Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

> I think I will be way, way under MAF for quite a while yet.

And, this morning, all of that changed.  I was instructed to keep a more
elevated heart rate for sessions of at least 20 minutes in length and up to
30.  I'll need to work up to that.  The PT used the Karvonen formula and
calculated an average target HR of 124, just a beat over my adjusted MAF
HR.  So, back to the gadgets.  It looks like I might be sweating sooner
than expected.  I might need to mount the trainer tire sooner than expected
also.  It turns out he does do some cycling and even has a spin cycle at
home.  I didn't get too much into his cycling background; too busy
exercising.

Tim

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Patrick,
> I use a Fitbit also.  I took your advice and did some periodic quick
> checks during my session at home this evening.  For my 10 minute session, I
> was only doing about 2.8 mph in about the third lowest gear of my 3x9.
> Cadence didn't show; think I need to adjust the sensor position.  Per the
> Fitbit, my heart rate was about 74 bpm.  I thought I was keeping it real
> low and it seems to be shown by the numbers.  I think I will be way, way
> under MAF for quite a while yet.  It gets a bit higher than that, about 90,
>  just putting on and taking off the brace.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Deacon Patrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Great points, Tim. I'd not remembered we shared the barefoot and MAF
>> journey years ago. Thanks for the reminder! Yes, I do it all by feel. I
>> recently tried a Fitbit and found I actually fall by feel squarely where I
>> thought I did, based on the reality that the age drop off is less than
>> Mafftone's equation shows.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:19:09 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>>
>>> Patrick,
>>>
>>> So, back to the gadgets. :)   Not shown in the picture was the Garmin
>>> 820 on the stem, though it was turned off.  There is also a QuadLock mount
>>> on the bar just in front of that for my iPhone.  For now, I only use that
>>> for the countdown timer to end my session.  My last rides before the
>>> accident had been recording simultaneous data from the Garmin and the
>>> WahooFitness app.  The Tickr X HR strap sends both bluetooth and ANT+ as
>>> does the current Blue SC sensor.  If you look closely at the last picture I
>>> posted, you can just about make out the sensor.
>>>
>>> At the slow speeds I'm doing now, I barely break a sweat, just motion,
>>> no speed at all yet.  The tire was barely touching the trainer, almost free
>>> wheeling.  I have now tightened it up for future rides, but have not
>>> plugged in the controller yet.  I won't do that until I start more strength
>>> training in therapy.
>>>
>>> I remember MAF well.  I promoted it on Barefoot Ted's minimal running
>>> list way back in 2009-10.  I, and I think Tuck also, guessed it was not as
>>> effective for older adults.  I ended up switching to a more lenient HR
>>> method, what felt comfortable.  My rest/max HR at the time was 60/197.  I
>>> haven't tested max in many years.  I'm 52 now and have no aspirations of
>>> ever competing, just staying as healthy as possible.  Before my ACL
>>> accident, average HR on a ride was usually in the 130-140 range with max HR
>>> usually in the 150-170 range.  Rides were under an hour, usually 30-45
>>> minutes.  It was enough to be comfortable without pushing too hard, not
>>> much for hills on those rides either, certainly nothing like what you
>>> have.  I had planned to just slowly build range and ability without pushing
>>> it too hard, still do once I get back to where I was.  I had been reading
>>> Friel's Fast After 50 and had thought of trying some of those ideas, but
>>> was only part when through it and then stopped after the accident.  I may
>>> go back and finish that once I have recovered a bit more.
>>>
>>> For now, going back to following a more strict MAF method might be
>>> beneficial, especially during my recovery phase, so a max of 123 (180-52 =
>>> 128 and then -5 for recovery).  It might be -10, but it's been a while
>>> since I reviewed the method.  Phil was going to have an app also, but it
>>> has been 'coming soon' for quite a long time now.  Once I get there, I can
>>> use the MAF tests to let me know when I plateau and can resume going by
>>> feel.  IIRC, you were pushing for that method way back when.  It seems
>>> funny that we have kind of switched places a bit.  :)  Failing memories are
>>> not helping the recall on the specifics, though, so I could have this
>>> incorrectly.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the reminder.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Deacon Patrick 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Something to consider is a HR monitor so you stay within your aerobic
>>> threshold (not too low, not too high) a la Maffetone. The basic formula is
>>> 180-age for the magic hr. It does an 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, Forrest.  It's not just a dream.  It's real and I get to ride it
almost every day, though only for a very short amount of time and on the
trainer.  I'm certainly looking forward to getting it outside again.

Tim


On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Forrest Meyer 
wrote:

> Heal quickly, Tim. Dreaming about that first Riv may help to speed
> recovery. Best wishes.
>
> On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 9:14:14 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>
>> Tim
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Patrick,
I use a Fitbit also.  I took your advice and did some periodic quick checks
during my session at home this evening.  For my 10 minute session, I was
only doing about 2.8 mph in about the third lowest gear of my 3x9.  Cadence
didn't show; think I need to adjust the sensor position.  Per the Fitbit,
my heart rate was about 74 bpm.  I thought I was keeping it real low and it
seems to be shown by the numbers.  I think I will be way, way under MAF for
quite a while yet.  It gets a bit higher than that, about 90,  just putting
on and taking off the brace.

Thanks.

Tim

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Great points, Tim. I'd not remembered we shared the barefoot and MAF
> journey years ago. Thanks for the reminder! Yes, I do it all by feel. I
> recently tried a Fitbit and found I actually fall by feel squarely where I
> thought I did, based on the reality that the age drop off is less than
> Mafftone's equation shows.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:19:09 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> So, back to the gadgets. :)   Not shown in the picture was the Garmin 820
>> on the stem, though it was turned off.  There is also a QuadLock mount on
>> the bar just in front of that for my iPhone.  For now, I only use that for
>> the countdown timer to end my session.  My last rides before the accident
>> had been recording simultaneous data from the Garmin and the WahooFitness
>> app.  The Tickr X HR strap sends both bluetooth and ANT+ as does the
>> current Blue SC sensor.  If you look closely at the last picture I posted,
>> you can just about make out the sensor.
>>
>> At the slow speeds I'm doing now, I barely break a sweat, just motion, no
>> speed at all yet.  The tire was barely touching the trainer, almost free
>> wheeling.  I have now tightened it up for future rides, but have not
>> plugged in the controller yet.  I won't do that until I start more strength
>> training in therapy.
>>
>> I remember MAF well.  I promoted it on Barefoot Ted's minimal running
>> list way back in 2009-10.  I, and I think Tuck also, guessed it was not as
>> effective for older adults.  I ended up switching to a more lenient HR
>> method, what felt comfortable.  My rest/max HR at the time was 60/197.  I
>> haven't tested max in many years.  I'm 52 now and have no aspirations of
>> ever competing, just staying as healthy as possible.  Before my ACL
>> accident, average HR on a ride was usually in the 130-140 range with max HR
>> usually in the 150-170 range.  Rides were under an hour, usually 30-45
>> minutes.  It was enough to be comfortable without pushing too hard, not
>> much for hills on those rides either, certainly nothing like what you
>> have.  I had planned to just slowly build range and ability without pushing
>> it too hard, still do once I get back to where I was.  I had been reading
>> Friel's Fast After 50 and had thought of trying some of those ideas, but
>> was only part when through it and then stopped after the accident.  I may
>> go back and finish that once I have recovered a bit more.
>>
>> For now, going back to following a more strict MAF method might be
>> beneficial, especially during my recovery phase, so a max of 123 (180-52 =
>> 128 and then -5 for recovery).  It might be -10, but it's been a while
>> since I reviewed the method.  Phil was going to have an app also, but it
>> has been 'coming soon' for quite a long time now.  Once I get there, I can
>> use the MAF tests to let me know when I plateau and can resume going by
>> feel.  IIRC, you were pushing for that method way back when.  It seems
>> funny that we have kind of switched places a bit.  :)  Failing memories are
>> not helping the recall on the specifics, though, so I could have this
>> incorrectly.
>>
>> Thanks for the reminder.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:
>>
>> Something to consider is a HR monitor so you stay within your aerobic
>> threshold (not too low, not too high) a la Maffetone. The basic formula is
>> 180-age for the magic hr. It does an amazing job of building endurance and
>> promoting recovery. Until I did it, I thought I was in shape. I wasn't. I
>> was over exercising big time. Build aerobic base, then add in sprints etc
>> after you've recovered and build up the base.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 7:03:37 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Howard,
>> That is a very generous offer.  I really appreciate it.  I have one of
>> those Schwalbe Insider tires.  It's this one in 700x35:
>> http://a.co/77tQjXx  As mentioned in my reply to Glen, I'll be putting
>> that on once I get up to doing it.
>>
>> So, a separate recovery thread?  I'll try to remember to do that as a
>> celebration of reaching my half hour session limit and getting the trainer
>> tire on for an updated pic.
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Andy,
I have been very careful getting on/off the Homer on the trainer.  With the
way it is positioned against a counter as shown in the picture, I have to
mount it from the left side.  What I have been doing is:  while unweighted,
rotate the left foot to the correct position.  place foot on pedal.
 straighten knee.  put weight on straightened leg.  While holding that leg
firmly in position, rotate the hip and right leg over and onto the saddle.
So far, this has worked very well with no issues or twinges for either
mount or dismount.

You are right about following the PT's lead.  That's what I have been
doing, not getting on the trainer at home until after a couple of sessions
on the bike at therapy.  I've also been checking with him about duration,
keeping the sessions the same length at home as at therapy and confirming
what I should try to work up to for max session time.  I don't think he is
a cyclist, but he has a lot of letters after his name and seems to like the
light load range of motion it can provide.  Strength training will come
later.

As for sweat, I have not yet sweated on the bicycle+trainer either in
therapy or at home.  The sessions are just too short and the load too light
for that so far.  I might need that fan later, though.

Thanks.

Tim







On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 1:56 AM, ascpgh  wrote:

> Tim, Great news that it was a repairable injury instead of a cartilage
> tear leaving your knee short of OEM-spec bushing.
>
> Be very careful getting on and off your sessions on the Homer. I can
> attest that it's bad enough and unsettling to your proprioception to be
> wounded and healing, but the small amount of extra height the trainer and
> front wheel block add can instigate some really bad news if you get hung
> up. When it happened to me I got clear and ended up on my back, free of
> twist or re-injury. I added a step on the left that reduced the bad leg
> lift-over when getting aboard.
>
> In the early parts of this spare yourself the gearing and sweat. Go easy,
> concentrate on clean repetition and keeping your truck aligned as you
> pedal. I made the point when I was on trainer to use the low intensity to
> improve my pedaling dynamics (I had clips and straps) and get some quad
> involvement after so much crutch time.
>
> Your PT is your lead, but many are not real cyclists and see them the same
> as the fixed equipment in the gym. I was a bad patient and was off the
> trainer before the sweat thing was an issue. I guess I couldn't find a box
> fan...or was too stubborn/stupid/longing for the road again, any road.
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh, PA
>
> Enjoy your minutes like they are miles
>
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 6:47:45 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Next update on my knee...
>>
>> Everything seemed to go well with the ACL reconstruction surgery I had on
>> November 1st.  I have had three weeks of therapy so far and the PT started
>> me on a bike.  I've had three short sessions so far.  As soon that started
>> and the PT approved it, I quickly went and used the REI 20% off sale to
>> pick up a Wahoo Fitness Kickr Snap trainer.  I've been on it once so far
>> and for only seven minutes, the same amount of time as the PT session.
>> Just today, I was given the green light for a max of thirty minute
>> sessions.  Yeah.  But,  my activity since this happened in mid-September
>> has been so minimal, my muscles have weakened quite a bit.  I'll need to
>> build them back up again.  This should be a low impact way to do that.
>>
>> Since I'm only doing range of motion exercises, the trainer is not even
>> plugged in yet.  But, it will give me more options once my strength
>> returns.  My elegant steed has been well and truly harnessed.  It looks so
>> sad on the trainer.  But, this should help me to get it out of the harness
>> and back outside by spring.
>>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Tim Butterfield 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to give an update on my knee...
>>>
>>> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not
>>> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.
>>> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November
>>> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start
>>> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy
>>> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage
>>> for a while.
>>>
>>> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have
>>> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud
>>> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am
>>> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to
>>> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage
>>> until I can use it again.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Forrest Meyer]

Heal quickly, Tim. Dreaming about that first Riv may help to speed 
recovery. Best wishes. 

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 9:14:14 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my 
> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary 
> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has 
> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up 
> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral, 
> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Deacon Patrick]

Great points, Tim. I'd not remembered we shared the barefoot and MAF 
journey years ago. Thanks for the reminder! Yes, I do it all by feel. I 
recently tried a Fitbit and found I actually fall by feel squarely where I 
thought I did, based on the reality that the age drop off is less than 
Mafftone's equation shows.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:19:09 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> So, back to the gadgets. :)   Not shown in the picture was the Garmin 820 
> on the stem, though it was turned off.  There is also a QuadLock mount on 
> the bar just in front of that for my iPhone.  For now, I only use that for 
> the countdown timer to end my session.  My last rides before the accident 
> had been recording simultaneous data from the Garmin and the WahooFitness 
> app.  The Tickr X HR strap sends both bluetooth and ANT+ as does the 
> current Blue SC sensor.  If you look closely at the last picture I posted, 
> you can just about make out the sensor.
>
> At the slow speeds I'm doing now, I barely break a sweat, just motion, no 
> speed at all yet.  The tire was barely touching the trainer, almost free 
> wheeling.  I have now tightened it up for future rides, but have not 
> plugged in the controller yet.  I won't do that until I start more strength 
> training in therapy.
>
> I remember MAF well.  I promoted it on Barefoot Ted's minimal running list 
> way back in 2009-10.  I, and I think Tuck also, guessed it was not as 
> effective for older adults.  I ended up switching to a more lenient HR 
> method, what felt comfortable.  My rest/max HR at the time was 60/197.  I 
> haven't tested max in many years.  I'm 52 now and have no aspirations of 
> ever competing, just staying as healthy as possible.  Before my ACL 
> accident, average HR on a ride was usually in the 130-140 range with max HR 
> usually in the 150-170 range.  Rides were under an hour, usually 30-45 
> minutes.  It was enough to be comfortable without pushing too hard, not 
> much for hills on those rides either, certainly nothing like what you 
> have.  I had planned to just slowly build range and ability without pushing 
> it too hard, still do once I get back to where I was.  I had been reading 
> Friel's Fast After 50 and had thought of trying some of those ideas, but 
> was only part when through it and then stopped after the accident.  I may 
> go back and finish that once I have recovered a bit more.
>
> For now, going back to following a more strict MAF method might be 
> beneficial, especially during my recovery phase, so a max of 123 (180-52 = 
> 128 and then -5 for recovery).  It might be -10, but it's been a while 
> since I reviewed the method.  Phil was going to have an app also, but it 
> has been 'coming soon' for quite a long time now.  Once I get there, I can 
> use the MAF tests to let me know when I plateau and can resume going by 
> feel.  IIRC, you were pushing for that method way back when.  It seems 
> funny that we have kind of switched places a bit.  :)  Failing memories are 
> not helping the recall on the specifics, though, so I could have this 
> incorrectly.
>
> Thanks for the reminder.
>
> Tim
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Deacon Patrick  > wrote:
>
> Something to consider is a HR monitor so you stay within your aerobic 
> threshold (not too low, not too high) a la Maffetone. The basic formula is 
> 180-age for the magic hr. It does an amazing job of building endurance and 
> promoting recovery. Until I did it, I thought I was in shape. I wasn't. I 
> was over exercising big time. Build aerobic base, then add in sprints etc 
> after you've recovered and build up the base.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 7:03:37 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Howard,
> That is a very generous offer.  I really appreciate it.  I have one of 
> those Schwalbe Insider tires.  It's this one in 700x35: 
> http://a.co/77tQjXx  As mentioned in my reply to Glen, I'll be putting 
> that on once I get up to doing it.
>
> So, a separate recovery thread?  I'll try to remember to do that as a 
> celebration of reaching my half hour session limit and getting the trainer 
> tire on for an updated pic.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Howard Hatten  wrote:
>
> Tim
> I have a 700 trainer tire I'm not using that I will give you. All you have 
> to do is start a new thread and report on your recovery and eventual return 
> to the road. Contact me off list with your shipping details and I'll send 
> it out.
>
> Howard
> Livonia Mi.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
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> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[ascpgh]

Tim, Great news that it was a repairable injury instead of a cartilage tear 
leaving your knee short of OEM-spec bushing. 

