Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

2019-11-26 Thread Jeff Clearwater 

Hi Scot and Mike,

Yes It is terribly worded - an AHJ could easily read it and come away 
with the impression that only the TL and TriPower required the neutral 
only for instrumentation and voltage and phase detection - implying the 
rest used the neutral for current.


And your right what do the x's even mean?

I see the SMA author to be Chris Schwegler authored on July 19th, 2019. 
Mike, can you send back to him for a re-write as this won't hold it's 
water to AHJs going forward.


Thanks!

Jeff


scot.a...@solarcentex.com wrote on 11/26/19 6:42 AM:


Mike,

Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than 
fully clear. According to this note, the “The transformer-less series 
of inverters named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny 
Tripower 12/15/20/24000TL-US-10 have a neutral connection that is 
required at installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase 
detection only.”


There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for 
reference only, even though the note is “applicable to the following 
inverter types” and that shows the -41


Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the 
green x indicates.


Can you clarify, please?

simple signature block

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *Harry Mahon

*Sent:* Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater 

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on 
Neutral?


Lloyd – great find!

I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current 
products but has less code detail.


Best regards –

Mike

SMA America
Michael Mahon
Technical Trainer, Solar Academy
6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300

Rocklin, CA 95765

U.S.A.
Mobile: +1 916 918 9412_
www.SMA-America.com _

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*From:* RE-wrenches > *On Behalf Of 
*Lloyd Hoffstatter

*Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM
*To:* Jeff Clearwater >; RE-wrenches 
>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on 
Neutral?


Jeff,

An oldie but attached tech note explains.

May Need to upsize G / N  for voltage drop depending on run…

Best regards,

Lloyd

Lloyd Hoffstatter

Sunstruck Consulting

Sent from Mail 
 
for Windows 10




*From:*RE-wrenches > on behalf of Jeff 
Clearwater >

*Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches >

*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

Hey Folks,

So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there 
is any current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 
inverter?


705.95(B) states:

*Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage
Detection or Phase Detection. *A conductor used solely

Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

2019-11-26 Thread scot.arey 
Mike,

 

Thanks for posting the note, but I find the wording to be less than fully
clear. According to this note, the "The transformer-less series of inverters
named Sunny Boy TL-US-12, Sunny Boy TL-US-22 and Sunny Tripower
12/15/20/24000TL-US-10 have a neutral connection that is required at
installation for instrumentation, voltage and phase detection only."

 

There is no mention of the -41 inverter also using the neutral for reference
only, even though the note is "applicable to the following inverter types"
and that shows the -41

Also, the table has these green x marks but no annotation of what the green
x indicates.

Can you clarify, please?

 

 



 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of
Harry Mahon
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:02 AM
To: RE-wrenches ; Jeff Clearwater

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

 

Lloyd - great find!

 

I am attaching a updated note that specifically calls out current products
but has less code detail.

 

Best regards - 

Mike

 

SMA America
Michael Mahon
Technical Trainer, Solar Academy
6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300

Rocklin, CA 95765

U.S.A.
Mobile:   +1 916 918 9412
www.SMA-America.com  

 

Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html

 

SMA America Solar Academy webinars: 

https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html

Choose "English" and "Online" as filters.

 

 

 
   


  

 
 

 

 

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the
intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or
any attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not
the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and
permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and any
attachments thereto. Thank you.

 

From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> > On Behalf Of Lloyd
Hoffstatter
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:38 AM
To: Jeff Clearwater mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com> >; RE-wrenches
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral?

 

Jeff,

 

An oldie but attached tech note explains.

May Need to upsize G / N  for voltage drop depending on run.

 

Best regards,

 

Lloyd

 

Lloyd Hoffstatter

Sunstruck Consulting

 

Sent from Mail
  for Windows 10

 

  _  

From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> > on behalf of Jeff
Clearwater mailto:je...@villagepowerdesign.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:00:37 PM
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 705.95(B) and Sunny Boys - current on Neutral? 

 

Hey Folks,

So does anyone have a reference I can show my AJH as to whether there is any
current on the neutral of a single phase 240 VAC SB 7.7-40 inverter?

705.95(B) states:

Neutral Conductor for Instrumentation, Voltage
Detection or Phase Detection. A conductor used solely for
instrumentation, voltage detection, or phase detection and
connected to a single-phase or 3-phase utility-interactive
inverter, shall be permitted to be sized at less than the
ampacity of the other current-carrying conductors and shall
be sized equal to or larger than the equipment grounding
conductor.

