Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

[Kirk Herander]

Hey Dave,
Well my building inspector is just being a dick about the "need" for a fence 
surrounding the side of a wall-mount PV awning. He has mis-classified it as a 
ground-mount per NFPA 1 rules, which requires 10' clearance for ground mounts, 
and doesn't care about wires being accessible or not. This is Burlington VT 
after all.
On 7/20/2020 2:45:04 PM, palumbo1...@gmail.com  wrote:
Much like Sam’s but accomplished with plastic composite lattice. This pic is 
from 2011. The zip ties are stainless steel core.
We operated only in Vermont where only 3 systems were inspected out of over 500 
installs, this wire screening was not required. But I felt that we should be 
doing work up to a reasonable national safety standard, and 2 of us were NABCEP 
certified.
 
David Palumbo
462 Solar Way
Hyde Park, VT 05655
 
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Sam 
Haraldson
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 1:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array
 
Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the "dangerous" parts 
of the solar and not the module frame.  As such we employed plastic "deer 
fence" Tek screwed to some racking components in one array where the client 
wished for more tamper-resistance at the point where the conductors were close 
to the ground. 
 
Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables for their 
ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of opaque coroplast.  
It rests along the backside of the modules to keep people's hands from touching 
conductors and looks a little cleaner than a piece of mesh.

Sam Haraldson [mailto:s...@onsiteenergyinc.com]
Installation & Service Manager
[Image removed by sender.] [http://www.onsiteenergyinc.com/]
[Image removed by sender.] [https://www.facebook.com/onsiteenergysolar/]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

[Ray]

If its attached to the building then its subject to 690.12.  Is he also 
making you comply with rapid shutdown?


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/20/20 2:01 PM, Kirk Herander wrote:

Hey Dave,
Well my building inspector is just being a dick about the "need" for a 
fence surrounding the side of a wall-mount PV awning. He has 
mis-classified it as a ground-mount per NFPA 1 rules, which requires 
10' clearance for ground mounts, and doesn't care about wires being 
accessible or not. This is Burlington VT after all.


On 7/20/2020 2:45:04 PM, palumbo1...@gmail.com 
 wrote:


Much like Sam’s but accomplished with plastic composite lattice. This 
pic is from 2011. The zip ties are stainless steel core.


We operated only in Vermont where only 3 systems were inspected out 
of over 500 installs, this wire screening was not required. But I 
felt that we should be doing work up to a reasonable national safety 
standard, and 2 of us were NABCEP certified.


David Palumbo

462 Solar Way

Hyde Park, VT 05655

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *Sam Haraldson

*Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:16 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the 
"dangerous" parts of the solar and not the module frame.  As such we 
employed plastic "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components 
in one array where the client wished for more tamper-resistance at 
the point where the conductors were close to the ground.


Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables 
for their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece 
of opaque coroplast.  It rests along the backside of the modules to 
keep people's hands from touching conductors and looks a little 
cleaner than a piece of mesh.






*Sam Haraldson <mailto:s...@onsiteenergyinc.com>*



Installation & Service Manager








Image removed by sender. <http://www.onsiteenergyinc.com/>















Image removed by sender. <https://www.facebook.com/onsiteenergysolar/>




Image removed by sender. <https://www.instagram.com/onsiteenergyinc/>




Image removed by sender. <https://twitter.com/onsiteenergyinc>




Image removed by sender. 
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/onsite-energy-inc/>








Image removed by sender. <https://onsiteenergyinc.com/bcorp>



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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

[Sindelar Solar]

I used Solarscrim to protect the underside module wiring of the array on 
one job. Good product and support and reasonably priced.


Allan

On 7/20/2020 11:16 AM, Sam Haraldson wrote:
Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the 
"dangerous" parts of the solar and not the module frame.  As such we 
employed plastic "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components 
in one array where the client wished for more tamper-resistance at the 
point where the conductors were close to the ground.


Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables 
for their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of 
opaque coroplast.  It rests along the backside of the modules to keep 
people's hands from touching conductors and looks a little cleaner 
than a piece of mesh.


