Be very careful getting on and off your sessions on the Homer. I can attest 
that it's bad enough and unsettling to your proprioception to be wounded 
and healing, but the small amount of extra height the trainer and front 
wheel block add can instigate some really bad news if you get hung up. When 
it happened to me I got clear and ended up on my back, free of twist or 
re-injury. I added a step on the left that reduced the bad leg lift-over 
when getting aboard.

In the early parts of this spare yourself the gearing and sweat. Go easy, 
concentrate on clean repetition and keeping your truck aligned as you 
pedal. I made the point when I was on trainer to use the low intensity to 
improve my pedaling dynamics (I had clips and straps) and get some quad 
involvement after so much crutch time. 

Your PT is your lead, but many are not real cyclists and see them the same 
as the fixed equipment in the gym. I was a bad patient and was off the 
trainer before the sweat thing was an issue. I guess I couldn't find a box 
fan...or was too stubborn/stupid/longing for the road again, any road.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh, PA

Enjoy your minutes like they are miles 

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 6:47:45 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Next update on my knee...
>
> Everything seemed to go well with the ACL reconstruction surgery I had on 
> November 1st.  I have had three weeks of therapy so far and the PT started 
> me on a bike.  I've had three short sessions so far.  As soon that started 
> and the PT approved it, I quickly went and used the REI 20% off sale to 
> pick up a Wahoo Fitness Kickr Snap trainer.  I've been on it once so far 
> and for only seven minutes, the same amount of time as the PT session.  
> Just today, I was given the green light for a max of thirty minute 
> sessions.  Yeah.  But,  my activity since this happened in mid-September 
> has been so minimal, my muscles have weakened quite a bit.  I'll need to 
> build them back up again.  This should be a low impact way to do that.
>
> Since I'm only doing range of motion exercises, the trainer is not even 
> plugged in yet.  But, it will give me more options once my strength 
> returns.  My elegant steed has been well and truly harnessed.  It looks so 
> sad on the trainer.  But, this should help me to get it out of the harness 
> and back outside by spring.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Just to give an update on my knee...
>>
>> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not 
>> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.  
>> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November 
>> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start 
>> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy 
>> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage 
>> for a while.
>>
>> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have 
>> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud 
>> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am 
>> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to 
>> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage 
>> until I can use it again.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield > > wrote:
>>
>>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my 
>>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary 
>>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has 
>>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up 
>>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral, 
>>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Patrick,

So, back to the gadgets. :)   Not shown in the picture was the Garmin 820
on the stem, though it was turned off.  There is also a QuadLock mount on
the bar just in front of that for my iPhone.  For now, I only use that for
the countdown timer to end my session.  My last rides before the accident
had been recording simultaneous data from the Garmin and the WahooFitness
app.  The Tickr X HR strap sends both bluetooth and ANT+ as does the
current Blue SC sensor.  If you look closely at the last picture I posted,
you can just about make out the sensor.

At the slow speeds I'm doing now, I barely break a sweat, just motion, no
speed at all yet.  The tire was barely touching the trainer, almost free
wheeling.  I have now tightened it up for future rides, but have not
plugged in the controller yet.  I won't do that until I start more strength
training in therapy.

I remember MAF well.  I promoted it on Barefoot Ted's minimal running list
way back in 2009-10.  I, and I think Tuck also, guessed it was not as
effective for older adults.  I ended up switching to a more lenient HR
method, what felt comfortable.  My rest/max HR at the time was 60/197.  I
haven't tested max in many years.  I'm 52 now and have no aspirations of
ever competing, just staying as healthy as possible.  Before my ACL
accident, average HR on a ride was usually in the 130-140 range with max HR
usually in the 150-170 range.  Rides were under an hour, usually 30-45
minutes.  It was enough to be comfortable without pushing too hard, not
much for hills on those rides either, certainly nothing like what you
have.  I had planned to just slowly build range and ability without pushing
it too hard, still do once I get back to where I was.  I had been reading
Friel's Fast After 50 and had thought of trying some of those ideas, but
was only part when through it and then stopped after the accident.  I may
go back and finish that once I have recovered a bit more.

For now, going back to following a more strict MAF method might be
beneficial, especially during my recovery phase, so a max of 123 (180-52 =
128 and then -5 for recovery).  It might be -10, but it's been a while
since I reviewed the method.  Phil was going to have an app also, but it
has been 'coming soon' for quite a long time now.  Once I get there, I can
use the MAF tests to let me know when I plateau and can resume going by
feel.  IIRC, you were pushing for that method way back when.  It seems
funny that we have kind of switched places a bit.  :)  Failing memories are
not helping the recall on the specifics, though, so I could have this
incorrectly.

Thanks for the reminder.

Tim

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Something to consider is a HR monitor so you stay within your aerobic
> threshold (not too low, not too high) a la Maffetone. The basic formula is
> 180-age for the magic hr. It does an amazing job of building endurance and
> promoting recovery. Until I did it, I thought I was in shape. I wasn't. I
> was over exercising big time. Build aerobic base, then add in sprints etc
> after you've recovered and build up the base.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 7:03:37 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Howard,
>> That is a very generous offer.  I really appreciate it.  I have one of
>> those Schwalbe Insider tires.  It's this one in 700x35:
>> http://a.co/77tQjXx  As mentioned in my reply to Glen, I'll be putting
>> that on once I get up to doing it.
>>
>> So, a separate recovery thread?  I'll try to remember to do that as a
>> celebration of reaching my half hour session limit and getting the trainer
>> tire on for an updated pic.
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Howard Hatten  wrote:
>>
>>> Tim
>>> I have a 700 trainer tire I'm not using that I will give you. All you
>>> have to do is start a new thread and report on your recovery and eventual
>>> return to the road. Contact me off list with your shipping details and I'll
>>> send it out.
>>>
>>> Howard
>>> Livonia Mi.
>>>
>>> --
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>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Deacon Patrick]

Something to consider is a HR monitor so you stay within your aerobic 
threshold (not too low, not too high) a la Maffetone. The basic formula is 
180-age for the magic hr. It does an amazing job of building endurance and 
promoting recovery. Until I did it, I thought I was in shape. I wasn't. I 
was over exercising big time. Build aerobic base, then add in sprints etc 
after you've recovered and build up the base.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 7:03:37 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Howard,
> That is a very generous offer.  I really appreciate it.  I have one of 
> those Schwalbe Insider tires.  It's this one in 700x35: 
> http://a.co/77tQjXx  As mentioned in my reply to Glen, I'll be putting 
> that on once I get up to doing it.
>
> So, a separate recovery thread?  I'll try to remember to do that as a 
> celebration of reaching my half hour session limit and getting the trainer 
> tire on for an updated pic.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Howard Hatten  > wrote:
>
>> Tim
>> I have a 700 trainer tire I'm not using that I will give you. All you 
>> have to do is start a new thread and report on your recovery and eventual 
>> return to the road. Contact me off list with your shipping details and I'll 
>> send it out.
>>
>> Howard
>> Livonia Mi.
>>
>> --
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Howard,
That is a very generous offer.  I really appreciate it.  I have one of
those Schwalbe Insider tires.  It's this one in 700x35: http://a.co/77tQjXx  As
mentioned in my reply to Glen, I'll be putting that on once I get up to
doing it.

So, a separate recovery thread?  I'll try to remember to do that as a
celebration of reaching my half hour session limit and getting the trainer
tire on for an updated pic.

Thanks again.

Tim


On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Howard Hatten  wrote:

> Tim
> I have a 700 trainer tire I'm not using that I will give you. All you have
> to do is start a new thread and report on your recovery and eventual return
> to the road. Contact me off list with your shipping details and I'll send
> it out.
>
> Howard
> Livonia Mi.
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Glen,
Thanks for the idea.  Sweat net ordered.  Not sure where I'll put a fan,
maybe a small one will fit next to the TV, which is just in front of the
bike.

I have the trainer tire, but haven't been up to changing it yet.  It was
tough enough just getting the bike from the storage unit into the RV and on
the trainer while wearing a hinged knee brace and using my cane.  I'm just
glad the Pitlock skewer fit the trainer and I didn't have to change that.
It's been only seven minutes per session so far and thus not a lot of heat
yet.  I'll keep an eye on the good tire using my temp gun after each
session.

It's not boring when it's this short.  :)  I'll probably need the music as
sessions get longer.  Eventually, I'll also have that TV for virtual
rides.  That'll be interesting.

Thanks for the reminders.

Tim

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Glen  wrote:

> Good news on your ACL,
>
> To save your Homer, get a cover to prevent your sweat from landing on it.
> Sweat can be corrosive and headsets really hate it as you will be leaning
> over the stem and headset while riding. Many are available including this
> on for $13.50 at Amazon http://a.co/bFqsSRY A box fan in front of you can
> help keep the sweat a bay too.
>
> I would also change your rear tire to something you won't mind tossing at
> the end of the winter. Trainers build up a lot of heat and wear out tires
> very fast. Specialty trainer tires are available but I've always just used
> old ones I've had in the garage.
>
> last bit of advice, loud music. No matter how exciting it is to be
> spinning again riding a trainer is boring as hell
>
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 4:47:45 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Next update on my knee...
>>
>> Everything seemed to go well with the ACL reconstruction surgery I had on
>> November 1st.  I have had three weeks of therapy so far and the PT started
>> me on a bike.  I've had three short sessions so far.  As soon that started
>> and the PT approved it, I quickly went and used the REI 20% off sale to
>> pick up a Wahoo Fitness Kickr Snap trainer.  I've been on it once so far
>> and for only seven minutes, the same amount of time as the PT session.
>> Just today, I was given the green light for a max of thirty minute
>> sessions.  Yeah.  But,  my activity since this happened in mid-September
>> has been so minimal, my muscles have weakened quite a bit.  I'll need to
>> build them back up again.  This should be a low impact way to do that.
>>
>> Since I'm only doing range of motion exercises, the trainer is not even
>> plugged in yet.  But, it will give me more options once my strength
>> returns.  My elegant steed has been well and truly harnessed.  It looks so
>> sad on the trainer.  But, this should help me to get it out of the harness
>> and back outside by spring.
>>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Tim Butterfield 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to give an update on my knee...
>>>
>>> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not
>>> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.
>>> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November
>>> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start
>>> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy
>>> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage
>>> for a while.
>>>
>>> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have
>>> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud
>>> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am
>>> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to
>>> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage
>>> until I can use it again.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
 left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
 hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
 been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
 with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
 inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.

 Tim

>>>
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Howard Hatten]

Tim
I have a 700 trainer tire I'm not using that I will give you. All you have to 
do is start a new thread and report on your recovery and eventual return to the 
road. Contact me off list with your shipping details and I'll send it out. 

Howard
Livonia Mi. 

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Glen]

Good news on your ACL, 

To save your Homer, get a cover to prevent your sweat from landing on it. 
Sweat can be corrosive and headsets really hate it as you will be leaning 
over the stem and headset while riding. Many are available including this 
on for $13.50 at Amazon http://a.co/bFqsSRY A box fan in front of you can 
help keep the sweat a bay too.

I would also change your rear tire to something you won't mind tossing at 
the end of the winter. Trainers build up a lot of heat and wear out tires 
very fast. Specialty trainer tires are available but I've always just used 
old ones I've had in the garage.

last bit of advice, loud music. No matter how exciting it is to be spinning 
again riding a trainer is boring as hell

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 4:47:45 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Next update on my knee...
>
> Everything seemed to go well with the ACL reconstruction surgery I had on 
> November 1st.  I have had three weeks of therapy so far and the PT started 
> me on a bike.  I've had three short sessions so far.  As soon that started 
> and the PT approved it, I quickly went and used the REI 20% off sale to 
> pick up a Wahoo Fitness Kickr Snap trainer.  I've been on it once so far 
> and for only seven minutes, the same amount of time as the PT session.  
> Just today, I was given the green light for a max of thirty minute 
> sessions.  Yeah.  But,  my activity since this happened in mid-September 
> has been so minimal, my muscles have weakened quite a bit.  I'll need to 
> build them back up again.  This should be a low impact way to do that.
>
> Since I'm only doing range of motion exercises, the trainer is not even 
> plugged in yet.  But, it will give me more options once my strength 
> returns.  My elegant steed has been well and truly harnessed.  It looks so 
> sad on the trainer.  But, this should help me to get it out of the harness 
> and back outside by spring.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Just to give an update on my knee...
>>
>> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not 
>> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.  
>> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November 
>> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start 
>> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy 
>> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage 
>> for a while.
>>
>> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have 
>> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud 
>> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am 
>> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to 
>> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage 
>> until I can use it again.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield > > wrote:
>>
>>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my 
>>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary 
>>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has 
>>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up 
>>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral, 
>>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Andy,
Thanks for the report of success.  When the doc mentioned a stationary bike
for motion without a load, I thought it had promise also.  Once I get past
surgery and into rehab, I'll let the PT determine when I'm ready for it.
But, by then, I will probably have a new smart trainer set up in my too
small living room.

Thanks.

Tim

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 4:09 AM, ascpgh  wrote:

> Tim,
>
> I had an eventful ACL blowout, reconstruction and rehabilitation into
> which cycling fit very well. Probably too well under the circumstances, but
> the net result was the reintroduction of cycling as an enjoyable activity.
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 2:17:43 PM UTC-4, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Just to give an update on my knee...
>>
>> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not
>> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.
>> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November
>> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start
>> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy
>> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage
>> for a while.
>>
>> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have
>> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud
>> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am
>> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to
>> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage
>> until I can use it again.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
>>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
>>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
>>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
>>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
>>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[ascpgh]

Tim,

I had an eventful ACL blowout, reconstruction and rehabilitation into which 
cycling fit very well. Probably too well under the circumstances, but the 
net result was the reintroduction of cycling as an enjoyable activity.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 2:17:43 PM UTC-4, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Just to give an update on my knee...
>
> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not 
> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.  
> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November 
> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start 
> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy 
> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage 
> for a while.
>
> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have 
> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud 
> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am 
> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to 
> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage 
> until I can use it again.
>
> Tim
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my 
>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary 
>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has 
>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up 
>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral, 
>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, René.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 11:46 AM, René Sterental 
wrote:

> Hope you get a speedy recovery!
>
> René
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2016, Tim Butterfield 
> wrote:
>
>> Just to give an update on my knee...
>>
>> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not
>> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.
>> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November
>> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start
>> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy
>> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage
>> for a while.
>>
>> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have
>> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud
>> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am
>> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to
>> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage
>> until I can use it again.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
>>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
>>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
>>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
>>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
>>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

Hope you get a speedy recovery!

René

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Just to give an update on my knee...
>
> The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not
> likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.
> I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November
> followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start
> riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy
> season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage
> for a while.
>
> I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have
> the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud
> flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am
> able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to
> look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage
> until I can use it again.
>
> Tim
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Just to give an update on my knee...

The MRI showed it was not a meniscus tear.  It's an ACL tear.  It is not
likely to be going bone on bone anytime soon, but it will delay recovery.
I will be getting reconstruction surgery late October or early November
followed by six months of rehab.  I kind of hope the PT will let me start
riding again before the end of rehab even if that is during the wet/rainy
season here.  It will certainly delay my building up to any kind of mileage
for a while.

I got almost eleven miles on it before it got parked.  Though I now have
the parts to complete it, fender nut, fender spring thing, Brooks mud
flaps, and dyno tail light, I will wait on finishing the tweaks until I am
able to ride it again and and verify the changes.  It's still pretty to
look at, but I will be moving it from my too small living room to storage
until I can use it again.

Tim

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Ryan,

Thank for the thoughts.  It was not Homer related.  Homie was safe and
sound in my living room when this happened.  It was boat related.  I was on
an unfamiliar boat, stepped from the swim step over the gunwale into the
cockpit, and shifted forward with my left foot/leg still weighted.  Pop.
I'm not sure yet if it torqued or overextended.  I follow up with the ortho
at 7am next Monday.

Tim


On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 10:51 AM, Ryan Fleming  wrote:

> Hope this wasn't an accident with the new Homer by the way...your new bike
> looks really sweet. I hope your recovery is a speedy one. Good luck
>
> On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 9:14:14 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, Patrick.  Sorry to hear of your departure (vacation?) from the
group.  I hope all is well with you and yours.

