Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Jason Szumlanski]

Great idea - one given me to a buddy, but we had the same utility reject
that, too. Rather than argue with them, that particular customer changed to
a new 200A meter/main with conductors we could tap. It wasn't cheap... but
it got the job done quickly.



On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Nick Soleil 
wrote:

> One trick is to install an external meter base, so that you can use the
> original meter compartment for your supply side connection.  You'll also
> need jumper straps and a cover for the original meter base.
>
> Nick Soleil
> Enphase Energy
> Cell: 707-321-2937
>
> On Sep 25, 2015, at 10:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> Siemens makes a "Solar Ready" line. Whatever you plan to install, make
> sure it's on the utility's list of approved devices. And...
>
> Don't find out the hard way that your utility does not allow solar
> backfeed directly to the double-lugs on the load side of the meter socket.
> It makes no sense whatsoever, but we ran into one utility resisting our
> doing anything in the meter can, claiming it was their domain until the
> conductors leave the meter enclosure. The AHJ wasn't prepared to back us
> up.
>
> With a fusible disconnect immediately adjacent to the meter, you would
> think this is the preferable interconnection method in every case from the
> utility's perspective!
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Peter Parrish <
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> wrote:
>
>> One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter,
>> is to install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be
>> “double lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have
>> accommodation for a solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and
>> disconnect, but the entire arrangement is code compliant.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t
>> remember the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model
>> if you want.
>>
>>
>>
>> -  Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
>>
>> President, SolarGnosis
>>
>> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
>>
>> Suite 351
>>
>> South Pasadena, CA 91030
>>
>> (323) 839-6108
>>
>> peter...@pobox.com
>>
>> NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *gary easton
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
>> service?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Gary Easton
>> Appalachian Renewable Power
>>
>> Stewart, Ohio 45778
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>>
>> T: 740-277-8498
>>
>>  www.arp-solar.com
>>
>>
>> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
>> you win.”
>>
>> ~Ghandi
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[August Goers]

Upgrading the main panel to 400 A but keeping the 200 A main breaker is
also an option. As always, there are many ways to achieve the code
compliant interconnection and typically one will stand out as being the
most cost effective while achieving the project goals.



Best,



August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer
*Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 11:50 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service



Line side tap with a fusable disconnect or a new service with dual main
load breakers. ( used in ag applications) There may be other requirements
also depending on AHJ
Jerry

On Sep 25, 2015 3:11 AM, "gary easton"  wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
service?



-- 

Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power

Stewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV

T: 740-277-8498

 www.arp-solar.com


“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
you win.”

~Ghandi




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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Jerry Shafer]

Line side tap with a fusable disconnect or a new service with dual main
load breakers. ( used in ag applications) There may be other requirements
also depending on AHJ
Jerry
On Sep 25, 2015 3:11 AM, "gary easton"  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
> service?
>
> --
> Gary Easton
> Appalachian Renewable Power
> Stewart, Ohio 45778
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>
> T: 740-277-8498
>  www.arp-solar.com
>
> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
> you win.”
> ~Ghandi
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Nick Soleil]

One trick is to install an external meter base, so that you can use the 
original meter compartment for your supply side connection.  You'll also need 
jumper straps and a cover for the original meter base.

Nick Soleil
Enphase Energy
Cell: 707-321-2937

> On Sep 25, 2015, at 10:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> Siemens makes a "Solar Ready" line. Whatever you plan to install, make sure 
> it's on the utility's list of approved devices. And...
> 
> Don't find out the hard way that your utility does not allow solar backfeed 
> directly to the double-lugs on the load side of the meter socket. It makes no 
> sense whatsoever, but we ran into one utility resisting our doing anything in 
> the meter can, claiming it was their domain until the conductors leave the 
> meter enclosure. The AHJ wasn't prepared to back us up. 
> 
> With a fusible disconnect immediately adjacent to the meter, you would think 
> this is the preferable interconnection method in every case from the 
> utility's perspective!
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Peter Parrish 
>>  wrote:
>> One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter, is 
>> to install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be 
>> “double lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have 
>> accommodation for a solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and 
>> disconnect, but the entire arrangement is code compliant.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t 
>> remember the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model if 
>> you want.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> -  Peter
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
>> 
>> President, SolarGnosis
>> 
>> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
>> 
>> Suite 351
>> 
>> South Pasadena, CA 91030
>> 
>> (323) 839-6108
>> 
>> peter...@pobox.com
>> 
>> NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
>> Behalf Of gary easton
>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> 
>> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Gary Easton
>> Appalachian Renewable Power
>> 
>> Stewart, Ohio 45778
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>> 
>> T: 740-277-8498
>> 
>>  www.arp-solar.com
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then 
>> you win.”
>> ~Ghandi
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Jason Szumlanski]

Siemens makes a "Solar Ready" line. Whatever you plan to install, make sure
it's on the utility's list of approved devices. And...