--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Much like the coroplast we have used corrugated sheets that we have cut to
"pop in'' to each panel, not done for aesthetics but rather to protect the
back sheet from animals but we did see a temperature increase as a result.
Jerry
NABCEP Solar Inspector

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 10:16 AM Sam Haraldson 
wrote:

> Much like Ray we have interpreted this protection to mean the "dangerous"
> parts of the solar and not the module frame.  As such we employed plastic
> "deer fence" Tek screwed to some racking components in one array where the
> client wished for more tamper-resistance at the point where the conductors
> were close to the ground.
>
> Another solution similar to this is employed by All Earth Renewables for
> their ground mount arrays that employs a tasteful looking piece of opaque
> coroplast.  It rests along the backside of the modules to keep people's
> hands from touching conductors and looks a little cleaner than a piece of
> mesh.
>
> Sam Haraldson 
> Installation & Service Manager
> 
>
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

[Ray]

I've always interpreted this rule to mean to the wiring, not to the 
bottom edge of the array.  110.27  refers to live parts; that's actual 
uninsulated  bare conductors, lugs, or switch contacts, etc.  Further, 
690.31(A) just says "circuit conductors shall be guarded"  Finally, 
if the conductors are within 8 ft of the ground, then usually you can 
just put a plastic shield, or expanded aluminum lathe on the bottom of 
the rails to protect the conductors.


Wire Shielding ground Mount

I pinched this pic from Miller Solar, one of our long time wrenches here.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/18/20 3:57 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I would give a small amount of additional time to convince the 
inspector. After that I would build the fence he wants. I would also 
build it to be easily dismantled/removed. Good Luck!


  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 10:05:49 -0400, Kirk Herander  
wrote:



Thanks all. The NEC reference 110.27 is helpful.
I am in a battle now with my AHJ building inspector which relates 
indirectly to the 8' rule question. I have mounted several modules 
awning-style above a window at an angle of 30 degrees. The bottom of 
the array is 7' from grade. The inspector insists that this is a 
ground-mount array, even though it is mounted on the wall of a 
habitable building. He cites NFPA 1, 2012 fire safety rules which are 
adopted in my locale. In his brain, I must add a fence to insure no 
one can touch the array within 10' per NFPA access guidelines for 
ground-mounts.
The NFPA does not cover wall-mounts specifically, if at all. It only 
defines arrays on buildings (roof) and "real" ground mounts, i.e. 
mounted on a detached structure.
The exposed PV wire enters a J-box roughly 10' above grade(behind the 
array), more than complying with guidance in NEC 110.27. I am using 
this rule as backup to my position that NFPA fire safety rules for 
ground mounts do not apply, and the wire runs are protected 
accordingly per the NEC. IMO the intent of the NFPA 10' ground-mount 
rule is to protect the array and specifically wiring from damage, 
which compliance with NEC 110.27 already does.


On 7/18/2020 4:01:34 AM, Martin Herzfeld 
wrote:

Simply, the '2.5 m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article
110.27(A)(4).  It's interesting now that the distance in the 2019
CEC/2017 NEC has  increased based on voltage.  In other words, if
the voltage is greater than 301 volts the minimum would be 8 ft 6
in. :)

All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC)
Certified Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation
Professional #IREC 10037
Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46,
C10, D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance,
Instrumentation

Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+)
#T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical
Inspectors  #7035507 - Since 2006
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified
Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training
Provider

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:32 PM August Goers mailto:aug...@luminalt.com>> wrote:

Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local
code amendment:



300.4(I) Add the following section:
 (I)   Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems
installed less than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface
or finished floor are considered subject to physical damage.
As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific
definition specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader
NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ.
August
Luminalt


On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander
mailto:vtso...@icloud.com>> wrote:

All,
Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that
someone could point me to in the NEC? Thanks.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I would give a small amount of additional time to convince the
inspector. After that I would build the fence he wants. I would also build
it to be easily dismantled/removed. Good Luck!  

Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020
10:05:49 -0400, Kirk Herander  wrote:  Thanks all. The NEC reference 110.27
is helpful.   I am in a battle now with my AHJ building inspector which
relates indirectly to the 8' rule question. I have mounted several modules
awning-style above a window at an angle of 30 degrees. The bottom of the
array is 7' from grade. The inspector insists that this is a ground-mount
array, even though it is mounted on the wall of a habitable building. He
cites NFPA 1, 2012 fire safety rules which are adopted in my locale. In his
brain, I must add a fence to insure no one can touch the array within 10'
per NFPA access guidelines for ground-mounts.   The NFPA does not cover
wall-mounts specifically, if at all. It only defines arrays on buildings
(roof) and "real" ground mounts, i.e. mounted on a detached structure.  The
exposed PV wire enters a J-box roughly 10' above grade(behind the array),
more than complying with guidance in NEC 110.27. I am using this rule as
backup to my position that NFPA fire safety rules for ground mounts do not
apply, and the wire runs are protected accordingly per the NEC. IMO the
intent of the NFPA 10' ground-mount rule is to protect the array and
specifically wiring from damage, which compliance with NEC 110.27 already
does.

On 7/18/2020 4:01:34 AM, Martin Herzfeld  wrote:   Simply, the '2.5
m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article 110.27(A)(4). It's interesting now
that the distance in the 2019 CEC/2017 NEC has increased based on voltage.
In other words, if the voltage is greater than 301 volts the minimum would
be 8 ft 6 in. :)

 All the best, 

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable
Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV)
Installation Professional #IREC 10037
Contract Training Provider
(CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor
License #00833782 C46, C10, D56, D31, C-7
Solar, Electrical, Trenching,
Pole Installation  border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hi
Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: [4]
 300.4(I) Add the following section:   (I) Subject to Physical Damage.
Premises wiring systems installed less than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking
surface or finished floor are considered subject to physical damage.   As
far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition specifying
8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up to the
AHJ.   August Luminalt   

  On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk
Herander  wrote:  All,   Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot
rule" that someone could point me to in the NEC? Thanks. 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8' w/awning array

[Kirk Herander]

Thanks all. The NEC reference 110.27 is helpful.

I am in a battle now with my AHJ building inspector which relates indirectly to 
the 8' rule question. I have mounted several modules awning-style above a 
window at an angle of 30 degrees. The bottom of the array is 7' from grade. The 
inspector insists that this is a ground-mount array, even though it is mounted 
on the wall of a habitable building. He cites NFPA 1, 2012 fire safety rules 
which are adopted in my locale. In his brain, I must add a fence to insure no 
one can touch the array within 10' per NFPA access guidelines for ground-mounts.

The NFPA does not cover wall-mounts specifically, if at all. It only defines 
arrays on buildings (roof) and "real" ground mounts, i.e. mounted on a detached 
structure. 
The exposed PV wire enters a J-box roughly 10' above grade(behind the array), 
more than complying with guidance in NEC 110.27. I am using this rule as backup 
to my position that NFPA fire safety rules for ground mounts do not apply, and 
the wire runs are protected accordingly per the NEC. IMO the intent of the NFPA 
10' ground-mount rule is to protect the array and specifically wiring from 
damage, which compliance with NEC 110.27 already does.

On 7/18/2020 4:01:34 AM, Martin Herzfeld  wrote:
Simply, the '2.5 m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article 110.27(A)(4).  It's 
interesting now that the distance in the 2019 CEC/2017 NEC has  increased based 
on voltage.  In other words, if the voltage is greater than 301 volts the 
minimum would be 8 ft 6 in. :)


All the best, 

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master 
Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037
Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56, 
D31, C-7
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation

Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections 
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG

* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors  
#7035507 - Since 2006
* Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy 
Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider   

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:32 PM August Goers mailto:aug...@luminalt.com]> wrote:

Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: 
[https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/san_francisco/latest/sf_building/0-0-0-84935]

300.4(I)  Add the following section:  

 (I)   Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less than 
2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are considered 
subject to physical damage.

