Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Mario Blättermann via release-team]

Hello Arnaud,

Arnaud Bonatti via gnome-i18n  schrieb am Di., 19.
März 2019, 16:43:

> Hi Alexandre,
>
> 2019-03-19 11:06 UTC+01:00, Alexandre Franke :
> > Sadly whether we translate it or not, it will still be seen as “GNOME
> > software” (it lives in GNOME/ on gitlab) and his behaviour will hurt
> > the good reputation of our translation work. If he’s not up to the
> > task of maintaining that piece of software correctly then he should be
> > handled in an appropriate way.
>
> Honestly, I though at the opposite that this way to do things would
> please both translators and users.
>
> Users, because it brings to them fixes to translations in a fast way
> (with some errors –I’m human, and do not write all languages on Earth–
> but mostly with improvements), and with less regressions also, as my
> patches are “saving” some old strings from not being applied.
>
> Translators, because I was giving back to them my suggestions, so that
> they could apply it or dismiss it in the main po/ files, a good way to
> improve their translations faster than before, and a real quality
> assurance, as I’m reading translations with a completely different
> vision of the application and with a complete knowledge on what each
> string does and where it goes (in the same logic, I also tried by the
> way to help translators here by adding comments in the code).
>
> > We’re now beyond the honest mistake
> > that a beginner would make and this qualifies as hostile since he was
> > already warned and he created that branch to work around us. Can the
> > release team give him back his training wheels, please?
>
> In last year debate, what I understood was that editing po/ files in
> the main branches (“master” and “gnome-3-xx”) was causing problems, as
> translators would not always be made aware of the change; here, what
> I’ve done is with a completely different logic, as translators have
> the final decision in the end, with every change.
>

Last year we haven't discussed about changes in other than the main
branches, because it was not imagineable that you would open a backdoor
some time later, using such a maintainer-only branch. Regarding the
mentioned "different logic", it is your logic, and it is hard to
understand. You've broken the simple rule "don't touch po files, and in
return translators don't touch your source files" again. And by the way,
the "final decision" is still yours, because you made the tarball release
from your maintainer-only branch (as Jeremy Bicha already stated).

But besides your logic, most of your "fixes" and "improvements" were
senseless and absolutely uncritical for the release, and some of them have
changed correct translations to incorrect ones. Is this your understanding
of making things better, even better than the translation teams can do?

Honestly, I didn’t imagined that translators would see something wrong
> with me using this new workflow,


This new workflow is no more than a cheap copy of the old one. I'm afraid
you still haven't understand the problem...

and I never thought of it as being
> “hostile” or “to work around [translators]”. Of course, I will stop
> pushing changed translations to users starting for now (and I hope I
> understood correctly the problem this time; are we at least ok on the
> words used?).
>
> Regards,
> Arnaud
>

I hope you respect the rules now. But you have abused the trust of the
Gnome TP members, you should be aware of that. Would be a good idea to keep
an eye on your future activities.

Best Regards,
Mario

>
> --
> Arnaud Bonatti
> 
> courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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>
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Arnaud Bonatti via release-team]

Hi Alexandre,

2019-03-19 11:06 UTC+01:00, Alexandre Franke :
> Sadly whether we translate it or not, it will still be seen as “GNOME
> software” (it lives in GNOME/ on gitlab) and his behaviour will hurt
> the good reputation of our translation work. If he’s not up to the
> task of maintaining that piece of software correctly then he should be
> handled in an appropriate way.

Honestly, I though at the opposite that this way to do things would
please both translators and users.

Users, because it brings to them fixes to translations in a fast way
(with some errors –I’m human, and do not write all languages on Earth–
but mostly with improvements), and with less regressions also, as my
patches are “saving” some old strings from not being applied.

Translators, because I was giving back to them my suggestions, so that
they could apply it or dismiss it in the main po/ files, a good way to
improve their translations faster than before, and a real quality
assurance, as I’m reading translations with a completely different
vision of the application and with a complete knowledge on what each
string does and where it goes (in the same logic, I also tried by the
way to help translators here by adding comments in the code).

> We’re now beyond the honest mistake
> that a beginner would make and this qualifies as hostile since he was
> already warned and he created that branch to work around us. Can the
> release team give him back his training wheels, please?

In last year debate, what I understood was that editing po/ files in
the main branches (“master” and “gnome-3-xx”) was causing problems, as
translators would not always be made aware of the change; here, what
I’ve done is with a completely different logic, as translators have
the final decision in the end, with every change.