Don't find out the hard way that your utility does not allow solar backfeed
directly to the double-lugs on the load side of the meter socket. It makes
no sense whatsoever, but we ran into one utility resisting our doing
anything in the meter can, claiming it was their domain until the
conductors leave the meter enclosure. The AHJ wasn't prepared to back us
up.

With a fusible disconnect immediately adjacent to the meter, you would
think this is the preferable interconnection method in every case from the
utility's perspective!

Jason


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Peter Parrish <
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> wrote:

> One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter,
> is to install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be
> “double lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have
> accommodation for a solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and
> disconnect, but the entire arrangement is code compliant.
>
>
>
> Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t
> remember the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model
> if you want.
>
>
>
> -  Peter
>
>
>
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
>
> President, SolarGnosis
>
> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave.
>
> Suite 351
>
> South Pasadena, CA 91030
>
> (323) 839-6108
>
> peter...@pobox.com
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *gary easton
> *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service
>
>
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
> service?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Gary Easton
> Appalachian Renewable Power
>
> Stewart, Ohio 45778
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>
> T: 740-277-8498
>
>  www.arp-solar.com
>
>
> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
> you win.”
>
> ~Ghandi
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Jason Szumlanski]

Yes, assuming the SE conductors are rated for 200A, you can backfeed 200A
subject to utility approval.

​Jason


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 11:09 AM, gary easton  wrote:

> Thanks Jason
> That's what we do as well so is the supply connection limited only by the
> utility and the rating of the conductors feeding the service?
>
>
> On Friday, September 25, 2015, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Supply side interconnection is the only option, usually tapping service
>> conductors in main panel between meter and existing main. Without other
>> complexities present, it's pretty straightforward. We're running into a lot
>> of meter/main combos that don't have conductors that can be tapped (copper
>> bus bars between meter socket and main breaker. That has required changes
>> of service equipment, which can be pricey.
>>
>> One thing that you should consider... Just because the service is 200A,
>> it doesn't mean the utility transformer can handle the backfeed from a very
>> large PV array, especially if a neighbor on the same transformer has a PV
>> system. In one extreme case we had a single 25kW pole-mounted utility
>> transformer feeding SIX tenant meters at a single property ranging from
>> 100A to 200A! We wanted to install a PV system larger than 25kW (about 105A
>> rating), and the utility blocked the project, denying the request to
>> upgrade the transformer, even at the customer's expense. It was a bit more
>> complicated than that, but bottom line it was a pure political/principle
>> stance. If we had the legal department the utility does, we probably would
>> have fought it.
>>
>> It's a lesson to check the utility transformer serving the property, not
>> just the service rating.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:10 AM, gary easton  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
>>> service?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary Easton
>>> Appalachian Renewable Power
>>> Stewart, Ohio 45778
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>>>
>>> T: 740-277-8498
>>>  www.arp-solar.com
>>>
>>> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you.
>>> Then you win.”
>>> ~Ghandi
>>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Gary,

That is exactly what I am considering. Because of the inconvenience of reset 
and lack of automatic shutdown, I suggest the use of solenoids with the Classic 
Aux control so the system will shut down the instant arc fault is detected. It 
is easily reset from the battery location or anywhere you wire the reset 
circuit. By supplying the coil voltage until the controller takes over, the 
entire power system will restart; no trip to the roof. I built a reset control 
using a simple wireless relay with a key fob remote to perform the reset. Cost 
about $20.

The Birdhouse requires human action, my idea does not but can be still be 
activated by a person. Of course the Birdhouse offers many other shutdown 
features for grid tie. But for a typical off grid installation, shutting down 
the PV array and battery means all power is off at the source. If there is a 
reason this will not work, I would like to know it. For a couple hundred 
dollars, it seems like a cost effective and desirable approach. 

