ran the liteskin 2.1 tubeless, and had one leak early
 on the first day, but managed to spin seal it, and never had to pump it up
 again.  My buddy was running the Snakeskin 2.1 rear and 2.25 front, and had
 a similar early leak on the rear that we sealed with some pumping and
 spinning, but he did manage to pinch flat the front on an extra aggressive
 creek crossing submerged rock hit on day 4 (the guy behind us double
 flatted his beefier tires), and we tubed it due to a .5 cm cut that needed
 more than sealant.  At the end of the ride, after a clean up, the tires
 don't look too much worse for wear.  I could see putting a lot more miles
 on these bad boys.  And dann - they are supple!

 Brian
 Seattle, WA

 On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:35:53 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Since I have two other tire threads going, I may as well go for the
 trifecta! Grin.

 Any and all experiences with Thunder Burts appreciated. I’m trying them
 out as a fast rolling all terraine tire (I know they are a racing tire,
 viewing it as a wide knobby version of the Barlow Pass, sort of — hoping
 for a smoother, faster ride over all terrians).

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread Daniel Jackson 
Mark, what versions of the tire were ya'll running?

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 2:07:03 PM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Just finished a 7 day gravel tour, including the Oregon outback. Tires are 
 shredded. My buddy graham had two rear blowouts and a dime sized piece of 
 tire in the middle tear out. I have some big slashes halfway through the 
 tread and the knobs are showing signs of tearing. These tires roll so 
 nicely but seem to be too soft for loaded gnarly road touring. Full report 
 to come...



 On May 25, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Hugh Smitham hughs...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 Mark Reimers buddy on the OOB slashed a TB. Still waiting to hear which 
 version he was running. The weight savings was so nominal I chose puncture 
 resistance.

 ~Hugh

 “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep 
 moving.” ― Albert Einstein

 http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 I'm running Snakeskin but wish I'd gotten the plain, most supple. Next 
 time, and then I'll know. My understanding is: Snakeskin = sidewall 
 protection and best for tubeless; Raceguard = puncture protection.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 9:30:43 AM UTC-6, Daniel Jackson wrote:

 Hey Deacon,

 What model Burt are you running? Snakeskin, Raceguard, none of the 
 above? Any idea about differences in puncture resistance between the 
 Snakeskin and Raceguard forms?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread Daniel Jackson 
So if I were to go with Schwalbe for dirt road touring, would Nobby Nics or 
Smart Sams be a smarter choice? Other alternatives that folks have tried? 
Maxxis Ardents? 

On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 6:55:21 PM UTC-6, David G wrote:


 In the MTB world Schwalbe is known for making fast (low rolling 
 resistance)  but relatively fragile tires. Here in SoCal many mountain 
 bikers who enjoy bombing down gnarly downhills eschew them because of their 
 relatively low longevity, even with Snakeskin or Super Gravity enhanced 
 construction. 

 Thunder Burt is the fastest Schwalbe tire available for XC MTB racing. 
 It's what a pro would choose for trying to win the XC gold medal at the 
 Olympics (if she wasn't running something more exotic like a tubular). 

 Loaded backcountry touring is way way off the intended use grid for 
 Thunder Burts. Not to say it is a bad idea, just that (many/severe) flats 
 are to be expected. 

 Snakeskin only means more durable sidewalls, not additional puncture/cut 
 protection under the tread. 

 Sealant will only seal punctures and small cuts. 

 I really like Schwalbe Evolution line XC tires like Thunder Burt and 
 Racing Ralph for trail riding (and even more delicate tires like Compass 
 Babyshoe Pass and Pacenti Pari Moto). I'm willing to accept a much higher 
 risk of flats and limited tire lifespan to get that sweet ride. I carry 
 spare tubes and tube patches and sealant and a tire boot patch. 

 For a multiday off-road bikepacking with Thunder Burts carrying a spare 
 tire would be a good idea. I've read that you can fix major casing cuts in 
 the field with a needle and dental floss plus shoe goo, but I've never had 
 to try that yet. 

 - David G in San Diego 


  On May 25, 2015, at 3:42 PM, cyclotourist cyclot...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote: 
  
  Yeah, wonder what the carried weight amount was. Bummer that they 
  didn't hold up as hoped for... 
  
  On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Smitham hughs...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote: 
  Mike, 
  
  Mark  his buddy Graham were rolling with the snakeskin's. But yeah 
 they're 
  race tires not originally designed for loaded touring. I'm bummed to 
 hear 
  how they didn't hold up, still gonna ride with em, even though Mark's 
  experience...at least for now. 
  
  ~Hugh 
  
  On May 25, 2015 1:25 PM, Mike Schiller mikey...@rocketmail.com 
 javascript: wrote: 
  
  The TB's are considered a race tire by Schwalbe.  I would only use 
 the 
  Snakeskin version for extended off-road touring.  They are wonderful 
 tires. 
  
  I've been using Panaracer Comets recently, less supple but more 
 durable 
  and roll pretty good on pavement. 
  
