Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM...equalizing AGM

[Dan Fink]

Thanks for the AGM equalization info, all. My horror stories have all been
with VRLAs. I will start trying the short EQ in the future after seeing the
explanations.not enough time to start releasing moisture.

Best;

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:34 AM Starlight Solar Power Systems <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> Dan, Jay,…
>
> I’m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it;
> some recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years
> of simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers
> that equalize AGM’s are getting much longer battery life compared to
> charging to Mfg. specs. only.
>
> A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If
> the battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb.
> Applying 2.6 Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very
> low. There is not enough current or time to create heat or pressure to
> release moisture.
>
> The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One
> customer that equalizes *daily* is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline
> (Concorde) GPL-4CT batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do
> not EQ seem to get 4-6 years.
>
> This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in
> the electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and
> discharging, some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead
> sulphate after normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in
> hardness and size with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong
> bonds that can't be removed through normal charging. Once this process
> starts (perhaps within 30 days!), these bonds continue to increase. My
> belief is that by applying a temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has
> been recombined, these areas are targeted for recombination. Slowing the
> growth of irreversible sulfation results in retaining higher capacity and
> thus longer cycle life. Just my opinion developed over the years it took me
> to acquire a gray beard.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM...equalizing AGM

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

ter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things
>> 
>> -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks with 
>> car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need lots of 
>> amps right now to thump that bass.
>> 
>> - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this 
>> application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would 
>> recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks 
>> seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't. 
>> Sneaky language in the company name.
>> 
>> -  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock 
>> AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.
>> 
>> - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not 
>> speak English as a first language.
>> 
>> - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label stickers 
>> as an afterthoughtand 30 years cycle life in a solar application? Has 
>> Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody importing Asian AGMs 
>> and sticking them with new stickers.
>> 
>> DAN FINK
>> Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham > <mailto:m...@abrahamsolar.com> wrote:
>> Hello, Drake & All~
>> 
>> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & 
>> whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply 
>> below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing 
>> battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.
>> 
>> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you 
>> first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest 
>> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & 
>> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve 
>> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is 
>> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking 
>> at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable 
>> "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital 
>> display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".
>> 
>> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery 
>> pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are 
>> recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of 
>> attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner 
>> acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. 
>> 
>> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client has 
>> the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting that 
>> reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially blessed to 
>> be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending limited 
>> funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery testing & 
>> tutorials.
>> 
>> The Wrench List is the Bomb~
>> 
>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
>> www.abrahamsolar.com <http://www.abrahamsolar.com/>
>> 
>> Landline: 970-731-4675
>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Drake > <mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>>
>> To: RE-wrenches > <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>> Cc: 
>> Bcc: 
>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> 
>> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle 
>> batteries of the Batcap 
>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>  
>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>brand.
>> 
>> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 
>> AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired  in series 
>> to give a 48 V nominal bank. 
>> 
>> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 
>> years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have 
>> lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for 
>> these batteries being around for a while. 
>> 
>> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[jay]

gt;> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you 
>> first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest 
>> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & 
>> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve 
>> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is 
>> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking 
>> at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable 
>> "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital 
>> display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".
>> 
>> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery 
>> pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are 
>> recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of 
>> attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner 
>> acknowledges that it's time to start afresh. 
>> 
>> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client has 
>> the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting that 
>> reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially blessed to 
>> be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending limited 
>> funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery testing & 
>> tutorials.
>> 
>> The Wrench List is the Bomb~
>> 
>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
>> www.abrahamsolar.com <http://www.abrahamsolar.com/>
>> 
>> Landline: 970-731-4675
>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Drake > <mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>>
>> To: RE-wrenches > <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
>> Cc: 
>> Bcc: 
>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> 
>> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep cycle 
>> batteries of the Batcap 
>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>  
>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>brand.
>> 
>> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 500 
>> AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then wired  in series 
>> to give a 48 V nominal bank. 
>> 
>> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5 
>> years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries have 
>> lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high expectations for 
>> these batteries being around for a while. 
>> 
>> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel 
>> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar. 
>> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause the 
>> bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting into 
>> this bank? $0?
>> 
>> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer. He 
>> could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the bank, 
>> leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Drake 
>> 
>>  <>Drake Chamberlin
>> Athens Electric LLC
>> OH License 44810
>> CO License 3773
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
>> 740-448-7328
>> http://athens-electric.com/ <http://athens-electric.com/> 
>> 
>> ᐧ
>> ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Dan Fink]

