Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I have used Egauge in this situation many times.  They even have
revenue-grade Current Transformers.(CTs)
Their tech support is good,  I find even I can set them up easily.  They
use normal English in their documentation.

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 3:21 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be
> installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of
> Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System
>
> The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is
> actually using
> And how much the solar electric system is producing
>
> In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client
> gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted
> from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is
> consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Kent via RE-wrenches]

If the inverter(s) provided energy production data, you would already 
have all the information you really need. Sounds like it must not. So, 
if you are looking for something that is relative inexpensive and 
reasonably accurate, but not revenue grade, you could use an Efergy True 
Power meter  to measure the solar energy 
produced. It provides daily energy produced or used on the circuit being 
measured for seven days. Then the data roll up into weekly and monthly 
totals. This device doesn't communicate via the internet so there is no 
data storage on a cloud server. I have been using one on my personal 
system for many years. Transmits about 200 feet from the PV array to the 
portable monitor that I keep at the house.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 5/11/2023 1:20 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote:

Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be 
installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of 
Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System

The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually 
using
And how much the solar electric system is producing

In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets 
to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the 
actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero 
because the usage exceeds the production

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Lary do you want analog or digital, egauge is great for remote monitoring
or just your basis utility meter and socket is a inexpensive solution a
simple results.
Jerry

On Thu, May 11, 2023, 1:21 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be
> installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of
> Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System
>
> The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is
> actually using
> And how much the solar electric system is producing
>
> In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client
> gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted
> from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is
> consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

If they dont need revenue grade measurements, I recommend the Sense monitoring 
unit.I have had one in my house for years and it is inexpensive and gives me at 
a glance status on their website amd their mobile app.Clip on a couple of CT's, 
install a breaker for power and connect it to their WiFi.-GlennSent from my 
'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- Original 
message--From: Larry Brown via RE-wrenchesDate: Thu, May 11, 2023 4:21 
PMTo: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Larry Brown;Subject:[RE-wrenches] 
MeteringDoes anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be 
installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of 
Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System

The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually 
using
And how much the solar electric system is producing

In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets 
to see on their bill is
 the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the actual usage. In this 
case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero because the usage 
exceeds the production

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

If you have a built in monitoring system for the PV (inverter's onboard 
metering?) that should tell you PV production, and then subtract that 
from the monthly utility readings to get the household loads.  I don't 
see the need for a separate inline meter, but I guess it depends how 
sophisticated the data needs to be.  Is your client just curious, or are 
they building some monster spread sheet that updates on a 15 minute 
interval?  Its all about the time interval they want.  Usually monthly 
intervals are plenty for most home owners, and that doesn't take 
metering magic, just some arithmetic.


Check out the E Guage, it can do what you want.  Personally I don't like 
being on the hook to support stuff like that years later.  I've already 
had trouble with Blue Planet dropping support of their phone app, which 
pissed some customers off, so I'm not into too many bells and whistles 
that I have to keep supporting down the road.  I've got clients that 
have systems over 20 years old, so support becomes a bigger issue, the 
longer you're in business.   Fancy monitoring = double the call backs.


Here's all they need to do: Get the monthly electric bill, check the 
cumulative production on the PV system, and then do some subtraction.  
Pretty simple for them, and you only get a call, if the inverter 
production is low or off.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 5/11/2023 2:20 PM, Larry Brown via RE-wrenches wrote:

Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be 
installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of 
Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System

The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually 
using
And how much the solar electric system is producing

In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets 
to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the 
actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero 
because the usage exceeds the production

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Sam Haraldson via RE-wrenches]

The following are brands I have used and trust.

eGauge - https://www.egauge.net/
Emporia Vue - https://www.emporiaenergy.com/how-the-vue-energy-monitor-works

Verify there is available space within the main service to install the
current transformers for the mains.  Also verify there is space and a
raceway provision (if necessary) for wiring the CT(s) measuring the solar
backfeed.  Lastly, verify there is an available space for powering the
device.

Cheers,
Sam

On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 2:21 PM Larry Brown via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be
> installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of
> Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System
>
> The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is
> actually using
> And how much the solar electric system is producing
>
> In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client
> gets to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted
> from the actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is
> consistently zero because the usage exceeds the production
>
> Thanks
>
> Larry Brown
> Sun Mountain
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Metering

[Larry Brown via RE-wrenches]

Does anyone have a recommendation for a high quality meter that can be 
installed near the Main 200 Amp Electric Service Panel at the Point Of 
Interconnection in the Main Service Panel for a Grid Tied System

The client wants to be able to track the electricity the household is actually 
using
And how much the solar electric system is producing

In the net metering arrangement with Central Hudson in NY, all the client gets 
to see on their bill is the net result of the solar credits subtracted from the 
actual usage. In this case, the solar generated credits is consistently zero 
because the usage exceeds the production

Thanks

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[August Goers]

Hi Bill,



You have a good point about the burden of monitoring and how to keep up
with it. We have hundreds of monitored sites, some Enphase and some others,
and it is impossible to really check them thoroughly. However, most
monitoring sites have some basic warning capabilities which I find useful.
For example, Enphase will send us and the client an email if their system
stops producing power or if there is another type of inverter error. It
won’t catch minor issues but it does catch the major issues. SunPower has a
dashboard we log into each morning to catch any major problems – especially
“inverter down” errors. I’m hoping SunPower will implement an email warning
system as well.



The main problem I see with installing microinverters without the
proprietary monitoring device (Envoy for Enphase, CDD for ABB, etc) is that
there is no easy way for the client to know if all their micros are working
– there is no green light or red light to check.



Here in the Bay Area we’re finding more and more competitors selling leases
and production guarantees. I imagine that the larger of these companies
have some sort of automated monitoring system to check production but I
don’t know for certain. With our SunPower leases, SunPower sends us a
monthly email with production updates versus the simulated estimate based
on our shade and site conditions. This is a really quick way to see how our
fleet is doing.