Honestly, I didn’t imagined that translators would see something wrong
with me using this new workflow, and I never thought of it as being
“hostile” or “to work around [translators]”. Of course, I will stop
pushing changed translations to users starting for now (and I hope I
understood correctly the problem this time; are we at least ok on the
words used?).

Regards,
Arnaud

-- 
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Arnaud Bonatti via release-team]

Hi Claude Paroz, hi Ask Hjorth Larsen,

2019-03-18 20:35 UTC+01:00, Claude Paroz :
>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:02 AM, Arnaud Bonatti
>>  wrote:
> ...
>>> If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
>>> hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before it
>>> hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join the
>>> translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true story. Not
>>> a big issue, but a real life one.)
>
> However the example above is a typical example whete it would be crucial
> that gnome-i18n is aware of the issue, because the person that committed
> that is either malicious and his account should immediately be blocked,
> or his account has been hacked and he should be aware of that.

Of course, when I discovered that thing, I imagined various scenarii
like these; but that’s clearly not the case; that’s just a domain name
of a translation team that has been abandonned, and reused for
something else. The link is a broken link, so it’s not a direct
promotion (hopefully!), it’s just pointing to an inappropriate
website.

2019-03-18 21:14 UTC+01:00, Ask Hjorth Larsen :
> I agree with this - also, reporting the smaller errors to the
> translation teams could mean that they are corrected elsewhere, as
> they are likely repeated in the 100+ GNOME modules.  I wonder if that
> link is found in multiple modules?

Well, if that problem is/was on my priorities of the week, that’s the
reason… I think most GNOME applications have this link in their About
dialog. So if it’s not a big issue in itsefl, it would be great to fix
it, and everywhere.

So, what’s the problem? well, dconf-editor’s Bulgarian translation
po/bg.po contains:
msgid "translator-credits"
msgstr ""
"Александър Шопов \n"
"\n"
"Проектът за превод на GNOME има нужда от подкрепа.\n"
"Научете повече за нас на http://gnome.cult.bg\;>http://gnome.cult.;
"bg\n"
"Докладвайте за грешки на http://gnome.cult.bg/bugs\;>http://gnome.;
"cult.bg/bugs"

That text is the one displayed in the About dialog for crediting
translators, but people on that list must know that. :·) The subdomain
http://gnome.cult.bg is broken, hopefully, that’s why it’s clearly not
malicious; but the domain http://cult.bg is… surprising.

As we’re here, if someone would like to take care of contacting the
correct people to fix this issue, that would be really appreciated.
:·)

Regards,
Arnaud

-- 
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Alexandre Franke]

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:41 PM Mart Raudsepp via gnome-i18n
 wrote:
> And of course changes all over the place that copy phrases and strings
> over from somewhere else, presumably without knowing the language or
> grammar and other subtleties.

Even for a language he knows (French, his mother tongue) he makes
changes that are inacceptable. In
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/f2ef1624d3878b624456365beb2c69632eba11fe
he changed a correct translation to an incorrect one.

> In general there are real fixes and probable improvements in there, but
> I don't see why the language teams just get trampled over here.

Thanks, that is indeed an appropriate term for the situation.

> It is
> maybe theoretically beneficial to languages that can't keep up at all,
> and it's just a way to keep it (a bit more) up to date; but for active
> languages, it's actively stepping over the language teams and defeating
> the process. As far as I'm concerned, if it's a GNOME project, you
> don't touch the translations yourself.

Even for inactive languages, that was not the place to do such
changes. It should have gone through i18n review.

> Lets just say that dconf-editor at this point is not something I feel
> like I shall be translating anytime soon, as it'll not be what gets
> shipped anyways. If you want to be the translator for all languages,
> you also get to translate it all, not only improve and "improve" stuff.
> This is a two-way street.

Sadly whether we translate it or not, it will still be seen as “GNOME
software” (it lives in GNOME/ on gitlab) and his behaviour will hurt
the good reputation of our translation work. If he’s not up to the
task of maintaining that piece of software correctly then he should be
handled in an appropriate way. We’re now beyond the honest mistake
that a beginner would make and this qualifies as hostile since he was
already warned and he created that branch to work around us. Can the
release team give him back his training wheels, please?

