Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
forwarded message: From: Ray Walters r...@solarray.com Date: September 16, 2011 1:03:43 PM PDT To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Larry, I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware. Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet: 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles. HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 ratio. Ray Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hi James; I'd like to see the presentation again (I WAS there in 04) Also, I think it would be very helpful for a competent manufacturer (like yourselves) to comment on how the cycle testing is done, whether you use a 100 hr, or 20 hr discharge rate, etc. and also whether battery testing is standardized, or do other manufacturers test using different criteria. Finally have these numbers changed in the past several years, because AEE has the wrong cycle life for your 4000 series battery listed in their catalog, as did I :) (1000 vs 1280 @ 50% DOD) Really appreciate your contribution to our knowledge base, Ray Walters On 9/20/2011 2:58 AM, James Surrette wrote: Sorry, 2nd attempt. Could not attach the presentation but have if anyone is interested ... Morning Wrenches, Regarding cycle life data, I thought some of you might find the attached interesting as it comes from a Dankoff Dealer Training in 04. Allan, I know you were there but sure some others were as well. As a supplier, those events were very enjoyable - probably not the same for the folks in the audience! If you scroll to the bottom of the RE Product Line section of our website, both cycle graphs are there for the flooded product from 20% - 100% DOD. /_http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/specifications-renewable_/ The AGM data is in the FAQ section, will try and get this under the specs as well. /_http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81phpMyAdmin=0610e516bf803196b5feee0b1ad65c08phpMyAdmin=3jSJ-jdC5E7b53DHgV8TGvpSCF6_ http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81phpMyAdmin=0610e516bf803196b5feee0b1ad65c08phpMyAdmin=3jSJ-jdC5E7b53DHgV8TGvpSCF6/ Hope this helps, Jamie ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hi everyone, we talk of cycle life, but from my experiance you can discharge a battery rather fast, (maybe 1 hr) you wont get full energy from the battery before the battery lalls to low voltage, it seems to be able to do this several times no problem.. But if you recharge at a fast rate, put a 60 amp-hr car battery on a 100 amp charger and charge till it cooks, that battery will fail in a few cycles. It seems that cycles has to be qualified by both depth of Discharge and number of cycles and Recharge rate. Darryl From: James Surrette ja...@surrette.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:58 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Sorry, 2nd attempt. Could not attach the presentation but have if anyone is interested ... Morning Wrenches, Regarding cycle life data, I thought some of you might find the attached interesting as it comes from a Dankoff Dealer Training in 04. Allan, I know you were there but sure some others were as well. As a supplier, those events were very enjoyable - probably not the same for the folks in the audience! If you scroll to the bottom of the RE Product Line section of our website, both cycle graphs are there for the flooded product from 20% - 100% DOD. http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/specifications-renewable The AGM data is in the FAQ section, will try and get this under the specs as well. http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81phpMyAdmin=0610e516bf803196b5feee0b1ad65c08phpMyAdmin=3jSJ-jdC5E7b53DHgV8TGvpSCF6 Hope this helps, Jamie Ray Walters r...@solarray.com 9/17/2011 5:38 PM Geez, I got that file on a model specific google search. It has a picture of a 4000 series flooded cell to the side, no other labeling, and it matched my cross check in the AEE catalog (1000 cycles at 50% DOD). I can't seem to get to that page within the website. The chart you sent is labeled series 4000, and is labeled 1280 cycles @50% DOD (very definitive, very different). Did both myself and AEE indeed use the wrong data?(I see the AGM tag) I have another s460 spec sheet claiming 1300 cycle 10 year life with no DOD mentioned. Its like shopping for tires or a mattress, you never know what to believe, other than real experience sometimes. I had a horrible time for instance finding cycle data for Deka, and I'm still not sure if what they sent is right (that Deka = Trojan) I had conflicting charts and numbers from Trojan too. Be nice to have an independent test facility and publish some trust worthy comparison data on a level playing field. I based my Rolls info on almost a decade of literature collected from them, not just that one chart. Awaiting clarification from Rolls, sorry if I used the wrong data Ray Walters On 9/16/2011 10:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Default Title Ray, You referenced the wrong chart. Yours was for AGMs. Try http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable. Allan Ron, At 48V, I could be tempted to pick the 16 golf carts. Disadvantages: More cells to water and smaller reservoirs. More interconnects, more floor space. Advantages: More capacity for less money. More tolerance for abuse. About the same real-world cycle life (just based on experience). Lighter gauge and thus less expensive interconnects. And two strings isn't too many. Like Ray, I'm not too enamored of L16s as a value-based choice, although we use a fair number. We typically see 4 1/2 - 7 years from L16s, and about the same from golf carts. Default Title Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 9/16/2011 8:37 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life: http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81php The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity begins being reduced. I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks like a typical L16, not over 500 cycles. Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on their website? Ray 7 PM, Ron Young wrote: Hi All, Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1 year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check - and this is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by a third party who is not always reliably taking care of business; half the number of connections; half the footprint ... The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries in this scenario has to do with the company