To Ray Walters’ point about powerline communication with Enphase, we’ve had
very reliable monitoring with our Envoys once we started installing a
dedicated receptacle for the Envoy at the same load center where we
installed our microinverter breakers. I can’t think of a single instance
where communication hasn’t been reliable.



We also don’t sell monitoring to clients who show little interest in it.
They can check their string inverter on a regular basis or keep their eyes
on their bills and it does make everyone’s life a little easier.



Anyway, there is no doubt that monitoring adds a lot of overhead to our
business and we are trying to figure out better ways to setup expectations
with clients. As I’ve posted in the past, we end up dealing with a lot of
IT issues for homeowners.



Best,



August



Luminalt



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *frenergy
*Sent:* Monday, September 29, 2014 7:02 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering



All,



Great points and a little education of others' feelings about,
essentially how granular we need to be in monitoring.



I'm curious who is monitoring the Enphase systems in the solar
world, seriously.  I know 95% of my customers are more concerned about
catching the bus or what's for dinner than if PV #8 has bird crap on it.
Do the folks at Enphase, through Enlighten have some software that spots
issues?  I know I, as an installer don't have time for it.  My experience
is the customer notices their power bill was higher last month, they take a
look at the inverter and no green light...CALL BILL.



Thanks folks for the resources for meters, din rail too.



Bill



- Original Message -

*From:* Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com

*To:* 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

*Sent:* Monday, September 29, 2014 5:17 PM

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering



I would not classify what we are doing in PV as SCADA.



It is purely data acquisition at this point, and more commonly referred to
as DAS or a Data Acquisition System.

SCADA by its definition entails a two way path of both receiving data and
being able to send control signals, usually from a big picture program,
monitoring dozens of data points.

Let’s not try to make the simple into a more complex thing than it is.



-Glenn



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters
*Sent:* Monday, September 29, 2014 2:31 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering



The 2nd problem with the Envoy besides cost is that it isn't always
reliable.Communication through power lines is not a new or fresh idea,
and has Always been problematic.  Once you install something you are
expected to make it work, and that can be a nightmare on say an 8 module
system that keeps losing communication to one or two modules.  I've had
this exact case, and confirmed multiple times that each micro was working,
but the Envoy had other ideas.
This rush to mega data acquisition makes sense for larger PPA systems, but
can just add tons of call backs and the resulting financial losses and
frustrations for small systems.
I've spent as much time messing with SCADA, as I have with the entire
install itself; now that's ridiculous.  This isn't new either:  I had
SCADA systems back in the 90s, that had great promise, but ultimately were
extremely hard to implement, and the customer never used after anyway..
The question

Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[William Miller]

Friends:

 

Supposedly the SMA Portal will email alerts.  Can anyone describe their 
experience with this product?

 

Thanks,

 

William

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
 http://www.millersolar.com/ millersolar.com
805-438-5600

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[August Goers]

Hi William,



Yes, the Sunny Portal can be configured to send email alerts. Out of all
the monitoring systems I’ve tried, I like SMA’s setup the best. You just go
to the plant, go to configuration…report configuration, and then setup
email alerts as you wish. You can choose simple daily or monthly production
reports or error reports and choose who the email(s) go to. It is a nice
configurable system.



Best, August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *William Miller
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:34 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering



Friends:



Supposedly the SMA Portal will email alerts.  Can anyone describe their
experience with this product?



Thanks,



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/
805-438-5600
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Nick Soleil]

Hello esteemed wrenches,

I want to respond to Bill's questions about monitoring Enphase systems.
The email alerts are the primary method for alerting homeowners to issues
with their site, but we have also developed tools for managing fleets of
systems within Enlighten.  As an installer, when you first log into
Enlighten Manager you will be brought to your Installer Dashboard page.
The Installer Dashboard can be configured with various widgets, including a
Maintenance Alerts widget which will provide you with a  list of systems
that are experiencing Production Issues or other reporting issues.  This
prevent you from having to select each system individually.  Also, the
Systems page can be used to view daily, weekly, monthly, or lifetime energy
production of every system you've installed.

The email alerts can be configured to alert you and/or the homeowner to
production issues, but can also be configured to send alerts based upon
monthly production thresholds that you set.  If a system produces less than
the estimated production, an email will be sent to the homeowner and/or the
installer.  This is nice because the alerts occurs without the homeowner
monitoring their electric bill and checking for blinking lights.

I also want to echo some of the points that August made, particularly with
regard to installing a dedicated receptacle for the monitor. My experience,
like August's,  is that locating the Envoy on a dedicated receptacle that
is wired off the same load center/ panel board as the microinverters will
lead to reliable communications.


On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 7:53 AM, August Goers aug...@luminalt.com wrote:

 Hi Bill,



 You have a good point about the burden of monitoring and how to keep up
 with it. We have hundreds of monitored sites, some Enphase and some others,
 and it is impossible to really check them thoroughly. However, most
 monitoring sites have some basic warning capabilities which I find useful.
 For example, Enphase will send us and the client an email if their system
 stops producing power or if there is another type of inverter error. It
 won’t catch minor issues but it does catch the major issues. SunPower has a
 dashboard we log into each morning to catch any major problems – especially
 “inverter down” errors. I’m hoping SunPower will implement an email warning
 system as well.



 The main problem I see with installing microinverters without the
 proprietary monitoring device (Envoy for Enphase, CDD for ABB, etc) is that
 there is no easy way for the client to know if all their micros are working
 – there is no green light or red light to check.



 Here in the Bay Area we’re finding more and more competitors selling
 leases and production guarantees. I imagine that the larger of these
 companies have some sort of automated monitoring system to check production
 but I don’t know for certain. With our SunPower leases, SunPower sends us a
 monthly email with production updates versus the simulated estimate based
 on our shade and site conditions. This is a really quick way to see how our
 fleet is doing.



 To Ray Walters’ point about powerline communication with Enphase, we’ve
 had very reliable monitoring with our Envoys once we started installing a
 dedicated receptacle for the Envoy at the same load center where we
 installed our microinverter breakers. I can’t think of a single instance
 where communication hasn’t been reliable.