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Matej Urbančič]

Hello,
I do appreciate this debate, it is very important ... I need to chip in my
2 cents.
I was not aware Arnaud was committing changes to different projects, but:
- he did send me a note, pointing me to 2 translations that broke UI (which
still bedazzle me, how that happened),
- he asked about couple of other strings
- I asked him to update the Slovenian translation since the time span
before release was short but
- then I found some extra time and checked and updated the dconf-editor
anyway, committing additional changes.

I did not feel any problems about our communication ... even more, if he
hadn't notified me, I would not till now be aware of the errors!, and even
worse, I would commit later updates with the same breaking string.

The problem I see in cases like Slovenian example about Translators is lack
of "Comments" from developers, similarly comments would be useful also when
the strings are spited, unusual, long ... searching where strings pops up
is a drag. Comments should describe where and what a specific string is.

Best,

Matej

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:41 PM Mart Raudsepp via gnome-i18n <
gnome-i...@gnome.org> wrote:

> Ühel kenal päeval, E, 18.03.2019 kell 20:35, kirjutas Claude Paroz:
> > Le 18.03.19 à 15:17, mcatanz...@gnome.org a écrit :
> > > Please keep gnome-i...@gnome.org CCed
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:02 AM, Arnaud Bonatti
> > >  wrote:
> > ...
> > > > If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
> > > > hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before
> > > > it
> > > > hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join
> > > > the
> > > > translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true
> > > > story. Not
> > > > a big issue, but a real life one.)
> >
> > Hello Arnaud,
> >
> > I'm sure you have good intentions and you want the better for you
> > released software.
> > However the example above is a typical example whete it would be
> > crucial
> > that gnome-i18n is aware of the issue, because the person that
> > committed
> > that is either malicious and his account should immediately be
> > blocked,
> > or his account has been hacked and he should be aware of that.
> >
> > So if you report a serious issue to a translator team and don't get
> > a
> > prompt answer, you should imemdiately escalate the issue to gnome-
> > i18n
> > so we can take proper action.
>
> Only things related to links I noticed was
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/0e6f727e249f259939f65c44c70bc173cf214292
> which is just a dead link.
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/c34101ac613708fbd5bad3f4fe1ebb4574f3f29f
> which shows the same page.
> And various changes from http to https by Arnaud.
> So some commit I missed had an outdated translator-credits?
> I even checked
> git diff origin/gnome-3-32..origin/maintainer-only-3-32 |grep http
>
>
> Meanwhile I see stuff like this instead:
>
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/cb0708fedc224ae9274645d8d8e377953f37c233
> Breaks unicode typography for the language - this language team uses
> ”%s” kind of markup typography throughout the desktop, not the English
> specific “%s”, but this is broken by this commit from Arnaud. I would
> be very angry if he broke my strings like this; but unfortunately (or
> fortunately?) we are in such a state that dconf-editor isn't really
> translated. I'd use „%s“, as told by our NATIONAL language institute(!)
> which Arnaud would break. I bet this is a similar case with baski here
> for eu.po file.
>
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/3704fbb76c70def8718da2a62de12958cd7c7248
> Probably changes translation of "Creators" from slovenian "Creators" to
> "Created" instead
>
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/20d7339d1cceab3f8e16cebf8a054740fd02dd95
>
>
> And of course changes all over the place that copy phrases and strings
> over from somewhere else, presumably without knowing the language or
> grammar and other subtleties.
>
> In general there are real fixes and probable improvements in there, but
> I don't see why the language teams just get trampled over here. It is
> maybe theoretically beneficial to languages that can't keep up at all,
> and it's just a way to keep it (a bit more) up to date; but for active
> languages, it's actively stepping over the language teams and defeating
> the process. As far as I'm concerned, if it's a GNOME project, you
> don't touch the translations yourself.
> If a language has such trouble, I don't think it makes sense to go
> spend hours and hours of time without knowing the language on tweaking
> things in an application that frankly no regular user should end up
> running anyways. Meanwhile it's then supposedly not good in 100 other
> GNOME modules for the language that people are actually exposed to.
>
> Lets just say that dconf-editor at this point is not something I feel
> like I shall be translating anytime soon, as it'll not be 

Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Mart Raudsepp via release-team]

Ühel kenal päeval, E, 18.03.2019 kell 20:35, kirjutas Claude Paroz:
> Le 18.03.19 à 15:17, mcatanz...@gnome.org a écrit :
> > Please keep gnome-i...@gnome.org CCed
> > 
> > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:02 AM, Arnaud Bonatti 
> >  wrote:
> ...
> > > If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
> > > hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before
> > > it
> > > hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join
> > > the
> > > translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true
> > > story. Not
> > > a big issue, but a real life one.)
> 
> Hello Arnaud,
> 
> I'm sure you have good intentions and you want the better for you 
> released software.
> However the example above is a typical example whete it would be
> crucial 
> that gnome-i18n is aware of the issue, because the person that
> committed 
> that is either malicious and his account should immediately be
> blocked, 
> or his account has been hacked and he should be aware of that.
> 
> So if you report a serious issue to a translator team and don't get
> a 
> prompt answer, you should imemdiately escalate the issue to gnome-
> i18n 
> so we can take proper action.

