[Repeater-Builder] Re: Source for custum made cables
Mike, Sorry for the confusion. Guess I don't spell too good.. I used to get their catalog at work, seemed like every couple of months. They were kind of high on prices but seemed to have just about everything one could need. It would seem that the subject is now moot, anyhow, as the original poster has come up with a different solution. 73, Al, K9SI Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 12:51:19 -0800 From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: Source for custom made cables At 11:07 AM 12/18/04, you wrote: Bill Pasternak will build you any kind of cable assembly for a price. Bill Pasternak, WA6ITF, of Newsline fame, has absolutely no relationship with Pasternack Enterprises, the cable company. Pasternak Enterprises It's Pasternack Enterprises - note the ck versus k at the end. P. O. Box 16759 Irvine, CA 92623 Ph 714-261-1920 No known web presence. http://www.pasternack.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] Google is your friend There is probably a option on the web page to get one of their printed catalogs mailed to you. Mike WA6ILQ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Hi Matt, Matt wrote: Hi Kevin, Just a quick question regarding your earlier email - I thought crystal oscillators were cleaner (as far as noise sidebands are concerned ) than PLL types. Actually it depends on the circuitry associated with crystal. While some better crystal controlled exciters can exhibit lower side-band noise levels than poorly designed PLL units, better PLL designs can offer a considerable improvement in signal spectral purity. Is this not the case in the GE Mastr II you mention below, as you indicate the PLL type of exciter is better? Is this particular to this design? Correct, please refer to this information presented by GE and Dave Karr on the subject: http://www.ka9fur.net/geduplex/duplex.html If you look at the curves for the highband multiplier exciter, then compare them to the PLL model, you'll see the difference. These are the second and third links under the Mastr II section of Dave's page. The multiplier exciter shows needing about 78 dB of noise reduction at 600 kHz, where the PLL model needs about 56 dB at that same spacing, or a difference of 22 dB less transmitter side-band noise reduction for the same performance. Don't get me wrong here Kevin- I'm not trying to poke holes in what you are suggesting, I just thought xtals would be cleaner? Actually, in the case of the GE Mastr II PLL exciter, the frequency determining element is still a quartz crystal located in a channel ICOM. The crystal frequency determines the operating frequency just like the multiplier exciter, however, there are elementary differences one needs to understand to see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner. In a typical Multiplier exciter, a quartz crystal is used as a reference to determine the operating frequency. In addition to being the frequency reference, the quartz crystal is also the signal generator in which the operating frequency is the direct result of multiplying the crystals fundamental frequency a particular number of times. In the GE Mastr II highband exciter, this number is 12. As a result of having but one oscillator, and the math, the frequency is not the only thing multiplied; but also all of the noise on either side of it. Sure, the Q or bandwidth of the tuned circuitry helps with the spectral purity, but since they aren't critically sharp (like in a tuned tube PA circuit) noise on either side of the carrier is amplified and multiplied as well as the operating carrier. Since most exciters of this era would operate over several hundred kHz without retuning, one can easily see that circuit Q isn't going to help much with making the signal cleaner. In the GE PLL exciter, a quartz crystal is also used as a reference for determining the operating frequency, but that's where the similarities end. In a Mastr II PLL exciter you have two oscillators, one is the crystal oscillator described earlier, and, in addition, a free running L-C tuned oscillator capable of producing frequencies directly on the desired operating frequency. You see, we now have an oscillator that operates directly on the high-band, at its fundamental frequency; NOT one that has been 'multiplied' up to it. The quartz derived oscillator is used to set the desired operating frequency by holding it still. This is done by 'locking' the frequency of the free running oscillator to the quartz derived oscillator. The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference, but, the output signal is much cleaner because it was not 'multiplied' up. Although there is more to it than this generalization, you now see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner than its multiplier counterpart. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Kevin Custer wrote: If you have a GE Mastr II two meter or highband repeater that has inadequate duplexer isolation, change out the exciter to a PLL type and take advantage of the 20+ dB less transmitter side-band noise. Another thing is to consider using a tube type PA deck, like the GE 4EF5A1, with a typical 'multiplier' exciter. This could allow power levels in excess of 200 watts or more without suffering from inadequate transmitter side-band noise suppression. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Question on Mitrek
I have a Motorola Mitrek UHF 110 Watt Mobile I plan to use the PA on my uhf repeaters radios,The Repeater is doing 9 watts output and was wanting to know if 9 watts will drive the PA ok or will the Transmitter need to be turn down on power to drive the PA without blowing the PA..Bob N2BR Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Pasternack