 We also don’t sell monitoring to clients who show little interest in it.
 They can check their string inverter on a regular basis or keep their eyes
 on their bills and it does make everyone’s life a little easier.



 Anyway, there is no doubt that monitoring adds a lot of overhead to our
 business and we are trying to figure out better ways to setup expectations
 with clients. As I’ve posted in the past, we end up dealing with a lot of
 IT issues for homeowners.



 Best,



 August



 Luminalt



 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
 Behalf Of *frenergy
 *Sent:* Monday, September 29, 2014 7:02 PM

 *To:* RE-wrenches
 *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering



 All,



 Great points and a little education of others' feelings about,
 essentially how granular we need to be in monitoring.



 I'm curious who is monitoring the Enphase systems in the solar
 world, seriously.  I know 95% of my customers are more concerned about
 catching the bus or what's for dinner than if PV #8 has bird crap on it.
 Do the folks at Enphase, through Enlighten have some software that spots
 issues?  I know I, as an installer don't have time for it.  My experience
 is the customer notices their power bill was higher last month, they take a
 look at the inverter and no green light...CALL BILL.



 Thanks folks for the resources for meters, din rail too.



 Bill



 - Original Message -

 *From:* Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com

 *To:* 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

 *Sent

Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Chris Mason]

We are using some cheap DIN rail mounted meters KWh and Power.

https://www.google.com.ai/search?q=din+mounted+kwh+meterespv=2biw=1417bih=651tbm=ischimgil=_2bn5GdNKZlXVM%253A%253BodfkJDUWrivfzM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.fymeter.com%25252Fproductshow%25252F%25253F61-1-Energy-Meter.htmlsource=iupf=mfir=_2bn5GdNKZlXVM%253A%252CodfkJDUWrivfzM%252C_usg=__Qv34AxVW5xcSROJoU7JxfYCoSww%3Dved=0CCkQyjcei=3X0oVPnkNIyRyATq6oGIAQ#facrc=_imgdii=_imgrc=_2bn5GdNKZlXVM%253A%3BodfkJDUWrivfzM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.fymeter.com%252Fuploadfile%252F20111015225714406.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.fymeter.com%252Fproductshow%252F%253F61-1-Energy-Meter.html%3B858%3B492


On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 5:25 PM, frenergy frene...@psln.com wrote:

  CA wrenches,

 I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired customers)
 figure out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small enphase systems.
 One of my local utilities will allow me to just use a remanufactured
 utility-grade meter (ala AEE) These meters are inexpensive, robust and
 accurate but only display total production.

 The Envoy retails for over $5 bills.  Most of my customers are not
 interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not after a
 couple weeks.  I can't seem to find any requirement from PGE other than in
 Section 5.1 of the guidebook:  All systems receiving an EPBB incentive
 must install a production meter accurate to +- 5% of actual system
 output   which is pretty vague.  plus the is no CSI incentive
 anymore.

 Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu
 utility meter?and possibly gives current wattage output, and is
 approved by PGE interconnection?

 TIA

 Bill

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Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com http://www.cometenergysystems.com
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Christopher Warfel]

Bill, The refurbished utility meter is the lowest cost option that meets 
the requirements of accuracy for RECs that I am aware of. Chris

On 9/28/2014 5:25 PM, frenergy wrote:

CA wrenches,
I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired 
customers) figure out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small 
enphase systems.  One of my local utilities will allow me to just use 
a remanufactured utility-grade meter (ala AEE) These meters are 
inexpensive, robust and accurate but only display total production.
The Envoy retails for over $5 bills.  Most of my customers are 
not interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not 
after a couple weeks.  I can't seem to find any requirement from 
PGE other than in Section 5.1 of the guidebook:  All systems 
receiving an EPBB incentive must install a production meter accurate 
to +- 5% of actual system output   which is pretty vague.  
plus the is no CSI incentive  anymore.
Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu 
utility meter?and possibly gives current wattage output, and is 
approved by PGE interconnection?

TIA
Bill


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--
Christopher Warfel, President
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[August Goers]

Hi Bill,



One of the largest benefits of the microinverter system, in my opinion, is
the ability to monitor each module individually. It might seem like ~$500
is a lot for the Envoy but I think it is well worth it when you think about
the 25 year warranty period and included ongoing monitoring. We’ve had
enough Enphase failures that I would personally really want to be able to
keep my eye on each micro individually.



Just a thought, August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *frenergy
*Sent:* Sunday, September 28, 2014 2:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Metering



CA wrenches,



I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired customers)
figure out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small enphase systems.
One of my local utilities will allow me to just use a remanufactured
utility-grade meter (ala AEE) These meters are inexpensive, robust and
accurate but only display total production.



The Envoy retails for over $5 bills.  Most of my customers are not
interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not after a
couple weeks.  I can't seem to find any requirement from PGE other than in
Section 5.1 of the guidebook:  All systems receiving an EPBB incentive
must install a production meter accurate to +- 5% of actual system
output   which is pretty vague.  plus the is no CSI incentive
anymore.



Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu utility
meter?and possibly gives current wattage output, and is approved by
PGE interconnection?



TIA



Bill
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[toddcory]

this is where i get mine:http://www.visionmetering.com/products/refurbished-electric-meters/



On Monday, September 29, 2014 7:12am, "Christopher Warfel" cwar...@entech-engineering.com said:
Bill, The refurbished utility meter is the lowest cost option that meets the requirements of accuracy for RECs that I am aware of. Chris
On 9/28/2014 5:25 PM, frenergy wrote:

CA wrenches,

  I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired customers) figure out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small enphase systems. One of my local utilities will allow me to just use a remanufactured utility-grade meter (ala AEE) These meters are inexpensive, robust and accurate but only display total production.

  The Envoy retails for over $5 bills. Most of my customers are not interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not after a couple weeks. I can't seem to find any requirement from PGEother than in Section 5.1 of the guidebook: "All systems receiving an EPBB incentive must install a production meter accurate to +- 5% of actual system output" which is pretty vague. plus the is no CSI incentive anymore.

 Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu utility meter?and possibly gives current wattage output,and is "approved" by PGE interconnection?

TIA

Bill


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-- 
Christopher Warfel, President
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Ray Walters]

The 2nd problem with the Envoy besides cost is that it isn't always 
reliable.Communication through power lines is not a new or fresh 
idea, and has Always been problematic.  Once you install something you 
are expected to make it work, and that can be a nightmare on say an 8 
module system that keeps losing communication to one or two modules.  
I've had this exact case, and confirmed multiple times that each micro 
was working, but the Envoy had other ideas.
This rush to mega data acquisition makes sense for larger PPA systems, 
but can just add tons of call backs and the resulting financial losses 
and frustrations for small systems.
I've spent as much time messing with SCADA, as I have with the entire 
install itself; now that's ridiculous.  This isn't new either:  I had  
SCADA systems back in the 90s, that had great promise, but ultimately 
were extremely hard to implement, and the customer never used after 
anyway..

The question is:
What does the customer really need to operate the system vs. bells and 
whistles.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 9/29/2014 12:12 PM, August Goers wrote:


Hi Bill,

One of the largest benefits of the microinverter system, in my 
opinion, is the ability to monitor each module individually. It might 
seem like ~$500 is a lot for the Envoy but I think it is well worth it 
when you think about the 25 year warranty period and included ongoing 
monitoring. We've had enough Enphase failures that I would personally 
really want to be able to keep my eye on each micro individually.


Just a thought, August

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of 
*frenergy

*Sent:* Sunday, September 28, 2014 2:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Metering

CA wrenches,

I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired 
customers) figure out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small 
enphase systems.  One of my local utilities will allow me to just use 
a remanufactured utility-grade meter (ala AEE) These meters are 
inexpensive, robust and accurate but only display total production.


The Envoy retails for over $5 bills.  Most of my customers are 
not interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not 
after a couple weeks.  I can't seem to find any requirement from 
PGE other than in Section 5.1 of the guidebook:  All systems 
receiving an EPBB incentive must install a production meter accurate 
to +- 5% of actual system output   which is pretty vague.  
plus the is no CSI incentive  anymore.


Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu 
utility meter?and possibly gives current wattage output, and is 
approved by PGE interconnection?


TIA

Bill



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[Glenn Burt]

I would not classify what we are doing in PV as SCADA.

 

It is purely data acquisition at this point, and more commonly referred to
as DAS or a Data Acquisition System.

SCADA by its definition entails a two way path of both receiving data and
being able to send control signals, usually from a big picture program,
monitoring dozens of data points.

Let's not try to make the simple into a more complex thing than it is.

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 2:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

 

The 2nd problem with the Envoy besides cost is that it isn't always
reliable.Communication through power lines is not a new or fresh idea,
and has Always been problematic.  Once you install something you are
expected to make it work, and that can be a nightmare on say an 8 module
system that keeps losing communication to one or two modules.  I've had this
exact case, and confirmed multiple times that each micro was working, but
the Envoy had other ideas.
This rush to mega data acquisition makes sense for larger PPA systems, but
can just add tons of call backs and the resulting financial losses and
frustrations for small systems.
I've spent as much time messing with SCADA, as I have with the entire
install itself; now that's ridiculous.  This isn't new either:  I had  SCADA
systems back in the 90s, that had great promise, but ultimately were
extremely hard to implement, and the customer never used after anyway..
The question is: 
What does the customer really need to operate the system vs. bells and
whistles.



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 9/29/2014 12:12 PM, August Goers wrote:

Hi Bill,

 

One of the largest benefits of the microinverter system, in my opinion, is
the ability to monitor each module individually. It might seem like ~$500 is
a lot for the Envoy but I think it is well worth it when you think about the
25 year warranty period and included ongoing monitoring. We've had enough
Enphase failures that I would personally really want to be able to keep my
eye on each micro individually.

 

Just a thought, August

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of frenergy
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 2:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering

 

CA wrenches,

 

I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired customers)
figure out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small enphase systems.  One
of my local utilities will allow me to just use a remanufactured
utility-grade meter (ala AEE) These meters are inexpensive, robust and
accurate but only display total production.  

 

The Envoy retails for over $5 bills.  Most of my customers are not
interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not after a
couple weeks.  I can't seem to find any requirement from PGE other than in
Section 5.1 of the guidebook:  All systems receiving an EPBB incentive must
install a production meter accurate to +- 5% of actual system output
which is pretty vague.  plus the is no CSI incentive  anymore.

 

Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu utility
meter?and possibly gives current wattage output, and is approved by
PGE interconnection?

 

TIA

 

Bill








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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

[frenergy]

All,

Great points and a little education of others' feelings about, 
essentially how granular we need to be in monitoring.   

I'm curious who is monitoring the Enphase systems in the solar world, 
seriously.  I know 95% of my customers are more concerned about catching the 
bus or what's for dinner than if PV #8 has bird crap on it.  Do the folks at 
Enphase, through Enlighten have some software that spots issues?  I know I, as 
an installer don't have time for it.  My experience is the customer notices 
their power bill was higher last month, they take a look at the inverter and no 
green light...CALL BILL.

Thanks folks for the resources for meters, din rail too.

Bill


  - Original Message - 
  From: Glenn Burt 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 5:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering


  I would not classify what we are doing in PV as SCADA.

   

  It is purely data acquisition at this point, and more commonly referred to as 
DAS or a Data Acquisition System.

  SCADA by its definition entails a two way path of both receiving data and 
being able to send control signals, usually from a big picture program, 
monitoring dozens of data points.

  Let's not try to make the simple into a more complex thing than it is.