Only things related to links I noticed was
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/0e6f727e249f259939f65c44c70bc173cf214292
which is just a dead link.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/c34101ac613708fbd5bad3f4fe1ebb4574f3f29f
which shows the same page.
And various changes from http to https by Arnaud.
So some commit I missed had an outdated translator-credits?
I even checked
git diff origin/gnome-3-32..origin/maintainer-only-3-32 |grep http


Meanwhile I see stuff like this instead:

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/cb0708fedc224ae9274645d8d8e377953f37c233
Breaks unicode typography for the language - this language team uses
”%s” kind of markup typography throughout the desktop, not the English
specific “%s”, but this is broken by this commit from Arnaud. I would
be very angry if he broke my strings like this; but unfortunately (or
fortunately?) we are in such a state that dconf-editor isn't really
translated. I'd use „%s“, as told by our NATIONAL language institute(!)
which Arnaud would break. I bet this is a similar case with baski here
for eu.po file.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/3704fbb76c70def8718da2a62de12958cd7c7248
Probably changes translation of "Creators" from slovenian "Creators" to
"Created" instead

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commit/20d7339d1cceab3f8e16cebf8a054740fd02dd95


And of course changes all over the place that copy phrases and strings
over from somewhere else, presumably without knowing the language or
grammar and other subtleties.

In general there are real fixes and probable improvements in there, but
I don't see why the language teams just get trampled over here. It is
maybe theoretically beneficial to languages that can't keep up at all,
and it's just a way to keep it (a bit more) up to date; but for active
languages, it's actively stepping over the language teams and defeating
the process. As far as I'm concerned, if it's a GNOME project, you
don't touch the translations yourself.
If a language has such trouble, I don't think it makes sense to go
spend hours and hours of time without knowing the language on tweaking
things in an application that frankly no regular user should end up
running anyways. Meanwhile it's then supposedly not good in 100 other
GNOME modules for the language that people are actually exposed to.

Lets just say that dconf-editor at this point is not something I feel
like I shall be translating anytime soon, as it'll not be what gets
shipped anyways. If you want to be the translator for all languages,
you also get to translate it all, not only improve and "improve" stuff.
This is a two-way street.


Mart

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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Ask Hjorth Larsen via release-team]

Am Mo., 18. März 2019 um 20:36 Uhr schrieb Claude Paroz :
>
> Le 18.03.19 à 15:17, mcatanz...@gnome.org a écrit :
> > Please keep gnome-i...@gnome.org CCed
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:02 AM, Arnaud Bonatti
> >  wrote:
> ...
> >> If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
> >> hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before it
> >> hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join the
> >> translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true story. Not
> >> a big issue, but a real life one.)
>
> Hello Arnaud,
>
> I'm sure you have good intentions and you want the better for you
> released software.
> However the example above is a typical example whete it would be crucial
> that gnome-i18n is aware of the issue, because the person that committed
> that is either malicious and his account should immediately be blocked,
> or his account has been hacked and he should be aware of that.
>
> So if you report a serious issue to a translator team and don't get a
> prompt answer, you should imemdiately escalate the issue to gnome-i18n
> so we can take proper action.

I agree with this - also, reporting the smaller errors to the
translation teams could mean that they are corrected elsewhere, as
they are likely repeated in the 100+ GNOME modules.  I wonder if that
link is found in multiple modules?

(Of course it is tedious to wait for the translation teams when
there's a release deadline and you're doing the final polishing.)

Best regards
Ask

>
> Thanks for your understanding.
>
> Claude
> --
> www.2xlibre.net
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Claude Paroz]

Le 18.03.19 à 15:17, mcatanz...@gnome.org a écrit :

Please keep gnome-i...@gnome.org CCed

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:02 AM, Arnaud Bonatti 
 wrote:

...