Tim

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Och! Sorry to hear that! Prayers that you heal rapidly and well, Tim!
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 8:14:14 PM UTC-6, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my
>> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
>> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
>> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
>> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
>> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

Hope this wasn't an accident with the new Homer by the way...your new bike 
looks really sweet. I hope your recovery is a speedy one. Good luck

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 9:14:14 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my 
> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary 
> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has 
> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up 
> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral, 
> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Deacon Patrick]

Och! Sorry to hear that! Prayers that you heal rapidly and well, Tim!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 8:14:14 PM UTC-6, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my 
> left knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary 
> hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has 
> been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up 
> with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral, 
> inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Per an emergency room visit late last night, I tore the meniscus in my left
knee and my 'get acquainted with Homer' plan has been put on temporary
hold.  I will continue to lurk on and off, but my occasional banter has
been put on hold a bit 'til I get things sorted.  I now need to follow up
with an orthopedic and find out whether it was medial/lateral,
inside/outside, and what kind of delay this may put on my riding.  Ugg.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> I guess I could start with this part:
> http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/
> fender-hardware/spring-thing.html
>

I ordered the spring thing today.  Hopefully, I will have that some time
next week and can rework my fender.  I will put on the fender nut, then
position, drill, and mount the spring thing, with or without a hard
spacer.  Compared with the $12 minimum shipping from Riv, the $3.50 USPS
option from VO was nice, especially on a $6 part.

I left a voice message for Peter White Cycles to order a B Topline Light
Brake Plus.  I guess it was too late for them to call back today.  I will
mount that directly to the rack, but I will need to fabricate a small "Z"
shaped bracket to move the Garmin Varia Rearview Radar Tail Light to mount
below and slightly to the rear of the dyno tail light.  Stacked tail lights
should be nice and bright and the Varia can become optional in case the
battery ever runs out.

I took the large Saddlesack back off.  I'm not sure I will need much more
storage than the tool wrap for the short term.  That bag will be great for
going shopping, but I'm reluctant to lock my precious new Homer to a bike
rack with all those 'common' bikes to scratch the paint.  Beausage.  Humph.
   :)  I'll probably get over that once the new wears off.  I wonder
how long that will take.  Getting caught out in a few rains might help as
would locking it outside instead of storing it in my already cramped living
room.  Reminds me of Marge talking to Homer on the Simpsons.  "Oh, Homie!"
 :)  Maybe it will last as long as the rides stay special, though I'm not
sure I want that connection either.  Hmmm.

I did a 3+ mile night ride to test out the dyno lights.  This was my first
real night ride.  I was impressed with how well the IQ-X lights up the
path.  No traffic approached from the rear, so I didn't get to see how well
the rear view radar worked.  If I do this often, I might need to put a
marker on the path to alert me where to turn off to cross the field.  But,
then again, my first guess worked out okay.

I discovered a bit more about the comment I had made earlier about the feel
of wanting to push harder.  I think this may be related to bar end shifter
adaptation and gearing.  With the brifters, it was almost too easy to shift
gears.  It might be due to the need to move my hand with the bar end
combined with the AHH being 9-speed instead of 10-speed  And/or, with the
different gear spacing, the shift at that time may not have the same
benefit as it used to.  The result may be that it is now sometimes easier
to push just a little more rather than shift.  The little harder workout
might be good.  That might also be a good thing if it helps me plan better
for approaching terrain changes.

Overall, it is becoming quite an interesting adaptation path.  Cool!

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Brian,

Thanks for the detailed instructions.  I was missing the spacer part of René's
suggestion.

I guess I could start with this part:
http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/fender-hardware/spring-thing.html

It has the button head allen bolt, nylon lock nut, and washers.  Per the
linked blog post, the spring is very stiff and might work as the spacer.
If not, I could put in a solid spacer.  I already have the leather washers.

Thanks.

Tim



On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Brian Campbell 
wrote:

> Having installed many sets of metal fenders, I can confirm what Rene and
> Steve have communicated is indeed correct. There is no fork crown position,
> fender mounting, that that will eliminate the fender rattle you are
> experiencing. The front portion of the fender needs to be stabilized.
> Whether you attach a second strut or  use a long bolt, you have to stop the
> fender from moving. A longer, button head allen bolt from under the fender,
> up through the fender, with a spacer between the rack and fender will do
> exactly what you need it to do.
>
> IME, the bolt head with a small metal washer (no leather washer on the
> inside of the fender, it will eventually rot away) will not be a problem
> from a clearance standpoint. I did it with my Homer, 38mm Compass tires on
> Open Pro rims (which are narrower and make the tire profile higher) and
> 50mm metal fenders. It was no problem at all.
>
> To do this you remove the front tire. Remove one bolt from the rack,
> leaving it attached to the bike. Use a thin magic marker to  go through
> rack hole center to mark the fender where the hole should be drilled.
> Remove the rack. Use a small punch or nail set to make an indentation so
> your drill bit does not wander. Start with a small bit to drill a pilot
> hole for the larger bit. Then use a bit just slightly larger than the bolt
> you intender to use. Drill hole and make sure there are no burs on either
> side of the fender. Reinstall rack. Insert bolt and measure distance
> between rack under side and top side of fender. Use a piece of a white
> nylon spacer or aluminum tube style spacer, available from any hardware
> store/home center. Cut to fit and sand/smooth the edges. Put a leather
> washer on either end of the spacer and install bolt, washers and spacer.
> Use a nylock locking nut on the top side. Install nut and cut the bolt to
> fit with a hack saw. Leave the nut on, as you will need it to clean up bolt
> threads after cutting. Make sure everything is snug. The leather washer
> does a good job of conforming to the curved surface of the fender.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Brian Campbell]

Having installed many sets of metal fenders, I can confirm what Rene and 
Steve have communicated is indeed correct. There is no fork crown position, 
fender mounting, that that will eliminate the fender rattle you are 
experiencing. The front portion of the fender needs to be stabilized. 
Whether you attach a second strut or  use a long bolt, you have to stop the 
fender from moving. A longer, button head allen bolt from under the fender, 
up through the fender, with a spacer between the rack and fender will do 
exactly what you need it to do. 

IME, the bolt head with a small metal washer (no leather washer on the 
inside of the fender, it will eventually rot away) will not be a problem 
from a clearance standpoint. I did it with my Homer, 38mm Compass tires on 
Open Pro rims (which are narrower and make the tire profile higher) and 
50mm metal fenders. It was no problem at all. 

To do this you remove the front tire. Remove one bolt from the rack, 
leaving it attached to the bike. Use a thin magic marker to  go through 
rack hole center to mark the fender where the hole should be drilled. 
Remove the rack. Use a small punch or nail set to make an indentation so 
your drill bit does not wander. Start with a small bit to drill a pilot 
hole for the larger bit. Then use a bit just slightly larger than the bolt 
you intender to use. Drill hole and make sure there are no burs on either 
side of the fender. Reinstall rack. Insert bolt and measure distance 
between rack under side and top side of fender. Use a piece of a white 
nylon spacer or aluminum tube style spacer, available from any hardware 
store/home center. Cut to fit and sand/smooth the edges. Put a leather 
washer on either end of the spacer and install bolt, washers and spacer. 
Use a nylock locking nut on the top side. Install nut and cut the bolt to 
fit with a hack saw. Leave the nut on, as you will need it to clean up bolt 
threads after cutting. Make sure everything is snug. The leather washer 
does a good job of conforming to the curved surface of the fender.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

What color did you get? The carved doesn't come in the rust, only black,
dark gray and natural. FWIW, I've got both types and cannot really feel any
significant difference, at least riding with padded shorts. Haven't
compared them riding otherwise.

If your front fender isn't attached to your front rack, I can send you some
photos of how I attached mine. It will make the front fender firm and avoid
vibrations, but drilling the hole in the right place is tricky... :-)

René

On Sunday, September 4, 2016, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> From the other thread, but about my AHH.
>
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 6:44 PM, René Sterental  > wrote:
>
>> How are you liking your Homer? Did you take care of the rattling? Have
>> you done more rides?
>
>
> Homer is nice, though I have not yet ridden again.  I centered the fender,
> which should stop the rattle.  But, after reading the other thread about
> the C17/C19, I realized I received the wrong saddle.  I ordered the C17
> Carved, but received the C17 regular.  I've emailed Vince about it, but am
> reluctant to put more wear on this saddle until I know what they want to
> do.  So, my Homer is holding for now until I hear back from them.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Ryan Fleming 
 wrote:

> It does look like they did their usual meticulous packing job , however
> and I'm sure they built up the bike  carefully  as well. I would expect no
> less of them
>

They did do a meticulous packing job.  Of course, that was after they took
it all apart.  :)   Since there were no pictures of it assembled and I'm no
expert on this, I had to research and guess at some things not covered in
the video linked earlier or in the little safety primer booklet.  Here are
some examples:

SP dyno hub - Some of the SON hubs I've seen pictures of appear to have the
connector on the left.  The front rack has the light mount on the left.
However, if the arrows on the SP hub point forward, I need to put the
connector on the right and route the wire up and over to the light.  I've
heard mention of using dielectric grease on the connector, though others
say it isn't necessary.  Also, not sure if the connect is supposed to point
up or back.  I'm guessing up.

The front rack bend to mount looked to connect to the front of the fork.
No problem with that.  The fender didn't seem to fit when mounted at that
spot, so I moved it mount at the rear of the fork.  Without a long slender
4mm (?) allen, it's also a bit difficult to access that bolt behind the
Paul's brakes.  There is still a little rubbing I'm trying to isolate now.

I think I have the saddle and bars set until I ride it and need to tweak.
I'm taking a break now and will go back at it again in a little while to
fiddle with the fender some more and the put on some more bits.  I might
get it done today, though I'm also comfortable with me finishing it over
the weekend.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

It does look like they did their usual meticulous packing job , however and 
I'm sure they built up the bike  carefully  as well. I would expect no less 
of them

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 12:46:40 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Wally,
>
> I saw mine said 'Top' on it.  I didn't notice any drawings.  I would check 
> now, but I cut the top parts off of the box and that piece is upside down 
> with all of the foam and packing bits piled on it.  I'll check it again 
> later.
>
> Tim
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 3:49 AM, Wally Estrella  > wrote:
>
>> From what I've seen on a couple of Riv bike boxes is that someone seems 
>> to like to draw a cat figure along the top.  Mine had a "Catlantis" on it.  
>> At least show the cat if it has one...looking forward to seeing your AHH.  
>>
>>
>> On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 2:06:07 AM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>>>
>>> Failure to produce pics of a new bike is frowned upon here and could 
>>> result in ejection from the forum.
>>>
>>> For all we know that could be a mah jong table in there.
>>>
>>> The tape job does hint at a Rivendell packing job though.
>>>
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Wally,

I saw mine said 'Top' on it.  I didn't notice any drawings.  I would check
now, but I cut the top parts off of the box and that piece is upside down
with all of the foam and packing bits piled on it.  I'll check it again
later.

Tim

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 3:49 AM, Wally Estrella 
wrote:

> From what I've seen on a couple of Riv bike boxes is that someone seems to
> like to draw a cat figure along the top.  Mine had a "Catlantis" on it.  At
> least show the cat if it has one...looking forward to seeing your AHH.
>
>
> On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 2:06:07 AM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>>
>> Failure to produce pics of a new bike is frowned upon here and could
>> result in ejection from the forum.
>>
>> For all we know that could be a mah jong table in there.
>>
>> The tape job does hint at a Rivendell packing job though.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Wally Estrella]

>From what I've seen on a couple of Riv bike boxes is that someone seems to 
like to draw a cat figure along the top.  Mine had a "Catlantis" on it.  At 
least show the cat if it has one...looking forward to seeing your AHH.  

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 2:06:07 AM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Failure to produce pics of a new bike is frowned upon here and could 
> result in ejection from the forum.
>
> For all we know that could be a mah jong table in there.
>
> The tape job does hint at a Rivendell packing job though.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Lungimsam]

Failure to produce pics of a new bike is frowned upon here and could result in 
ejection from the forum.

For all we know that could be a mah jong table in there.

The tape job does hint at a Rivendell packing job though.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Joe,

Thanks for the reminder to curb enthusiasm during assembly. :)  I plan to
go slow and safe and make sure I do it right the first time.  Hopefully, I
can stick to that plan.  Also, with my AHH having the fenders, racks,
lights, etc. that were not on the video bike, I expect it to take a bit
more than the one hour dougP was able to do it in.  But, it gives me
something to aspire to if I can also remain careful at the same time.

Tim

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Go slow, keep an eye on things like handlebars slamming into toptube while
> you're busy with something else. I've found from dreaded personal
> experience that the first scratch is very easy to do when you're excited
> by; and unfamiliar with; a just-out-of-the-box bike. Eyes wide open!
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Will,

I had seen that before, but reviewed it again now and will again during
assembly.  I have some lithium grease, but may need to get some other kind
of generic grease for this.

Thanks.

Tim

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Will  wrote:

> You've probably seen this, but just in case (the official RIv 58cm Hilson
> assembly video):
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbvZJWIm1o0
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 2:34:15 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Next update...
>>
>> So, I got this email from Corey, aka BikePacker @ Riv.  My AHH has
>> shipped!  Yeah!  :D  Per another email, it might be here Friday.  I guess I
>> might have a busy weekend and a very crowded living room.  My folding Park
>> Tool PCS-10 stand arrived just in time.  I have a little folding bike tool
>> kit and a small set of general mechanics tools.  My pedals only need an
>> allen wrench.  I'm hoping I won't need any bike specialty tools to get the
>> rest of it together.  I guess I'll find out soon.
>>
>> And, just in time, my AWOL sold this morning, recouping a small fraction
>> of the AHH cost and freeing up my bike storage space.  It's nice to not
>> have to worry about either being bikeless or storing both bikes at once.
>>
>> Tim
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

Go slow, keep an eye on things like handlebars slamming into toptube while 
you're busy with something else. I've found from dreaded personal experience 
that the first scratch is very easy to do when you're excited by; and 
unfamiliar with; a just-out-of-the-box bike. Eyes wide open!

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

Lucky youpost pictures...I'm expecting a bang-up assembly job at Riv HQ 
too...I decided to go that route once I saw the AHH assembly video Will 
mentioned

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 2:34:15 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Next update...
>
> So, I got this email from Corey, aka BikePacker @ Riv.  My AHH has 
> shipped!  Yeah!  :D  Per another email, it might be here Friday.  I guess I 
> might have a busy weekend and a very crowded living room.  My folding Park 
> Tool PCS-10 stand arrived just in time.  I have a little folding bike tool 
> kit and a small set of general mechanics tools.  My pedals only need an 
> allen wrench.  I'm hoping I won't need any bike specialty tools to get the 
> rest of it together.  I guess I'll find out soon.
>
> And, just in time, my AWOL sold this morning, recouping a small fraction 
> of the AHH cost and freeing up my bike storage space.  It's nice to not 
> have to worry about either being bikeless or storing both bikes at once.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Will]

You've probably seen this, but just in case (the official RIv 58cm Hilson 
assembly video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbvZJWIm1o0



On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 2:34:15 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Next update...
>
> So, I got this email from Corey, aka BikePacker @ Riv.  My AHH has 
> shipped!  Yeah!  :D  Per another email, it might be here Friday.  I guess I 
> might have a busy weekend and a very crowded living room.  My folding Park 
> Tool PCS-10 stand arrived just in time.  I have a little folding bike tool 
> kit and a small set of general mechanics tools.  My pedals only need an 
> allen wrench.  I'm hoping I won't need any bike specialty tools to get the 
> rest of it together.  I guess I'll find out soon.
>
> And, just in time, my AWOL sold this morning, recouping a small fraction 
> of the AHH cost and freeing up my bike storage space.  It's nice to not 
> have to worry about either being bikeless or storing both bikes at once.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[dougP]

Sounds like the stars are lining up nicely.  Rivendell does such a nice job 
of building the bikes that IIRC all I needed was maybe some Allen wrenches 
to assemble it.  I know it was less than an hour from doorbell to out the 
front door.

We'll be looking for full report, with pictures.:).  

dougP

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 12:34:15 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Next update...
>
> So, I got this email from Corey, aka BikePacker @ Riv.  My AHH has 
> shipped!  Yeah!  :D  Per another email, it might be here Friday.  I guess I 
> might have a busy weekend and a very crowded living room.  My folding Park 
> Tool PCS-10 stand arrived just in time.  I have a little folding bike tool 
> kit and a small set of general mechanics tools.  My pedals only need an 
> allen wrench.  I'm hoping I won't need any bike specialty tools to get the 
> rest of it together.  I guess I'll find out soon.
>
> And, just in time, my AWOL sold this morning, recouping a small fraction 
> of the AHH cost and freeing up my bike storage space.  It's nice to not 
> have to worry about either being bikeless or storing both bikes at once.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Next update...