   

  -Glenn

   

  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
Behalf Of Ray Walters
  Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 2:31 PM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering

   

  The 2nd problem with the Envoy besides cost is that it isn't always reliable. 
   Communication through power lines is not a new or fresh idea, and has Always 
been problematic.  Once you install something you are expected to make it work, 
and that can be a nightmare on say an 8 module system that keeps losing 
communication to one or two modules.  I've had this exact case, and confirmed 
multiple times that each micro was working, but the Envoy had other ideas.
  This rush to mega data acquisition makes sense for larger PPA systems, but 
can just add tons of call backs and the resulting financial losses and 
frustrations for small systems.
  I've spent as much time messing with SCADA, as I have with the entire install 
itself; now that's ridiculous.  This isn't new either:  I had  SCADA systems 
back in the 90s, that had great promise, but ultimately were extremely hard to 
implement, and the customer never used after anyway..
  The question is: 
  What does the customer really need to operate the system vs. bells and 
whistles.



R.Ray WaltersCTO, Solarray, IncNabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master 
ElectricianSolar Design Engineer303 505-8760On 9/29/2014 12:12 PM, August Goers 
wrote:

Hi Bill,

 

One of the largest benefits of the microinverter system, in my opinion, is 
the ability to monitor each module individually. It might seem like ~$500 is a 
lot for the Envoy but I think it is well worth it when you think about the 25 
year warranty period and included ongoing monitoring. We've had enough Enphase 
failures that I would personally really want to be able to keep my eye on each 
micro individually.

 

Just a thought, August

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
Behalf Of frenergy
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 2:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering

 

CA wrenches,

 

I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired customers) 
figure out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small enphase systems.  One of 
my local utilities will allow me to just use a remanufactured utility-grade 
meter (ala AEE) These meters are inexpensive, robust and accurate but only 
display total production.  

 

The Envoy retails for over $5 bills.  Most of my customers are not 
interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not after a couple 
weeks.  I can't seem to find any requirement from PGE other than in Section 
5.1 of the guidebook:  All systems receiving an EPBB incentive must install a 
production meter accurate to +- 5% of actual system output   which is 
pretty vague.  plus the is no CSI incentive  anymore.

 

Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu utility 
meter?and possibly gives current wattage output, and is approved by PGE 
interconnection?

 

TIA

 

Bill








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[RE-wrenches] Metering

[frenergy]

CA wrenches,

I'm trying to (for the sake of my monetarily impaired customers) figure 
out a less expensive way to meter/monitor small enphase systems.  One of my 
local utilities will allow me to just use a remanufactured utility-grade meter 
(ala AEE) These meters are inexpensive, robust and accurate but only display 
total production.  

The Envoy retails for over $5 bills.  Most of my customers are not 
interested in checking their PV system on the internet, well not after a couple 
weeks.  I can't seem to find any requirement from PGE other than in Section 
5.1 of the guidebook:  All systems receiving an EPBB incentive must install a 
production meter accurate to +- 5% of actual system output   which is 
pretty vague.  plus the is no CSI incentive  anymore.

Anybody have a suggestion that is different from the remanu utility 
meter?and possibly gives current wattage output, and is approved by PGE 
interconnection?

TIA

Bill
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[toddcory]

i get mine through vision metering (used to be austin international).
 
refurbished, and programmed for seperate buy  sell registers they are around 
$75.00 each.
 
[https://visionmetering.3dcartstores.com/Vision-Meter-Form-12S-120V-Class-200_p_211.html]
 
https://visionmetering.3dcartstores.com/Vision-Meter-Form-12S-120V-Class-200_p_211.html
 
todd
 
 
 
 
On Monday, August 20, 2012 6:39pm, James Jarvis j...@aprsworld.com said:



Hi Todd,

 Where does one actually buy KV2C meters? We have been looking for   the 
KV2C meters to use with the Modbus option, and nobody seems to   be able to 
supply them.

 Thanks,

 -James Jarvis
 APRS World, LLC

 On 8/20/2012 8:37 PM, [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com] 
toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:
you will need two kv2c 'green   tag' meters... one for each 120 volt 
leg.
 
todd
 
 
 
On Monday, August 20, 2012   9:15am, Hilton Dier III 
[mailto:hiltond...@gmail.com] hiltond...@gmail.com said:


Hello Wrenches,

 Here's a metering conundrum for you.

 I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel 
and a PV array. He has been off-grid for years, but he is now going 
on-grid. He is getting the Outbacks rebuilt at the factory to be 
grid tie compatible.

 As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the 
output of the inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house 
on the inverters, not just a vital loads panel. He wants to keep it 
that way. That gives him two separate outputs, AC Out to the main 
breaker panel and AC In(teractive) to the grid connection. If he 
just puts a meter on the AC In line, he will lose track of the 
inverter output that goes to power the house, and he'll get his 
output reduced by any grid-based charging he does.

 There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this, 
but it is designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the 
stacked Outbacks are putting out 240VAC on two legs.

 Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get 
around this?

 Many thanks,

 Hilton

-- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design 
Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 
05602


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[RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[Hilton Dier III]

Hello Wrenches,

Here's a metering conundrum for you.

I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel and a PV 
array. He has been off-grid for years, but he is now going on-grid. He 
is getting the Outbacks rebuilt at the factory to be grid tie compatible.


As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the output 
of the inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house on the 
inverters, not just a vital loads panel. He wants to keep it that way. 
That gives him two separate outputs, AC Out to the main breaker panel 
and AC In(teractive) to the grid connection. If he just puts a meter 
on the AC In line, he will lose track of the inverter output that goes 
to power the house, and he'll get his output reduced by any grid-based 
charging he does.


There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this, but it 
is designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the stacked Outbacks 
are putting out 240VAC on two legs.


Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get around this?

Many thanks,

Hilton

--
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[David Katz]

Hilton,
I am metering an Outback Radian in this situation.  I am using an Elkor meter 
with a pair of current transformers, but you can use and meter with CTs.  Just 
feed the two AC lines from the main panel through the CTs to the AC in of the 
inverters, then run the wires coming from the inverters output, going to the 
sub-panel back through the same CTs, keeping the L1 and L2 in phase.  This way 
the utility power cancels and you only read the inverters output.  You get the 
sum of what goes to the grid and what is used kb the subpanel.  It also 
subtracts what is used to float the batteries.
I read my Elkor meter with a SolarLog monitor.
David Katz

Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!