Be great not have to run 3/0 wire to my dedicated PV subpanel with 5 SB7.7s.
At 200 Amps I could use 6 AWG according to 705.95.  A huge savings in wire
pull hassle not to mention copper.

Are there any other practical considerations for those SBs to operate well
if I were to go that low with the neutral?

Anybody have any field experience with AJHs on this?

Thanks,

Jeff

~~~

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin

Re: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches

2019-11-26 Thread Chris Mason 
If you only want to change over, why not use a contactor with three poles,
a NO and NC contact? that will switch instantly. Use Utility to power the
coil, it will switch to utility when the power is restored.

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:57 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> There is the SMA Automatic transfer switch if you go with the SMA battery
> inverter and SMA pv inverter, it can be located seperate of the battery and
> inverter and will take up to 30 kwhrs. of capacity
> Just a thought
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:52 PM Bill Hennessy  wrote:
>
>> hi folks--
>>
>> We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the
>> service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v,
>> service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the
>> house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from
>> the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the
>> barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are
>> looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't
>> backfeed the grid.
>>
>> When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the
>> barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer
>> switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches
>> seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The
>> switch does not have to be service entrance rated.
>>
>> It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is
>> pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E)
>>
>> The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were
>> hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole.  
>> We're
>> looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will
>> quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored.
>>
>> Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
>>
>> regards, bill
>>
>> Bill Hennessy
>> Berks Solar, LLC
>> 371 Centennial Rd
>> Mertztown, PA 19539
>>
>> o 610 682 4300
>> c 484 560 4666
>> NABCEP certified installer
>> PA contractor #44411
>> www.berkssolar.com
>> ___
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-- 
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Solar systems designer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

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Anguilla Cell  264.235.5670
WhatsApp 264.235.5670
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Re: [RE-wrenches] automatic transfer switches

2019-11-26 Thread Mac Lewis 
Hi Bill,

We just did something like this with a hydro plant and backup solar site.
We ended up using a Kohler RDT transfer switch with the accessory board.
With the accessory board, its possible to adjust down to about ~1 second
transfer, and without the accessory board, its ~3 second transfer.  The RDT
switch is relatively cheap and well made in various builds.  You just need
to keep the backup inverter voltage output continuously on the emergency
terminals.

Good Luck

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:57 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> There is the SMA Automatic transfer switch if you go with the SMA battery
> inverter and SMA pv inverter, it can be located seperate of the battery and
> inverter and will take up to 30 kwhrs. of capacity
> Just a thought
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:52 PM Bill Hennessy  wrote:
>
>> hi folks--
>>
>> We're installing a grid-tied, battery backup system on a farm where the
>> service entrance is on a pole in the yard. At the single-phase, 240v,
>> service entrance, there are two main breaker subpanels--one going to the
>> house and one to the barn. The buildings are each about 100 feet away from
>> the pole in opposite directions. The PV/battery system is located in the
>> barn. When utility power is lost and the battery backup kicks in, we are
>> looking for a way to bypass the house subpanel at the pole so it won't
>> backfeed the grid.
>>
>> When the grid drops out, we need to tie the backup power coming from the
>> barn to the line going to the house. We're thinking an automatic transfer
>> switch installed at the pole will do the job, but the transfer switches
>> seem to have built in delays to work with starting a generator. The
>> switch does not have to be service entrance rated.
>>
>> It looks like the Asco 300 series has time delay adjustments, but it is
>> pricey and has a seven-week lead time. (Thank-you PG&E)
>>
>> The battery backup system will switch over in milliseconds and we were
>> hoping to find something similar for the transfer operation at the pole.  
>> We're
>> looking for something simple--hopefully a basic transfer switch that will
>> quickly switch and drop out when grid power is restored.
>>
>> Would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
>>
>> regards, bill
>>
>> Bill Hennessy
>> Berks Solar, LLC
>> 371 Centennial Rd
>> Mertztown, PA 19539
>>
>> o 610 682 4300
>> c 484 560 4666
>> NABCEP certified installer
>> PA contractor #44411
>> www.berkssolar.com
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
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>>
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>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
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>> ___
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-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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