If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before it
hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join the
translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true story. Not
a big issue, but a real life one.)


Hello Arnaud,

I'm sure you have good intentions and you want the better for you 
released software.
However the example above is a typical example whete it would be crucial 
that gnome-i18n is aware of the issue, because the person that committed 
that is either malicious and his account should immediately be blocked, 
or his account has been hacked and he should be aware of that.


So if you report a serious issue to a translator team and don't get a 
prompt answer, you should imemdiately escalate the issue to gnome-i18n 
so we can take proper action.


Thanks for your understanding.

Claude
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Mario Blättermann via release-team]

 schrieb am Mo., 18. März 2019, 15:17:

> Please keep gnome-i...@gnome.org CCed
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:02 AM, Arnaud Bonatti
>  wrote:
> > Hi Jeremy and Michael, hi release-team,
> >
> > 2019-03-17 17:01 UTC+01:00, mcatanz...@gnome.org
> > :
> >>  I see:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commits/maintainer-only-3-32/po
> >>
> >>  which seems pretty excessive. You probably wouldn't be very happy if
> >>  translators starting introducing unexpected changes outside of po/,
> >>  right? In the same way, the translators would prefer you to not make
> >>  changes under po/.
> >
> > That’s my role as a maintainer to ensure that the product that is
> > taggued as stable does not look broken.
> >
>
Your role as a maintainer doesn't include unauthorized changes of po files,
which aren't approved by the translation teams and get released secretly
via a "maintainer only" Git branch. As I already wrote one year ago: Never
touch po files, really never! If you don't stop with your willful "fixes"
and "improvements", we should consider to remove dconf-editor (and any
other software maintained by you) from the Damned Lies pages.

Best Regards,
Mario


> If translations are breaking the application layout, by translating
> > the word “Translators” as something crediting translators on a
> > long
> > multiline string (the said “translator-credits” string from the
> > About
> > dialog), it’s my role to not tag a stable release without these
> > translations fixed.
> >
> > If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
> > hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before it
> > hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join the
> > translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true story.
> > Not
> > a big issue, but a real life one.)
> >
> >>  Why is this necessary? They can't maintain their translations if you
> >>  have your own separate translations that never make it into
> >>  l10n.gnome.org.
> >
> > My goal is of course to upstream these changes is l10n, not to
> > maintain a out of tree patchset indefinitely.
> >
> > But this upstreaming takes time: sometimes translators do not answer
> > (see
> >
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=product:l10n%20dconf-editor
> > for long-time bugs without answers), sometimes translators take time
> > to understand the problem, and I have to tag a stable release by the
> > time.
> >
> > But that should not be a surprise if the last commit before the 3.32
> > dconf-editor release (8d0fa918) is fixing in one translation a problem
> > I discovered and temporarily fixed in other po files, that’s part of
> > my work with translators on these issues.
> >
> > As opposed to what Jeremy Bicha says, my current workflow is not
> > breaking the translators one; that was not the case with my previous
> > attempts (sorry again with that). And it is fixing translations for
> > real life users. And that’s the important part of this story.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Arnaud
> >
> > --
> > Arnaud Bonatti
> > 
> > courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
>
>
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[mcatanzaro]

Please keep gnome-i...@gnome.org CCed

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 5:02 AM, Arnaud Bonatti 
 wrote:

Hi Jeremy and Michael, hi release-team,

2019-03-17 17:01 UTC+01:00, mcatanz...@gnome.org 
:

 I see:

 
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commits/maintainer-only-3-32/po


 which seems pretty excessive. You probably wouldn't be very happy if
 translators starting introducing unexpected changes outside of po/,
 right? In the same way, the translators would prefer you to not make
 changes under po/.


That’s my role as a maintainer to ensure that the product that is
taggued as stable does not look broken.

If translations are breaking the application layout, by translating
the word “Translators” as something crediting translators on a 
long
multiline string (the said “translator-credits” string from the 
About

dialog), it’s my role to not tag a stable release without these
translations fixed.

If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before it
hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join the
translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true story. 
Not

a big issue, but a real life one.)


 Why is this necessary? They can't maintain their translations if you
 have your own separate translations that never make it into
 l10n.gnome.org.


My goal is of course to upstream these changes is l10n, not to
maintain a out of tree patchset indefinitely.

But this upstreaming takes time: sometimes translators do not answer
(see 
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=product:l10n%20dconf-editor

for long-time bugs without answers), sometimes translators take time
to understand the problem, and I have to tag a stable release by the
time.