  ~mike 
  Carlsbad Ca 
  
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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread Mike Shaljian 
It would seem like the Schwalbe 'Rock Razor' might be a good model to try for 
dirt touring 
(http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/off-road_tires/Rock_Razor). . .

I've been searching for the perfect medium-duty touring tire as well. I have 
helped a friend setup some Super Motos as tubeless on her 29+ bike and am going 
to do the same on mine, in order to have a go faster wheelset along with my 
3 Chupacabras. The trouble with the Lite-Skin Super Motos is that the sidewall 
is very leaky and the tires don't have a TL-Easy/Ready bead. Hers seem to be 
starting to hold pressure after a week of fussing. 

Due to the leaky nature of Super Motos, I've considered the option of getting 
some Rock Razors and sanding off the nubs to have a TL-Ready, 2.35 tire that 
would be fit for lighter touring and fast gravel/paved road rides. If this was 
going to be your main loaded dirt touring tire the nubs would obviously help! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread David Yu Greenblatt 
Patrick, Furious Fred is lighter, Thunder Burt




On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Patrick Moore bertin...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 6:55 PM, David Yu Greenblatt 
 david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com wrote:


 In the MTB world Schwalbe is known for making fast (low rolling
 resistance)  but relatively fragile tires.


 For the record, the Big Apple obviously not a dedicated off road tire, is
 very sturdy while still rolling well.



 Thunder Burt is the fastest Schwalbe tire available for XC MTB racing.


 I think that the Furious Fred is considered their ne plus ultra when it
 comes to speed -- lowest weight and rolling resistance. It's lighter,
 that's for sure.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread David Yu Greenblatt 
Patrick, Furious Fred is lighter, but Thunder Burt is faster:

http://www.schwalbe.com/en/offroad-reader/thunder-burt.html

- David G in San Diego



 On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Patrick Moore bertin...@gmail.com
 wrote:



 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 6:55 PM, David Yu Greenblatt 
 david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com wrote:


 In the MTB world Schwalbe is known for making fast (low rolling
 resistance)  but relatively fragile tires.


 For the record, the Big Apple obviously not a dedicated off road tire, is
 very sturdy while still rolling well.



 Thunder Burt is the fastest Schwalbe tire available for XC MTB racing.


 I think that the Furious Fred is considered their ne plus ultra when it
 comes to speed -- lowest weight and rolling resistance. It's lighter,
 that's for sure.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread Patrick Moore 
I wish I'd known that before I bought 3 more of the FFs from Wiggle! Oh
well, the FF is plenty fast.

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 8:26 AM, David Yu Greenblatt 
david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com wrote:

 Patrick, Furious Fred is lighter, but Thunder Burt is faster:

 http://www.schwalbe.com/en/offroad-reader/thunder-burt.html

 - David G in San Diego



 On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 7:07 AM, Patrick Moore bertin...@gmail.com
 wrote:



 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 6:55 PM, David Yu Greenblatt 
 david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com wrote:


 In the MTB world Schwalbe is known for making fast (low rolling
 resistance)  but relatively fragile tires.


 For the record, the Big Apple obviously not a dedicated off road tire,
 is very sturdy while still rolling well.



 Thunder Burt is the fastest Schwalbe tire available for XC MTB racing.


 I think that the Furious Fred is considered their ne plus ultra when it
 comes to speed -- lowest weight and rolling resistance. It's lighter,
 that's for sure.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread Patrick Moore 
On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 6:55 PM, David Yu Greenblatt 
david.yu.greenbl...@gmail.com wrote:


 In the MTB world Schwalbe is known for making fast (low rolling
 resistance)  but relatively fragile tires.


For the record, the Big Apple obviously not a dedicated off road tire, is
very sturdy while still rolling well.



 Thunder Burt is the fastest Schwalbe tire available for XC MTB racing.


I think that the Furious Fred is considered their ne plus ultra when it
comes to speed -- lowest weight and rolling resistance. It's lighter,
that's for sure.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-26 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Daniel,

They were running the Snakeskin version.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Daniel Jackson 
daniel.seth.jack...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mark, what versions of the tire were ya'll running?

 On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 2:07:03 PM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Just finished a 7 day gravel tour, including the Oregon outback. Tires
 are shredded. My buddy graham had two rear blowouts and a dime sized piece
 of tire in the middle tear out. I have some big slashes halfway through the
 tread and the knobs are showing signs of tearing. These tires roll so
 nicely but seem to be too soft for loaded gnarly road touring. Full report
 to come...



 On May 25, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Hugh Smitham hughs...@gmail.com wrote:

 Mark Reimers buddy on the OOB slashed a TB. Still waiting to hear which
 version he was running. The weight savings was so nominal I chose puncture
 resistance.