Does anybody actually order from them? I've gotten a catalog for years, but never ordered. Prices were too high and minimum out of reach. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Al Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:01 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Source for custum made cables Mike, Sorry for the confusion. Guess I don't spell too good.. I used to get their catalog at work, seemed like every couple of months. They were kind of high on prices but seemed to have just about everything one could need. It would seem that the subject is now moot, anyhow, as the original poster has come up with a different solution. 73, Al, K9SI Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Question on Mitrek
At 02:17 AM 12/19/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Motorola Mitrek UHF 110 Watt Mobile I plan to use the PA on my uhf repeaters radios,The Repeater is doing 9 watts output and was wanting to know if 9 watts will drive the PA ok or will the Transmitter need to be turn down on power to drive the PA without blowing the PA. ---Why would you want to do that? Aside from whether or not 9 watts is too much drive for it (which it is!), the Mitrek PA is not continuous duty. So why bother? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Question on Mitrek
Thanks for the reply well i did not know if it work or now,I been trying to sale or trade this mitrek but gess sence Bush got back in no one has any money.But i would trake it for a uhf fm amp that take 9 -14 watt input with up to 100 watts out,Dont need the mitrek just in my way.Make good door stop and paper weight tho...Bob/N2BR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 02:17 AM 12/19/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Motorola Mitrek UHF 110 Watt Mobile I plan to use the PA on my uhf repeaters radios,The Repeater is doing 9 watts output and was wanting to know if 9 watts will drive the PA ok or will the Transmitter need to be turn down on power to drive the PA without blowing the PA. ---Why would you want to do that? Aside from whether or not 9 watts is too much drive for it (which it is!), the Mitrek PA is not continuous duty. So why bother? Ken --- --- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Ge UHF amp
Does anyone have a schematic for a GE power master amp P3AR5A6 UHF. If so please contact me off the list. Thanks, Al Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Source for custum made cables
Kevin, Do you still recomend www.therfc.com ? I have been using them for years now and have never had any problems with them. The cables they make a excellent in quality and they ship very fast. Ray K6PNG Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] For Sale or For Trade
For sale or for trade. Due to a repeater changing frequency I have a spare Micor RX element (KXN1024) set up on 440.600mhz. It was rebuilt and temp-comp'd by International Crystal. Mike WA6ILQ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Insurance
The local club is currently moving our repeter system, a linked three receiver site/one transmitter site to a single high tower location. The tower owner requires us to have an equipment and libility insurance . Anyone with knowledge or recommendations as to who to contact for such coverage and/or the pricing we may expect, please advise. Will appreciate your help Gene. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Help !
I am not in the repeater business, but am helping the local club on a one time deal. I have a set of duplexers indiviidually tuned but the harness needs replacing. Because this is a once only deal (I hope), I need about 15 to 20 feet of RG-142B/U or RG-400/U and we don't need more than this immediate need. Any one willing to give me a helping hand? Pls respond off-list to : [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Thanks for the help. Gene Ferguson - new call - W4FWG . Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Cool, thanks for the reply Kevin! That makes fascinating reading, what a great design. Cheers, Matt - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Hi Matt, Matt wrote: Hi Kevin, Just a quick question regarding your earlier email - I thought crystal oscillators were cleaner (as far as noise sidebands are concerned ) than PLL types. Actually it depends on the circuitry associated with crystal. While some better crystal controlled exciters can exhibit lower side-band noise levels than poorly designed PLL units, better PLL designs can offer a considerable improvement in signal spectral purity. Is this not the case in the GE Mastr II you mention below, as you indicate the PLL type of exciter is better? Is this particular to this design? Correct, please refer to this information presented by GE and Dave Karr on the subject: http://www.ka9fur.net/geduplex/duplex.html If you look at the curves for the highband multiplier exciter, then compare them to the PLL model, you'll see the difference. These are the second and third links under the Mastr II section of Dave's page. The multiplier exciter shows needing about 78 dB of noise reduction at 600 kHz, where the PLL model needs about 56 dB at that same spacing, or a difference of 22 dB less transmitter side-band noise reduction for the same performance. Don't get me wrong here Kevin- I'm not trying to poke holes in what you are suggesting, I just thought xtals would be cleaner? Actually, in the case of the GE Mastr II PLL exciter, the frequency determining element is still a quartz crystal located in a channel ICOM. The crystal frequency determines the operating frequency just like the multiplier exciter, however, there are elementary differences one needs to understand to see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner. In a typical Multiplier exciter, a quartz crystal is used as a reference to determine the operating frequency. In addition to being the frequency reference, the quartz crystal is also the signal generator