rt afresh.
>>
>> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client
>> has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting
>> that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially
>> blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending
>> limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery
>> testing & tutorials.
>>
>> The Wrench List is the Bomb~
>>
>> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
>> www.abrahamsolar.com
>>
>> Landline: 970-731-4675
>> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
>>
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message --
>>> From: Drake 
>>> To: RE-wrenches 
>>> Cc:
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>>
>>> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep
>>> cycle batteries of the Batcap
>>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>
>>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>brand.
>>>
>>> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce *500
>>> AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then wired  in
>>> series to give a 48 V nominal bank.
>>>
>>> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about
>>> 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries
>>> have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high
>>> expectations for these batteries being around for a while.
>>>
>>> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel
>>> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar.
>>> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause
>>> the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting
>>> into this bank? $0?
>>>
>>> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong
>>> installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation?
>>> Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Drake
>>>
>>> Drake Chamberlin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
>>> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/
>>>
>>> ᐧ
>> ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Sindelar Solar]

Well, Jerry, I guess I'm up to speed now, thanks... It's just that your 
explanation here wasn't what I asked about. I was asking about your 
words that "rotating them reduces the effect [of internal resistance to 
charge and even discharge] and may in time help to improve the battery 
life" - I had not heard this, and I also asked how you rotate strings - 
the order of batteries within a string? Mixing batteries among strings? 
Simply rotating the lead positive cell in each string?


So I ask again - is there an online resource you can suggest, so we can 
learn more?


Thanks, Allan

On 11/21/2018 8:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote:

Allan
I have been involved in off grid since the late 70's, l guess l have 
picked up a thing or two. As batteries age most will require higher 
voltage to reach the same specific gravity and will have a lower 
voltage under a load. This is the result of resistance with in the 
battery. This battery may still be good and just needs a good charge 
to get it back to a more normal state.
The entire wire harness from where it leaves the point of charge has 
it's own resistance, every connection, cable end, wire all of it has 
resistance and measuring  this is not as easy as you may think, you 
need to put a preset load on the bank measure the complete circuit 
voltage, now do the same under charge, measure  each battery note 
everything and once done with all the seperate banks you can see where 
the higher resistance is. This is why making all the cables the same 
length and same size, l have seen some cables soldered to reduce 
resistance. This in a long round about reason is why fewer bigger 
banks is better then more smaller batteries. I can continue but you 
should be up to speed now

Jerry

 Original message 
From: Sindelar Solar 

Jerry,

You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I don't 
think I have heard this before, as you have presented it.


How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an 
online source that you can provide?


Thanks, Allan

On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote:

Wrenches, Drake
You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best 
practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least 
a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to 
like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it 
is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm 
sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge 
and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in 
time help to improve the battery life.

Jerry
--


*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[jerrysgarage01]

AllanI have been involved in off grid since the late 70's, l guess l have 
picked up a thing or two. As batteries age most will require higher voltage to 
reach the same specific gravity and will have a lower voltage under a load. 
This is the result of resistance with in the battery. This battery may still be 
good and just needs a good charge to get it back to a more normal state.The 
entire wire harness from where it leaves the point of charge has it's own 
resistance e, every connection, cable end, wire all of it has resistance and 
measuring  this is not as easy as you may think, you need to put a preset load 
on the bank measure the complete circuit voltage, now do the same under charge, 
measure  each battery note everything and once done with all the seperate banks 
you can see where the higher resistance is. This is why making all the cables 
the same length and same size, l have seen some cables soldered to reduce 
resistance. This in a long round about reason is why fewer bigger banks is 
better then more smaller batteries. I can continue but you should be up to 
speed nowJerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Sindelar Solar 
 Date: 11/21/18  11:54 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM 
Jerry,
You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I
  don't think I have heard this before, as you have presented it. 