Larry
 

On Sep 24, 2015, at 8:51 PM, Gary Willett  wrote:

Larry:

The MidNite Solar 250A breakers used for battery bank disconnect, and the 
breakers in the "Bird House" controlled roof-top mounted disconnecting 
combiners, use a "shunt-trip" mechanism inside the circuit breaker. This 
requires a manual reset to restore the disconnected circuits. This can be 
inconvenient if the enclosure housing the shunt-trip breaker is not easily 
accessible (i.e. on a two story house with a 6:12 roof pitch.  Something to 
consider.

Regards, 

Gary Willett PE
Icarus Engineering


On 9/24/15 7:26 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
> William, Ray, 
> 
> I asked Midnite about using the Aux circuit for control for ground or arc 
> faults. They said this will (should) be added on the next firmware update. 
> This means if an arc fault is detected, the Classic will shut down AND 
> conductors leaving the array would be de-energized by switching off the HV 
> relay. All automatically. A second relay could be connected to the battery 
> for total system shutdown. Should be easy to build a circuit to re-energize 
> everything after a fault.
> 
> Wouldn't this automatic method be better than waiting for someone to throw a 
> switch to shut things down? You would have to run the low voltage control 
> wire and perhaps put the relays in an enclosure. A disconnect switch could be 
> in series for manual shutdown. What am I missing?
> 
> Larry   
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Ray Walters < 
> r...@solarray.com > wrote:
> 
> The other option is Midnite Solar's remote controlled breakers or combiner 
> boxes.  They make up to a 250 amp breaker, but I found on large battery 
> systems that we need some thing larger. Colorado is now requiring Rapid 
> Disconnect for the batteries as well, which is NOT the original intent of 
> that article.  Is the Gigavac UL listed?
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 9/24/2015 10:45 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
>> William and Wrenches, 
>> 
>> I have pondered situations like this one and wonder the following: If a high 
>> voltage DC solenoid were placed at the PV array and the coil was controlled 
>> by an arc fault detector along with a means of manually disconnecting, would 
>> that not work to satisfy shut down requirements and safety concerns? 
>> 
>> We have been using 350A, 800 volt solenoids from Gigavac in our lithium 
>> battery system on both the positive and negative terminals (controlled by a 
>> CPU) to provide 100% disconnect if case of any battery fault. 
>> 
>> Larry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:26 PM, William Miller > > wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Fellow Wrenches
>>  
>> Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you:
>>  
>> We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system.  The customer 
>> insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit 
>> from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install.  This 
>> created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output 
>> circuits in (or now, on)  the envelopes of habitable buildings.
>>  
>> There was no practical way to replace the PVC.  We contrived a method to 
>> sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing 
>> on with EMT.  This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit.  The 
>> distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT.  Due to the 
>> conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge 
>> controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size.
>>  
>> (As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge 
>> controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of 
>> that high a voltage.  With the currently available high wattag

Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Peter Parrish]

One way, if you want the feed to be on the customer’s side of the meter, is to 
install a new service panel with meter jaws that are designed to be “double 
lugged”. That is the two lugs on the customer side have accommodation for a 
solar backfeed. There are rules about the OCP and disconnect, but the entire 
arrangement is code compliant. 

 

Not every manu sells these panels, and off the top of my head I can’t remember 
the one we used many years ago. I’ll find out the make and model if you want.

 

-  Peter

 

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.

President, SolarGnosis

1107 Fair Oaks Ave.

Suite 351

South Pasadena, CA 91030

(323) 839-6108

peter...@pobox.com

NABCEP Certified PV Professional #031806-26

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of gary easton
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 6:11 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

 

Hello Wrenches,

What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A service? 


 

-- 

Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power

Stewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV   
 
T: 740-277-8498

 www.arp-solar.com

 


“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you 
win.”


~Ghandi

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[gary easton]

Thanks Jason
That's what we do as well so is the supply connection limited only by the
utility and the rating of the conductors feeding the service?