in which the operating frequency is the direct result of multiplying the crystals fundamental frequency a particular number of times. In the GE Mastr II highband exciter, this number is 12. As a result of having but one oscillator, and the math, the frequency is not the only thing multiplied; but also all of the noise on either side of it. Sure, the Q or bandwidth of the tuned circuitry helps with the spectral purity, but since they aren't critically sharp (like in a tuned tube PA circuit) noise on either side of the carrier is amplified and multiplied as well as the operating carrier. Since most exciters of this era would operate over several hundred kHz without retuning, one can easily see that circuit Q isn't going to help much with making the signal cleaner. In the GE PLL exciter, a quartz crystal is also used as a reference for determining the operating frequency, but that's where the similarities end. In a Mastr II PLL exciter you have two oscillators, one is the crystal oscillator described earlier, and, in addition, a free running L-C tuned oscillator capable of producing frequencies directly on the desired operating frequency. You see, we now have an oscillator that operates directly on the high-band, at its fundamental frequency; NOT one that has been 'multiplied' up to it. The quartz derived oscillator is used to set the desired operating frequency by holding it still. This is done by 'locking' the frequency of the free running oscillator to the quartz derived oscillator. The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference, but, the output signal is much cleaner because it was not 'multiplied' up. Although there is more to it than this generalization, you now see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner than its multiplier counterpart. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Kevin Custer wrote: If you have a GE Mastr II two meter or highband repeater that has inadequate duplexer isolation, change out the exciter to a PLL type and take advantage of the 20+ dB less transmitter side-band noise. Another thing is to consider using a tube type PA deck, like the GE 4EF5A1, with a typical 'multiplier' exciter. This could allow power levels in excess of 200 watts or more without suffering from inadequate transmitter side-band noise suppression. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
Contact the ARRL and ask them about their insurance program. They've done this a few times and have a standard info package they send out. At 02:37 AM 12/19/04, you wrote: The local club is currently moving our repeter system, a linked three receiver site/one transmitter site to a single high tower location. The tower owner requires us to have an equipment and libility insurance . Anyone with knowledge or recommendations as to who to contact for such coverage and/or the pricing we may expect, please advise. Will appreciate your help Gene Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as to where everyone else charges from $15.00 to $20.00. Has anyone used them before and how are there xtals. Mathew - Original Message - From: Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek One of the reasons I always go to International Crystal Manufacturing Co, Inc. in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. http://www.icmfg.com 800-HAM-XTAL (800-426-9825) Hope this helps, Neil - WA6KLA Chuck Kelsey wrote: With all due respect, if the crystal manufacturer cannot make a crystal for a Mitrek with just the channel element part number, I'd seriously be looking for a different supplier. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: krmvsjr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Can anyone tell me details of crystal specifications for UHF mitrek. I am getting a T44JJA390DK and would like to replace the crystals for local frequencies. I would like to get confirmation that the crystals are 3rd overtone crystals - series resonant - 32pf capacity - (freq =10.7 / 9 for RX) I do not know the freq multiplication for TX crystal. There is a local crystal manufacturer who can supply xrystals if the operating parameters are specified. Can anywho has a the service manual make me a copy ? Venkat VU2KV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
I hope you need 5 crystals as they have an anti-ham $50 minimum order...I use West Crystal in Canada,take advantage of the currency exchange rate! Mathew Quaife wrote: What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as to where everyone else charges from $15.00 to $20.00. Has anyone used them before and how are there xtals. Mathew Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Five xtals right now would not be a problem, but what about quality? But does not the cost of shipping make up the difference going to Cnanada? Everytime I get something shipped from there it cost me an arm and a leg. Mathew I hope you need 5 crystals as they have an anti-ham $50 minimum order...I use West Crystal in Canada,take advantage of the currency exchange rate! Mathew Quaife wrote: What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as to where everyone else charges from $15.00 to $20.00. Has anyone used them before and how are there xtals. Mathew Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Question ... Will Bomar do a temperature run on your crystal oscillator module - change the temperature compensation components to enable the crystal to stay on frequency from winter to summer temperatures? Will Bomar guarantee it too? I will let you answer these questions. Sure, you can get by on cheap - maybe. Have you ever made a trip to an icy mountain top in the dead of winter to put a cheap crystal back on frequency? I think not. Neil McKie - WA6KLA Mathew Quaife wrote: What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as to where everyone else charges from $15.00 to $20.00. Has anyone used them before and how are there xtals. Mathew - Original Message - From: Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek One of the reasons I always go to International Crystal Manufacturing Co, Inc. in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. http://www.icmfg.com 800-HAM-XTAL (800-426-9825) Hope this helps, Neil - WA6KLA Chuck Kelsey wrote: With all due respect, if the crystal manufacturer cannot make a crystal for a Mitrek with just the channel element part number, I'd seriously be looking for a different supplier. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: krmvsjr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Can anyone tell me details of crystal specifications for UHF mitrek. I am getting a T44JJA390DK and would like to replace the crystals for local frequencies. I would like to get confirmation that the crystals are 3rd overtone crystals - series resonant - 32pf capacity - (freq =10.7 / 9 for RX) I do not know the freq multiplication for TX crystal. There is a local crystal manufacturer who can supply xrystals if the operating parameters are specified. Can anywho has a the service manual make me a copy ? Venkat VU2KV Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Well can't say that I have ever went to a Mountain top, no mountins in Indiana, (grin), but it's like the difference between AES and RandL buing a radio, nearly $100.00 to $200.00 difference on the price. One of the reason I ask what kind of quality they produce. Mathew Question ... Will Bomar do a temperature run on your crystal oscillator module - change the temperature compensation components to enable the crystal to stay on frequency from winter to summer temperatures? Will Bomar guarantee it too? I will let you answer these questions. Sure, you can get by on cheap - maybe. Have you ever made a trip to an icy mountain top in the dead of winter to put a cheap crystal back on frequency? I think not. Neil McKie - WA6KLA Mathew Quaife wrote: What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as to where everyone else charges from $15.00 to $20.00. Has anyone used them before and how are there xtals. Mathew - Original Message - From: Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek One of the reasons I always go to International Crystal Manufacturing Co, Inc. in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. http://www.icmfg.com 800-HAM-XTAL (800-426-9825) Hope this helps, Neil - WA6KLA Chuck Kelsey wrote: With all due respect, if the crystal manufacturer cannot make a crystal for a Mitrek with just the channel element part number, I'd seriously be looking for a different supplier. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: krmvsjr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Can anyone tell me details of crystal specifications for UHF mitrek. I am getting a T44JJA390DK and would like to replace the crystals for local frequencies. I would like to get confirmation that the crystals are 3rd overtone crystals - series resonant - 32pf capacity - (freq =10.7 / 9 for RX) I do not know the freq multiplication for TX crystal. There is a local crystal manufacturer who can supply xrystals if the operating parameters are specified. Can anywho has a the service manual make me a copy ? Venkat VU2KV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Have had good crystals from Bomar in the past and good crystals from West as well. I think they wound up to be about $14 shipped-check their webpage. Mathew Quaife wrote: Five xtals right now would not be a problem, but what about quality? But does not the cost of shipping make up the difference going to Cnanada? Everytime I get something shipped from there it cost me an arm and a leg. Mathew I hope you need 5 crystals as they have an anti-ham $50 minimum order...I use West Crystal in Canada,take advantage of the currency exchange rate! Mathew Quaife wrote: What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Well I can only relate my experience,worked for an RCC and used hundreds of their xtals and installed them in Icoms ourselves and had very few problems with temp comp.When we did,it was cured by replacing the Icom.The only company that truly does good element comp is ICM. Mathew Quaife wrote: Well can't say that I have ever went to a Mountain top, no mountins in Indiana, (grin), but it's like the difference between AES and RandL buing a radio, nearly $100.00 to $200.00 difference on the price. One of the reason I ask what kind of quality they produce. Mathew Question ... Will Bomar do a temperature run on your crystal oscillator module - change the temperature compensation components to enable the crystal to stay on frequency from winter to summer temperatures? Will Bomar guarantee it too? I will let you answer these questions. Sure, you can get by on cheap - maybe. Have you ever made a trip to an icy mountain top in the dead of winter to put a cheap crystal back on frequency? I think not. Neil McKie - WA6KLA Mathew Quaife wrote: What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as to where everyone else charges from $15.00 to $20.00. Has anyone used them before and how are there xtals. Mathew - Original Message - From: Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek One of the reasons I always go to International Crystal Manufacturing Co, Inc. in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. http://www.icmfg.com 800-HAM-XTAL (800-426-9825) Hope this helps, Neil - WA6KLA Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Hi Mike Thanks. Our frequencies are not same as US. We are confined to 434-438. So I cannot expect availability of crystals / channel elements in this range. Of course they may be useless in the US. The local manufacturer of crystals can supply me with whatever I need within 7 days and that too for a cost under $3 but I need to specify the parameters - that is less than what it will cost for