How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an
  online source that you can provide?
Thanks, Allan

On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01
  wrote:


  
  Wrenches, Drake
  You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a
best practice for the battery configuration, this might be it
but at least a starting point. I have had multi string batteries
that seamed to like being rotated through the bank, sounds like
alot of work and it is but this will swap higher resistance
strings for lower ones. I'm sure you know this but each battery
has internal resistance to charge and even discharge so rotating
them reduces the effect and may in time help to improve the
battery life. 
  Jerry
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Sent from my
  Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
  
  
  
  
 Original message 
From: Drake  
Date: 11/20/18 8:41 AM (GMT-08:00) 
To: RE-wrenches  
    Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM 


  
  Hello Wrenches,
  
  An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V
  Deep
  cycle batteries of the
  Batcap
  
  brand.
  
  The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to
  produce
  500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are
  then
  wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. 
  
  The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is
  about 5
  years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these
  batteries
  have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high
  expectations for these batteries being around for a while. 
  
  My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series -
  parallel
  configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a
  bus
  bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them
  might
  cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is
  worth
  putting into this bank? $0?
  
  The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong
  installer.
  He could use some help. What would you do in this situation?
  Rewire the
  bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.
  
  Thanks,
  
  Drake 
  
  Drake Chamberlin
  Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
  http://athens-electric.com/
  
  
  
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-- 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  


  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@sindelarsolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV Installation
Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician

[RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Mick Abraham]

Allan S. sent follow up queries after my response to Drake's dilemma.
Allan's queries are pasted below.

Mick here: Sorry I didn't state my suggestion more clearly but, yes, in
this situation the only way to know if the battery is worth trying to
salvage is to pump it up nicely with a bunch of energy (meeting the battery
mfr's "full charge parameters" or as close as possible)...shut off the
generator & shut off the solar array...set the Tri-Metric (or other shunt
based monitor) to measure "amp hours from full" & make sure the counter is
starting at 0.00 amp hours from full...then impose loads on the battery
bank & let it all run until the inverter shuts off due to low battery
voltage. (The loads don't have to impose a steady "20 hour discharge rate"
& we're not trying for laboratory accuracy. To give the battery a fair
chance at proving its mettle, be sure the discharge rate is equitably
chosen for the battery type & temperature, etc. To be "equitable", the
servicing technician should run the test in a way that doesn't ask the
battery to perform miraculously...just to perform within its design
parameters.)

Allan correctly states that 1.75 volts per cell is the "industry standard"
discharge cut off point for lead acid batteries (@ 25 degrees C) so if the
system is 48v nominal, that's 24 cells X 1.75 = 42.0 volts as the setpoint
for the inverter's LBCO "low battery cutoff function". The amp-hour monitor
will display the number of amp-hours that the battery was able to deliver
before the inverter crashed on voltage & that value can be compared to the
original rated capacity. So...although I must have muddled my explanation,
Allan, the Tri-Metric type monitors can indeed measure & display the
battery's amp-hour capacity. One must eliminate solar recharge during the
test & any other variables such as generator run time...then there's only a
battery, an inverter, some loads, and the amp-hour counting gizmo.

>>An unhealthy battery will reach the failure point in a fairly short
amount of time & for a fairly small amount of labor.<< A semi-healthy
battery is a greater challenge because it takes longer to wring them out &
the service tech may opt to educate the client on how to complete the "pump
& dump" measurement after the tech leaves the site. If the client can be
persuaded to install a shunt & an amp-hour meter, they'll also have better
instrumentation in place to help them & their service technician down the
road. Some clients will want to try an EQ charge or other measures & the ah
counter will be able to display any improvements that result from those
efforts...or the lack of improvements.