So, I got this email from Corey, aka BikePacker @ Riv.  My AHH has
shipped!  Yeah!  :D  Per another email, it might be here Friday.  I guess I
might have a busy weekend and a very crowded living room.  My folding Park
Tool PCS-10 stand arrived just in time.  I have a little folding bike tool
kit and a small set of general mechanics tools.  My pedals only need an
allen wrench.  I'm hoping I won't need any bike specialty tools to get the
rest of it together.  I guess I'll find out soon.

And, just in time, my AWOL sold this morning, recouping a small fraction of
the AHH cost and freeing up my bike storage space.  It's nice to not have
to worry about either being bikeless or storing both bikes at once.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/28/2016 03:20 PM, dougP wrote:

Tim:

I've not read some of the replies from recently but my 2 cents is to 
go with the Rivendell standard triple with a 24 tooth granny and the 
12-36 Shimano cassette.  While one may not use the lowest gear often, 
it is certainly nice to have & does not require giving up anything to 
get it.  A variety of factors can make such an extreme low gear 
useful:  health issues, age, gradients, altitude, loads, heat, you 
name it.  I've done several tours in your area and the San Juans, and 
those frequent short steep hills will have you often going for the low 
gears. With modern drivetrains there is no sensible reason not to have 
wide range gearing on your bike.


While I don't disagree that there are situations where extremely wide 
gearing (including a 24 x 36 or 18" low gear) can be useful, such 
gearing is not without some cost.  The spacing on cassettes that include 
a 36T (or even a 34T) large sprocket tend to be rather wide.  With few 
exceptions, they have 11T small sprockets, and the exceptions have 12.  
They generally have 2 tooth differences on the smallest sprockets, 
widening as you go down the block.   That may well be eminently suitable 
for a heavily loaded bike that has massive inertia and tends to slow 
down dramatically once the terrain starts to rise, but for a 
sprightly-feeling, light and lightly loaded road bike, most cyclists are 
happier to have as many 1-tooth shifts as possible, in order to have 
closely spaced gears.  If you're giving that up because you actually 
need those larger steps and those extreme high and low gears, then fine; 
but if you're giving them up and are getting in return gears that are 
too high and too low for your needs, that's no bargain.  It all depends 
on the bike, the terrain, the rider and the load.


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[dougP]

Tim:

I've not read some of the replies from recently but my 2 cents is to go 
with the Rivendell standard triple with a 24 tooth granny and the 12-36 
Shimano cassette.  While one may not use the lowest gear often, it is 
certainly nice to have & does not require giving up anything to get it.  A 
variety of factors can make such an extreme low gear useful:  health 
issues, age, gradients, altitude, loads, heat, you name it.  I've done 
several tours in your area and the San Juans, and those frequent short 
steep hills will have you often going for the low gears.  With modern 
drivetrains there is no sensible reason not to have wide range gearing on 
your bike.

dougP

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 12:16:50 AM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Thanks, Joe and Toshi.  I suspect I will be able to make good use of a 
> super low a gear.  I would have to go out of my way to do it, but there is 
> a climb here in the city of Anacortes, WA I would like to be able to do.  
> It averages 7% grade over only 0.3 miles, but has a section over 17% 
> grade.  At my current state, that is merely an aspiration.  There are a few 
> others of 6-7% grade over a few miles and even some over 10% grade for 1.5+ 
> miles and those are just on this little island.  Just north of me are some 
> 9+% grade for 3+ miles (along Chuckanut) and going just a bit east are the 
> Cascades and Mt. Baker, which will have even more intense climbs.  I wonder 
> how long it will be before I would feel comfortable attempting something 
> like those.  To give you a bit further of an idea of what is around me, 
> that is part of the Cascade 1200 route (http://www.cascade1200.com/), 
> which start/ends in Mt Vernon, only half an hour east of me.  Here is the 
> route and elevation for the last day of that ride:  
> https://ridewithgps.com/routes/13566556  So, with just a relatively short 
> drive, I can get way more punishment than I can handle.  :)
>
> Cheers!
>
> Tim
>
> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Joe Bernard  > wrote:
>
>> Absolutely, Toshi. My apartment is at the top of a short-but-steep hill, 
>> and it can be a bear at the end of a ride. That 24 x 34 combo means I can 
>> continue to spin instead of grinding out the last desperate mile. I love it.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, Joe and Toshi.  I suspect I will be able to make good use of a
super low a gear.  I would have to go out of my way to do it, but there is
a climb here in the city of Anacortes, WA I would like to be able to do.
It averages 7% grade over only 0.3 miles, but has a section over 17%
grade.  At my current state, that is merely an aspiration.  There are a few
others of 6-7% grade over a few miles and even some over 10% grade for 1.5+
miles and those are just on this little island.  Just north of me are some
9+% grade for 3+ miles (along Chuckanut) and going just a bit east are the
Cascades and Mt. Baker, which will have even more intense climbs.  I wonder
how long it will be before I would feel comfortable attempting something
like those.  To give you a bit further of an idea of what is around me,
that is part of the Cascade 1200 route (http://www.cascade1200.com/), which
start/ends in Mt Vernon, only half an hour east of me.  Here is the route
and elevation for the last day of that ride:
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/13566556  So, with just a relatively short
drive, I can get way more punishment than I can handle.  :)

Cheers!

Tim

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Absolutely, Toshi. My apartment is at the top of a short-but-steep hill,
> and it can be a bear at the end of a ride. That 24 x 34 combo means I can
> continue to spin instead of grinding out the last desperate mile. I love it.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

Absolutely, Toshi. My apartment is at the top of a short-but-steep hill, and it 
can be a bear at the end of a ride. That 24 x 34 combo means I can continue to 
spin instead of grinding out the last desperate mile. I love it. 

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I regularly do hilly rides and never felt like my 24 chainring with 34 cog
in the back is too low.  This feeling is especially true after a bunch of
riding and when I am really tired. A slow spinning ride certainly beats
walking up the hill for me. Whatever long or tired may be for each person
will be different, but when I reach that long and tired, I am happy to have
those low gears!

Toshi

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>>
>> 18" is a seriously low low gear.  If you're planning on climbing mountain
>> passes with 50 lb of luggage on your bike, you will come to really
>> appreciate an 18" low gear.  For unloaded riding, I'm not sure if you'll be
>> using it much.  At least, that's my experience.
>>
>
> Seriously low may be a good thing for me to start with as I'm seriously
> weak and inexperienced, not to mention still being quite a bit overweight
> at 220 lbs.  Here are some comparison points:  I have used the lowest gear
> of my unloaded AWOL on a relatively short slope (0.5mi, 57ft, 2.1% grade).
> Yeah, seriously weak, though it is getting easier and I didn't have to stop
> on the way up other than that first time.  My longest ride so far is only
> about 9.5 miles.  That started at a bit under an hour and is getting
> quicker.  I have done that 2-3 times in a week and even once during a 36
> hour fast.  My mileage total so far this year is only about 125, mostly in
> the past few months as I try to get ready for the AHH to arrive.  I expect
> that amount to be quickly surpassed once I get going on the AHH, especially
> once I venture further east out of Anacortes and start cruising around
> Skagit valley.
>
>
>> When you get on the road, pay attention to the gears you actually use.
>> The good news about cassettes is that they're wear items so you'll always
>> get another shot at choosing your gearing.
>>
>
> Good idea.  I'll try to remember that.  Now, I just need an easy way to
> figure out which gear I'm in while moving.  Where is the readout?  :)  I
> need to learn to pay attention to that detail so I don't have to guess or
> try to look.
>
> Those parts on my VO Randonneur have been in service, first on my
>> Rambouillet and then on the VO, for over 30,000 miles.
>
>
> That's the kind of mileage numbers I aspire to.  :)  It'll be quite a few
> years before I get there.  I did get a beginner century training plan on
> TrainingPeaks.  I need to build up to 20 mile rides before I start on it
> and will need to adjust recovery times for my 51 year old body.  But, those
> are shorter term goals to aspire to, first a metric century, then a
> century.  I'm not sure if I'll just do that on my own or try to keep up
> with a group or formal ride.
>
> Time to switch from theory to practice!
>
>
> Indeed!  Woo hoo!  :)
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 2:17:39 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> I like your Century Special 13-30 range.  That may be something for me to 
> aspire to.  I'm not really sure of what I need for a low gear.  I like the 
> idea of the 18 given my currently weakened state.  As I build strength and 
> endurance, a higher low gear that allows closer spacing may be preferred.  
> I guess I'll know when I get there.  :)
>

Another option is Shimano also sells its HG-50 9 speed cassette in 11-30 
with gear ratio: 11-12-14-16-18-20-23-26-30 teeth

Now, you may not need that 11t cog, but if your front rings are small, it 
could come in handly. Further, at about $18, it's a good deal too:

http://www.wiggle.com/shimano-hg50-9-speed-cassette/

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/shimano-sora-hg50-9-speed-road-cassette/rp-prod387

Good Luck!


On to some great news:  Now that I've selected the 3x9 with bar ends that 
> Riv stocks, my build should be done today and ship around Tuesday of next 
> week.  Yeah!  :D
>
> Thanks again everyone for the continued education.
>
> Tim
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 08/26/2016 04:43 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Steve Palincsar > > wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not seeing a 9 speed 12-36 cassette, although I do see a 12-34. 
>>>
>>
>> This page has the option for 9 speed 12-36t cassette.
>> http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/cs.htm
>>  
>>
>>
>> Ah.  I see it now.
>>
>> 12 - 14 - 16 - 18 - 21 - 24 - 28 - 32 - 36
>>
>> gives you this gearing with a "nominal 27 inch wheel"
>>
>> 54.0 81.0 103.5 
>> 46.3 69.4 88.7 
>> 40.5 60.8 77.6 
>> 36.0 54.0 69.0 
>> 30.9 46.3 59.1 
>> 27.0 40.5 51.8 
>> 23.1 34.7 44.4 
>> 20.3 30.4 38.8 
>> 18.0 27.0 34.5 
>> so that 122 or whatever must be an error of some sort.  103 is far more 
>> reasonable and usable, although to my taste, I'd prefer it a bit lower.
>>
>> Changing the 1st position sprocket to a 13 would give you this instead:
>>
>> 49.8 74.8 95.5 
>> 46.3 69.4 88.7 
>> 40.5 60.8 77.6 
>> 36.0 54.0 69.0 
>> 30.9 46.3 59.1 
>> 27.0 40.5 51.8 
>> 23.1 34.7 44.4 
>> 20.3 30.4 38.8 
>> 18.0 27.0 34.5 
>> Here's what my Century Special 13-30 looks like with those same chain 
>> rings:
>>
>> 49.8 74.8 95.5 
>> 46.3 69.4 88.7 
>> 43.2 64.8 82.8 
>> 38.1 57.2 73.1 
>> 34.1 51.2 65.4 
>> 30.9 46.3 59.1 
>> 27.0 40.5 51.8 
>> 24.0 36.0 46.0 
>> 21.6 32.4 41.4 
>> I have this on several bikes, some with 48 instead of 46 T big rings, 
>> some with 26 instead of 24T inner rings.  I really like the 95.5" top gear 
>> and the spacing between the top gear and the next one down.  
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
> 18" is a seriously low low gear.  If you're planning on climbing mountain
> passes with 50 lb of luggage on your bike, you will come to really
> appreciate an 18" low gear.  For unloaded riding, I'm not sure if you'll be
> using it much.  At least, that's my experience.
>

Seriously low may be a good thing for me to start with as I'm seriously
weak and inexperienced, not to mention still being quite a bit overweight
at 220 lbs.  Here are some comparison points:  I have used the lowest gear
of my unloaded AWOL on a relatively short slope (0.5mi, 57ft, 2.1% grade).
Yeah, seriously weak, though it is getting easier and I didn't have to stop
on the way up other than that first time.  My longest ride so far is only
about 9.5 miles.  That started at a bit under an hour and is getting
quicker.  I have done that 2-3 times in a week and even once during a 36
hour fast.  My mileage total so far this year is only about 125, mostly in
the past few months as I try to get ready for the AHH to arrive.  I expect
that amount to be quickly surpassed once I get going on the AHH, especially
once I venture further east out of Anacortes and start cruising around
Skagit valley.


> When you get on the road, pay attention to the gears you actually use.
> The good news about cassettes is that they're wear items so you'll always
> get another shot at choosing your gearing.
>

Good idea.  I'll try to remember that.  Now, I just need an easy way to
figure out which gear I'm in while moving.  Where is the readout?  :)  I
need to learn to pay attention to that detail so I don't have to guess or
try to look.

Those parts on my VO Randonneur have been in service, first on my
> Rambouillet and then on the VO, for over 30,000 miles.


That's the kind of mileage numbers I aspire to.  :)  It'll be quite a few
years before I get there.  I did get a beginner century training plan on
TrainingPeaks.  I need to build up to 20 mile rides before I start on it
and will need to adjust recovery times for my 51 year old body.  But, those
are shorter term goals to aspire to, first a metric century, then a
century.  I'm not sure if I'll just do that on my own or try to keep up
with a group or formal ride.

Time to switch from theory to practice!


Indeed!  Woo hoo!  :)

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/26/2016 05:17 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,

I like your Century Special 13-30 range.  That may be something for me 
to aspire to.  I'm not really sure of what I need for a low gear.  I 
like the idea of the 18 given my currently weakened state.  As I build 
strength and endurance, a higher low gear that allows closer spacing 
may be preferred.  I guess I'll know when I get there.  :)


18" is a seriously low low gear.  If you're planning on climbing 
mountain passes with 50 lb of luggage on your bike, you will come to 
really appreciate an 18" low gear.  For unloaded riding, I'm not sure if 
you'll be using it much.  At least, that's my experience.


When you get on the road, pay attention to the gears you actually use.  
The good news about cassettes is that they're wear items so you'll 
always get another shot at choosing your gearing.


Incidentally, if you ever do decide to try Harris' Century Special, for 
replacements you can keep using the 1st position 13 and the flat 30, and 
modify the stock 12-27 cassette by yourself.  Neither the 13 nor the 30 
are used enough to get serious wear.  Those parts on my VO Randonneur 
have been in service, first on my Rambouillet and then on the VO, for 
over 30,000 miles.





On to some great news:  Now that I've selected the 3x9 with bar ends 
that Riv stocks, my build should be done today and ship around Tuesday 
of next week.  Yeah!  :D


Time to switch from theory to practice!


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Pics next week!


Ah, anticipation!  :)

To quote Brian, "It's so sharp looking, I doubt any accessories could
diminish its charm."

It's supposed to ship around Tuesday.  I'm not sure when it will arrive in
WA state or how long it will take me to assemble it once I get it.  It'll
be a bit tight assembling it in my very limited space, so I hope that goes
quickly.  Maybe I can get it assembled and some pics taken by the following
weekend.  Maybe.  No promises, though.  :)  I'll try to remember to get a
couple sets of pics, before accessories and after.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

Pics next week!

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Steve,

I like your Century Special 13-30 range.  That may be something for me to
aspire to.  I'm not really sure of what I need for a low gear.  I like the
idea of the 18 given my currently weakened state.  As I build strength and
endurance, a higher low gear that allows closer spacing may be preferred.
I guess I'll know when I get there.  :)

On to some great news:  Now that I've selected the 3x9 with bar ends that
Riv stocks, my build should be done today and ship around Tuesday of next
week.  Yeah!  :D

Thanks again everyone for the continued education.

Tim

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
>
> On 08/26/2016 04:43 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Steve Palincsar 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not seeing a 9 speed 12-36 cassette, although I do see a 12-34.
>>
>
> This page has the option for 9 speed 12-36t cassette.
> http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/cs.htm
>
>
>
> Ah.  I see it now.
>
> 12 - 14 - 16 - 18 - 21 - 24 - 28 - 32 - 36
>
> gives you this gearing with a "nominal 27 inch wheel"
>
> 54.0 81.0 103.5
> 46.3 69.4 88.7
> 40.5 60.8 77.6
> 36.0 54.0 69.0
> 30.9 46.3 59.1
> 27.0 40.5 51.8
> 23.1 34.7 44.4
> 20.3 30.4 38.8
> 18.0 27.0 34.5
> so that 122 or whatever must be an error of some sort.  103 is far more
> reasonable and usable, although to my taste, I'd prefer it a bit lower.
>
> Changing the 1st position sprocket to a 13 would give you this instead:
>
> 49.8 74.8 95.5
> 46.3 69.4 88.7
> 40.5 60.8 77.6
> 36.0 54.0 69.0
> 30.9 46.3 59.1
> 27.0 40.5 51.8
> 23.1 34.7 44.4
> 20.3 30.4 38.8
> 18.0 27.0 34.5
> Here's what my Century Special 13-30 looks like with those same chain
> rings:
>
> 49.8 74.8 95.5
> 46.3 69.4 88.7
> 43.2 64.8 82.8
> 38.1 57.2 73.1
> 34.1 51.2 65.4
> 30.9 46.3 59.1
> 27.0 40.5 51.8
> 24.0 36.0 46.0
> 21.6 32.4 41.4
> I have this on several bikes, some with 48 instead of 46 T big rings, some
> with 26 instead of 24T inner rings.  I really like the 95.5" top gear and
> the spacing between the top gear and the next one down.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/26/2016 04:43 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:


I'm not seeing a 9 speed 12-36 cassette, although I do see a 12-34.