mere postage from the US!!. I do not think any one in India has even seen a Mitrek. So it becomes important to be able to specify. Of course I can just blindly specify 3rd overtone crystal - series resonant and see what happens. Then I could alter parameters after I see what it does. Even if I have to waste a couple of crystals is no big deal compared to the hassle of ordering and getting the xtals from US. If I get hold of the manual including the schematics I can make a more intelligent guess looking on the channel element circuit diagram. There is a ham in Bangalore who used to work for Motorola and I hope he will be able to hunt out some information. I thought someone in the US has a clue!! Are there service manuals around - could one beg, borrow or steal one ? Thanks for your help. 73s Venkat VU2KV At 03:51 AM 19/12/2004, you wrote: I may be able to help, but it will take a day or two... While I make a couple of phone calls, Venkat what frequencies do you need? Maybe someone on this group has them in their box of elements left over from their amateur radio conversions. Of maybe someone has a leftover set of UHF commercial elements with good crystals that are near his frequency and can send them to Venkat. His supplier could take those crystals, plug them into a test circuit and determine the parameters by what loading is needed to pull the test crystals onto the indicated frequency. Mike WA6ILQ At 02:05 PM 12/18/04, you wrote: I glanced at the call and thought it was a Canadian one. Ooops. I forget that world wide web means just that. Too used to thinking there's just North Americans on the list for some foolish reason. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Paul Kelley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Me too, but we live in the U.S.! I suspect living in India gives one a very different perspective on that. I hope someone can help Venkat with the xtal info. (Maybe someone already has... I was only partially following the topic since I don't have the requested info.) Paul N1BUG On Saturday 18 December 2004 04:42 pm, Chuck Kelsey wrote: With all due respect, if the crystal manufacturer cannot make a crystal for a Mitrek with just the channel element part number, I'd seriously be looking for a different supplier. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: krmvsjr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Can anyone tell me details of crystal specifications for UHF mitrek. I am getting a T44JJA390DK and would like to replace the crystals for local frequencies. I would like to get confirmation that the crystals are 3rd overtone crystals - series resonant - 32pf capacity - (freq =10.7 / 9 for RX) I do not know the freq multiplication for TX crystal. There is a local crystal manufacturer who can supply xrystals if the operating parameters are specified. Can anywho has a the service manual make me a copy ? Venkat VU2KV Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
Yep, the requirement for qualification, as I recall, is club ARRL affiliation. Must have at least 51% of your club members be ARRL members to qualify for affiliation. The policy is underwritten by AIG, and is around half the premium elsewhere. At least that was our groups experience a while back. It took what seemed like forever to get the paperwork back from the League. mike -Original Message- From: Steve S. Bosshard (NU5D) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:01 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance ARRL Liability Insurance ssb Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Question on Mitrek
Bob, With all due respect, President Bush getting back into office has had nothing to do with the sale of your Motorola Mitrek. Remembering your post of October 10: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/message/43329 the only reason you didn't sell it is you asked way too much for it. When you ask an unfair price for something, you should expect not to sell it. $250.00 for a used Motorola Mitrek is simply outrageous. These commonly sell at larger hamfests (like Dayton) for $5 to $25. I have purchased them on eBay for under $25, and had under $50 in them delivered to my door. As far as using the PA section on your repeater, I wouldn't do that. The Mitrek PA is not known for its reliability in continuous repeater duty at 90% + of its rated power. Its a mobile, and should be used accordingly. My opinion; if you don't need the Mitrek because its just in your way, consider selling it for a fair price and put that money toward a real power amplifier for your repeater. Kevin Custer Bob wrote: Thanks for the reply well i did not know if it work or now,I been trying to sale or trade this mitrek but gess sence Bush got back in no one has any money. But i would trake it for a uhf fm amp that take 9 -14 watt input with up to 100 watts out,Dont need the mitrek just in my way.Make good door stop and paper weight tho...Bob/N2BR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 02:17 AM 12/19/2004 -, you wrote: I have a Motorola Mitrek UHF 110 Watt Mobile I plan to use the PA on my uhf repeaters radios, The Repeater is doing 9 watts output and was wanting to know if 9 watts will drive the PA ok or will the Transmitter need to be turn down on power to drive the PA without blowing the PA. ---Why would you want to do that? Aside from whether or not 9 watts is too much drive for it (which it is!), the Mitrek PA is not continuous duty. So why bother? Ken Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Source for custum made cables
Ray Retzlaff wrote: Kevin, Do you still recommend www.therfc.com ? I have been using them for years now and have never had any problems with them. The cables they make a excellent in quality and they ship very fast. Ray K6PNG I do... http://users.erols.com/rfc/index1.htm Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help !