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hi Ron, The recommended maximum number of strings in parallel in a lead acid battery bank is 4. Each string consist of the number of units required to meet the battery bank voltage (12V, 24V or 48V). Higher than 4 strings in parallel is not recommended as the risk of unbalanced charge between the strings will possibly increase over time and endanger the life of the units. Fewer strings in parallel is often preferred for price $ per Ah, fewer interconnects, sometimes optimum foot print, with the exception of unit weight challenges in few cases. Various lifting tools exists or created by Wrenches fellows for proper positing heavy units John From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron Young Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Hi Larry, Client has asked me to compare the cycle life because he is upgrading a large battery bank and has been convinced by a Xantrex scientist that golf cart batteries are superior to L-16's even though it involves twice as many batteries, connections, cells, footprint etc. So to convince his purchasing committee he wants to know the difference in cycle life between a U.S.B 208 and a Surrette S-460. Ron On 2011-09-15, at 4:52 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Ron, For many years we have sold the US2200's and the Interstate version, the U2200 and I'd say they are nearly as good as the Trojan T-105. (buyer beware: Interstate switched to Johnson Control junk batteries and no longer sells the American made US Battery. http://starlightsolar.com/interstate.htm) I consider Rolls a superior long life battery compared to any other L16's. Curious here: why are you comparing an L-16 to a GC2? US Battery also makes a floor scrubber version, model US16HC XC. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 15, 2011, at 4:23 PM, RM You wrote: Hi Wrenches, trying to compare battery cycle life on L-16 Surrette/Rolls vs. U.S. Battery golf cart. Can't seem to find any clear info on the U.S. Battery 208 a/h golf cart. The chart that U.S. battery shows on their website only gives one cycle life graph for all of their batteries whereas Surrette/Rolls differentiates between the series 4000 and series 5000. Comments? Best Regards, Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.comhttp://Solareagle.com/ Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hey Ray I like your dolly! I could use something like that to move the big Surrette/Rolls batteries. Not nearly as big as a HUP but at 300+ lbs can be a little hefty. Ron On 2011-09-17, at 6:52 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Todd; I haven't tried the 2v L16s, because they were rated the same cycle life. (I could be wrong?) Are you really moving L16s by yourself? I've done it, but its soo bad for your back. I made several tools for moving the HUPs, one is a frame and block and tackle for pulling the separate cells out (weigh less than an L16) and I made a 4 wheeled dolly that can roll a HUP right off a trailer, through a 30 door, and into the room. I don't know of anyone that could move a HUP themselves (the smallest are 742 lb). My favorite is to use a bobcat or forklift, and just set them in place. Here's a pic of our carrier, hopefully its small enough to post: Ray On 9/17/2011 11:36 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: What about the 2 volt L-16 versions? Has anyone had success with them for larger banks? I work alone and HUPs are too heavy to lift on my own... however 24, L-16's in one series string would be a hell of a battery bank too. Todd HUP-Trailer.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
HI Ron; We just use a big wheeled 2 wheel dolly for moving the Rolls, and L16s, etc. We build little ramps etc for up and down stairs, take doors off hinges, whatever we have to do to make the move safer, and do less damage to the house. THe key is planning, prep, and then moving slowly and cooperatively as a team (like ants) I've moved HUPs right through $300/ sq ft living rooms, and we've never done any noticeable damage, and more importantly never had any of my crew hurt. Ray On 9/18/2011 12:09 AM, Ron Young wrote: Hey Ray I like your dolly! I could use something like that to move the big Surrette/Rolls batteries. Not nearly as big as a HUP but at 300+ lbs can be a little hefty. Ron On 2011-09-17, at 6:52 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Todd; I haven't tried the 2v L16s, because they were rated the same cycle life. (I could be wrong?) Are you really moving L16s by yourself? I've done it, but its soo bad for your back. I made several tools for moving the HUPs, one is a frame and block and tackle for pulling the separate cells out (weigh less than an L16) and I made a 4 wheeled dolly that can roll a HUP right off a trailer, through a 30 door, and into the room. I don't know of anyone that could move a HUP themselves (the smallest are 742 lb). My favorite is to use a bobcat or forklift, and just set them in place. Here's a pic of our carrier, hopefully its small enough to post: Ray ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
One word for moving HUPs or hawkers, etc: ENGINE HOIST! Jonathan Hill, senior system design engineerSierra Solar SystemsOn Sep 17, 2011, at 6:52 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Todd; I haven't tried the 2v L16s, because they were rated the same cycle life. (I could be wrong?) Are you really moving L16s by yourself? I've done it, but its soo bad for your back. I made several tools for moving the HUPs, one is a frame and block and tackle for pulling the separate cells out (weigh less than an L16) and I made a 4 wheeled dolly that can roll a HUP right off a trailer, through a 30" door, and into the room. I don't know of anyone that could move a HUP themselves (the smallest are 742 lb). My favorite is to use a bobcat or forklift, and just set them in place. Here's a pic of our carrier, hopefully its small enough to post: Ray On 9/17/2011 11:36 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: What about the 2 volt L-16 versions? Has anyone had success with them for larger banks? I work alone and HUPs are too heavy to lift on my own... however 24, L-16's in one series string would be a hell of a battery bank too.Todd HUP-Trailer.jpg___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