As my Dutch solar buddy would say, "Meten is Weten": "Measuring is
Knowing." A battery based energy system owner who only has a DC voltmeter
is like a car owner whose only instrument is a tire pressure gauge.
Definitely some clients balk at the expense & new learning required to
retrofit a proper ah monitor, but better instrumentation may prove a good
value to them in the long run.

The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham

-- Forwarded message --
From: Sindelar Solar 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:40:55 -0700
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

Mick,

While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the TriMetric,
I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet (or any similar
monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and replaced, but it can't
measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. Only taking the
time to drain the bank at a measured rate will do that, and I have yet to
have a customer want to pay me to do a battery capacity test down to 1.75
vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any rate for that matter. The TriMet is set up
such that the installer tells the TriMet the battery capacity. In a case
such as this, what number would you program into the TM as the amp-hour
capacity? How would you determine this value?

Thanks, Allan
-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Landline: 970-731-4675
Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Sindelar Solar]

Jerry,

You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I don't think 
I have heard this before, as you have presented it.


How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an online 
source that you can provide?


Thanks, Allan

On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote:

Wrenches, Drake
You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best 
practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least 
a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to 
like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it 
is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm 
sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge 
and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in time 
help to improve the battery life.

Jerry



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Drake 
Date: 11/20/18 8:41 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

Hello Wrenches,

An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep 
cycle batteries of the Batcap 
<http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html> 
<http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>brand.


The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 
*500 AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then 
wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank.


The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is 
about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these 
batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has 
high expectations for these batteries being around for a while.


My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel 
configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus 
bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them 
might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money 
is worth putting into this bank? $0?


The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong 
installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this 
situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the 
hills.


Thanks,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
/Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
/http://athens-electric.com/

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--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Ray]

I agree with Allan,  I have never done a full load test on a battery 
bank.  The customers experience usually provides the necessary info.  In 
this case there is no question the battery bank needs replacing.   Here 
are the reasons to replace in summary:


1)  Battery wiring in parallel/ then series, with too many parallel strings

2) Age of the batteries, 5 years is not bad for an average AGM in even 
good conditions.


3) Odd brand not suited for solar, with outrageous life expectancy claims.

4) 100 AH, 12 v batteries are just not the right choice for anything 
over a single series string.  Larger 6 v batteries are always preferred 
when possible and have longer cycle life because of thicker plates.


5) Wide variance in voltages between batteries (13 to 15 v?)

6) Customer's experience: obviously the service call came in, because 
the system wasn't performing properly anymore.


Load testing this mess is just a further waste of everyone's time.  
Temporarily rewiring the best batteries into a normal series/ parallel 
configuration with maybe 3 strings at most could regain a bit of 
performance until the the new set can be installed.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 11/21/18 11:40 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote:


Mick,

While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the 
TriMetric, I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet 
(or any similar monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and 
replaced, but it can't measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour 
capacity. Only taking the time to drain the bank at a measured rate 
will do that, and I have yet to have a customer want to pay me to do a 
battery capacity test down to 1.75 vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any 
rate for that matter. The TriMet is set up such that the installer 
tells the TriMet the battery capacity. In a case such as this, what 
number would you program into the TM as the amp-hour capacity? How 
would you determine this value?


Thanks, Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 11/20/2018 11:28 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:
> Hello, Drake & All~
>
> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere 
& whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My 
reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the 
existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.

>
> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I 
suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering 
shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be 
used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the 
client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for 
explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the 
health of a battery bank by just looking at it or talking about 
it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable "battery bad news" 
if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital display after 
an equitably managed "pump & dump".

>
> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery 
pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements 
are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series 
of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the 
homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.

>
> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the 
client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible 
at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't 
materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be 
better off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator 
instead of on battery testing & tutorials.

>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Drake 
>     To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 
V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand.

>
> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to 
produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then 
wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank.