Cecil Ferguson wrote: I am not in the repeater business, but am helping the local club on a one time deal. I have a set of duplexers indiviidually tuned but the harness needs replacing. Because this is a once only deal (I hope), I need about 15 to 20 feet of RG-142B/U or RG-400/U and we don't need more than this immediate need. Any one willing to give me a helping hand? Pls respond off-list to : [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Thanks for the help. Gene Ferguson - new call - W4FWG That cable can be purchased for a reasonable cost per foot from here: http://users.erols.com/rfc/index1.htm If you aren't too far from Pennsylvania, I'll offer to help with the cabling... Kevin Custer Friedens PA Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Neil McKie wrote: Question ... Will Bomar do a temperature run on your crystal oscillator module - change the temperature compensation components to enable the crystal to stay on frequency from winter to summer temperatures? Actually, yes they do. Will Bomar guarantee it too? Yes, they will. Repeater Builder has used Bomar for about 2 years now almost exclusively. They have provided very good service for us, at a price more reasonable compared to ICM. http://www.bomarcrystal.com/communication.htm Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Q wrote: The only company that truly does good element comp is ICM. Not True. Bomar does TC on user supplied ICOMs and Channel Elements. They charge $15 extra for this service over and above the price of the crystal. http://www.bomarcrystal.com/communication.htm Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Thanks,I didnt know that. Back in the days I used to order from them,they didnt! That $50 minimum rubs me the wrong way so I dont do any business with them. So ICM and Bomar are the only ones that do a true temp comp??? Seasons Greetings,73,Lee Kevin Custer wrote: Q wrote: The only company that truly does good element comp is ICM. Not True. Bomar does TC on user supplied ICOMs and Channel Elements. They charge $15 extra for this service over and above the price of the crystal. http://www.bomarcrystal.com/communication.htm Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Help !
Thank you Kevin. This is a good lead and the pricing far better than what I had been able to find on you own initative. We need more friendly groups like this one and helpful individuals like you. Thanks again.. Happy holidays to you and all. 73 Gene * Kevin Custer wrote: Cecil Ferguson wrote: I am not in the repeater business, but am helping the local club on a one time deal. I have a set of duplexers indiviidually tuned but the harness needs replacing. Because this is a once only deal (I hope), I need about 15 to 20 feet of RG-142B/U or RG-400/U and we don't need more than this immediate need. Any one willing to give me a helping hand? Pls respond off-list to : [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Thanks for the help. Gene Ferguson - new call - W4FWG That cable can be purchased for a reasonable cost per foot from here: http://users.erols.com/rfc/index1.htm If you aren't too far from Pennsylvania, I'll offer to help with the cabling... Kevin Custer Friedens PA Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystals, TC'ing and stuff
All, I use West Crystal in Canada,take advantage of the currency exchange rate! I inquired (on the phone) to West Crystal about their recrystaling of elements and ICOM's. I ask them if they do Temperature Compensation of the element, and after quite a while the engineer finally admitted they simply install the new crystal and Net it on frequency by changing the parallel capacitor to achieve on frequency in the center of the trimmer action. I'm not saying anyone should not use West Crystal for your needs, just beware that when they try to persuade you to send your element to them for recrystaling, it won't be TC'ed, but it will be on frequency. My point here is that Netting and TC'ing aren't the same thing... Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Bomar TC'ing elements and ICOMS
Kevin Custer wrote: Q wrote: The only company that truly does good element comp is ICM. Not True. Bomar does TC on user supplied ICOMs and Channel Elements. They charge $15 extra for this service over and above the price of the crystal. http://www.bomarcrystal.com/communication.htm Kevin Custer I thought I saved some information that came in a reply from Bomar's engineering department, here is that mail: - Original Message - From: "Kevin Custer" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 11:57 PM Subject: Channel element re-crystaling questions. Hi, I see you advertise the re-crystaling of popular channel elements for land mobile radios, and I have several questions. You state in your web advertisement that you have "CHANNEL ELEMENTS, TCXO'S ICOMS - Supplied to meet or exceed original manufacturer and FCC specifications." If I send you a '2C' ICOM for a GE Mastr II and have you re-crystal it, will it actually be 2 ppm over the temperature range of the element as stated by GE, or do you simply build the crystal and "net" it on frequency with no regard to the temperature compensation components? Does your statement mean you temperature compensate the ICOM or Channel Element to meet or exceed its original temperature specifications? Also, if this is the case, is it done for the stated price: "We will recrystal most elements for $25.00 each, 3 to 4 week