On Friday, September 25, 2015, Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Supply side interconnection is the only option, usually tapping service
> conductors in main panel between meter and existing main. Without other
> complexities present, it's pretty straightforward. We're running into a lot
> of meter/main combos that don't have conductors that can be tapped (copper
> bus bars between meter socket and main breaker. That has required changes
> of service equipment, which can be pricey.
>
> One thing that you should consider... Just because the service is 200A, it
> doesn't mean the utility transformer can handle the backfeed from a very
> large PV array, especially if a neighbor on the same transformer has a PV
> system. In one extreme case we had a single 25kW pole-mounted utility
> transformer feeding SIX tenant meters at a single property ranging from
> 100A to 200A! We wanted to install a PV system larger than 25kW (about 105A
> rating), and the utility blocked the project, denying the request to
> upgrade the transformer, even at the customer's expense. It was a bit more
> complicated than that, but bottom line it was a pure political/principle
> stance. If we had the legal department the utility does, we probably would
> have fought it.
>
> It's a lesson to check the utility transformer serving the property, not
> just the service rating.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:10 AM, gary easton  > wrote:
>
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
>> service?
>>
>> --
>> Gary Easton
>> Appalachian Renewable Power
>> Stewart, Ohio 45778
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>>
>> T: 740-277-8498
>>  www.arp-solar.com
>>
>> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
>> you win.”
>> ~Ghandi
>>
>>

-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Jason Szumlanski]

Supply side interconnection is the only option, usually tapping service
conductors in main panel between meter and existing main. Without other
complexities present, it's pretty straightforward. We're running into a lot
of meter/main combos that don't have conductors that can be tapped (copper
bus bars between meter socket and main breaker. That has required changes
of service equipment, which can be pricey.

One thing that you should consider... Just because the service is 200A, it
doesn't mean the utility transformer can handle the backfeed from a very
large PV array, especially if a neighbor on the same transformer has a PV
system. In one extreme case we had a single 25kW pole-mounted utility
transformer feeding SIX tenant meters at a single property ranging from
100A to 200A! We wanted to install a PV system larger than 25kW (about 105A
rating), and the utility blocked the project, denying the request to
upgrade the transformer, even at the customer's expense. It was a bit more
complicated than that, but bottom line it was a pure political/principle
stance. If we had the legal department the utility does, we probably would
have fought it.

It's a lesson to check the utility transformer serving the property, not
just the service rating.



On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 9:10 AM, gary easton  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
> What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
> service?
>
> --
> Gary Easton
> Appalachian Renewable Power
> Stewart, Ohio 45778
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV
>
> T: 740-277-8498
>  www.arp-solar.com
>
> “First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
> you win.”
> ~Ghandi
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[Glenn Burt]

705.12(A) NEC 2014
Supply side connection

Sincerely,
Glenn Burt
Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos.

-Original Message-
From: "gary easton" 
Sent: ‎9/‎25/‎2015 9:10
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

Hello Wrenches,
What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
service?

-- 
Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power
Stewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV

T: 740-277-8498
 www.arp-solar.com

“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
you win.”
~Ghandi
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects

[Gary Willett]

  
  
Larry:

The MidNite Solar 250A breakers used for battery bank disconnect,
and the breakers in the "Bird House" controlled roof-top mounted
disconnecting combiners, use a "shunt-trip" mechanism inside the
circuit breaker. This requires a manual reset to restore the
disconnected circuits. This can be inconvenient if the enclosure
housing the shunt-trip breaker is not easily accessible (i.e. on a
two story house with a 6:12 roof pitch.  Something to consider.

Regards, 

Gary Willett PE
Icarus Engineering


On 9/24/15 7:26 PM, Starlight Solar
  Power Systems wrote:


  
  
  William, Ray, 
  
  
  I asked Midnite about using the Aux circuit for
control for ground or arc faults. They said this will (should)
be added on the next firmware update. This means if an arc fault
is detected, the Classic will shut down AND conductors leaving
the array would be de-energized by switching off the HV relay.
All automatically. A second relay could be connected to the
battery for total system shutdown. Should be easy to build a
circuit to re-energize everything after a fault.
  
  
  Wouldn't this automatic method be better than
waiting for someone to throw a switch to shut things down? You
would have to run the low voltage control wire and perhaps put
the relays in an enclosure. A disconnect switch could be in
series for manual shutdown. What am I missing?


Larry   

  

  



  

  
  
  
On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:03 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:


  
   The other
option is Midnite Solar's remote controlled breakers or
combiner boxes.  They make up to a 250 amp breaker, but
I found on large battery systems that we need some thing
larger. Colorado is now requiring Rapid Disconnect for
the batteries as well, which is NOT the original intent
of that article.  Is the Gigavac UL listed?
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 9/24/2015 10:45 AM,
  Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:


  
  William and Wrenches, 
  
  
  I have pondered situations like this one
and wonder the following: If a high voltage DC
solenoid were placed at the PV array and the coil
was controlled by an arc fault detector along with a
means of manually disconnecting, would that not work
to satisfy shut down requirements and safety
concerns? 
  