But that should not be a surprise if the last commit before the 3.32
dconf-editor release (8d0fa918) is fixing in one translation a problem
I discovered and temporarily fixed in other po files, that’s part of
my work with translators on these issues.

As opposed to what Jeremy Bicha says, my current workflow is not
breaking the translators one; that was not the case with my previous
attempts (sorry again with that). And it is fixing translations for
real life users. And that’s the important part of this story.

Regards,
Arnaud

--
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com



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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Arnaud Bonatti via release-team]

Hi Jeremy and Michael, hi release-team,

2019-03-17 17:01 UTC+01:00, mcatanz...@gnome.org :
> I see:
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commits/maintainer-only-3-32/po
>
> which seems pretty excessive. You probably wouldn't be very happy if
> translators starting introducing unexpected changes outside of po/,
> right? In the same way, the translators would prefer you to not make
> changes under po/.

That’s my role as a maintainer to ensure that the product that is
taggued as stable does not look broken.

If translations are breaking the application layout, by translating
the word “Translators” as something crediting translators on a long
multiline string (the said “translator-credits” string from the About
dialog), it’s my role to not tag a stable release without these
translations fixed.

If a translation contains a web link to what is currently an
hypnotherapist website, it’s my role to remove that link before it
hits the stable release. Even if I didn’t had the time to join the
translator or its team to fix it in l10n. (Yes, it’s a true story. Not
a big issue, but a real life one.)

> Why is this necessary? They can't maintain their translations if you
> have your own separate translations that never make it into
> l10n.gnome.org.

My goal is of course to upstream these changes is l10n, not to
maintain a out of tree patchset indefinitely.

But this upstreaming takes time: sometimes translators do not answer
(see 
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=product:l10n%20dconf-editor
for long-time bugs without answers), sometimes translators take time
to understand the problem, and I have to tag a stable release by the
time.

But that should not be a surprise if the last commit before the 3.32
dconf-editor release (8d0fa918) is fixing in one translation a problem
I discovered and temporarily fixed in other po files, that’s part of
my work with translators on these issues.

As opposed to what Jeremy Bicha says, my current workflow is not
breaking the translators one; that was not the case with my previous
attempts (sorry again with that). And it is fixing translations for
real life users. And that’s the important part of this story.

Regards,
Arnaud

-- 
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[mcatanzaro]

On Sun, Mar 17, 2019 at 10:11 AM, Jeremy Bicha  
wrote:

I am reviving this old thread because it looks like Arnaud never
stopped making his changes. He has created separate "maintainer-only"
branches. He makes his release tags and tarball releases from those
branches. This has continued with the dconf-editor 3.32.0 release from
a few days ago.

This behavior is very disruptive to the translator workflow.
Translators have a very reasonable expectation that their translations
(as seen in the master and stable git branches and at l10n.gnome.org)
will make it to distros and users without being "fixed" in a hidden
way first.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/tags
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commits/maintainer-only-3-32

Jeremy


Hi Arnaud,

I see:

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commits/maintainer-only-3-32/po

which seems pretty excessive. You probably wouldn't be very happy if 
translators starting introducing unexpected changes outside of po/, 
right? In the same way, the translators would prefer you to not make 
changes under po/.


Why is this necessary? They can't maintain their translations if you 
have your own separate translations that never make it into 
l10n.gnome.org.


Michael


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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 12:18 PM Piotr Drąg  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> A few days ago Arnaud Bonatti, the dconf-editor maintainer, started
> committing changes to translations:
>
> https://git.gnome.org/browse/dconf-editor/log/po?qt=author=Arnaud+Bonatti
>
> These changes were not consulted with any translation team or i18n
> coordinators. They also seem unneeded at best, and harmful at worst. I
> sent an email to Arnaud yesterday asking him to stop
> (https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2018-February/msg00081.html),
> but today even more changes were committed. Please advise.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Piotr Drąg

I am reviving this old thread because it looks like Arnaud never
stopped making his changes. He has created separate "maintainer-only"
branches. He makes his release tags and tarball releases from those
branches. This has continued with the dconf-editor 3.32.0 release from
a few days ago.