delivery." Does the price of $25 include the ICOM or Channel Element or do you require the customer to send in their element for re-crystaling? We have had a recent bad stretch of luck with JAN in re-crystaling our own elements, and ICM simply charges too much for their services so we are looking for a suitable replacement company. Most of our crystal needs are for Amateur Radio conversions of Commercial equipment like the Micor, Mitrek, MVP, and Mastr II radio sets. My late father bought many crystals from your company a lot of years ago but had some trouble with them and eventually changed to JAN. I have no recent experience with Bomar but I am willing to give you a try. We don't buy a huge amount of crystals so I'm sorry to say I won't be a big volume buyer, but I'd appreciate knowing exactly what services you do provide and their costs. Thanks... Kevin Custer Repeater-Builder Dot Com Hi Reply: Kevin, We temperature compensate our channel elements. The $25 is if you supply the elements. Complete elements are $50. If I can be of further assistance please don't hesitate. David Miskov Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Q wrote: Thanks,I didnt know that. Back in the days I used to order from them,they didnt! That $50 minimum rubs me the wrong way so I dont do any business with them. So ICM and Bomar are the only ones that do a true temp comp??? Seasons Greetings,73,Lee I'm going to let a cat out of the bag, BUT, I don't want it to screw me. Scott and I buy crystals all the time from Bomar. Many times our order doesn't come up to the $50 minimum, but they allow us to place the order anyway; likely because we buy a good deal of crystals over a years time. I think if you plead with them, they'll 'give in' on the minimum, but, ymmv. Bomar, ICM, and one other company (that slips me right now) are the only three that I know of that actually TC's elements and ICOM's. I'll dig in the archives to see if I can come up with the other company Seasons Greeting to your and yours as well Lee. Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Mathew Quaife wrote: Well can't say that I have ever went to a Mountain top, no mountins in Indiana, (grin), True, I've been there once. Here, western US, we have mountains. I live in central Oregon - elevation here is about 3500' AMSL. I also live on a hill - the local repeater sites (2) are within 150 yards of my back door. (I own one of them.) but it's like the difference between AES and RandL buing a radio, nearly $100.00 to $200.00 difference on the price. One of the reason I ask what kind of quality they produce. I don't know who RandL is (never heard of them) but I do and have bought from AES in the past. One time a couple of years ago, I visited the local HRO store in the greater Portland Oregon area ... asked about a replacement microphone for my Kenwood TM741 ... 1, they didn't seem to have a clue where it could be found/did they have one ... 2, they didn't know what Kenwood microphone could be substituted from which model radio. While the HRO people were trying to figure out what to do next, I 'borrowed' a current QST Magazine from the pile on the counter top, looked up the AES 800 number. When the HRO people told me they couldn't help me, I went out to me truck, grabbed my cell phone and called AES' Squeak at the Las Vegas store and ordered the mic I needed. Over the years, I have discovered that are ham equipment stores that sell stuph ... then there is one store that can supply when the other(s) don't seem to have a clue. Similarly, in my opinion, there is one crystal manufacturer that I have totally relied on in excess of 35 years - International Crystal - and I have heard of others still in some sort of small rock business. Hope this helps ... my earlier comments below still apply. Neil McKie - WA6KLA Mathew Question ... Will Bomar do a temperature run on your crystal oscillator module - change the temperature compensation components to enable the crystal to stay on frequency from winter to summer temperatures? Will Bomar guarantee it too? I will let you answer these questions. Sure, you can get by on cheap - maybe. Have you ever made a trip to an icy mountain top in the dead of winter to put a cheap crystal back on frequency? I think not. Neil McKie - WA6KLA Mathew Quaife wrote: What about Bomar Crystals? They will manufacture crysals for $10.00 as to where everyone else charges from $15.00 to $20.00. Has anyone used them before and how are there xtals. Mathew - Original Message - From: Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek One of the reasons I always go to International Crystal Manufacturing Co, Inc. in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. http://www.icmfg.com 800-HAM-XTAL (800-426-9825) Hope this helps, Neil - WA6KLA Chuck Kelsey wrote: With all due respect, if the crystal manufacturer cannot make a crystal for a Mitrek with just the channel element part number, I'd seriously be looking for a different supplier. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: krmvsjr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Can anyone tell me details of crystal specifications for UHF mitrek. I am getting a T44JJA390DK and would like to replace the crystals for local frequencies. I would like to get confirmation that the crystals are 3rd overtone crystals - series resonant - 32pf capacity - (freq =10.7 / 9 for RX) I do not know the freq multiplication for TX crystal. There is a local crystal manufacturer who can supply xrystals if the operating parameters are specified. Can anywho has a the service manual make me a copy ? Venkat VU2KV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] GE Ferro-Resonant Transformer PS