This page has the option for 9 speed 12-36t cassette.
http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/cs.htm



Ah.  I see it now.

12 - 14 - 16 - 18 - 21 - 24 - 28 - 32 - 36

gives you this gearing with a "nominal 27 inch wheel"

54.081.0103.5
46.369.488.7
40.560.877.6
36.054.069.0
30.946.359.1
27.040.551.8
23.134.744.4
20.330.438.8
18.027.034.5


so that 122 or whatever must be an error of some sort.  103 is far more 
reasonable and usable, although to my taste, I'd prefer it a bit lower.


Changing the 1st position sprocket to a 13 would give you this instead:

49.874.895.5
46.369.488.7
40.560.877.6
36.054.069.0
30.946.359.1
27.040.551.8
23.134.744.4
20.330.438.8
18.027.034.5


Here's what my Century Special 13-30 looks like with those same chain rings:

49.874.895.5
46.369.488.7
43.264.882.8
38.157.273.1
34.151.265.4
30.946.359.1
27.040.551.8
24.036.046.0
21.632.441.4


I have this on several bikes, some with 48 instead of 46 T big rings, 
some with 26 instead of 24T inner rings.  I really like the 95.5" top 
gear and the spacing between the top gear and the next one down.


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:02 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> Tim, you'll do great with 9 or 10. And, if you like the barend shifters
> but don't like their position, there's always the stem adapter to put them
> there. I have that setup on my Betty and love it as well.
>
> https://flic.kr/p/dKDmnB
> https://flic.kr/p/e2CSkU
>

That's neat.  Thanks for the pics.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> I'm not seeing a 9 speed 12-36 cassette, although I do see a 12-34.
>

This page has the option for 9 speed 12-36t cassette.
http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/cs.htm

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/26/2016 04:02 PM, René Sterental wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for enlightening me. I had done all my 10 speed conversions 
with either the XT 9 speed rear derailleur or the road Sun XCD.


As everyone else pointed out really well, 10 speeds with either 
downtube or barend shifters works very well provided you stick to a 
road 10 or MTB 9 speed rear derailleur.


I guess I as lucky I didn't have a dynasys rear derailleur.


Shimano claims they made the change in cable pull on those dynasys rear 
derailleurs to improve shifting, not to counfound those of us who have 
been using their MTB rear derailleurs to handle larger sprockets on road 
bikes.  It just happens to work out that way.


That's not the only incompatibility found on "modern" bikes to stand in 
the way of lowering gearing.  A friend in the local club put a brand new 
2015 (leftover) Specialized Ruby for sale because the low gear wasn't 
low enough and two shops told her it couldn't be changed.  Points of 
incompatibility:


- BB30 bottom bracket limits choice of cranksets

- Front derailleur mounts on a tab on the seat tube whose slot is set so 
that at the correct height for a 50T chain ring the derailleur is as low 
as it will go.  Lots of room to go up for larger chain rings (you could 
easily fit a 56T on there) but nowhere to go down


- 11 speed derailleurs have different cable pull from both 10 and 
earlier rear derailleurs, and also different from Dynasys MTB


- long cage road 11 speed rear derailleur designed for 32T largest rear 
sprocket


- Wolf Tooth Road Link derailleur hanger extension will reposition an 11 
spd rear derailleur to clear a 40T sprocket (on the XTR M9000 11-40 
cassette) but that exceeds the capacity of the rear derailleur, won't 
work with 16T difference in chain rings, but will work fine with less 
difference but you can't move the rear derailleur down to fit a smaller 
big ring thanks to the front derailleur mounting slot noted above, and 
what would be the point of a larger small chainring if the point of the 
exercise was to lower the low gear?


- and some of the latest 11 spd MTB rear derailleurs don't mount on a 
derailleur hanger at all, and so are entirely incompatible with "our" 
style frames.  "Direct mount," they're called.  They're about 
thru-axles.  Just one more thing to steer clear of if you're trying to 
find your way to lower gears in spite of The System. 
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Shimano-Officially-Introduces-Direct-Mount-Rear-Derailleurs.html


It was a lot like being trapped in a maze, with no way out.  But then we 
learned about the TanPan, which adapts an 11spd Dynasys MTB rear 
derailleurs to 11 speed brifters -- and those Dynasys MTB rear 
derailleurs will handle that 11-40 cassette natively, no need to 
reposition the derailleur, play with longer B screws, or anything else.


And during the course of this bug hunt, I discovered that it is possible 
now to adapt DI2 to handle those 11-40 cassettes as well, with a MTB DI2 
rear derailleur.  Not that such gear would be of much interest to 
members of this discussion group; but it does demonstrate that we are 
not the only ones in search of gearing down to the low 20s for our road 
bikes (the woman with this setup is well known on the Randon list).







Tim, you'll do great with 9 or 10. And, if you like the barend 
shifters but don't like their position, there's always the stem 
adapter to put them there. I have that setup on my Betty and love it 
as well.


https://flic.kr/p/dKDmnB
https://flic.kr/p/e2CSkU

René

On Friday, August 26, 2016, Joe Bernard > wrote:


Steve: This is definitely the issue for me. High bars and short
arms make dt shifters just about useless. And the only time I have
"hit the knee" problems with bar-ends is on pullback bars like
Albas..they're fine on drops.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

Steve,

Thanks for enlightening me. I had done all my 10 speed conversions with
either the XT 9 speed rear derailleur or the road Sun XCD.

As everyone else pointed out really well, 10 speeds with either downtube or
barend shifters works very well provided you stick to a road 10 or MTB 9
speed rear derailleur.

I guess I as lucky I didn't have a dynasys rear derailleur.

Tim, you'll do great with 9 or 10. And, if you like the barend shifters but
don't like their position, there's always the stem adapter to put them
there. I have that setup on my Betty and love it as well.

https://flic.kr/p/dKDmnB
https://flic.kr/p/e2CSkU

René

On Friday, August 26, 2016, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Steve: This is definitely the issue for me. High bars and short arms make
> dt shifters just about useless. And the only time I have "hit the knee"
> problems with bar-ends is on pullback bars like Albas..they're fine on
> drops.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

In the olde days indexing didn't work all that well anyway.


On 08/26/2016 09:30 AM, Lungimsam wrote:

I just read an article that said that in the olde days beginners would use 
indexing until they! were experienced enough to switch to friction.



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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/26/2016 11:40 AM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 5:29 AM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:


What is your use case for a 122 inch high gear?


I have no use for much of anything over 100.  That was just what came 
up on the gear calculator when I combined 24-36-46 chainrings with a 
9/12-36 cassette, though the tire size or something else could have 
been off to get it that high.





I'm not seeing a 9 speed 12-36 cassette, although I do see a 12-34. In 
any case, you could remove the 1st position 12 and replace it with a 1st 
position 13 and bring that high gear down where it belongs, to ~ 100", 
very easily.


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 5:29 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
> Really, these days that's not what you need to worry about.  Indexing
> failures that you need to switch to friction to work around are rare as
> hens teeth today.
>

I'm not worried about this.  It was just one item mentioned by Brian.  So,
I passed it on.  It will be many years before I have mileage sufficient to
wear out anything.  All I am likely to get is a bit of cable stretch and a
need to adjust the barrel.

What is your use case for a 122 inch high gear?
>

I have no use for much of anything over 100.  That was just what came up on
the gear calculator when I combined 24-36-46 chainrings with a 9/12-36
cassette, though the tire size or something else could have been off to get
it that high.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 11:54 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> What is "radar taillight" ?


It is a tail light that has a rear facing radar built into it.  As a
vehicle approach from behind, the tail light expands from a narrow led
light to a wide led light.  There is also a readout on the display, or bike
computer in my case, that provides an indication of how far back the
vehicle is.

Here is the item:
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/into-sports/cycling/varia-rearview-radar/prod518151.html

And review:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/10/garmin-varia-radar-review.html

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Brian Campbell]

Thanks for the info! As for the "great indexing reliability ruse" I am with 
you 100%. I use down tube shifters, rather than brifter for the reason you 
stated previously. I have set bike up with 10 speed friction using shimano 
bar ends and while workable, it was too sensitive for my ham handed 
shifting. 

On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 9:35:09 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 08/26/2016 09:21 AM, Brian Campbell wrote: 
> > FWIW, I use a 12-30 Ultegra cassette, 10 Speed, 10 speed indexed Dura 
> > Ace down tube shifters and an Ultegra long cage rear derailleur, 6603, 
> > with 46/30 chain rings and it all works really well. 
>
> 100% totally compatible, designed to work together components there, so 
> it would be shocking if they didn't work together perfectly.  You could 
> even push that to a 32T large sprocket and it would all still be within 
> design specs.  If you needed to, you could push that rear derailleur a 
> bit farther with a Wolftooth Road Link, which is basically an extension 
> to the dropout to set the rear derailleur a bit lower, allowing it to 
> clear a 40T sprocket, but you'd need to take care to not exceed the 
> maximum capacity of the derailleur, which IIRC Wolftooth says is around 
> 39T.  This isn't too important with 10 speed setups, because the 8/9 spd 
> MTB derailleur hack works so well, but when you go to 11 it gets more 
> complicated and pushing road rear derailleurs becomes more important. 
>
> > 
> > Also with the Dura Ace 10 speed down tube shifters "not " having a 
> > friction mode is not an issue. All that needs to be done to put the 
> > shifter in friction mode is to back the mounting screw off a couple of 
> > turns and in an emergency, it will shift with no problem. I tried this 
> > after reading it on the internet and it works well enough that I no 
> > longer think about having a specific friction mode in case of 
> > "emergencies that that never actually happen". 
>
> That sort of problem used to happen much more often back in the day.  I 
> had a 7 speed indexing failure on a tour one time riding in the rain, 
> and switching to friction mode was my salvation.  But things have 
> improved and become much more reliable since then. What's more, it's 
> anybody's guess if you could successfully work 10 speed friction even if 
> it was available; my ability to friction shift extends no farther than 7 
> and maybe 8, while others seem to have better luck with 8 and even higher. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Lungimsam]

I like frictioning with 7-speed and highly recommend it. Sunxcd rear derailer, 
microshift 9- speed fd triple , Silver shifters, XD2 crankset, HG50 7-speed 
cassette 13-30T, SRAM PC870 chain, 4.5mm spacer for cassette on shimano type 
freehub on 135mm rear wheel. It is an all silver colored drivetrain, to boot.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/26/2016 09:21 AM, Brian Campbell wrote:
FWIW, I use a 12-30 Ultegra cassette, 10 Speed, 10 speed indexed Dura 
Ace down tube shifters and an Ultegra long cage rear derailleur, 6603, 
with 46/30 chain rings and it all works really well.


100% totally compatible, designed to work together components there, so 
it would be shocking if they didn't work together perfectly.  You could 
even push that to a 32T large sprocket and it would all still be within 
design specs.  If you needed to, you could push that rear derailleur a 
bit farther with a Wolftooth Road Link, which is basically an extension 
to the dropout to set the rear derailleur a bit lower, allowing it to 
clear a 40T sprocket, but you'd need to take care to not exceed the 
maximum capacity of the derailleur, which IIRC Wolftooth says is around 
39T.  This isn't too important with 10 speed setups, because the 8/9 spd 
MTB derailleur hack works so well, but when you go to 11 it gets more 
complicated and pushing road rear derailleurs becomes more important.




Also with the Dura Ace 10 speed down tube shifters "not " having a 
friction mode is not an issue. All that needs to be done to put the 
shifter in friction mode is to back the mounting screw off a couple of 
turns and in an emergency, it will shift with no problem. I tried this 
after reading it on the internet and it works well enough that I no 
longer think about having a specific friction mode in case of 
"emergencies that that never actually happen".


That sort of problem used to happen much more often back in the day.  I 
had a 7 speed indexing failure on a tour one time riding in the rain, 
and switching to friction mode was my salvation.  But things have 
improved and become much more reliable since then. What's more, it's 
anybody's guess if you could successfully work 10 speed friction even if 
it was available; my ability to friction shift extends no farther than 7 
and maybe 8, while others seem to have better luck with 8 and even higher.



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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Lungimsam]

I just read an article that said that in the olde days beginners would use 
indexing until they! were experienced enough to switch to friction. 

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Brian Campbell]

FWIW, I use a 12-30 Ultegra cassette, 10 Speed, 10 speed indexed Dura Ace 
down tube shifters and an Ultegra long cage rear derailleur, 6603, with 
46/30 chain rings and it all works really well. 

Also with the Dura Ace 10 speed down tube shifters "not " having a friction 
mode is not an issue. All that needs to be done to put the shifter in 
friction mode is to back the mounting screw off a couple of turns and in an 
emergency, it will shift with no problem. I tried this after reading it on 
the internet and it works well enough that I no longer think about having a 
specific friction mode in case of "emergencies that that never actually 
happen".

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

This is absolutely wrong.


On 08/26/2016 12:21 AM, René Sterental wrote:
The Shimano changes only apply to brifters or MTB shifters where in 10 
speeds you cannot mix. Not to barend shifters or downtube shifters. 
The front is still friction and the rear is indexed correctly for both 
9 or 10 speeds. And the derailleurs are irrelevant.


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

DynaSys is incompatible with all Shimano indexed road shifters, 
regardless of where they are mounted, because they changed the cable 
pull to make it so.  That can be corrected with a device such as the 
Wolftooth TanPan that alters the cable pull.



On 08/26/2016 01:03 AM, Joe Bernard wrote:

I don't think that's right, René. If a 10-speed brifter won't index a Dyna-Sis 
derailer, other 10-speed road shifters shouldn't, either.



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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/26/2016 01:19 AM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Thanks, all, for the replies.

I think part of the issue was the Dura Ace 7900 down tube shifters are 
indexed and that road indexing did not match the mountain rear 
derailleur.  If there as an indexing failure, I couldn't fall back to 
friction.


Really, these days that's not what you need to worry about. Indexing 
failures that you need to switch to friction to work around are rare as 
hens teeth today.  What's not rare with indexed integrated brake-shift 
levers (see, I didn't say "brifters") is cable fraying and breakage 
inside the STI unit.  That happens a lot with STI.  It almost never 
happens with downtube shifters, and if there was cable fraying going on 
with downtube shifters it's all right there out in the open where you 
can see it (rather than hidden inside the bowels of the unit, where you 
cannot) and deal with it when the first strand breaks, rather than 
discovering it only after the cable has completely broken.


It is possible that the Wolftooth TanPan might induce cable fraying.  
It's very similar to the Travel Agent devices that make V brakes 
compatible with road brake levers, so perhaps someone with experience 
with that device can speak to this.  I have a friend who has used V 
brakes with STI on her Seven touring bike for must be 10 years now or 
more, and she's never mentioned a problem, so absent reports to the 
contrary I assume it's OK.



I read through this article from that discussed a lot of these 
issues.  It is from last November, so not too far out of date.
http://www.cyclingabout.com/wider-gear-range-road-shifters-gears-for-easier-hill-climbing/ 



That article linked to this resource:
http://www.cyclingabout.com/gear-ratios-how-to-select-touring-bike-gearing/

I could try to have Brian get something working, but it might end up 
being a hack that didn't work


It's all a hack -- in a good way.  You are meant to be using narrow 
range racing gearing and if it doesn't work for you you're not supposed 
to be riding and tough darts to you.  Anything else is a hack.  Get used 
to it. :-)



and may require more than one attempt.  I'm not sure it is worth it at 
this point when there is a known good recommended solution that has 
been in successful long term use.