As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition specifying 8' 
for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ.

August
Luminalt
 


On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander mailto:vtso...@icloud.com]> wrote:

All,
Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could point 
me to in the NEC? Thanks.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

[Glenn Burt]

The discussion about an 8 ft rule is in regards to accessibility, not physical 
damage. 

Two completely independent topics…

 

Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
August Goers
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 10:32 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

 

Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment: 
<https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/san_francisco/latest/sf_building/0-0-0-84935>
 

 

300.4(I)  Add the following section:  

 (I)   Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less than 
2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are considered 
subject to physical damage.

 

As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition specifying 8' 
for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up to the AHJ.

 

August

Luminalt

 

 

 

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander mailto:vtso...@icloud.com> > wrote:

All,

Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could point 
me to in the NEC? Thanks.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

[Martin Herzfeld]

Simply, the '2.5 m' (8 ft) has been inferred from Article 110.27(A)(4).
It's interesting now that the distance in the 2019 CEC/2017 NEC has
increased based on voltage.  In other words, if the voltage is greater than
301 volts the minimum would be 8 ft 6 in. :)

All the best,

Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified
Master Trainer ™ for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC
10037
Contract Training Provider (CTP)
Adjunct Professor, Energy

California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56,
D31, C-7
Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance,
Instrumentation

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Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
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* Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors
#7035507 - Since 2006
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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 7:32 PM August Goers  wrote:

> Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment:
> 
>
> 300.4(I)  Add the following section:
>  (I)   Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less
> than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are
> considered subject to physical damage.
>
> As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition
> specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up
> to the AHJ.
>
> August
> Luminalt
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
>> All,
>> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could
>> point me to in the NEC? Thanks.
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

[August Goers]

Hi Kirk - We work in San Francisco where they have a local code amendment:


300.4(I)  Add the following section:
 (I)   Subject to Physical Damage. Premises wiring systems installed less
than 2.44 m (8 feet) above a walking surface or finished floor are
considered subject to physical damage.

As far as I'm aware otherwise, there is not a specific definition
specifying 8' for physical damage in the broader NEC - I think it's just up
to the AHJ.

August
Luminalt




On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 8:38 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> All,
> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could
> point me to in the NEC? Thanks.
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

[Darryl Thayer]

Yes but see Article100.1 for the definition of accessible and readily
accessible, to access you need a ladder.  implies I think where the 8-foot
idea come from
I think this is poor writing, but it is accepted to be beyond reach

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:02 AM AE Solar 
wrote:

> Kirk,
> Not sure if this helps but
> 690.31(A)  “where PV source and output circuits operating at max system
> voltages greater than 30v are installed in readily accessible locations,
> circuit conductors shall be guarded or installed in a raceway”
>
> It doesn’t mention 8’ but mentions “readily accessible”. We have AHJs that
> interpret that as 8’ unless a 6’ fence is installed around the array. I
> don’t have a reference for those measurements though...just feedback we
> have gotten from inspectors
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:38 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
>> All,
>> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could
>> point me to in the NEC? Thanks.
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
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>>
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>> --
> Adam Katzman
> Autonomous Energies
> PO Box 1245
> Kingston, NY 12402
> www.autonomousenergies.com
> (518) 567-1468
>
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[RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

[Kirk Herander]

All,
Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could point 
me to in the NEC? Thanks.___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] protecting wire below 8'

[AE Solar]

Kirk,
Not sure if this helps but
690.31(A)  “where PV source and output circuits operating at max system
voltages greater than 30v are installed in readily accessible locations,
circuit conductors shall be guarded or installed in a raceway”

It doesn’t mention 8’ but mentions “readily accessible”. We have AHJs that
interpret that as 8’ unless a 6’ fence is installed around the array. I
don’t have a reference for those measurements though...just feedback we
have gotten from inspectors

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:38 AM Kirk Herander  wrote:

> All,
> Is there a reference to this so-called "8-foot rule" that someone could
> point me to in the NEC? Thanks.
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> --
Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245
Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com
(518) 567-1468
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