What about the 2 volt L-16 versions? Has anyone had success with them for larger banks? I work alone and HUPs are too heavy to lift on my own... however 24, L-16's in one series string would be a hell of a battery bank too. Todd On Friday, September 16, 2011 1:03pm, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com said: Larry, I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware. Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet: 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles. HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 ratio. Ray Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hey Todd, Yep. We use the Sun Xtender and Lifeline 2 volt L16 AGM's for 12 volt systems in RV's and small off grid. We also sell the Tall GC2 battery for lower capacity applications. So far, so good. I have not sold any flooded 2v L16's but we have sold Crown 6 volt L16's for years and I have not had a single failure yet. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 17, 2011, at 10:36 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: What about the 2 volt L-16 versions? Has anyone had success with them for larger banks? I work alone and HUPs are too heavy to lift on my own... however 24, L-16's in one series string would be a hell of a battery bank too. Todd On Friday, September 16, 2011 1:03pm, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com said: Larry, I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware. Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet: 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles. HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 ratio. Ray Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Geez, I got that file on a model specific google search. It has a picture of a 4000 series flooded cell to the side, no other labeling, and it matched my cross check in the AEE catalog (1000 cycles at 50% DOD). I can't seem to get to that page within the website. The chart you sent is labeled series 4000, and is labeled 1280 cycles @50% DOD (very definitive, very different). Did both myself and AEE indeed use the wrong data?(I see the AGM tag) I have another s460 spec sheet claiming 1300 cycle 10 year life with no DOD mentioned. Its like shopping for tires or a mattress, you never know what to believe, other than real experience sometimes. I had a horrible time for instance finding cycle data for Deka, and I'm still not sure if what they sent is right (that Deka = Trojan) I had conflicting charts and numbers from Trojan too. Be nice to have an independent test facility and publish some trust worthy comparison data on a level playing field. I based my Rolls info on almost a decade of literature collected from them, not just that one chart. Awaiting clarification from Rolls, sorry if I used the wrong data Ray Walters On 9/16/2011 10:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Ray, You referenced the wrong chart. Yours was for AGMs. Try http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable. Allan Ron, At 48V, I could be tempted to pick the 16 golf carts. Disadvantages: More cells to water and smaller reservoirs. More interconnects, more floor space. Advantages: More capacity for less money. More tolerance for abuse. About the same real-world cycle life (just based on experience). Lighter gauge and thus less expensive interconnects. And two strings isn't too many. Like Ray, I'm not too enamored of L16s as a value-based choice, although we use a fair number. We typically see 4 1/2 - 7 years from L16s, and about the same from golf carts. *Allan Sindelar* _Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician *Positive Energy, Inc.* 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 *505 424-1112* _www.positiveenergysolar.com_ http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ * * On 9/16/2011 8:37 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life: http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81php The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity begins being reduced. I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks like a typical L16, not over 500 cycles. Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on their website? Ray 7 PM, Ron Young wrote: Hi All, Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1 year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check - and this is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by a third party who is not always reliably taking care of business; half the number of connections; half the footprint ... The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries in this scenario has to do with the company who set the systems up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be the easy availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's. Xantrex want to sell arrive and drop systems that will be sold through mass retailers from what I can see. The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000 series batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit suspect. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com http://Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: *From: *Ray Walters r...@solarray.com mailto:r...@solarray.com *Date: *September 16, 2011 1:03:43 PM PDT *To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Larry, I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hi Ray, Currently blackberry only so can't send these files yet. Our AGM L16 has lower cycle life than the flooded. I believe the chart you pasted was for these models. I will forward flooded Series 4000 (L16), Series 5000 (CS, KS YS) and AGM graphs asap. Jamie James Surrette ja...