  
  We have been using 350A, 800 volt
solenoids from Gigavac in our lithium battery system
on both the positive and negative terminals
(controlled by a CPU) to provide 100% disconnect if
case of any battery fault. 

  

  
Larry
  
  

  

  



  On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:26 PM, William
Miller 

wrote:
  
  




  
Dear Fellow Wrenches
 

Below is a design conundrum
that may resonate with some of you:
 

We are finalizing a design for
an off-grid residential system.  The
customer insist the PV should be on the
roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC
conduit from his roof to a crawl space,
in anticipation of a solar install. 
This created real problems, because we
all know we can’t pull PV source or

[RE-wrenches] large array on 200 amp service

[gary easton]

Hello Wrenches,
What are folks doing when installing 100A plus of solar into a 200A
service?

-- 
Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power
Stewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV

T: 740-277-8498
 www.arp-solar.com

“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
you win.”
~Ghandi
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects

[William Miller]

Chris:



Technically, yes, yes and yes.The devil is in the details, however, and
the process is not as easy as you have described it: This job has no
combiners and if it did, the combiner wouldn’t be on the roof.  I don’t
know of a good rooftop combiner (other than Soladeck, see below).



Here are the deviling details.



1.We try to secure PV wiring very carefully under our arrays. This is
to prevent squirrels looking for food, rakes looking to clear leaves and
kids with scrap pipe looking to retrieve Frisbees from engaging in the
leads.  (See:
http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html)

2.As such, we can’t just reach under a rack and blindly snag an MC
connector and pop it loose.  They are not just swinging in the breeze, by
design.  Accessing them requires removing at least one module for each
string, and knowing how many strings and how they are wired.

3.We can’t expect fire fighters to fish around under our arrays in the
smoke and confusion in futile hopes of finding the correct MC connectors to
de-energize all strings.

4.Similarly, we can’t expect the plumber, after accidentally drilling
through the PV conduit, to know how to do this while the conduit is arcing
and sparking and threatening to burn the house down.



I know some of these scenarios are fairly unlikely, but as professionals,
we need to plan for the unexpected.  I believe a well-marked and
conveniently located switch will be the best option, even if that location
is on the roof.  If I were looking for a PV disconnect, I’d look near the
PV.  Particularly if the engraved plaque indicated as much.



Sincerely,



William Miller



PS:  The DC Sunvolt switch arrived today.  It looks solid and we will
install it tomorrow on this roof-mounted off grid system tomorrow.



Wm



PPS:  This discussion branches out in several directions:

1.The job we are on is a residential, roof mounted off-grid.  Normally
we would have 4 to 8 strings of three into Outback controllers and require
combiners.  Mounting a combiner on the roof is not an option.  All models I
am aware of would stick up an spoil the aesthetics of this modest but
high-end, ocean view home.

2.Because we had conduit limitations (see below), we opted for the
Morningstar high voltage controller.  With grounded arrays, this limited
the disconnect to for two strings to two poles, making it affordable.

3.Transformerless inverters are here to stay, but they will require
double the poles of disconnection.  Two poles (one string) = $216.00.  Four
poles (2 strings) = $441.00.



Wm



PPPS: Here’s why we couldn’t use Soladeck on this job:  Soladeck might have
worked here but the roofing is ultra-thick, presidential comp, difficult to
weave a Soladeck into.  Also some idiot preinstalled PVC conduit and we
must have metallic.  Conduit installed is very difficult to install a
Soladeck to as a remodel.  The male adapter needs to be flush with the
decking, easy enough during rough-in, but after the roof is on, it is very
difficult to get to the conduit under the decking to cut in a male adapter



Summary:  Easier said than done.



Wm



[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason
*Sent:* Thursday, September 24, 2015 3:37 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects



I'm not sure I understand this issue. The Morningstar 600V comes with a
disconnect built in, so everything downstream is isolated. Upstream, in the
rare case you need to replace the Morningstar, turn it off, pop out the
fuses in the combiner and work away. If you have a single string
application, unplug an MC4 connector.



On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

"​In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two
Morningstar controllers."



The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally
practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe.



Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC
circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building
main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V
equipment/appliance circuits.



​Jason Szumlanski







On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller 
wrote:

Dear Fellow Wrenches



Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you:



We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system.  The
customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC
conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar
install.  This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV
source or output circuits in (or now, on)  the envelopes of habitable
buildings.



There was no practical way to replace the PVC.  We contrive