This behavior is very disruptive to the translator workflow.
Translators have a very reasonable expectation that their translations
(as seen in the master and stable git branches and at l10n.gnome.org)
will make it to distros and users without being "fixed" in a hidden
way first.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/tags
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/dconf-editor/commits/maintainer-only-3-32

Jeremy
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Alexandre Franke]

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Arnaud Bonatti 
wrote:

> 2018-03-06 12:48 UTC+01:00, Alexandre Franke :
> > The revert is incomplete. I’m only looking at French and I still see your
> > harmful change from typographic apostrophe to single quote.
>
> You’re right, I’ve forgotten something here, I’ll fix it and propose a
> patch in the l10n product. But my revert is manually done, I don’t
> know a way to check what I could have forgotten, I just know it has
> mostly worked.
>
> Question to the French translator: you say “harmful change from
> typographic apostrophe to single quote”, but the “dconf-editor” French
> translation uses only single quotes, sadly for me who always type with
> typographic apostrophe. This change I’ve done was to have the same
> apostrophe everywhere in the translation. Should I propose a patch
> that change all apostrophes to typographic apostrophe? What’s the
> current view of the French project?
>

That’s a perfect example of why you shouldn’t have made your changes in the
first place and reached out to translators instead. We switched to
typographic apostrophe for 3.26. All new strings should already be using
them and we fix them in old strings as we go when working on new strings in
a module. We actually have a translation for dconf-editor currently on
Damned lies which we blocked mid-process because of your changes.

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker & Foundation Director
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Arnaud Bonatti]

2018-03-06 12:48 UTC+01:00, Alexandre Franke :
> The revert is incomplete. I’m only looking at French and I still see your
> harmful change from typographic apostrophe to single quote.

You’re right, I’ve forgotten something here, I’ll fix it and propose a
patch in the l10n product. But my revert is manually done, I don’t
know a way to check what I could have forgotten, I just know it has
mostly worked.

Question to the French translator: you say “harmful change from
typographic apostrophe to single quote”, but the “dconf-editor” French
translation uses only single quotes, sadly for me who always type with
typographic apostrophe. This change I’ve done was to have the same
apostrophe everywhere in the translation. Should I propose a patch
that change all apostrophes to typographic apostrophe? What’s the
current view of the French project?

-- 
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Alexandre Franke]

On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 4:08 AM, Arnaud Bonatti 
wrote:

> 2018-03-04 19:16 UTC+01:00, Piotr Drąg :
> > If it’s doable, then do it. Preferably right now.
>
> Done, and sorry again for the inconvenience!
>

The revert is incomplete. I’m only looking at French and I still see your
harmful change from typographic apostrophe to single quote. Please fix all
remaining unapproved changes ASAP.

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker & Foundation Director
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Arnaud Bonatti]

2018-03-04 19:16 UTC+01:00, Piotr Drąg :
> If it’s doable, then do it. Preferably right now.

Done, and sorry again for the inconvenience!

-- 
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Piotr Drąg]

2018-03-04 19:13 GMT+01:00 Arnaud Bonatti :
> 2018-03-04 18:02 UTC+01:00, Piotr Drąg :
>> You’re welcome to post patches at
>>  next
>> time you feel like “improving”.
>
> I’ll remember that.
>
>> It would be best if you could revert all these commits.
>
> Well… that’s doable of course. But with the current state of things,
> it’s easy to use the `grep` tool to find some translations bugs like
> quoting mark errors in translations (\n instead of „/“/”/«/»/etc., or
> the opposite), where it was completely impossible with the previous
> noise, and the same with the spacing/non-spacing/other before “bit”
> (and other use cases). Of course, if some specific projects prefer,
> I’ll revert my change on their po file, but I really don’t think it’s
> a good idea to remove as a whole. Not even counting all the lost
> fixes.
>

If it’s doable, then do it. Preferably right now.

-- 
Piotr Drąg
https://piotrdrag.fedorapeople.org
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Arnaud Bonatti]

2018-03-04 18:02 UTC+01:00, Piotr Drąg :
> You’re welcome to post patches at
>  next
> time you feel like “improving”.

I’ll remember that.

> It would be best if you could revert all these commits.

Well… that’s doable of course. But with the current state of things,
it’s easy to use the `grep` tool to find some translations bugs like
quoting mark errors in translations (\n instead of „/“/”/«/»/etc., or
the opposite), where it was completely impossible with the previous
noise, and the same with the spacing/non-spacing/other before “bit”
(and other use cases). Of course, if some specific projects prefer,
I’ll revert my change on their po file, but I really don’t think it’s
a good idea to remove as a whole. Not even counting all the lost
fixes.