 ~Hugh

 “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
 moving.” ― Albert Einstein

 http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com
 wrote:

 I'm running Snakeskin but wish I'd gotten the plain, most supple. Next
 time, and then I'll know. My understanding is: Snakeskin = sidewall
 protection and best for tubeless; Raceguard = puncture protection.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 9:30:43 AM UTC-6, Daniel Jackson wrote:

 Hey Deacon,

 What model Burt are you running? Snakeskin, Raceguard, none of the
 above? Any idea about differences in puncture resistance between the
 Snakeskin and Raceguard forms?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Mike,

Mark  his buddy Graham were rolling with the snakeskin's. But yeah they're
race tires not originally designed for loaded touring. I'm bummed to hear
how they didn't hold up, still gonna ride with em, even though Mark's
experience...at least for now.

~Hugh
On May 25, 2015 1:25 PM, Mike Schiller mikeybi...@rocketmail.com wrote:

 The TB's are considered a race tire by Schwalbe.  I would only use the
 Snakeskin version for extended off-road touring.  They are wonderful tires.

 I've been using Panaracer Comets recently, less supple but more durable
 and roll pretty good on pavement.

 ~mike
 Carlsbad Ca


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Mike Schiller 
The TB's are considered a race tire by Schwalbe.  I would only use the 
Snakeskin version for extended off-road touring.  They are wonderful tires.

I've been using Panaracer Comets recently, less supple but more durable and 
roll pretty good on pavement.

~mike
Carlsbad Ca




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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Mark Reimers buddy on the OOB slashed a TB. Still waiting to hear which
version he was running. The weight savings was so nominal I chose puncture
resistance.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 I'm running Snakeskin but wish I'd gotten the plain, most supple. Next
 time, and then I'll know. My understanding is: Snakeskin = sidewall
 protection and best for tubeless; Raceguard = puncture protection.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 9:30:43 AM UTC-6, Daniel Jackson wrote:

 Hey Deacon,

 What model Burt are you running? Snakeskin, Raceguard, none of the above?
 Any idea about differences in puncture resistance between the Snakeskin and
 Raceguard forms?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Mark Reimer 
Just finished a 7 day gravel tour, including the Oregon outback. Tires are 
shredded. My buddy graham had two rear blowouts and a dime sized piece of tire 
in the middle tear out. I have some big slashes halfway through the tread and 
the knobs are showing signs of tearing. These tires roll so nicely but seem to 
be too soft for loaded gnarly road touring. Full report to come...



 On May 25, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Hugh Smitham hughsmit...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Mark Reimers buddy on the OOB slashed a TB. Still waiting to hear which 
 version he was running. The weight savings was so nominal I chose puncture 
 resistance.
 
 ~Hugh
 
 “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” 
 ― Albert Einstein
 
 http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/
 
 
 
 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:
 I'm running Snakeskin but wish I'd gotten the plain, most supple. Next time, 
 and then I'll know. My understanding is: Snakeskin = sidewall protection and 
 best for tubeless; Raceguard = puncture protection.
 
 With abandon,
 Patrick
 
 On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 9:30:43 AM UTC-6, Daniel Jackson wrote:
 Hey Deacon,
 
 What model Burt are you running? Snakeskin, Raceguard, none of the above? 
 Any idea about differences in puncture resistance between the Snakeskin and 
 Raceguard forms?
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread David Yu Greenblatt 

In the MTB world Schwalbe is known for making fast (low rolling resistance)  
but relatively fragile tires. Here in SoCal many mountain bikers who enjoy 
bombing down gnarly downhills eschew them because of their relatively low 
longevity, even with Snakeskin or Super Gravity enhanced construction. 

Thunder Burt is the fastest Schwalbe tire available for XC MTB racing. It's 
what a pro would choose for trying to win the XC gold medal at the Olympics (if 
she wasn't running something more exotic like a tubular). 

Loaded backcountry touring is way way off the intended use grid for Thunder 
Burts. Not to say it is a bad idea, just that (many/severe) flats are to be 
expected. 

Snakeskin only means more durable sidewalls, not additional puncture/cut 
protection under the tread. 

Sealant will only seal punctures and small cuts. 

I really like Schwalbe Evolution line XC tires like Thunder Burt and Racing 
Ralph for trail riding (and even more delicate tires like Compass Babyshoe Pass 
and Pacenti Pari Moto). I'm willing to accept a much higher risk of flats and 
limited tire lifespan to get that sweet ride. I carry spare tubes and tube 
patches and sealant and a tire boot patch. 

For a multiday off-road bikepacking with Thunder Burts carrying a spare tire 
would be a good idea. I've read that you can fix major casing cuts in the field 
with a needle and dental floss plus shoe goo, but I've never had to try that 
yet. 

- David G in San Diego 


 On May 25, 2015, at 3:42 PM, cyclotourist cyclotour...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Yeah, wonder what the carried weight amount was. Bummer that they
 didn't hold up as hoped for...
 
 On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Smitham hughsmit...@gmail.com wrote:
 Mike,
 
 Mark  his buddy Graham were rolling with the snakeskin's. But yeah they're
 race tires not originally designed for loaded touring. I'm bummed to hear
 how they didn't hold up, still gonna ride with em, even though Mark's
 experience...at least for now.
 