- Reply message -
From: Hilton Dier III hiltond...@gmail.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 9:15 am



Hello Wrenches,

Here's a metering conundrum for you.

I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel and a PV array. 
He has been off-grid for years, but he is now going on-grid. He is getting the 
Outbacks rebuilt at the factory to be grid tie compatible.

As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the output of the 
inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house on the inverters, not just 
a vital loads panel. He wants to keep it that way. That gives him two separate 
outputs, AC Out to the main breaker panel and AC In(teractive) to the grid 
connection. If he just puts a meter on the AC In line, he will lose track of 
the inverter output that goes to power the house, and he'll get his output 
reduced by any grid-based charging he does.

There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this, but it is 
designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the stacked Outbacks are putting 
out 240VAC on two legs.

Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get around this?

Many thanks,

Hilton

--
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[Dave Palumbo]

Dave,

 

Sounds like a great solution. We have an OB Radian net-metered PV with
battery back-up coming up this fall.  Where do we source an Elkor meter?

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

www.independentpowerllc.com 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

 

Hilton,
I am metering an Outback Radian in this situation.  I am using an Elkor
meter with a pair of current transformers, but you can use and meter with
CTs.  Just feed the two AC lines from the main panel through the CTs to the
AC in of the inverters, then run the wires coming from the inverters output,
going to the sub-panel back through the same CTs, keeping the L1 and L2 in
phase.  This way the utility power cancels and you only read the inverters
output.  You get the sum of what goes to the grid and what is used kb the
subpanel.  It also subtracts what is used to float the batteries.
I read my Elkor meter with a SolarLog monitor.
David Katz

Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!



- Reply message -
From: Hilton Dier III hiltond...@gmail.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 9:15 am

 

Hello Wrenches,

Here's a metering conundrum for you.

I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel and a PV
array. He has been off-grid for years, but he is now going on-grid. He is
getting the Outbacks rebuilt at the factory to be grid tie compatible.

As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the output of
the inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house on the inverters,
not just a vital loads panel. He wants to keep it that way. That gives him
two separate outputs, AC Out to the main breaker panel and AC
In(teractive) to the grid connection. If he just puts a meter on the AC In
line, he will lose track of the inverter output that goes to power the
house, and he'll get his output reduced by any grid-based charging he does.

There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this, but it is
designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the stacked Outbacks are
putting out 240VAC on two legs.

Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get around this?

Many thanks,

Hilton



-- 
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[David Katz]

I get them from SolarLog in Connecticut.
David

Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!


- Reply message -
From: Dave Palumbo d...@independentpowerllc.com
To: apos;RE-wrenchesapos; re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 1:06 pm



Dave,

Sounds like a great solution. We have an OB Radian net-metered PV with battery 
back-up coming up this fall.  Where do we source an “Elkor” meter?

Thanks,
Dave

David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
www.independentpowerllc.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Vermont Solar Partner
24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

Hilton,
I am metering an Outback Radian in this situation.  I am using an Elkor meter 
with a pair of current transformers, but you can use and meter with CTs.  Just 
feed the two AC lines from the main panel through the CTs to the AC in of the 
inverters, then run the wires coming from the inverters output, going to the 
sub-panel back through the same CTs, keeping the L1 and L2 in phase.  This way 
the utility power cancels and you only read the inverters output.  You get the 
sum of what goes to the grid and what is used kb the subpanel.  It also 
subtracts what is used to float the batteries.
I read my Elkor meter with a SolarLog monitor.
David Katz

Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

- Reply message -
From: Hilton Dier III hiltond...@gmail.commailto:hiltond...@gmail.com
To: 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 9:15 am

Hello Wrenches,

Here's a metering conundrum for you.

I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel and a PV array. 
He has been off-grid for years, but he is now going on-grid. He is getting the 
Outbacks rebuilt at the factory to be grid tie compatible.

As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the output of the 
inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house on the inverters, not just 
a vital loads panel. He wants to keep it that way. That gives him two separate 
outputs, AC Out to the main breaker panel and AC In(teractive) to the grid 
connection. If he just puts a meter on the AC In line, he will lose track of 
the inverter output that goes to power the house, and he'll get his output 
reduced by any grid-based charging he does.

There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this, but it is 
designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the stacked Outbacks are putting 
out 240VAC on two legs.

Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get around this?

Many thanks,

Hilton


--

Hilton Dier III

Renewable Energy Design

Partner, Solar Gain LLC

453 East Hill Rd.

Middlesex, VT 05602
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[Chris Mason]

An eGuage is a REALLY good way to do this so I would not dismiss it.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Hilton Dier III hiltond...@gmail.comwrote:

  Hello Wrenches,

 Here's a metering conundrum for you.

 I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel and a PV
 array. He has been off-grid for years, but he is now going on-grid. He is
 getting the Outbacks rebuilt at the factory to be grid tie compatible.

 As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the output of
 the inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house on the inverters,
 not just a vital loads panel. He wants to keep it that way. That gives him
 two separate outputs, AC Out to the main breaker panel and AC
 In(teractive) to the grid connection. If he just puts a meter on the AC In
 line, he will lose track of the inverter output that goes to power the
 house, and he'll get his output reduced by any grid-based charging he does.

 There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this, but it is
 designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the stacked Outbacks are
 putting out 240VAC on two legs.

 Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get around
 this?

 Many thanks,

 Hilton

 --
 Hilton Dier III
 Renewable Energy Design
 Partner, Solar Gain LLC
 453 East Hill Rd.
 Middlesex, VT 05602


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-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[Glenn Burt]

http://www.elkor.net/

 

I have purchased the kWh meter and remote display direct from Elkor in the
past.

 

-Glenn

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 4:07 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

 

Dave,

 

Sounds like a great solution. We have an OB Radian net-metered PV with
battery back-up coming up this fall.  Where do we source an Elkor meter?