-- 
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Piotr Drąg]

2018-03-04 17:51 GMT+01:00 Arnaud Bonatti :
> Hi everybody, sorry for the delayed reply. I don’t check these lists
> daily, and my filters has also hidden the direct mail, sorry Piotr
> Drąg. :·(
>
> 2018-03-01 18:18 UTC+01:00, Piotr Drąg :
>> A few days ago Arnaud Bonatti, the dconf-editor maintainer, started
>> committing changes to translations:
>>
>> https://git.gnome.org/browse/dconf-editor/log/po?qt=author=Arnaud+Bonatti
>
> Yes. I’m sorry. I’m a perfectionist, and directly working on things
> helps me seen how the “dconf-editor product” finishes in people hands,
> for improving it. In all my po files edits, I’ve spotted tenths of
> typos in various languages, one bug in the generation of eight strings
> (translated by translators, but not applied to the application; I’m
> currently working on a fix for before the last unstable release), and
> one case where I should improve code for helping i18n.
>
> Hope that hasn’t caused too much “harm” for teams, but that has been
> really helpful from a releaser/maintainer point of view. I’ve notably
> realized how many strings are translated and how useful/not-so-useful
> ones are mixed, and will probably ask for a split of the “demo” string
> in a following cycle, so translators of small teams could concentrate
> on the application general UI. And globally, I’m more aware now of
> some problems of my code, and that’ll help in the future.
>
> 2018-03-01 21:10 UTC+01:00, Michael Catanzaro :
>> Normally, the translators like to update their po files themselves.
>> Just like you probably don't want translators modifying your code. ;) I
>> know you're just trying to reduce fuzziness of the strings, but I would
>> leave these files alone from now on, OK?
>
> Well, if some translators want to improved my code in revenge, I’d
> honestly thank them to do so. ^^ But I understood, that’s not
> something I’ll redo, I just needed to have a view of what was
> happening between code and users, and that has been enlightening. I’ve
> finished, apart for the big bug I’m working on, but that’s for a
> following email. ^^
>

You’re welcome to post patches at
 next
time you feel like “improving”.

It would be best if you could revert all these commits.

-- 
Piotr Drąg
https://piotrdrag.fedorapeople.org
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Arnaud Bonatti]

Hi everybody, sorry for the delayed reply. I don’t check these lists
daily, and my filters has also hidden the direct mail, sorry Piotr
Drąg. :·(

2018-03-01 18:18 UTC+01:00, Piotr Drąg :
> A few days ago Arnaud Bonatti, the dconf-editor maintainer, started
> committing changes to translations:
>
> https://git.gnome.org/browse/dconf-editor/log/po?qt=author=Arnaud+Bonatti

Yes. I’m sorry. I’m a perfectionist, and directly working on things
helps me seen how the “dconf-editor product” finishes in people hands,
for improving it. In all my po files edits, I’ve spotted tenths of
typos in various languages, one bug in the generation of eight strings
(translated by translators, but not applied to the application; I’m
currently working on a fix for before the last unstable release), and
one case where I should improve code for helping i18n.

Hope that hasn’t caused too much “harm” for teams, but that has been
really helpful from a releaser/maintainer point of view. I’ve notably
realized how many strings are translated and how useful/not-so-useful
ones are mixed, and will probably ask for a split of the “demo” string
in a following cycle, so translators of small teams could concentrate
on the application general UI. And globally, I’m more aware now of
some problems of my code, and that’ll help in the future.

2018-03-01 21:10 UTC+01:00, Michael Catanzaro :
> Normally, the translators like to update their po files themselves.
> Just like you probably don't want translators modifying your code. ;) I
> know you're just trying to reduce fuzziness of the strings, but I would
> leave these files alone from now on, OK?

Well, if some translators want to improved my code in revenge, I’d
honestly thank them to do so. ^^ But I understood, that’s not
something I’ll redo, I just needed to have a view of what was
happening between code and users, and that has been enlightening. I’ve
finished, apart for the big bug I’m working on, but that’s for a
following email. ^^

Regards,
Arnaud

-- 
Arnaud Bonatti

courriel : arnaud.bona...@gmail.com
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Re: Unauthorized translation changes in dconf-editor

[Michael Catanzaro]

Hey Arnaud!

Normally, the translators like to update their po files themselves. 
Just like you probably don't want translators modifying your code. ;) I 
know you're just trying to reduce fuzziness of the strings, but I would 
leave these files alone from now on, OK?


Thanks,

Michael

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