 ~Hugh
 
 On May 25, 2015 1:25 PM, Mike Schiller mikeybi...@rocketmail.com wrote:
 
 The TB's are considered a race tire by Schwalbe.  I would only use the
 Snakeskin version for extended off-road touring.  They are wonderful tires.
 
 I've been using Panaracer Comets recently, less supple but more durable
 and roll pretty good on pavement.
 
 ~mike
 Carlsbad Ca
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread cyclotourist 
Yeah, wonder what the carried weight amount was. Bummer that they
didn't hold up as hoped for...

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Smitham hughsmit...@gmail.com wrote:
 Mike,

 Mark  his buddy Graham were rolling with the snakeskin's. But yeah they're
 race tires not originally designed for loaded touring. I'm bummed to hear
 how they didn't hold up, still gonna ride with em, even though Mark's
 experience...at least for now.

 ~Hugh

 On May 25, 2015 1:25 PM, Mike Schiller mikeybi...@rocketmail.com wrote:

 The TB's are considered a race tire by Schwalbe.  I would only use the
 Snakeskin version for extended off-road touring.  They are wonderful tires.

 I've been using Panaracer Comets recently, less supple but more durable
 and roll pretty good on pavement.

 ~mike
 Carlsbad Ca


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-19 Thread Daniel Jackson 
What year did the chain stay clearance increase? Did the paint job change 
that year from bean/green-grey to cream/green?

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 8:58:58 AM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 I'm running Atlas in the rear and Synergy in the front with Tektro CR720 
 Cantilever Brakes. Brake clearence should be fine, as I've eyeballed Paul 
 cantis for someday on the Hunqapillar (I have them on my Quickbeam, though 
 I love how the Tektros work, so will ride them into the ground first). 
 Depending on the vintage of your Hunqapillar, the main issue will be chain 
 stay clearance. That's where I'm snuggest and I have the less clearence 
 Hunq.

 With abandon,
 Patrick


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-19 Thread Deacon Patrick 
Not sure when the shift happened, but it was with the first green batch as 
far as I know.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 5:40:57 PM UTC-6, Daniel Jackson wrote:

 What year did the chain stay clearance increase? Did the paint job change 
 that year from bean/green-grey to cream/green?


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-18 Thread Deacon Patrick 
I'm running Atlas in the rear and Synergy in the front with Tektro CR720 
Cantilever Brakes. Brake clearence should be fine, as I've eyeballed Paul 
cantis for someday on the Hunqapillar (I have them on my Quickbeam, though 
I love how the Tektros work, so will ride them into the ground first). 
Depending on the vintage of your Hunqapillar, the main issue will be chain 
stay clearance. That's where I'm snuggest and I have the less clearence 
Hunq.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-18 Thread Daniel Jackson 
Hi Deacon,

Wondering what rims and what brakes your running on your Hunq with Burts. 
I'm considering setting up a Velocity Chukker with some 2.1 Burts and Paul 
Touring Cantilever breaks. Do you think clearance would work out?

Thanks,
Daniel

On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 10:24:33 AM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Yes, 25-35 psi (depending on load) is the sweet spot on mine.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 10:21:59 AM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:

 I went for a 100km gravel ride on them on the weekend. I felt a bit 
 sluggish, thought it was the legs, just one of those days. When I got home 
 I realized I had been running them at around 15-18psi, hah! I'm all for low 
 pressure, but that was too low... Brought them up to about 25 and it was 
 back to feeling zippy again. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-18 Thread cyclotourist 
I had a GREAT ride yesterday on TBs. I wanted to see how much sand
they could tolerate, and for relatively short stretches (25
yards/meters) they did pretty well. I had to walk them a few times,
but not bad. 30 mile ride yesterday through lots of sand, and a decent
amount of asphalt. Neither slowed them down too much:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/sets/72157652601078389

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:
 I'm running Atlas in the rear and Synergy in the front with Tektro CR720
 Cantilever Brakes. Brake clearence should be fine, as I've eyeballed Paul
 cantis for someday on the Hunqapillar (I have them on my Quickbeam, though I
 love how the Tektros work, so will ride them into the ground first).
 Depending on the vintage of your Hunqapillar, the main issue will be chain
 stay clearance. That's where I'm snuggest and I have the less clearence
 Hunq.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-11 Thread Tony DeFilippo 
Thanks for the info guys, I'll check out the 2.1 ones. My Bombadil would
probably fit the 2.25's but it'll be close and if they 'grow' any it would
be a problem.

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Hugh Smitham hughsmit...@gmail.com wrote:

 MIke,

 If I knew what I know now I'd have built a wheel set with wider rims for
 the Atlantis!

 ~Hugh

 “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
 moving.” ― Albert Einstein

 http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Mike Schiller mikeybi...@rocketmail.com
 wrote:

 I have the 650B x 2.1 version.  They measure 51+mm wide on my Dyads
 which are 24.5mm outside width.  I have the same Performance version David
 has.  They are an OEM tire and not generally for sale *and* they are
 folding beads.