It's not quite the dream I originally had, but I emailed Brian to go 
ahead with the 3x9 and bar ends.  It will give me a gear range of 
about 19 - 122 inches.  If it proves too problematic for me to adjust 
to, I can always change it later.  Or, if it turns out I really can't 
stand it not living up to my expectations, it will be a standard Riv 
setup for easier sale.  I can't really imagine that happening, 
though.  It might turn out to fit well with my retro-tech setup, 
9-speed with radar tail light and bike computer.  :)


What is your use case for a 122 inch high gear?


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

What is "radar taillight" ?

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, all, for the replies.

I think part of the issue was the Dura Ace 7900 down tube shifters are
indexed and that road indexing did not match the mountain rear derailleur.
If there as an indexing failure, I couldn't fall back to friction.  I read
through this article from that discussed a lot of these issues.  It is from
last November, so not too far out of date.
http://www.cyclingabout.com/wider-gear-range-road-shifters-gears-for-easier-
hill-climbing/

That article linked to this resource:
http://www.cyclingabout.com/gear-ratios-how-to-select-touring-bike-gearing/

I could try to have Brian get something working, but it might end up being
a hack that didn't work and may require more than one attempt.  I'm not
sure it is worth it at this point when there is a known good recommended
solution that has been in successful long term use.

It's not quite the dream I originally had, but I emailed Brian to go ahead
with the 3x9 and bar ends.  It will give me a gear range of about 19 - 122
inches.  If it proves too problematic for me to adjust to, I can always
change it later.  Or, if it turns out I really can't stand it not living up
to my expectations, it will be a standard Riv setup for easier sale.  I
can't really imagine that happening, though.  It might turn out to fit well
with my retro-tech setup, 9-speed with radar tail light and bike computer.
 :)

Thanks again.

Tim


On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 9:21 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> The Shimano changes only apply to brifters or MTB shifters where in 10
> speeds you cannot mix. Not to barend shifters or downtube shifters. The
> front is still friction and the rear is indexed correctly for both 9 or 10
> speeds. And the derailleurs are irrelevant.
>
> René
>
> On Thursday, August 25, 2016, René Sterental  wrote:
>
>> Tim,
>>
>> I haven't tied den thie whole thread, but I have that exact setup in my
>> Atlantis and it works perfectly. Shimano 10 speed downtube shifters, front
>> road crankset, now René Herse, triple chainrings, had Shimano XT rear
>> derailleur but switched to Sun XCD front and rear derailleurs for the all
>> silver look, shifts flawlessly. Went with rear 10 speed cogset of 11-34 for
>> the slightly tighter ratios but had the 11-36 first.
>>
>> It does work.
>>
>> René
>>
>> On Thursday, August 25, 2016, Scott McLain 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tim,
>>> Steve is correct.  This winter I talked a friend of mine into going on a
>>> week long self supported tour.  He ran out and bought an LHT frame and then
>>> started buying parts for it.  He ended up with a 10 speed mess.  I run a
>>> 9-speed mountain cassette, rear der, and road bar end shifter.  He was
>>> trying to do the same, but with 10-speed.  He came to me when it didn't
>>> work and I was stumped.  He just figured he would be going friction
>>> shifting from then on.  I dug in and researched the problem.  Shimano
>>> changed the ratio of cable pull to deraileur movement on their 10-speed
>>> mountain but left their road alone.  So the way to look at it is Shimano
>>> 8,9,&10 speed road shifters will work with 8 and 9 speed mountain
>>> deraileurs and 8, 9, and 10 road or mountain cassettes.  My buddy took an
>>> 8-speed derailleur off his old mountain bike and put it on his 10-speed
>>> system and it worked great.  I am planning on sticking with 9-speed.  It
>>> all works and you can still buy all the pieces new.
>>>
>>> I have 8-speed silver friction on my AHH.  I like it.  It kind of goes
>>> with the AHH attitude.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 8:38:33 PM UTC-6, Tim Butterfield wrote:

 I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
 first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
 sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
 purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
 was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos
 /timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

 Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
 using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
 Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
 Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
 definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos
 /timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428

 It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
 real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
 Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
 but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
 the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
 abilities further, expand the bike to fit new 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think that's right, René. If a 10-speed brifter won't index a Dyna-Sis 
derailer, other 10-speed road shifters shouldn't, either.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

The Shimano changes only apply to brifters or MTB shifters where in 10
speeds you cannot mix. Not to barend shifters or downtube shifters. The
front is still friction and the rear is indexed correctly for both 9 or 10
speeds. And the derailleurs are irrelevant.

René
On Thursday, August 25, 2016, René Sterental  wrote:

> Tim,
>
> I haven't tied den thie whole thread, but I have that exact setup in my
> Atlantis and it works perfectly. Shimano 10 speed downtube shifters, front
> road crankset, now René Herse, triple chainrings, had Shimano XT rear
> derailleur but switched to Sun XCD front and rear derailleurs for the all
> silver look, shifts flawlessly. Went with rear 10 speed cogset of 11-34 for
> the slightly tighter ratios but had the 11-36 first.
>
> It does work.
>
> René
>
> On Thursday, August 25, 2016, Scott McLain  > wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>> Steve is correct.  This winter I talked a friend of mine into going on a
>> week long self supported tour.  He ran out and bought an LHT frame and then
>> started buying parts for it.  He ended up with a 10 speed mess.  I run a
>> 9-speed mountain cassette, rear der, and road bar end shifter.  He was
>> trying to do the same, but with 10-speed.  He came to me when it didn't
>> work and I was stumped.  He just figured he would be going friction
>> shifting from then on.  I dug in and researched the problem.  Shimano
>> changed the ratio of cable pull to deraileur movement on their 10-speed
>> mountain but left their road alone.  So the way to look at it is Shimano
>> 8,9,&10 speed road shifters will work with 8 and 9 speed mountain
>> deraileurs and 8, 9, and 10 road or mountain cassettes.  My buddy took an
>> 8-speed derailleur off his old mountain bike and put it on his 10-speed
>> system and it worked great.  I am planning on sticking with 9-speed.  It
>> all works and you can still buy all the pieces new.
>>
>> I have 8-speed silver friction on my AHH.  I like it.  It kind of goes
>> with the AHH attitude.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 8:38:33 PM UTC-6, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
>>> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
>>> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
>>> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
>>> was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos
>>> /timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>>>
>>> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
>>> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
>>> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
>>> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
>>> definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos
>>> /timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>>>
>>> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
>>> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
>>> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
>>> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
>>> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
>>> the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
>>> abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks
>>> without having to change frames.
>>>
>>> So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two
>>> mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was
>>> more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs
>>> and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much,
>>> I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It
>>> looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I
>>> expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But,
>>> using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work
>>> with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and
>>> cons of each.
>>>
>>> With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some
>>> RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.
>>>
>>> My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer
>>> distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I
>>> pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are
>>> there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv
>>> locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but
>>> don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any advice you have.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

Tim,

I haven't tied den thie whole thread, but I have that exact setup in my
Atlantis and it works perfectly. Shimano 10 speed downtube shifters, front
road crankset, now René Herse, triple chainrings, had Shimano XT rear
derailleur but switched to Sun XCD front and rear derailleurs for the all
silver look, shifts flawlessly. Went with rear 10 speed cogset of 11-34 for
the slightly tighter ratios but had the 11-36 first.

It does work.

René

On Thursday, August 25, 2016, Scott McLain  wrote:

> Hi Tim,
> Steve is correct.  This winter I talked a friend of mine into going on a
> week long self supported tour.  He ran out and bought an LHT frame and then
> started buying parts for it.  He ended up with a 10 speed mess.  I run a
> 9-speed mountain cassette, rear der, and road bar end shifter.  He was
> trying to do the same, but with 10-speed.  He came to me when it didn't
> work and I was stumped.  He just figured he would be going friction
> shifting from then on.  I dug in and researched the problem.  Shimano
> changed the ratio of cable pull to deraileur movement on their 10-speed
> mountain but left their road alone.  So the way to look at it is Shimano
> 8,9,&10 speed road shifters will work with 8 and 9 speed mountain
> deraileurs and 8, 9, and 10 road or mountain cassettes.  My buddy took an
> 8-speed derailleur off his old mountain bike and put it on his 10-speed
> system and it worked great.  I am planning on sticking with 9-speed.  It
> all works and you can still buy all the pieces new.
>
> I have 8-speed silver friction on my AHH.  I like it.  It kind of goes
> with the AHH attitude.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 8:38:33 PM UTC-6, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
>> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
>> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
>> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
>> was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos
>> /timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>>
>> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
>> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
>> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
>> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
>> definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos
>> /timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>>
>> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
>> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
>> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
>> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
>> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
>> the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
>> abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks
>> without having to change frames.
>>
>> So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two
>> mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was
>> more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs
>> and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much,
>> I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It
>> looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I
>> expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But,
>> using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work
>> with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and
>> cons of each.
>>
>> With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some
>> RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.
>>
>> My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer
>> distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I
>> pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are
>> there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv
>> locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but
>> don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?
>>
>> Thanks for any advice you have.
>>
>> Tim
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

Not all love turns out good in the end.  Look at Romeo & Juliet.  Or 
Oedipus & his mom.  But that's not the case with BES.



On 08/25/2016 10:06 PM, Eric Norris wrote:

Yeah, but Apollonia ends up blowing up, and Michael goes bad … real bad.

--Eric N
campyonly...@me.com 
www.CampyOnly.com 
Campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
@Campyonlyguy


On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:03 PM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:


There isn't a thing in the world wrong with 9 speed.  You can even 
customize it: most of my bikes run 13-30, and all but one of those 
are Sheldon's Century Special 12-27s turned into 13-30s by removing 
the 12, replacing the 13 with a 1st position 13 and adding a flat 30 
behind the 27.  I use them with 24 or 26 / 36 / 46 or 48, giving me a 
gear range of ~97" high down to ~22" low, with a 32" low on the 
middle ring.  That might not suit your gearing needs & preferences, 
but it sure works for me.


As for shifters, I love bar ends.  My first exposure to them, back in 
1975, was just like the moment in Godfather I when Michael Corleone 
first sees Appolonia.  Love at first shift, and they will have to pry 
my cold dead hands off of them.  YMMV.



On 08/25/2016 07:17 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,
I heard from Brian, who is doing my build.  There is also an issue 
with the narrow 10 speed chain falling between the chainrings.  
Brian is recommending the 3x9 with bar end shifters and I'm going 
with that.  I'll ask about that Audax shifter location and see what 
he says.


Thanks.

Tim

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Tim Butterfield 
> wrote:


Steve,
That sounds about right.  I'm glad there is a fix for it.  I'm
thinking of going with the recommended 3x9 option.  As for
shifter location, if not down tube, I'm not sure I want bar
ends.  I shouldn't have any knee collisions with the Nitto
Noodle, but I'm not sure.  This "not quite a brifter" option
looks interesting: http://gevenalle.com/product/audax/


Tim


On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Steve Palincsar
> wrote:


On 08/25/2016 06:19 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure of the exact wording
used to describe the problem.  Part was related to the
Dura Ace 7900 down tube shifter being road and the rear
derailleur and 10 speed 12-36 cassette being mountain.


In other words, you have a Dyna Sys MTB 10 speed rear
derailleur, whose cable pull is incompatible with 10 speed
Shimano road shifters of every kind. Wolf Tooth TanPan will
fix that.  Or, use a 9 speed Shimano MTB rear derailleur,
which has compatible cable pull and will handle that 10
speed chain perfectly well (lots of my friends are using
that setup).


http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/what-shimano-rear-mtb-derailleur-use-road-10-speed-shifters-39865.html



https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/2f7o7l/will_dura_ace_7900_bar_end_shifters_be_compatible/


http://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/roadmtb-10sp-shimano-incompati


There might have something else about that combination
with the Sugino XD2 triple crank, maybe related to the
10-speed chain.  I forget exactly. There was too much to
take in and process all at once and my sponge
overflowed. :)  I'll pass the Tanpan idea on to Roman to
see if that might help any.


If it were me, I'd go with the 8 or 9 speed MTB derailleur. 
Of course, the fact that I have a couple of them in my parts

box makes that an easy choice.

Be glad you don't have 11 speed.  That gets weirder still.


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Eric Norris]

Yeah, but Apollonia ends up blowing up, and Michael goes bad … real bad. 

--Eric N
campyonly...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
@Campyonlyguy


> On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:03 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> 
> There isn't a thing in the world wrong with 9 speed.  You can even customize 
> it: most of my bikes run 13-30, and all but one of those are Sheldon's 
> Century Special 12-27s turned into 13-30s by removing the 12, replacing the 
> 13 with a 1st position 13 and adding a flat 30 behind the 27.  I use them 
> with 24 or 26 / 36 / 46 or 48, giving me a gear range of ~97" high down to 
> ~22" low, with a 32" low on the middle ring.  That might not suit your 
> gearing needs & preferences, but it sure works for me.  
> As for shifters, I love bar ends.  My first exposure to them, back in 1975, 
> was just like the moment in Godfather I when Michael Corleone first sees 
> Appolonia.  Love at first shift, and they will have to pry my cold dead hands 
> off of them.  YMMV.
> 
> On 08/25/2016 07:17 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>> Steve,
>> I heard from Brian, who is doing my build.  There is also an issue with the 
>> narrow 10 speed chain falling between the chainrings.  Brian is recommending 
>> the 3x9 with bar end shifters and I'm going with that.  I'll ask about that 
>> Audax shifter location and see what he says.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Tim
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Tim Butterfield > > wrote:
>> Steve,
>> That sounds about right.  I'm glad there is a fix for it.  I'm thinking of 
>> going with the recommended 3x9 option.  As for shifter location, if not down 
>> tube, I'm not sure I want bar ends.  I shouldn't have any knee collisions 
>> with the Nitto Noodle, but I'm not sure.  This "not quite a brifter" option 
>> looks interesting:  http://gevenalle.com/product/audax/ 
>> 
>> 
>> Tim
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Steve Palincsar > > wrote:
>> 
>> On 08/25/2016 06:19 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>> Steve,
>> 
>> Thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure of the exact wording used to describe 
>> the problem.  Part was related to the Dura Ace 7900 down tube shifter being 
>> road and the rear derailleur and 10 speed 12-36 cassette being mountain.
>> 
>> In other words, you have a Dyna Sys MTB 10 speed rear derailleur, whose 
>> cable pull is incompatible with 10 speed Shimano road shifters of every 
>> kind.  Wolf Tooth TanPan will fix that.  Or, use a 9 speed Shimano MTB rear 
>> derailleur, which has compatible cable pull and will handle that 10 speed 
>> chain perfectly well (lots of my friends are using that setup).
>> 
>> http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/what-shimano-rear-mtb-derailleur-use-road-10-speed-shifters-39865.html
>>  
>> 
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/2f7o7l/will_dura_ace_7900_bar_end_shifters_be_compatible/
>>  
>> 
>> http://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/roadmtb-10sp-shimano-incompati 
>> 
>> 
>> There might have something else about that combination with the Sugino XD2 
>> triple crank, maybe related to the 10-speed chain.  I forget exactly.  There 
>> was too much to take in and process all at once and my sponge overflowed. :) 
>>  I'll pass the Tanpan idea on to Roman to see if that might help any.
>> 
>> 
>> If it were me, I'd go with the 8 or 9 speed MTB derailleur.  Of course, the 
>> fact that I have a couple of them in my parts box makes that an easy choice.
>> 
>> Be glad you don't have 11 speed.  That gets weirder still.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

There isn't a thing in the world wrong with 9 speed.  You can even 
customize it: most of my bikes run 13-30, and all but one of those are 
Sheldon's Century Special 12-27s turned into 13-30s by removing the 12, 
replacing the 13 with a 1st position 13 and adding a flat 30 behind the 
27.  I use them with 24 or 26 / 36 / 46 or 48, giving me a gear range of 
~97" high down to ~22" low, with a 32" low on the middle ring.  That 
might not suit your gearing needs & preferences, but it sure works for me.


As for shifters, I love bar ends.  My first exposure to them, back in 
1975, was just like the moment in Godfather I when Michael Corleone 
first sees Appolonia.  Love at first shift, and they will have to pry my 
cold dead hands off of them.  YMMV.



On 08/25/2016 07:17 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,
I heard from Brian, who is doing my build.  There is also an issue 
with the narrow 10 speed chain falling between the chainrings.  Brian 
is recommending the 3x9 with bar end shifters and I'm going with 
that.  I'll ask about that Audax shifter location and see what he says.


Thanks.