@surrette.com T: 902-597-4027 M:902-669-1927 Surrette Battery Company Limited 1 Station Road, PO Box 2020, Springhill, NS, B0M 1X0 Canada * Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld.* -Original Message- From: Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com Sent: 9/17/2011 5:38:03 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Geez, I got that file on a model specific google search. It has a picture of a 4000 series flooded cell to the side, no other labeling, and it matched my cross check in the AEE catalog (1000 cycles at 50% DOD). I can't seem to get to that page within the website. The chart you sent is labeled series 4000, and is labeled 1280 cycles @50% DOD (very definitive, very different). Did both myself and AEE indeed use the wrong data?(I see the AGM tag) I have another s460 spec sheet claiming 1300 cycle 10 year life with no DOD mentioned. Its like shopping for tires or a mattress, you never know what to believe, other than real experience sometimes. I had a horrible time for instance finding cycle data for Deka, and I'm still not sure if what they sent is right (that Deka = Trojan) I had conflicting charts and numbers from Trojan too. Be nice to have an independent test facility and publish some trust worthy comparison data on a level playing field. I based my Rolls info on almost a decade of literature collected from them, not just that one chart. Awaiting clarification from Rolls, sorry if I used the wrong data Ray Walters On 9/16/2011 10:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Ray, You referenced the wrong chart. Yours was for AGMs. Try http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable. Allan Ron, At 48V, I could be tempted to pick the 16 golf carts. Disadvantages: More cells to water and smaller reservoirs. More interconnects, more floor space. Advantages: More capacity for less money. More tolerance for abuse. About the same real-world cycle life (just based on experience). Lighter gauge and thus less expensive interconnects. And two strings isn't too many. Like Ray, I'm not too enamored of L16s as a value-based choice, although we use a fair number. We typically see 4 1/2 - 7 years from L16s, and about the same from golf carts. *Allan Sindelar* _Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician *Positive Energy, Inc.* 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 *505 424-1112* _www.positiveenergysolar.com_ http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ * * On 9/16/2011 8:37 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life: http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81php The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity begins being reduced. I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks like a typical L16, not over 500 cycles. Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on their website? Ray 7 PM, Ron Young wrote: Hi All, Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1 year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check - and this is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by a third party who is not always reliably taking care of business; half the number of connections; half the footprint ... The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries in this scenario has to do with the company who set the systems up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be the easy availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's. Xantrex want to sell arrive and drop systems that will be sold through mass retailers from what I can see. The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000 series batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit suspect. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com http://Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: *From: *Ray Walters r...@solarray.com mailto:r...@solarray.com *Date: *September 16, 2011 1:03:43 PM PDT *To: *RE-wrenches re
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Ray, As a battery-only wrench I stock and sell many brands. Not sure where you saw Deka = Trojan but from years of first hand experience, Deka’s are not anywhere near Trojan in life cycles. Also, FWIW dealers, if you sell Deka, check the micro date code on the side of the case. I have received pallet loads of 8D and 4D AGM’s that were over 1 year old when delivered. Just for the fun of it, my opinion is that Johnson Control (JC) is the worst performer. Just have a look at your JC Sam's Club $68 GC2. A 1-3 year battery. About the same for the JC Interstate green top GC2. Larry From: Ray Walters Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 1:38 PM To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com ; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Geez, I got that file on a model specific google search. It has a picture of a 4000 series flooded cell to the side, no other labeling, and it matched my cross check in the AEE catalog (1000 cycles at 50% DOD). I can't seem to get to that page within the website. The chart you sent is labeled series 4000, and is labeled 1280 cycles @50% DOD (very definitive, very different). Did both myself and AEE indeed use the wrong data?(I see the AGM tag) I have another s460 spec sheet claiming 1300 cycle 10 year life with no DOD mentioned. Its like shopping for tires or a mattress, you never know what to believe, other than real experience sometimes. I had a horrible time for instance finding cycle data for Deka, and I'm still not sure if what they sent is right (that Deka = Trojan) I had conflicting charts and numbers from Trojan too. Be nice to have an independent test facility and publish some trust worthy comparison data on a level playing field. I based my Rolls info on almost a decade of literature collected from them, not just that one chart. Awaiting clarification from Rolls, sorry if I used the wrong data Ray Walters___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