 ~mike Carlsbad CA


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-11 Thread Mark Reimer 
I would be surprised if the 2.25's didn't fit, I've got room to spare in my 
Atlantis, mounted to Dyad rims.

I went for a 100km gravel ride on them on the weekend. I felt a bit 
sluggish, thought it was the legs, just one of those days. When I got home 
I realized I had been running them at around 15-18psi, hah! I'm all for low 
pressure, but that was too low... Brought them up to about 25 and it was 
back to feeling zippy again. 

On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 8:24:01 AM UTC-5, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

 Thanks for the info guys, I'll check out the 2.1 ones. My Bombadil would 
 probably fit the 2.25's but it'll be close and if they 'grow' any it would 
 be a problem.

 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Hugh Smitham hughs...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 MIke,

 If I knew what I know now I'd have built a wheel set with wider rims for 
 the Atlantis! 

 ~Hugh

 “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep 
 moving.” ― Albert Einstein

 http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Mike Schiller mikey...@rocketmail.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 I have the 650B x 2.1 version.  They measure 51+mm wide on my Dyads 
 which are 24.5mm outside width.  I have the same Performance version David 
 has.  They are an OEM tire and not generally for sale *and* they are 
 folding beads. 

 ~mike Carlsbad CA


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-11 Thread Deacon Patrick 
Yes, 25-35 psi (depending on load) is the sweet spot on mine.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 10:21:59 AM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:

 I went for a 100km gravel ride on them on the weekend. I felt a bit 
 sluggish, thought it was the legs, just one of those days. When I got home 
 I realized I had been running them at around 15-18psi, hah! I'm all for low 
 pressure, but that was too low... Brought them up to about 25 and it was 
 back to feeling zippy again. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Deacon Patrick 
I haven't measured them but my Thunder Burts have less clearance now after 
150ish miles than they did at first, at 30 psi. So they do grow in size 
with inflation and use, which seems typical of a more supple tire. Size 
accordingly.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Mark Reimer 
Mike, 

I have the 2.25 tires in my 58cm Atlantis. Been there about a month. They 
are AWESOME. They roll way way faster than Rock N Roads or WTB 2.1 Nano's, 
the only two tires I've used in my Atlantis so far. 

I only wish I would have found them for as cheap as listed here. I think I 
paid around 125 per tires, ouch! Canadian dollar contributes to that 
though.. 

https://flic.kr/p/rUeDzP

On Thursday, May 7, 2015 at 11:00:23 PM UTC-5, Mike Shaljian wrote:

 Look, Schwalbe is offering the Thunder Burt as a 29 X 2.25 model now! 
 Even more volume for super-cush All-Road and trails riding! 
 http://www.schwalbe.com/en/offroad-reader/thunder-burt.html

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Mark Reimer 
Mike, 

I have the 2.25 tires in my 58cm Atlantis. Been there about a month. They 
are AWESOME. They roll way way faster than Rock N Roads or WTB 2.1 Nano's, 
the only two tires I've used in my Atlantis so far. 

I only wish I would have found them for as cheap as listed here. I think I 
paid around 125 per tires, ouch! Canadian dollar contributes to that 
though.. 

a href=https://www.flickr.com/photos/theworldisours/1739877; 
title=Untitled by Mark Reimer, on Flickrimg 
src=https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7691/1739877_be3dab1444_k.jpg; 
width=2048 height=1363 alt=Untitled/a

On Thursday, May 7, 2015 at 11:00:23 PM UTC-5, Mike Shaljian wrote:

 Look, Schwalbe is offering the Thunder Burt as a 29 X 2.25 model now! 
 Even more volume for super-cush All-Road and trails riding! 
 http://www.schwalbe.com/en/offroad-reader/thunder-burt.html

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Tim Gavin 
Tony-

You have some apples and oranges going on here.



 http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-snakeskin-pacestar-27%2C5x2%2C25-tl-easy-folding-444604/wg_id-8913
 -540grams, $37


The evolution tire you linked to is 2.25 wide, but the performance one
is 2.1 wide.  Also, the evolution tire has a tubeless bead.

vs


 http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-performance-dc-650b-27%2C5-x-2%2C10-98533/wg_id-238
 -440grams, $16


That accounts for a little of the weight discrepancy, but I don't believe
that the performance Thunder Burt weighs only 440 grams with a steel
bead.  The steel bead performance TB isn't listed on Schwalbe NA's
Thunder Burt page
http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/off-road_tires/Thunder_Burt, so I
can't confirm.

Regardless, the difference in ride/feel between the performance and
evolution lines would probably startle you.  The Super Moto
http://www.schwalbetires.com/node/4730 (evolution line, Pacestar
compound) feels as supple as any Grand Bois or Pari Moto tire I've ridden.
They're super fast.  The performance line Fat Franks I put on my
girlfriend's bike are nice, but nowhere near as fast.

I'd rule out the performance Thunder Burt, unless you don't care about
performance.