>
> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank 
is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that 
these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so 
he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while.

>
> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Sindelar Solar]

Mick,

While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the 
TriMetric, I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet 
(or any similar monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and 
replaced, but it can't measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour 
capacity. Only taking the time to drain the bank at a measured rate will 
do that, and I have yet to have a customer want to pay me to do a 
battery capacity test down to 1.75 vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any rate 
for that matter. The TriMet is set up such that the installer tells the 
TriMet the battery capacity. In a case such as this, what number would 
you program into the TM as the amp-hour capacity? How would you 
determine this value?


Thanks, Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 11/20/2018 11:28 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:
> Hello, Drake & All~
>
> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere 
& whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My 
reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the 
existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.

>
> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I 
suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt 
& a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to 
measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client 
won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the 
service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery 
bank by just looking at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes 
receive the inevitable "battery bad news" if they are shown the 
diminished capacity on a digital display after an equitably managed 
"pump & dump".

>
> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery 
pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are 
recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of 
attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the 
homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.

>
> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the 
client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible 
at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't 
materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better 
off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of 
on battery testing & tutorials.

>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Drake 
>     To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V 
Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand.

>
> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to 
produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then 
wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank.

>
> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is 
about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these 
batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has 
high expectations for these batteries being around for a while.

>
> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - 
parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this 
without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and 
rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How 
much money is worth putting into this bank? $0?

>
> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong 
installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? 
Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.

>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Words of wisdom Hilton. I saw a few of these types of systems during the
wildfires here this summer. It was hard to leave people without power in
the smoke and ruin. The guy who took the job has been blamed for
everything. My quote was complete replacement of everything except the
solar panels.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:09:02 -0500, Hilton Dier 
wrote:
> Hi Drake
> 
> I vote for option 3: run like the wind. If you touch it you own it. With
> that voltage variation there has to be some deterioration, so the bank
will
> never run right no matter what you do. Of course if you change anything
it
> will be your fault that it doesn’t work.
> 
> If anything, I’d recommend that you tell the guy his bank was installed
in
> a way guaranteed to ruin it and that it is in fact ruined. Then lace up
> your track shoes and sprint. If you take the job to replace it he will
> always harbor a suspicion that you just wanted to make the money on a
new
> battery bank. 
> 
> The most important client is the one you don’t take. 
> 
> Hilton Dier III
> Renewable Energy Design
> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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[RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Hilton Dier]

Hi Drake

I vote for option 3: run like the wind. If you touch it you own it. With that 
voltage variation there has to be some deterioration, so the bank will never 
run right no matter what you do. Of course if you change anything it will be 
your fault that it doesn’t work.

If anything, I’d recommend that you tell the guy his bank was installed in a 
way guaranteed to ruin it and that it is in fact ruined. Then lace up your 
track shoes and sprint. If you take the job to replace it he will always harbor 
a suspicion that you just wanted to make the money on a new battery bank. 

The most important client is the one you don’t take. 

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Ray]

Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan,  a system 
wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series 
connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and 
discharge evenly.  Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings 
rule, so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years. My guess is that some of 
the batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since 
they were so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a 
few of the best ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off 
grid solar is "Batteries are the Weakest Link".  The customer is not 
going to have a decent experience until they replace that mess with a 
properly sized and wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer.


I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff.  I 
don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this 
battery bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If 
he bought these new, that's a very expensive battery bank!


Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour 
sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a 
whole bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer 
overrun etc."


My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things

-The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx 
punks with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. 
They need lots of amps right now to thump that bass.


- The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this 
application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it 
would recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But 
some folks seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor 
involved. There isn't. Sneaky language in the company name.


-  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a 
stock AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.


- Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does 
not speak English as a first language.


- "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label 
stickers as an afterthoughtand 30 years cycle life in a solar 
application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody 
importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers.


DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342



On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham <mailto:m...@abrahamsolar.com> wrote:


Hello, Drake & All~

Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought
elsewhere & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring
(copied below). My reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too
eager to declare the existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.

Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I
suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering
shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which
could be used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour
capacity. If the client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly
labor for explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can
measure the health of a battery bank by just looking at it or
talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable
"battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a
digital display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".

Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the
battery pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour
measurements are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common
pattern is a series of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay,
of course--until the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to
start afresh.

Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the
client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally
terrible at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the
client isn't materially blessed to be able to get new batteries,
they might be better off spending limited funds on fuel for the
engine generator instead of on battery testing & tutorials.

The Wrench List is the Bomb~

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com <http://www.abrahamsolar.com>

Landline: 970-731-4675
Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584


-- Forwarded message --
From: Drake mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>>
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
Subject: [RE

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Dan Fink]

Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery
bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought
these new, that's a very expensive battery bank!

Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed
lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch
of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc."

My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things

-The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks
with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need
lots of amps right now to thump that bass.

- The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this
application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would
recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks
seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't.
Sneaky language in the company name.

-  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock
AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.

- Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not
speak English as a first language.

- "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label
stickers as an afterthoughtand 30 years cycle life in a solar
application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody
importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers.

DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342



On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham  Hello, Drake & All~
>
> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere &
> whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply
> below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing
> battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.
>
> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest
> you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest
> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure &
> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve
> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is
> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking
> at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable
> "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital
> display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".
>
> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery
> pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are
> recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of
> attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner
> acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.
>
> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client
> has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting
> that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially
> blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending
> limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery
> testing & tutorials.
>
> The Wrench List is the Bomb~
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Landline: 970-731-4675
> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Drake 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep
>> cycle batteries of the Batcap
>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>
>> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>brand.
>>
>> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce *500
>> AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then wired  in
>> series to give a 48 V nominal bank.
>>
>> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5
>> years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries
>> have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high
>> expectations for these batteries being around for a while.
>>
>> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel
>> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar.
>> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause
>> the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. Ho

[RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Mick Abraham]

Hello, Drake & All~

Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere &
whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply
below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing
battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.

Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest
you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest
amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure &
display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve
that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is
hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking
at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable
"battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital
display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".

Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery
pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are
recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of
attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner
acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.

Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client
has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting
that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially
blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending
limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery
testing & tutorials.

The Wrench List is the Bomb~

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Landline: 970-731-4675
Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584

>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Drake 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep
> cycle batteries of the Batcap
> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>
> <http://www.xstaticbatcap.com/what-is-a-batcap-.html>brand.
>
> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce *500
> AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then wired  in
> series to give a 48 V nominal bank.
>
> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5
> years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries
> have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high
> expectations for these batteries being around for a while.
>
> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel
> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar.
> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause
> the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting
> into this bank? $0?
>
> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer.
> He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the
> bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/
>
> ᐧ
ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[jerrysgarage01]

Wrenches, DrakeYou may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a 
best practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least a 
starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to like being 
rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it is but this will swap 
higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm sure you know this but each 
battery has internal resistance to charge and even discharge so rotating them 
reduces the effect and may in time help to improve the battery life. JerrySent 
from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Drake 
 Date: 11/20/18  8:41 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: 
RE-wrenches  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap 
AGM 
Hello Wrenches,
An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep
cycle batteries of the
Batcap

brand.
The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce
500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then
wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. 
The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5
years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries
have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high
expectations for these batteries being around for a while. 
My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel
configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus
bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might
cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth
putting into this bank? $0?
The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer.
He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the
bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.
Thanks,
Drake 
Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

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[RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Drake]

Hello Wrenches,

An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V 
Deep cycle batteries of the 
Batcap 
brand.


The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to 
produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are 
then wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank.


The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is 
about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these 
batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has 
high expectations for these batteries being around for a while.


My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel 
configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a 
bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them 
might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money 
is worth putting into this bank? $0?


The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong 
installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this 
situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.


Thanks,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/
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