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

www.independentpowerllc.com 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:48 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

 

Hilton,
I am metering an Outback Radian in this situation.  I am using an Elkor
meter with a pair of current transformers, but you can use and meter with
CTs.  Just feed the two AC lines from the main panel through the CTs to the
AC in of the inverters, then run the wires coming from the inverters output,
going to the sub-panel back through the same CTs, keeping the L1 and L2 in
phase.  This way the utility power cancels and you only read the inverters
output.  You get the sum of what goes to the grid and what is used kb the
subpanel.  It also subtracts what is used to float the batteries.
I read my Elkor meter with a SolarLog monitor.
David Katz

Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!

- Reply message -
From: Hilton Dier III hiltond...@gmail.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system
Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 9:15 am

 

Hello Wrenches,

Here's a metering conundrum for you.

I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel and a PV
array. He has been off-grid for years, but he is now going on-grid. He is
getting the Outbacks rebuilt at the factory to be grid tie compatible.

As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the output of
the inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house on the inverters,
not just a vital loads panel. He wants to keep it that way. That gives him
two separate outputs, AC Out to the main breaker panel and AC
In(teractive) to the grid connection. If he just puts a meter on the AC In
line, he will lose track of the inverter output that goes to power the
house, and he'll get his output reduced by any grid-based charging he does.

There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this, but it is
designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the stacked Outbacks are
putting out 240VAC on two legs.

Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get around this?

Many thanks,

Hilton

-- 
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metering a whole house Outback system

[toddcory]

you will need two kv2c 'green tag' meters... one for each 120 volt leg.
 
todd
 
 
 
On Monday, August 20, 2012 9:15am, Hilton Dier III hiltond...@gmail.com 
said:


Hello Wrenches,

 Here's a metering conundrum for you.

 I have a client with a dual stacked Outback 3648 inverter panel   and a PV 
array. He has been off-grid for years, but he is now   going on-grid. He is 
getting the Outbacks rebuilt at the factory   to be grid tie compatible.

 As per our local requirements, he needs a meter to read just the   output 
of the inverter. The problem is that he has the whole house   on the 
inverters, not just a vital loads panel. He wants to keep   it that way. 
That gives him two separate outputs, AC Out to the   main breaker panel 
and AC In(teractive) to the grid connection.   If he just puts a meter on 
the AC In line, he will lose track of   the inverter output that goes to 
power the house, and he'll get   his output reduced by any grid-based 
charging he does.

 There is a green tag method of wiring the meter to avoid this,   but it 
is designed for two single-leg 120VAC outputs and the   stacked Outbacks 
are putting out 240VAC on two legs.

 Aside from dropping $600 on an e-Gauge, is there any way to get   around 
this?

 Many thanks,

 Hilton

-- Hilton Dier IIIRenewable Energy DesignPartner, Solar Gain LLC453 East Hill 
Rd.Middlesex, VT 05602


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Re: [RE-wrenches] metering an outback system

[Alex Cozine]

Yes, you are correct.  The Solar pro diagram and article is great for
understanding each mode the meter can be in.



On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Drake Chamberlin 
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

  Hi Alex,

 The one meter hook up always seems confusing to me.  I'm still confused.
 Do we have the AC IN at both the bottom left and top right?   To me it seems
 that the AC OUT from the inverter would go to the upper left and the
 protected loads panel would be fed from the bottom left.

 I've never used this method, but would like to use it instead of the two
 meter method.

 Thanks,

 Drake


 At 12:19 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote:

 When metering for production here in Washington State, we use both sides in
 a 12s 120volt meterbase with fifth jaw. * top right inverter ac in*,
 bottom right ac from grid.  top left from battery back up, *bottom left
 from inverter ac in*, fifth jaw neutral.

 this set up allows grid tied selling and battery saved energy selling to be
 metered while subtracting energy used to charge batteries and subtracting
 any power needed to run the inverter.

 hope this helps.

 contact me off list if you need the diagram (in office)



 --
 Alex Cozine
 NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
 Brothers Electric  Solar
 brotherselectricsolar.com
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  Drake Chamberlin
 Athens Electric
 OH License 44810
 CO License 3773
 NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
 Office - 740-448-7328
 Mobile - 740-856-9648

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-- 
Alex Cozine
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Brothers Electric  Solar
brotherselectricsolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] metering an outback system

[Drake Chamberlin]

Hi Alex,

The one meter hook up always seems confusing to me.  I'm still 
confused.  Do we have the AC IN at both the bottom left and top 
right?   To me it seems that the AC OUT from the inverter would go to 
the upper left and the protected loads panel would be fed from the 
bottom left.


I've never used this method, but would like to use it instead of the 
two meter method.


Thanks,

Drake


At 12:19 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote:
When metering for production here in Washington State, we use both 
sides in a 12s 120volt meterbase with fifth jaw.  top right inverter 
ac in, bottom right ac from grid.  top left from battery back up, 
bottom left from inverter ac in, fifth jaw neutral.


this set up allows grid tied selling and battery saved energy 
selling to be metered while subtracting energy used to charge 
batteries and subtracting any power needed to run the inverter.


hope this helps.

contact me off list if you need the diagram (in office)



--
Alex Cozine
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Brothers Electric  Solar
http://brotherselectricsolar.combrotherselectricsolar.com
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Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
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Re: [RE-wrenches] metering an outback system

[David Brearley]

Drake,

Chris Freitas wrote an article on this topic in SP1.1, ³Form 12S Metering
for Grid-Tied Systems w/ Battery Backup.² Here¹s a link to the article and a
wiring diagram:


http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg16_QandA_3search=

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine 

On 8/10/10 7:57 AM, Drake Chamberlin
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

 Hi Alex,
 
 The one meter hook up always seems confusing to me.  I'm still confused.  Do
 we have the AC IN at both the bottom left and top right?   To me it seems that
 the AC OUT from the inverter would go to the upper left and the protected
 loads panel would be fed from the bottom left.
 