Looks like your choices are:
584 x 54 mm, in Liteskin (415g)
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-pacestar-27%2C5x2%2C10-liteskin-folding-229215/wg_id-8913
or Snakeskin/Tubeless (480g)
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-snakeskin-pacestar-27%2C5x2%2C10-tl-easy-folding-229283/wg_id-8913
584 x 57 mm, in Snakeskin/Tubeless (540g)
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-snakeskin-pacestar-27%2C5x2%2C25-tl-easy-folding-444604/wg_id-8913

Less than $40 each, considering they're $90 at US retail, seems like a
great deal.

I may add a pair of 559 x 54 Thunder Burts, in Liteskin
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-pacestar-26x2.10-liteskin-folding-435831/wg_id-241,
to my order once they get Super Motos back in stock next week.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread cyclotourist 
I have the Performance line right now. They're fine, but not tubeless
ready. If you don't plan on going tubeless, I'd say get the cheaper/lighter
Performance. Snakeskin means an extra layer of material on the sidewalls.
Very useful if you ride in areas w/ sharp rocks that damage tires
regularly. Also quite useful when riding tubeless as sidewall damage can
end your ride.

BTW, very positive experiences purchasing Schwalbes German mail-order sites.


On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 5:23 AM, Tony DeFilippo vpi...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hugh or anyone else who can answer


 http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-snakeskin-pacestar-27%2C5x2%2C25-tl-easy-folding-444604/wg_id-8913
 -540grams, $37

 vs


 http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-performance-dc-650b-27%2C5-x-2%2C10-98533/wg_id-238
 -440grams, $16

 I know that the 'performance' line of Schwable is their cheaper line,
 maybe the website weight's are off.  Regardless of the weight can anyone
 comment on the ride-feel differences between the performance vs
 'evo-snakeskin-pacestar' in schwable tires?

 Thanks!


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it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Mark Reimer 
Deacon, how much did they expand? I wish I would have measured mine when I
installed them. They are tight in my Atlantis. I've ground to a halt
once when I hit some wet mud already. Really pushing the limits of my frame
with these :)

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 I haven't measured them but my Thunder Burts have less clearance now after
 150ish miles than they did at first, at 30 psi. So they do grow in size
 with inflation and use, which seems typical of a more supple tire. Size
 accordingly.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Deacon Patrick 
Unfortunately, the technical term is yea much, Mark. Sardonic grin. It's 
based on thinking when I installed them they have more clearance than the 
2.1 Smart Sams and thinking on my bikepacking trip yesterday, They have 
expanded to be about the same as the Smart Sams, but with smaller knobbies 
they still have a bit more.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, May 8, 2015 at 9:40:40 AM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Deacon, how much did they expand? I wish I would have measured mine when I 
 installed them. They are tight in my Atlantis. I've ground to a halt 
 once when I hit some wet mud already. Really pushing the limits of my frame 
 with these :)


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Funny on the 26er I have a ton of room! I sort of wished they made em
larger for 26 but then they'd be heavier!

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 8:40 AM, Mark Reimer marknrei...@gmail.com wrote:

 Deacon, how much did they expand? I wish I would have measured mine when I
 installed them. They are tight in my Atlantis. I've ground to a halt
 once when I hit some wet mud already. Really pushing the limits of my frame
 with these :)

 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com
 wrote:

 I haven't measured them but my Thunder Burts have less clearance now
 after 150ish miles than they did at first, at 30 psi. So they do grow in
 size with inflation and use, which seems typical of a more supple tire.
 Size accordingly.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Hugh Smitham 
MIke,

If I knew what I know now I'd have built a wheel set with wider rims for
the Atlantis!

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/



On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Mike Schiller mikeybi...@rocketmail.com
wrote:

 I have the 650B x 2.1 version.  They measure 51+mm wide on my Dyads which
 are 24.5mm outside width.  I have the same Performance version David has.
 They are an OEM tire and not generally for sale *and* they are folding
 beads.

 ~mike Carlsbad CA


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-08 Thread Tony DeFilippo 
Hugh or anyone else who can answer  

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-snakeskin-pacestar-27%2C5x2%2C25-tl-easy-folding-444604/wg_id-8913
-540grams, $37

vs

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-performance-dc-650b-27%2C5-x-2%2C10-98533/wg_id-238
-440grams, $16

I know that the 'performance' line of Schwable is their cheaper line, maybe 
the website weight's are off.  Regardless of the weight can anyone comment 
on the ride-feel differences between the performance vs 
'evo-snakeskin-pacestar' in schwable tires?

Thanks!


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-07 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Liesl,

I just received by TB's and promptly mounted them on my '03 Atlantis
running 26 wheels and took it for a spin today. My initial reaction is
damn wow! I road mixed terrain,  mostly sandy loose trail with some fist
sized rocks. Right off the bat I was amazed how fast they rolled over
asphalt and how sure footed they felt in the loose trail, especially
compared to the Big Ben's I've been running.