Tim

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Tim Butterfield 
> wrote:


Steve,
That sounds about right.  I'm glad there is a fix for it.  I'm
thinking of going with the recommended 3x9 option.  As for shifter
location, if not down tube, I'm not sure I want bar ends.  I
shouldn't have any knee collisions with the Nitto Noodle, but I'm
not sure. This "not quite a brifter" option looks interesting:
http://gevenalle.com/product/audax/


Tim


On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:


On 08/25/2016 06:19 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure of the exact wording
used to describe the problem. Part was related to the Dura
Ace 7900 down tube shifter being road and the rear
derailleur and 10 speed 12-36 cassette being mountain.


In other words, you have a Dyna Sys MTB 10 speed rear
derailleur, whose cable pull is incompatible with 10 speed
Shimano road shifters of every kind.  Wolf Tooth TanPan will
fix that.  Or, use a 9 speed Shimano MTB rear derailleur,
which has compatible cable pull and will handle that 10 speed
chain perfectly well (lots of my friends are using that setup).


http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/what-shimano-rear-mtb-derailleur-use-road-10-speed-shifters-39865.html



https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/2f7o7l/will_dura_ace_7900_bar_end_shifters_be_compatible/


http://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/roadmtb-10sp-shimano-incompati


There might have something else about that combination
with the Sugino XD2 triple crank, maybe related to the
10-speed chain.  I forget exactly.  There was too much to
take in and process all at once and my sponge overflowed.
:)  I'll pass the Tanpan idea on to Roman to see if that
might help any.


If it were me, I'd go with the 8 or 9 speed MTB derailleur. 
Of course, the fact that I have a couple of them in my parts

box makes that an easy choice.

Be glad you don't have 11 speed.  That gets weirder still.


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

Tim, if my recollection is correct, we (the collective we) kinda started with 
this convo. There may be ways to make your 10-speed downtuber idea work, but 
it's not what Riv is used to, and Roman's suggestion has been proven over many 
years around there. 

My new Appaloosa came with Shimano derailers, 9-speed cassette, Sugino triple, 
and Silver bar-ends on a Noodle. I've run this combo before with Shimano 
bar-ends, too. Both run like buttah..I can almost guarantee you'll be happy 
with it. 

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Steve,
I heard from Brian, who is doing my build.  There is also an issue with the
narrow 10 speed chain falling between the chainrings.  Brian is
recommending the 3x9 with bar end shifters and I'm going with that.  I'll
ask about that Audax shifter location and see what he says.

Thanks.

Tim

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Steve,
> That sounds about right.  I'm glad there is a fix for it.  I'm thinking of
> going with the recommended 3x9 option.  As for shifter location, if not
> down tube, I'm not sure I want bar ends.  I shouldn't have any knee
> collisions with the Nitto Noodle, but I'm not sure.  This "not quite a
> brifter" option looks interesting:  http://gevenalle.com/product/audax/
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 08/25/2016 06:19 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure of the exact wording used to
>>> describe the problem.  Part was related to the Dura Ace 7900 down tube
>>> shifter being road and the rear derailleur and 10 speed 12-36 cassette
>>> being mountain.
>>>
>>
>> In other words, you have a Dyna Sys MTB 10 speed rear derailleur, whose
>> cable pull is incompatible with 10 speed Shimano road shifters of every
>> kind.  Wolf Tooth TanPan will fix that.  Or, use a 9 speed Shimano MTB rear
>> derailleur, which has compatible cable pull and will handle that 10 speed
>> chain perfectly well (lots of my friends are using that setup).
>>
>> http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/what-shimano-rear-m
>> tb-derailleur-use-road-10-speed-shifters-39865.html
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/2f7o7l/will_dur
>> a_ace_7900_bar_end_shifters_be_compatible/
>> http://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/roadmtb-10sp-shimano-incompati
>>
>> There might have something else about that combination with the Sugino
>>> XD2 triple crank, maybe related to the 10-speed chain.  I forget exactly.
>>> There was too much to take in and process all at once and my sponge
>>> overflowed. :)  I'll pass the Tanpan idea on to Roman to see if that might
>>> help any.
>>>
>>>
>> If it were me, I'd go with the 8 or 9 speed MTB derailleur.  Of course,
>> the fact that I have a couple of them in my parts box makes that an easy
>> choice.
>>
>> Be glad you don't have 11 speed.  That gets weirder still.
>>
>>
>> --
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Steve,
That sounds about right.  I'm glad there is a fix for it.  I'm thinking of
going with the recommended 3x9 option.  As for shifter location, if not
down tube, I'm not sure I want bar ends.  I shouldn't have any knee
collisions with the Nitto Noodle, but I'm not sure.  This "not quite a
brifter" option looks interesting:  http://gevenalle.com/product/audax/

Tim


On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
> On 08/25/2016 06:19 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> Thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure of the exact wording used to describe
>> the problem.  Part was related to the Dura Ace 7900 down tube shifter being
>> road and the rear derailleur and 10 speed 12-36 cassette being mountain.
>>
>
> In other words, you have a Dyna Sys MTB 10 speed rear derailleur, whose
> cable pull is incompatible with 10 speed Shimano road shifters of every
> kind.  Wolf Tooth TanPan will fix that.  Or, use a 9 speed Shimano MTB rear
> derailleur, which has compatible cable pull and will handle that 10 speed
> chain perfectly well (lots of my friends are using that setup).
>
> http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/what-shimano-rear-
> mtb-derailleur-use-road-10-speed-shifters-39865.html
> https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/2f7o7l/will_
> dura_ace_7900_bar_end_shifters_be_compatible/
> http://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/roadmtb-10sp-shimano-incompati
>
> There might have something else about that combination with the Sugino XD2
>> triple crank, maybe related to the 10-speed chain.  I forget exactly.
>> There was too much to take in and process all at once and my sponge
>> overflowed. :)  I'll pass the Tanpan idea on to Roman to see if that might
>> help any.
>>
>>
> If it were me, I'd go with the 8 or 9 speed MTB derailleur.  Of course,
> the fact that I have a couple of them in my parts box makes that an easy
> choice.
>
> Be glad you don't have 11 speed.  That gets weirder still.
>
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/25/2016 06:19 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure of the exact wording used to 
describe the problem.  Part was related to the Dura Ace 7900 down tube 
shifter being road and the rear derailleur and 10 speed 12-36 cassette 
being mountain.


In other words, you have a Dyna Sys MTB 10 speed rear derailleur, whose 
cable pull is incompatible with 10 speed Shimano road shifters of every 
kind.  Wolf Tooth TanPan will fix that.  Or, use a 9 speed Shimano MTB 
rear derailleur, which has compatible cable pull and will handle that 10 
speed chain perfectly well (lots of my friends are using that setup).


http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/what-shimano-rear-mtb-derailleur-use-road-10-speed-shifters-39865.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/2f7o7l/will_dura_ace_7900_bar_end_shifters_be_compatible/
http://www.bikehugger.com/post/view/roadmtb-10sp-shimano-incompati

There might have something else about that combination with the Sugino 
XD2 triple crank, maybe related to the 10-speed chain.  I forget 
exactly.  There was too much to take in and process all at once and my 
sponge overflowed. :)  I'll pass the Tanpan idea on to Roman to see if 
that might help any.




If it were me, I'd go with the 8 or 9 speed MTB derailleur.  Of course, 
the fact that I have a couple of them in my parts box makes that an easy 
choice.


Be glad you don't have 11 speed.  That gets weirder still.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Next update...

My AHH build just had another hiccup.  I got a call a bit ago and it
appears they have run into a slight snag.  The 10 speed cassette/rear is
mountain and doesn't quite match up with the road front, triple XD2 crank,
and 7900 down tube shifters.  Evidently, have the 3x10 with down tube
shifters is a non-starter.  So, I need to change it a bit.  The
recommendation is 3x9/12-36 with bar end shifters.  Or, I can rethink and
maybe do a 2x10 brifter setup.  So, I need to re-read my thread and think
back over the recommendations, come up with another plan, and then let them
know how to proceed.

Hmmm.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

My mistake!  Sorry.


On 08/09/2016 10:29 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for the thought, but that is 650b and my AHH is 700c.  The 
widest Honjo hammered 700c fenders Roman or I have found are the 45mm 
from Boulder Cycles.  With 700c, I needed to switch to smooth to get 
50mm.  If you know of a different source for a wider 700c size 
hammered, please let me know.




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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Next update...

I got a call from Roman today with a couple of issues on my AHH build.
They have not yet received the polished Paul's brakes.  Evidently,
something happened to a machine that is holding up manufacturing.  They
will investigate to provide me some more information.  It also seems the
Honjo hammered fenders don't come wide enough for the 38 Barlow Pass EL
tires.  The hammered fenders only go to 45, which has the risk of a rock or
pebble locking the front wheel.  I don't think they look quite as nice, but
will be getting Honjo 50mm smooth fenders instead.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Don Compton  wrote:

> Tim,
> Please send us pictures of the final build.
>

Don,
I will definitely be posting pictures once completed.  If the shipping,
weather, and re-assembly cooperate, that should be in about three weeks.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

René,
Sorry to hear about your delay.  Hopefully, needing the fix can bump it up
the paint queue.

It's good to hear confirmation on the bells.  I'm planning to mount it
about the same place on mine.

Thanks.

Tim

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 7:50 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> Ahhh, my custom has already been delayed several weeks, and last week it
> got another delay because the painter "messed up" when putting the clear
> coat on the top tube, so the top tube needs to be repainted. Is that one or
> two weeks more?
>
> The way things are going, you're going to get yours sooner than I will!
>
> BTW, those little bells are the most awesome bells ever, both in design
> and in sound! I place mine around the spacers on the headset where they're
> easily reached without being on the handlebar.
>
> Best,
>
> René
>
> On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Tim Butterfield 
> wrote:
>
>> Next update...
>>
>> RBW has my frame from Waterford and my items from Compass have arrived.
>> I've settled on the last few items for the initial build.  My order now
>> includes a large grey saddlesack, a medium basket & net for front rack, a
>> tool wrap to put in the saddlesack, and a couple of John's Irish straps,
>> just in case.  The build sheet has been updated with all of this.  I'll add
>> a Spurcycle Bell, Garmin Varia radar, Garmin Edge 820, and Wahoo Blue SC
>> once it gets here.  As for when that might be, I could have it in less than
>> three weeks.  There are eight Clem builds ahead of mine in the queue.  So,
>> my build might start by the end of next week.
>>
>> It's getting closer.  :)
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Next update...
>>>
>>> I called RBW and was a bit surprised when Grant answered the phone.  I
>>> know it's his company and he works there, but I didn't expect him to answer
>>> the phones.  He said he fired everyone and sent them home.  That changed
>>> when I asked if he wanted to take over my order from Roman.  :)
>>>
>>> The frame has been shipped from Waterford to RBW and should arrive
>>> within a week.  The build will likely start after the current batch of
>>> Clems are handled.  The Compass Randonneur handlebar was a non-starter.
>>> The 440mm size is still on back-order and is not likely to get back in
>>> stock until sometime in the fall.  Thus, my selection was changed to a 46cm
>>> Noodle.  Since I am not likely to head south until early October, I will be
>>> getting the bike shipped.  So, only about a month or so left until I can
>>> re-assemble and ride.  The build sheet has been updated with the order
>>> tweaks.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Tim Butterfield <
>>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 12:03 AM, Tim Butterfield <
 timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For the build sheet, here is the link:
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0
>

 I tweaked my build sheet, moved a few items, and added some links where
 they worked.

 Tim

>>>
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Don Compton]

Tim,
Please send us pictures of the final build.

On Tuesday, August 2, 2016 at 3:26:51 PM UTC-7, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Next update...
>
> RBW has my frame from Waterford and my items from Compass have arrived.  
> I've settled on the last few items for the initial build.  My order now 
> includes a large grey saddlesack, a medium basket & net for front rack, a 
> tool wrap to put in the saddlesack, and a couple of John's Irish straps, 
> just in case.  The build sheet has been updated with all of this.  I'll add 
> a Spurcycle Bell, Garmin Varia radar, Garmin Edge 820, and Wahoo Blue SC 
> once it gets here.  As for when that might be, I could have it in less than 
> three weeks.  There are eight Clem builds ahead of mine in the queue.  So, 
> my build might start by the end of next week.
>
> It's getting closer.  :)
>
> Tim
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Next update...
>>
>> I called RBW and was a bit surprised when Grant answered the phone.  I 
>> know it's his company and he works there, but I didn't expect him to answer 
>> the phones.  He said he fired everyone and sent them home.  That changed 
>> when I asked if he wanted to take over my order from Roman.  :)
>>
>> The frame has been shipped from Waterford to RBW and should arrive within 
>> a week.  The build will likely start after the current batch of Clems are 
>> handled.  The Compass Randonneur handlebar was a non-starter.  The 440mm 
>> size is still on back-order and is not likely to get back in stock until 
>> sometime in the fall.  Thus, my selection was changed to a 46cm Noodle.  
>> Since I am not likely to head south until early October, I will be getting 
>> the bike shipped.  So, only about a month or so left until I can 
>> re-assemble and ride.  The build sheet has been updated with the order 
>> tweaks.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Tim Butterfield > > wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 12:03 AM, Tim Butterfield >> > wrote:
>>>
 For the build sheet, here is the link:

 https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0

>>>
>>> I tweaked my build sheet, moved a few items, and added some links where 
>>> they worked.
>>>
>>> Tim 
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

Ahhh, my custom has already been delayed several weeks, and last week it
got another delay because the painter "messed up" when putting the clear
coat on the top tube, so the top tube needs to be repainted. Is that one or
two weeks more?

The way things are going, you're going to get yours sooner than I will!

BTW, those little bells are the most awesome bells ever, both in design and
in sound! I place mine around the spacers on the headset where they're
easily reached without being on the handlebar.

Best,

René

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Next update...
>
> RBW has my frame from Waterford and my items from Compass have arrived.
> I've settled on the last few items for the initial build.  My order now
> includes a large grey saddlesack, a medium basket & net for front rack, a
> tool wrap to put in the saddlesack, and a couple of John's Irish straps,
> just in case.  The build sheet has been updated with all of this.  I'll add
> a Spurcycle Bell, Garmin Varia radar, Garmin Edge 820, and Wahoo Blue SC
> once it gets here.  As for when that might be, I could have it in less than
> three weeks.  There are eight Clem builds ahead of mine in the queue.  So,
> my build might start by the end of next week.
>
> It's getting closer.  :)
>
> Tim
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Next update...
>>
>> I called RBW and was a bit surprised when Grant answered the phone.  I
>> know it's his company and he works there, but I didn't expect him to answer
>> the phones.  He said he fired everyone and sent them home.  That changed
>> when I asked if he wanted to take over my order from Roman.  :)
>>
>> The frame has been shipped from Waterford to RBW and should arrive within
>> a week.  The build will likely start after the current batch of Clems are
>> handled.  The Compass Randonneur handlebar was a non-starter.  The 440mm
>> size is still on back-order and is not likely to get back in stock until
>> sometime in the fall.  Thus, my selection was changed to a 46cm Noodle.
>> Since I am not likely to head south until early October, I will be getting
>> the bike shipped.  So, only about a month or so left until I can
>> re-assemble and ride.  The build sheet has been updated with the order
>> tweaks.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 12:03 AM, Tim Butterfield <
>>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 For the build sheet, here is the link:

 https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0

>>>
>>> I tweaked my build sheet, moved a few items, and added some links where
>>> they worked.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Next update...

RBW has my frame from Waterford and my items from Compass have arrived.
I've settled on the last few items for the initial build.  My order now
includes a large grey saddlesack, a medium basket & net for front rack, a
tool wrap to put in the saddlesack, and a couple of John's Irish straps,
just in case.  The build sheet has been updated with all of this.  I'll add
a Spurcycle Bell, Garmin Varia radar, Garmin Edge 820, and Wahoo Blue SC
once it gets here.  As for when that might be, I could have it in less than
three weeks.  There are eight Clem builds ahead of mine in the queue.  So,
my build might start by the end of next week.

It's getting closer.  :)

Tim

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Next update...
>
> I called RBW and was a bit surprised when Grant answered the phone.  I
> know it's his company and he works there, but I didn't expect him to answer
> the phones.  He said he fired everyone and sent them home.  That changed
> when I asked if he wanted to take over my order from Roman.  :)
>
> The frame has been shipped from Waterford to RBW and should arrive within
> a week.  The build will likely start after the current batch of Clems are
> handled.  The Compass Randonneur handlebar was a non-starter.  The 440mm
> size is still on back-order and is not likely to get back in stock until
> sometime in the fall.  Thus, my selection was changed to a 46cm Noodle.
> Since I am not likely to head south until early October, I will be getting
> the bike shipped.  So, only about a month or so left until I can
> re-assemble and ride.  The build sheet has been updated with the order
> tweaks.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 12:03 AM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For the build sheet, here is the link:
>>>
>>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0
>>>
>>
>> I tweaked my build sheet, moved a few items, and added some links where
>> they worked.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Next update...