I agree Larry, I don't have as much confidence in the Dekas, but a cycle life chart provided by my supplier shows them equal to the T105. IT took a mnth to get that chart to me, so who knows where it came from. I definitely have seen lower life from the Sam's club batteries, but again we need some good comparison data to make the case for spending more on the Trojans for instance. As they say in computing: garbage in, garbage out. So if I use bogus cycle numbers (as I apparently did in an earlier post) my life cost calculations are equally bad. I've been trying for over a decade to get this to a more exact science, obviously we've a ways to go. So far I trust my Trojan numbers ( more or less) Deka not so sure, HUPs and other big industrial cells seem to be on target, Rolls I'm still waiting on, but I think they're making an effort to get us the numbers. Do you have Johnson controls or interstate numbers? I had some Exide numbers ( I recall under 400 cycles for their GC) and those seemed to be right, because they definitely didn't last very long. I know one thing: My customers with HUPs have had zero complaints and I've been selling those for almost a decade. On problematic systems that we've upgraded, the HUPs cured the problems, and satisfied the customers. Will they last 2100 cycles? I'm not sure if I'll last that many cycles at this point. Ray On 9/17/2011 5:03 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote: Ray, As a battery-only wrench I stock and sell many brands. Not sure where you saw Deka = Trojan but from years of first hand experience, Deka's are not anywhere near Trojan in life cycles. Also, FWIW dealers, if you sell Deka, check the micro date code on the side of the case. I have received pallet loads of 8D and 4D AGM's that were over 1 year old when delivered. Just for the fun of it, my opinion is that Johnson Control (JC) is the worst performer. Just have a look at your JC Sam's Club $68 GC2. A 1-3 year battery. About the same for the JC Interstate green top GC2. Larry *From:* Ray Walters mailto:r...@solarray.com *Sent:* Saturday, September 17, 2011 1:38 PM *To:* al...@positiveenergysolar.com mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com ; RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Geez, I got that file on a model specific google search. It has a picture of a 4000 series flooded cell to the side, no other labeling, and it matched my cross check in the AEE catalog (1000 cycles at 50% DOD). I can't seem to get to that page within the website. The chart you sent is labeled series 4000, and is labeled 1280 cycles @50% DOD (very definitive, very different). Did both myself and AEE indeed use the wrong data?(I see the AGM tag) I have another s460 spec sheet claiming 1300 cycle 10 year life with no DOD mentioned. Its like shopping for tires or a mattress, you never know what to believe, other than real experience sometimes. I had a horrible time for instance finding cycle data for Deka, and I'm still not sure if what they sent is right (that Deka = Trojan) I had conflicting charts and numbers from Trojan too. Be nice to have an independent test facility and publish some trust worthy comparison data on a level playing field. I based my Rolls info on almost a decade of literature collected from them, not just that one chart. Awaiting clarification from Rolls, sorry if I used the wrong data Ray Walters ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hi Ron, Have a look back a few months ago to the discussion about multiple battery strings. My synopsis: large, parallel banks are not good; fewer strings are always better. How large a bank are we talking about here? Scientist?? That sounds kind of like “Yea, I been a ‘lectrician for XX years...”, something I have heard hundreds of times. It’s just pride saying “Look, I can pee that far too!” when in reality they are clueless about DC power systems. I’m ranting but my point is you should convince your customer that a hands-on, real world experienced professional has a much broader understanding of RE system intricacies than a “scientist”. Larry From: Ron Young Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Hi Larry, Client has asked me to compare the cycle life because he is upgrading a large battery bank and has been convinced by a Xantrex scientist that golf cart batteries are superior to L-16's even though it involves twice as many batteries, connections, cells, footprint etc. So to convince his purchasing committee he wants to know the difference in cycle life between a U.S.B 208 and a Surrette S-460. Ron ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters On 9/16/2011 10:15 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote: Hi Ron, Have a look back a few months ago to the discussion about multiple battery strings. My synopsis: large, parallel banks are not good; fewer strings are always better. How large a bank are we talking about here? Scientist?? That sounds kind of like Yea, I been a 'lectrician for XX years..., something I have heard hundreds of times. It's just pride saying Look, I can pee that far too! when in reality they are clueless about DC power systems. I'm ranting but my point is you should convince your customer that a hands-on, real world experienced professional has a much broader understanding of RE system intricacies than a scientist. Larry *From:* Ron Young mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com *Sent:* Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:11 PM *To:* RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Hi Larry, Client has asked me to compare the cycle life because he is upgrading a large battery bank and has been convinced by a Xantrex scientist that golf cart batteries are superior to L-16's even though it involves twice as many batteries, connections, cells, footprint etc. So to convince his purchasing committee he wants to know the difference in cycle life between a U.S.B 208 and a Surrette S-460. Ron ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Ray, If we were comparing the T-105 to the Trojan L-16 in a single string, I agree the T-105 will provide more life cycles. Been there, done that. But that was not the comparison. Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters On 9/16/2011 10:15 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote: Hi Ron, Have a look back a few months ago to the discussion about multiple battery strings. My synopsis: large, parallel banks are not good; fewer strings are always better. How large a bank are we talking about here? Scientist?? That sounds kind of like “Yea, I been a ‘lectrician for XX years...”, something I have heard hundreds of times. It’s just pride saying “Look, I can pee that far too!” when in reality they are clueless about DC power systems. I’m ranting but my point is you should convince your customer that a hands-on, real world experienced professional has a much broader understanding of RE system intricacies than a “scientist”. Larry From: Ron Young Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Hi Larry, Client has asked me to compare the cycle life because he is upgrading a large battery bank and has been convinced by a Xantrex scientist that golf cart batteries are superior to L-16's even though it involves twice as many batteries, connections, cells, footprint etc. So to convince his purchasing committee he wants to know the difference in cycle life between a U.S.B 208 and a Surrette S-460. Ron ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Twice I have encountered systems purchased by customers with 40 golf carts in a 24V system. In both cases the inverter was a DR2424. Different suppliers, too, around ten years ago. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 9/16/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Ray, If we were comparing the T-105 to the Trojan L-16 in a single string, I agree the T-105 will provide more life cycles. Been there, done that. But that was not the comparison. Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters On 9/16/2011 10:15 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote: Hi Ron, Have a look back a few months ago to the discussion about multiple battery strings. My synopsis: large, parallel banks are not good; fewer strings are always better. How large a bank are we talking about here? Scientist?? That sounds kind of like “Yea, I been a ‘lectrician for XX years...”, something I have heard hundreds of times. It’s just pride saying “Look, I can pee that far too!” when in reality they are clueless about DC power systems. I’m ranting but my point is you should convince your customer that a hands-on, real world experienced professional has a much broader understanding of RE system intricacies than a “scientist”. Larry From: Ron Young Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:11 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Hi Larry, Client has asked me to compare the cycle life
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Larry, I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware. Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet: 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles. HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 ratio. Ray Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hi All, Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1 year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check - and this is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by a third party who is not always reliably taking care of business; half the number of connections; half the footprint ... The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries in this scenario has to do with the company who set the systems up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be the easy availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's. Xantrex want to sell arrive and drop systems that will be sold through mass retailers from what I can see. The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000 series batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit suspect. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: From: Ray Walters r...@solarray.com Date: September 16, 2011 1:03:43 PM PDT To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Larry, I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware. Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet: 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles. HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 ratio. Ray Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in the long run. Ray Walters ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life: http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81php The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity begins being reduced. I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks like a typical L16, not over 500 cycles. Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on their website? Ray 7 PM, Ron Young wrote: Hi All, Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1 year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check - and this is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by a third party who is not always reliably taking care of business; half the number of connections; half the footprint ... The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries in this scenario has to do with the company who set the systems up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be the easy availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's. Xantrex want to sell arrive and drop systems that will be sold through mass retailers from what I can see. The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000 series batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit suspect. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com http://Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote: forwarded from earth2 Begin forwarded message: *From: *Ray Walters r...@solarray.com mailto:r...@solarray.com *Date: *September 16, 2011 1:03:43 PM PDT *To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery **Reply-To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Larry, I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware. Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet: 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles. HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 ratio. Ray Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value. I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding in maintenance
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Ray,
You referenced the wrong chart. Yours was for AGMs. Try
http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable.