Clearance:

I have 60 mm SKS fenders and the TB's have gobs more room, probably because
they measure 47.5mm on my DT Swiss 23mm OD MTB rims, versus the Big Ben's
which on the same rims measures approximately 53.5mm.

Supple:

I know this seems a stretch but they have that Grand Bois Hetre suppleness
which at least for me translates into a cush ride. I ran them at 40 psi and
they rolled really quick, sort of feel like I could run em at 35 psi and be
fine.

Price:

I purchased them from
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/schwalbe-thunder-burt-evo-snakeskin-pacestar-26x2.10-tl-easy-folding-405726
for two I paid IIRC $85.76 approximately that included shipping. They
arrived really quickly considering they came from Germany and had to go
through customs.

Keep in mind I can't speak to durability since I just started riding them,
pretty sure the Big Ben's will last a really long time. I however am
willing to sacrifice that for a supple, fast, weight saving tire that
increases my riding pleasure, along with the potential for increased flats.
Hey out West here the dreaded Goat Head don't discriminate. They went
easily through my brand new Big Ben's.

I think with the cost it's an easy decision.

Happy riding,

~Hugh
On May 6, 2015 9:31 AM, Liesl li...@smm.org wrote:

 I'm intrigued!  Can anyone compare how's the clearance for fenders with
 Big Ben v. Thunder Burts?  And thoughts about the TB's as a commuter tire,
 summer and winter both?  The reduction in weight is of great interest.  I
 run 26 BB's on the wee but long custom and *love* the ride (and that I can
 get them in brown).  However, I'm just not that big and not that young so
 when the bike is set up with front and rear racks and bags, it's hard for
 me to carry it up and down the stairs to the basement where the little
 steed beds down for the night in fluffy fresh hay.  Losing 2 pounds in
 tires would be appreciated!  Also note that I am not flat-prone (which of
 course will change immediately now that I put it in writing).

 RCW

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-07 Thread Mike Shaljian 
Look, Schwalbe is offering the Thunder Burt as a 29 X 2.25 model now! Even 
more volume for super-cush All-Road and trails riding! 
http://www.schwalbe.com/en/offroad-reader/thunder-burt.html

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-02 Thread Patrick Moore 
What were you using before? Sorry, I missed that part of the conversation.

I must keep those in mind for the Fargo, though I seem to be going in a
more roady direction with that bike: from 37 lb and 12 psi 65 mm tires to
28 lb and skinny little 51 mm tires (tho' I just checked pressure after 19
miles of pavement and dirt and the are, F/R, 15/18.)

That said, the Furious Freds are Pretty Damn' Good -- on pavement I was
pushing the same gear, roughly, as on my errand road bike with Kojaks --
shifting between 64 on dirt, briefly 60 on a sandy couple of miles
churned up by horses, to 68 and 72 on pavement depending on wind. The *beau
ideal* would be 60 mm Furious Freds without the little central knoblets and
slightly bigger knobs on the shoulders.

Today's ride, discovering and re-discovering nearby roads and trails --
beside the acequia trails and roads, there are dozens of pretty little
neighborhoods scattered throughout the area (essentially, I-40 in the south
to a mile or so north of Alameda, and from the river to 2nd Street, w/e). I
found some of both that I've not seen before, and others that I've not
ridden for a long while. Basically, I followed my nose and got myself
pleasantly lost, discovering that what I had thought was East (or really,
ESE, the direction of the Sandias).

I would almost be tempted to get one of the new Rawlands built around 559 X
50 mm tires, but I am sold on 622 fatties. IME -- and, though I've taken no
measurements, I daresay my experience of 50+ years of riding is worth
something -- taller tires of the same width roll better over small bumps --
washboard, say -- and sand, and that at higher pressures than 559s of the
same width. That is to say that, IME, a 622X 60-65 at 20 rolls through sand
and washboard like a 559 X 60 at 12/17.

I suspect that more of my riding will be this sort of (sandy and choppy)
dirt + pavement, given that I have scores of such beautiful miles near my
house; and this tempts me (get thee behind me, Satan!) to consider a
Chauncey Matthews custom in the allroud idiom, but translated into NW
Albuquerque riding conditions.

But enough about me!

Patrick: I'll be interested to learn how the TBs perform and hold up longer
term.

Are you using tubes? A wee nudge toward tubeless ...

Oh! My new front wheel, with very nice, bright silver, cartridge-bearing
disk front hub -- Sunshine brand? $15 or so shipped eBay NEW -- and Avid
160 mm rotor, plus FF tire and sealant, as well as a Nashbar allen skewer,
all on the new Velocity Blunt SS rim, weighs exactly 1,502.5 grams.



On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 Wow! Holy Smokes! Gadzooks! Absolutely amazing. Wow!

 All surfaces are smoother, faster, grippier, more sure. Butter.

 Now, lets hope they last at least a year. Sardonic grin. Photo (and the
 next three to the left):
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/16724441584/

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-02 Thread Patrick Moore 
One last remark: I'm not hugely experienced with different tire brands and
models, but I have used many Schwalbes, and I daresay that this company is
easily in the top 3, if not #1 outright, when it comes to Intelligent
Design -- of tires that are durable and comfortable and fast rolling at
reasonable prices.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 Wow! Holy Smokes! Gadzooks! Absolutely amazing. Wow!