I called RBW and was a bit surprised when Grant answered the phone.  I know
it's his company and he works there, but I didn't expect him to answer the
phones.  He said he fired everyone and sent them home.  That changed when I
asked if he wanted to take over my order from Roman.  :)

The frame has been shipped from Waterford to RBW and should arrive within a
week.  The build will likely start after the current batch of Clems are
handled.  The Compass Randonneur handlebar was a non-starter.  The 440mm
size is still on back-order and is not likely to get back in stock until
sometime in the fall.  Thus, my selection was changed to a 46cm Noodle.
Since I am not likely to head south until early October, I will be getting
the bike shipped.  So, only about a month or so left until I can
re-assemble and ride.  The build sheet has been updated with the order
tweaks.

Tim


On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 12:03 AM, Tim Butterfield <
> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For the build sheet, here is the link:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0
>>
>
> I tweaked my build sheet, moved a few items, and added some links where
> they worked.
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 12:03 AM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> For the build sheet, here is the link:
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0
>

I tweaked my build sheet, moved a few items, and added some links where
they worked.

Tim

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Patrick,
Just to clarify, the wheels are these:
https://www.rivbike.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=W70036135DYNO

Tim

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Patrick,
>
> I discussed that BES cable run with Roman, but he didn't like the idea.
> Down tube shifters are now set as I have already okayed them ordering the
> 7900s.
>
> The tires on the build sheet I linked to are the Barlow Pass EL, 700x38,
> black.  I'll be ordering those drop-shipped from Compass along with the
> handlebars and bar tape.  Wheels are the Riv SP Dyno 36 spoke set.
>
> Pictures will definitely be posted once I get it.  I'm guessing that will
> be late August or early September.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>
>> Tim -- Just in case it's a new idea, know that you can run your BES
>> housing along the bar and under the tape, and have it come out near the
>> stem. That's what I've done, and I've not found that it degrades shifting
>> (9 sp friction).
>>
>> Your build looks "fun". Please post the statutory photos when you get it
>> all done.
>>
>> Oh: what tires will you be using? And those Velocity wheels: what rims,
>> spokes, and hubs?
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 1:03 AM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> " The more I thought about it, the less I liked the esthetics of bar end
>> shifters.  This was due to two primary factors, the shifters being right in
>> front of the knees and also the loose loops of cables usually used with
>> them.  Those just seem messy to me somehow, not very tidy. "
>>
>> --
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Patrick,

I discussed that BES cable run with Roman, but he didn't like the idea.
Down tube shifters are now set as I have already okayed them ordering the
7900s.

The tires on the build sheet I linked to are the Barlow Pass EL, 700x38,
black.  I'll be ordering those drop-shipped from Compass along with the
handlebars and bar tape.  Wheels are the Riv SP Dyno 36 spoke set.

Pictures will definitely be posted once I get it.  I'm guessing that will
be late August or early September.

Thanks.

Tim

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Tim -- Just in case it's a new idea, know that you can run your BES
> housing along the bar and under the tape, and have it come out near the
> stem. That's what I've done, and I've not found that it degrades shifting
> (9 sp friction).
>
> Your build looks "fun". Please post the statutory photos when you get it
> all done.
>
> Oh: what tires will you be using? And those Velocity wheels: what rims,
> spokes, and hubs?
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 1:03 AM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
> " The more I thought about it, the less I liked the esthetics of bar end
> shifters.  This was due to two primary factors, the shifters being right in
> front of the knees and also the loose loops of cables usually used with
> them.  Those just seem messy to me somehow, not very tidy. "
>
> --
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

René,
You're right.  Good catch.  It is 11-36.  That was in an email conversation
I had with Roman, but didn't make it into my notes.

Thanks.

Tim

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 9:18 AM, René Sterental  wrote:

> Good!
>
> What 10 speed cassette is 12-36? I only recall seeing the 11-36, which is
> what I'm using (Shimano XT).
>
> René
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016, Ryan Fleming 
> wrote:
>
>> wellseems to be coming along nicely
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 2:03:50 AM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, All.
>>>
>>> Since there was interest in it, I wanted to post a progress update and
>>> build sheet.  At almost a month after ordering, the frame should be well
>>> along in the queue by now.  The build components are well settled and the
>>> part allocations, orders, and accumulations are in process.
>>>
>>> Gearing will be 3x10 with a Riv Sugino crank combined with a 12-36
>>> cassette.  At my current 'less than 200 watt power' level, this combination
>>> should work well for me for quite some time.
>>>
>>> After starting towards getting barends, I ended up switching to down
>>> tube shifters with the Shimano Dura-Ace 7900 for a friction front shift and
>>> indexed rear shift.  The more I thought about it, the less I liked the
>>> esthetics of bar end shifters.  This was due to two primary factors, the
>>> shifters being right in front of the knees and also the loose loops of
>>> cables usually used with them.  Those just seem messy to me somehow, not
>>> very tidy.  Down tube shifters are so much cleaner looking to me in
>>> comparison.  I think seeing them on René's pictures helped in that
>>> decision.  (Thanks for those.)  To start working towards getting used to
>>> them, I have been practicing on my SRAM Apex brifters on my AWOL.  Each
>>> time I shift, I try to remember to reach down and touch the down tube for a
>>> second or two.  This should help me get used to holding the handlebar with
>>> only one hand while shifting.  Any way, that's my theory.
>>>
>>> For the build sheet, here is the link:
>>>
>>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0
>>>
>>> Thanks again everyone.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
 first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
 sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
 purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
 was sort of rivish.
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

 Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
 using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
 Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
 Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
 definitely not rivish.
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428

 It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
 real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
 Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
 but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
 the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
 abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks
 without having to change frames.

 So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two
 mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was
 more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs
 and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much,
 I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It
 looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I
 expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But,
 using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work
 with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and
 cons of each.

 With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some
 RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.

 My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer
 distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I
 pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are
 there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv
 locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but
 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

Tim -- Just in case it's a new idea, know that you can run your BES housing
along the bar and under the tape, and have it come out near the stem.
That's what I've done, and I've not found that it degrades shifting (9 sp
friction).

Your build looks "fun". Please post the statutory photos when you get it
all done.

Oh: what tires will you be using? And those Velocity wheels: what rims,
spokes, and hubs?

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 1:03 AM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

" The more I thought about it, the less I liked the esthetics of bar end
shifters.  This was due to two primary factors, the shifters being right in
front of the knees and also the loose loops of cables usually used with
them.  Those just seem messy to me somehow, not very tidy. "

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

Good!

What 10 speed cassette is 12-36? I only recall seeing the 11-36, which is
what I'm using (Shimano XT).

René

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016, Ryan Fleming 
wrote:

> wellseems to be coming along nicely
>
> On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 2:03:50 AM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Hi, All.
>>
>> Since there was interest in it, I wanted to post a progress update and
>> build sheet.  At almost a month after ordering, the frame should be well
>> along in the queue by now.  The build components are well settled and the
>> part allocations, orders, and accumulations are in process.
>>
>> Gearing will be 3x10 with a Riv Sugino crank combined with a 12-36
>> cassette.  At my current 'less than 200 watt power' level, this combination
>> should work well for me for quite some time.
>>
>> After starting towards getting barends, I ended up switching to down tube
>> shifters with the Shimano Dura-Ace 7900 for a friction front shift and
>> indexed rear shift.  The more I thought about it, the less I liked the
>> esthetics of bar end shifters.  This was due to two primary factors, the
>> shifters being right in front of the knees and also the loose loops of
>> cables usually used with them.  Those just seem messy to me somehow, not
>> very tidy.  Down tube shifters are so much cleaner looking to me in
>> comparison.  I think seeing them on René's pictures helped in that
>> decision.  (Thanks for those.)  To start working towards getting used to
>> them, I have been practicing on my SRAM Apex brifters on my AWOL.  Each
>> time I shift, I try to remember to reach down and touch the down tube for a
>> second or two.  This should help me get used to holding the handlebar with
>> only one hand while shifting.  Any way, that's my theory.
>>
>> For the build sheet, here is the link:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0
>>
>> Thanks again everyone.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
>>> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
>>> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
>>> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
>>> was sort of rivish.
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>>>
>>> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
>>> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
>>> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
>>> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
>>> definitely not rivish.
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>>>
>>> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
>>> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
>>> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
>>> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
>>> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
>>> the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
>>> abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks
>>> without having to change frames.
>>>
>>> So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two
>>> mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was
>>> more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs
>>> and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much,
>>> I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It
>>> looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I
>>> expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But,
>>> using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work
>>> with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and
>>> cons of each.
>>>
>>> With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some
>>> RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.
>>>
>>> My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer
>>> distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I
>>> pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are
>>> there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv
>>> locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but
>>> don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any advice you have.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Ryan Fleming]

wellseems to be coming along nicely

On Tuesday, June 28, 2016 at 2:03:50 AM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Hi, All.
>
> Since there was interest in it, I wanted to post a progress update and 
> build sheet.  At almost a month after ordering, the frame should be well 
> along in the queue by now.  The build components are well settled and the 
> part allocations, orders, and accumulations are in process.
>
> Gearing will be 3x10 with a Riv Sugino crank combined with a 12-36 
> cassette.  At my current 'less than 200 watt power' level, this combination 
> should work well for me for quite some time.
>
> After starting towards getting barends, I ended up switching to down tube 
> shifters with the Shimano Dura-Ace 7900 for a friction front shift and 
> indexed rear shift.  The more I thought about it, the less I liked the 
> esthetics of bar end shifters.  This was due to two primary factors, the 
> shifters being right in front of the knees and also the loose loops of 
> cables usually used with them.  Those just seem messy to me somehow, not 
> very tidy.  Down tube shifters are so much cleaner looking to me in 
> comparison.  I think seeing them on René's pictures helped in that 
> decision.  (Thanks for those.)  To start working towards getting used to 
> them, I have been practicing on my SRAM Apex brifters on my AWOL.  Each 
> time I shift, I try to remember to reach down and touch the down tube for a 
> second or two.  This should help me get used to holding the handlebar with 
> only one hand while shifting.  Any way, that's my theory.
>
> For the build sheet, here is the link:
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0
>
> Thanks again everyone.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I 
>> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and 
>> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and 
>> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That 
>> was sort of rivish.  
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>>
>> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort 
>> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left 
>> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in 
>> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp, 
>> definitely not rivish.  
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>>
>> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the 
>> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer 
>> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo, 
>> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at 
>> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of 
>> the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my 
>> abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks 
>> without having to change frames.
>>
>> So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two 
>> mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was 
>> more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs 
>> and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much, 
>> I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It 
>> looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I 
>> expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But, 
>> using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work 
>> with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and 
>> cons of each.
>>
>> With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some 
>> RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.
>>
>> My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer 
>> distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I 
>> pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are 
>> there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv 
>> locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but 
>> don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?
>>
>> Thanks for any advice you have.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Hi, All.

Since there was interest in it, I wanted to post a progress update and
build sheet.  At almost a month after ordering, the frame should be well
along in the queue by now.  The build components are well settled and the
part allocations, orders, and accumulations are in process.

Gearing will be 3x10 with a Riv Sugino crank combined with a 12-36
cassette.  At my current 'less than 200 watt power' level, this combination
should work well for me for quite some time.

After starting towards getting barends, I ended up switching to down tube
shifters with the Shimano Dura-Ace 7900 for a friction front shift and
indexed rear shift.  The more I thought about it, the less I liked the
esthetics of bar end shifters.  This was due to two primary factors, the
shifters being right in front of the knees and also the loose loops of
cables usually used with them.  Those just seem messy to me somehow, not
very tidy.  Down tube shifters are so much cleaner looking to me in
comparison.  I think seeing them on René's pictures helped in that
decision.  (Thanks for those.)  To start working towards getting used to
them, I have been practicing on my SRAM Apex brifters on my AWOL.  Each
time I shift, I try to remember to reach down and touch the down tube for a
second or two.  This should help me get used to holding the handlebar with
only one hand while shifting.  Any way, that's my theory.

For the build sheet, here is the link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lq_0chVXRJn4wV8Dl0qaeHpsgttyq3X1lyzIHZwelB0

Thanks again everyone.

Tim



On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
> was sort of rivish.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>
> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
> definitely not rivish.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>
> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
> the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
> abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks
> without having to change frames.
>
> So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two mentioned.
> My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was more modern
> with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs and SRAM
> setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much, I like
> the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It looks
> clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I expect
> that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But, using DT
> shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work with an
> 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and cons of
> each.
>
> With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some
> RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.
>
> My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer
> distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I
> pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are
> there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv
> locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but
> don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?
>
> Thanks for any advice you have.
>
> Tim
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/05/2016 06:00 PM, 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Steve P.- Maybe, probably, this should be a new thread, but I have a thought 
about centerpulls: I had the Compass centerpulls put on my new MAP. They 
squealed so bad that heads would snap toward me when I braked. It was really 
unpleasant. I asked on the ibob list and got the suggestion of water, of cold 
bending the arms, and of filing the washers to create toe-in. I also asked 
Mitch (Pryor, the frame builder) and Theo at Compass about it. Mitch was kind 
enough to send me new washers since he had been waiting for my decaleur to come 
back from being chromed and had to send it anyway. I tried the water in the 
meantime and it was a temporary fix, the squeal came back. I'm really busy and 
kind of lazy, preferring to ride over work on my bike, so I didn't get around 
to installing the filed washers and finally the squeal went away.


You have a MAP with brazed on Compass brakes /also/?   Well, Jan said 
the squeal would go away when the brakes were bedded in.





But my question came to me about the toe in theory. Wouldn't toe in be 
temporary as well? If the front of the pad contacts the rim first, even ever so 
slightly, won't it just wear quicker and soon enough the braking surface will 
be even again? Just a thought. I'm sure glad mine stopped squealing though.



Excellent question, and one I can't answer.

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Re: Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Steve P.- Maybe, probably, this should be a new thread, but I have a thought 
about centerpulls: I had the Compass centerpulls put on my new MAP. They 
squealed so bad that heads would snap toward me when I braked. It was really 
unpleasant. I asked on the ibob list and got the suggestion of water, of cold 
bending the arms, and of filing the washers to create toe-in. I also asked 
Mitch (Pryor, the frame builder) and Theo at Compass about it. Mitch was kind 
enough to send me new washers since he had been waiting for my decaleur to come 
back from being chromed and had to send it anyway. I tried the water in the 
meantime and it was a temporary fix, the squeal came back. I'm really busy and 
kind of lazy, preferring to ride over work on my bike, so I didn't get around 
to installing the filed washers and finally the squeal went away. 

But my question came to me about the toe in theory. Wouldn't toe in be 
temporary as well? If the front of the pad contacts the rim first, even ever so 
slightly, won't it just wear quicker and soon enough the braking surface will 
be even again? Just a thought. I'm sure glad mine stopped squealing though. 

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Re: Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Joe,
Thanks for the opinion.  It would be good for it not to be beausaged
already when I finally got it home.  I'm not sure road beausage counts
anyway.  That seems more like damage.  :)  Now that I think about it,
having and using a good receiver hitch mount on the back of the RV might be
a better way to store and secure it than having it locked to a post of the
cabana.

Tim

On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Tim, picking up the bike in person would be fun, but personally I wouldn't
> do it unless I could roll it safely into the back of a van and away from
> debris and cars. Later after it's been ridden and beausaged a bit? -- Sure,
> no problem. Brand spanking new? -- Not gonna happen. Rivendell does a truly
> masterful packing job..in my opinion it's almost a required part of the
> buying experience of a new Rivbike. That's what I would do.
>
> Joe Bernard
> Vallejo, CA.
>
> --
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>

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Re: Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

Tim, picking up the bike in person would be fun, but personally I wouldn't do 
it unless I could roll it safely into the back of a van and away from debris 
and cars. Later after it's been ridden and beausaged a bit? -- Sure, no 
problem. Brand spanking new? -- Not gonna happen. Rivendell does a truly 
masterful packing job..in my opinion it's almost a required part of the buying 
experience of a new Rivbike. That's what I would do.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

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