Allan
Ron,
At 48V, I could be tempted to pick the 16 golf carts. Disadvantages:
More cells to water and smaller reservoirs. More interconnects, more
floor space. Advantages: More capacity for less money. More
tolerance for abuse. About the same real-world cycle life (just
based on experience). Lighter gauge and thus less expensive
interconnects. And two strings isn't too many. Like Ray, I'm not too
enamored of L16s as a value-based choice, although we use a fair
number. We typically see 4 1/2 - 7 years from L16s, and about the
same from golf carts.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com
On 9/16/2011 8:37 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life:
http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81php
The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity
begins being reduced.
I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks
like a typical L16, not over 500 cycles.
Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on
their website?
Ray
7 PM, Ron Young wrote:
Hi All,
Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this
conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of16
GC batteries(48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I
am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1
year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and
check - and this is important as the maintenance on these 4
systems is being done by a third party who is not always
reliably taking care of business; half the number of
connections; half the footprint ...
The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries
in this scenario has to do with the company who set the
systems up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be the easy
availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores
etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's.
Xantrex want to sell "arrive and drop" systems that will be
sold through mass retailers from what I can see.
The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000
series batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the
U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries
and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit suspect.
Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.com
Alternative
Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote:
forwarded from earth2
Begin forwarded message:
From: Ray Walters r...@solarray.com
Date: September 16, 2011
1:03:43 PM PDT
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches]
battery cycle life, US Battery
Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Larry,
I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and
strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will
still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see
only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the
HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart
batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good
design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer,
as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH
or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for
the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr
rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530
becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they
list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at
80%DOD
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Ron, For many years we have sold the US2200's and the Interstate version, the U2200 and I'd say they are nearly as good as the Trojan T-105. (buyer beware: Interstate switched to Johnson Control junk batteries and no longer sells the American made US Battery. http://starlightsolar.com/interstate.htm) I consider Rolls a superior long life battery compared to any other L16's. Curious here: why are you comparing an L-16 to a GC2? US Battery also makes a floor scrubber version, model US16HC XC. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 15, 2011, at 4:23 PM, RM You wrote: Hi Wrenches, trying to compare battery cycle life on L-16 Surrette/Rolls vs. U.S. Battery golf cart. Can't seem to find any clear info on the U.S. Battery 208 a/h golf cart. The chart that U.S. battery shows on their website only gives one cycle life graph for all of their batteries whereas Surrette/Rolls differentiates between the series 4000 and series 5000. Comments? Best Regards, Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hi Larry, Client has asked me to compare the cycle life because he is upgrading a large battery bank and has been convinced by a Xantrex scientist that golf cart batteries are superior to L-16's even though it involves twice as many batteries, connections, cells, footprint etc. So to convince his purchasing committee he wants to know the difference in cycle life between a U.S.B 208 and a Surrette S-460. Ron On 2011-09-15, at 4:52 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Ron, For many years we have sold the US2200's and the Interstate version, the U2200 and I'd say they are nearly as good as the Trojan T-105. (buyer beware: Interstate switched to Johnson Control junk batteries and no longer sells the American made US Battery. http://starlightsolar.com/interstate.htm) I consider Rolls a superior long life battery compared to any other L16's. Curious here: why are you comparing an L-16 to a GC2? US Battery also makes a floor scrubber version, model US16HC XC. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 15, 2011, at 4:23 PM, RM You wrote: Hi Wrenches, trying to compare battery cycle life on L-16 Surrette/Rolls vs. U.S. Battery golf cart. Can't seem to find any clear info on the U.S. Battery 208 a/h golf cart. The chart that U.S. battery shows on their website only gives one cycle life graph for all of their batteries whereas Surrette/Rolls differentiates between the series 4000 and series 5000. Comments? Best Regards, Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