 All surfaces are smoother, faster, grippier, more sure. Butter.

 Now, lets hope they last at least a year. Sardonic grin. Photo (and the
 next three to the left):
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/16724441584/

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-02 Thread Patrick Moore 
I see that my story idea outran my narrative talent. I meant to say: I got
pleasantly lost, and was pleasantly surprised to find myself heading North
when I thought I had been riding East -- interesting how familiar landmarks
(in this case a certain section of the very familiar Rio Grande
recreational trail) appear so foreign when one is geographically
discombobulated.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Patrick Moore bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

 Today's ride, discovering and re-discovering nearby roads and trails --
 beside the acequia trails and roads, there are dozens of pretty little
 neighborhoods scattered throughout the area (essentially, I-40 in the south
 to a mile or so north of Alameda, and from the river to 2nd Street, w/e). I
 found some of both that I've not seen before, and others that I've not
 ridden for a long while. Basically, I followed my nose and got myself
 pleasantly lost, discovering that what I had thought was East (or really,
 ESE, the direction of the Sandias).



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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-01 Thread Deacon Patrick 
I suspect you're right, David. It may be overkill having the snakeskin. 
That's what I get for reading so many reviews from people I don't know (I 
at least feel like I know you all a bit) who tore their sidewalls on rocky 
trails. The Smart Sam's have a beefier casing, but none of the protection, 
but perhaps I needlessly sacrificed supple sidewalls.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:25:57 PM UTC-6, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

 I don't think the Snakeskin sidewalls are really needed unless you're 
 running tubeless. Weak sidewalls are the bane of a tubeless system, but 
 with tubes, it's not really a problem. YMMV.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-01 Thread cyclotourist 
I've damaged plenty of sidewalls, but the only time it ever mattered was
when riding tubeless. The Snakeskin sidewalls are fine, but you'll be
sacrificing a bit of suppleness. Definitely gaining protection in the
bargain, so nothing wrong with that!

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 I suspect you're right, David. It may be overkill having the snakeskin.
 That's what I get for reading so many reviews from people I don't know (I
 at least feel like I know you all a bit) who tore their sidewalls on rocky
 trails. The Smart Sam's have a beefier casing, but none of the protection,
 but perhaps I needlessly sacrificed supple sidewalls.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 7:25:57 PM UTC-6, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

 I don't think the Snakeskin sidewalls are really needed unless you're
 running tubeless. Weak sidewalls are the bane of a tubeless system, but
 with tubes, it's not really a problem. YMMV.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-01 Thread cyclotourist 
I don't think the Snakeskin sidewalls are really needed unless you're
running tubeless. Weak sidewalls are the bane of a tubeless system, but
with tubes, it's not really a problem. YMMV.

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:

 We'll get to try them together, Hugh! Here's what sold me on supple as a
 priority for tires:

 -- I put on and rode my well worn Duremes 50mm on my Hunqapillar. I rode
 the 5 mile trail and dirt road I ride to get anywhere. The ride was more
 jarring than on the Quickbeam Clement MSO's (which are rather supple, even
 for the 60 TPI casing). The ride was jarring enough that it bothered my
 brain (stunning to get a glimpse of just how fine a razor edge I ride even
 on good brain days!) so rather than the planned ride of 20+ miles to
 check out how snowy the trails are, I turned around.

 -- Interestingly, at faster descent speeds the ride was much smoother than
 the slower speeds on the climb up the pass, I presume because higher speeds
 equal greater forces that caused even the Duremes to comply with the road.
 Grin.

 I also opted for the snake skin, though I was tempted to try the lightest,
 most supple version to see how that went.

 With abandon,
 Patrick


 On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 4:10:36 PM UTC-6, hsmitham wrote:

 Funny I'm waiting to get my 26 x 2.1 TB's. I've had the same questions
 and hoping for the best! I elected to go with the snake skin side wall for
 added puncture protection and still I'm shaving a little more than two
 pounds of ( currently running Big Ben's 910 grams each) rotational weight.
 Glad to hear they wear reasonably well and better to hear how fast they are
 on both surfaces. I'm in the camp of I'd rather have a great rolling
 experience with the hassle of fixing a flat. I don't intend to do crazy
 down hill racing over extreme terrain so these should do the trick. I don't
 have immediate plans to run tubeless as I don't have tubeless rims perhaps
 in the future I'll do a wheel build.

 ~Hugh Weight Weenie Smitham

 On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 5:35:53 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Since I have two other tire threads going, I may as well go for the
 trifecta! Grin.

 Any and all experiences with Thunder Burts appreciated. I'm trying them
 out as a fast rolling all terraine tire (I know they are a racing tire,
 viewing it as a wide knobby version of the Barlow Pass, sort of -- hoping
 for a smoother, faster ride over all terrians).

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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