 I've never used this method, but would like to use it instead of the two meter
 method.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Drake 
 
 
 At 12:19 AM 8/10/2010, you wrote:
 When metering for production here in Washington State, we use both sides in a
 12s 120volt meterbase with fifth jaw.  top right inverter ac in, bottom right
 ac from grid.  top left from battery back up, bottom left from inverter ac
 in, fifth jaw neutral.
 
 this set up allows grid tied selling and battery saved energy selling to be
 metered while subtracting energy used to charge batteries and subtracting any
 power needed to run the inverter.
 
 hope this helps.
 
 contact me off list if you need the diagram (in office)
 
 


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[RE-wrenches] metering an outback system

[Gary Easton]

Hello,
I am having trouble metering  a system with an Outback 3648 serving a
protected loads panel. I need a way to accurately measure the production.
I have a dual stator 12s meter installed with the AC in coming in the
bottom and out the top and the AC from the inverter going in the top and
out the bottom with a neutral from the E-panel connected to the fifth leg.
The meter is not reading anything close to the Outback. Any ideas would be
greatly appreciated.
Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power Systems
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal
740-277-8498

 Kelly,

 When I came across language like this in an RFP, my assumption was that we
 needed to work with a specialty lightning protection subcontractor, a firm
 listed by UL. I would call them up, give them a project description and
 request a quote, which I would build into our cost estimate for the
 project.
 Included in their scope of work is providing a ³UL Listed Lightning
 Protection Certificate.² You can include that scope of work as a line item
 in our proposal. If the proposal requires that you include resumes for key
 team members, you might also include the lightning company¹s bio as it
 shows
 you¹ve done your due diligence.

 On the projects that I managed in this fashion, the lightning protection
 company always came in after our construction was substantially complete.
 There may be cases where you want to coordinate the that scope of work
 differently and get them on site earlier. They should be able to tell you
 what will work best, based on the general project description and your
 specific equipment grounding scheme.

 David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
 SolarPro magazine
 NABCEP Certified PV Installer 
 david.brear...@solarprofessional.com


 On 7/31/10 3:28 PM, Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun  Wind
 ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote:

 Hi All,
 I'm  working on the design for a PV  Wind power system for a military
 installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows:

 Provide a complete lightning protection system with  a UL Lightning
 Protection Inspection Certificate.
 including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices,
 conductors, ground terminals,
 interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other
 connectors
 and fittings required for
 a complete and usable system. 

 Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that
 has the
 UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate?

 Thanks,
 -Kelly


 Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
 Whidbey Sun  Wind
 Renewable Energy Systems
 NABCEP Certified PV Installer
 ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
 360.678.7131







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Re: [RE-wrenches] metering an outback system

[Kent Osterberg]

Gary,

If this is a new digital meter, it may be accumulating all energy
without regard to direction. That is the way the utilities purchase
them, to prevent energy theft, so that is the default configuration
from the meter manufacturers. When purchasing a digital kWh meter to
use for metering production per Outback's instructions, you must
specify that the meter is for net metering. Outback should warn about
that in their instructions!

It is pretty easy to wire the Outback metering scheme incorrectly. To
test for that: 
1. Disable the solar and battery charger, then confirm that the meter
disk does not spin when there is a load is turned on the protected
loads panel.
2. Disable the loads and solar, then force a bulk charge and confirm
that the meter spins backwards.

Even the digital meters show you what way power is flowing with a
simulated disk: dots progressing to the right is forward, left is
backwards.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


Gary Easton wrote:

  Hello,
I am having trouble metering  a system with an Outback 3648 serving a
protected loads panel. I need a way to accurately measure the production.
I have a dual stator 12s meter installed with the "AC in" coming in the
bottom and out the top and the AC from the inverter going in the top and
out the bottom with a neutral from the E-panel connected to the fifth leg.
The meter is not reading anything close to the Outback. Any ideas would be
greatly appreciated.
Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power Systems
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal
740-277-8498

  
  
Kelly,

When I came across language like this in an RFP, my assumption was that we
needed to work with a specialty lightning protection subcontractor, a firm
listed by UL. I would call them up, give them a project description and
request a quote, which I would build into our cost estimate for the
project.
Included in their scope of work is providing a UL Listed Lightning
Protection Certificate. You can include that scope of work as a line item
in our proposal. If the proposal requires that you include resumes for key
team members, you might also include the lightning companys bio as it
shows
youve done your due diligence.

On the projects that I managed in this fashion, the lightning protection
company always came in after our construction was substantially complete.
There may be cases where you want to coordinate the that scope of work
differently and get them on site earlier. They should be able to tell you
what will work best, based on the general project description and your
specific equipment grounding scheme.

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installer 
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com


On 7/31/10 3:28 PM, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun  Wind"
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com wrote:



  Hi All,
I'm  working on the design for a PV  Wind power system for a military
installation. The specs call for Lightning Protection as follows:

  
  
"Provide a complete lightning protection system with  a UL Lightning
Protection Inspection Certificate.
including, but not necessarily limited to, strike termination devices,
conductors, ground terminals,
interconnecting conductors, surge suppression devices, and other
connectors
and fittings required for
a complete and usable system. "


  
  Anyone have an idea of what qualifies? Is there a package product that
has the
"UL Lightning Protection Inspection Certificate"?

Thanks,
-Kelly


Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Whidbey Sun  Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
ke...@whidbeysunwind.com
360.678.7131


  





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Re: [RE-wrenches] metering an outback system

[Alex Cozine]

When metering for production here in Washington State, we use both sides in
a 12s 120volt meterbase with fifth jaw.  top right inverter ac in, bottom
right ac from grid.  top left from battery back up, bottom left from
inverter ac in, fifth jaw neutral.

this set up allows grid tied selling and battery saved energy selling to be
metered while subtracting energy used to charge batteries and subtracting
any power needed to run the inverter.

hope this helps.

contact me off list if you need the diagram (in office)



-- 
Alex Cozine
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Brothers Electric  Solar
brotherselectricsolar.com
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