Kevin: You may want to copy this for the repeater files. For those of you that would like to learn more about the technical details of a ferro-resonant transformer, Sola has a pdf format 3 page write up on them. http://www.sola-hevi-duty.com/products/powerconditioning/pdfs/opchars.pdf Fred W5VAY Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
One thing I have sadly discovered when dealing with the ARRL is if you e-mail them ... good luck on getting a reply any time in the current year - if ever. My best (and now only) route is to use the telephone. I have the ARRL main number in my cellular telephone: 860-594-0200 Sad but true. Neil McKie - WA6KLA ARRL Life Member for 30+ years ... Mike Perryman wrote: Yep, the requirement for qualification, as I recall, is club ARRL affiliation. Must have at least 51% of your club members be ARRL members to qualify for affiliation. The policy is underwritten by AIG, and is around half the premium elsewhere. At least that was our groups experience a while back. It took what seemed like forever to get the paperwork back from the League. mike -Original Message- From: Steve S. Bosshard (NU5D) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:01 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance ARRL Liability Insurance ssb Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Hi Wade, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band exciter. If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL exciter: http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30398n.pdf You will see under the "Description" the exciter utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock the VCO on frequency. It goes into more detail about this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the same manual. So, the FM ICOM's multiplication certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL exciter, and one can generalize it has the same frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter is produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well, and is also multiplied up to the desired deviation. Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag filter allows for near instantaneous correction of the VCO, changes in frequency at the audio rate are superimposed onto the output frequency. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Wade Lake wrote: Kevin Custer wrote: The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable than a multiplied crystal oscillator. because with a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and frequency error (usually deviation as well) is multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High band GE MASTR II. Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is good, I think you nailed it. I just wanted to point out that stability is a very strong point of the PLL. Since it operates on the desired frequency, no frequency error/drift is multiplied. Wade - KR7K Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
Sure sorry to hear of difficulties communicating with the league. I have had very good response from the VEC part both in speed and content. If you have trouble with HQ, maybe your Section Manager, or Assistant Division Director, or Division Director, or if all else fails, Jim Haynie up in Dallas might help. DE NU5D f -Original Message- From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:49 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance One thing I have sadly discovered when dealing with the ARRL is if you e-mail them ... good luck on getting a reply any time in the current year - if ever. My best (and now only) route is to use the telephone. I have the ARRL main number in my cellular telephone: 860-594-0200 Sad but true. Neil McKie - WA6KLA ARRL Life Member for 30+ years ... Mike Perryman wrote: Yep, the requirement for qualification, as I recall, is club ARRL affiliation. Must have at least 51% of your club members be ARRL members to qualify for affiliation. The policy is underwritten by AIG, and is around half the premium elsewhere. At least that was our groups experience a while back. It took what seemed like forever to get the paperwork back from the League. mike -Original Message- From: Steve S. Bosshard (NU5D) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:01 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance ARRL Liability Insurance ssb [Steve Bosshard (NU5D)] --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.813 / Virus Database: 553 - Release Date: 12/13/2004 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable than a multiplied crystal oscillator. because with a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and frequency error (usually deviation as well) is multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High band GE MASTR II. Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is good, I think you nailed it. I just wanted to point out that stability is a very strong point of the PLL. Since it operates on the desired frequency, no frequency error/drift is multiplied. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:53 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Cool, thanks for the reply Kevin! That makes fascinating reading, what a great design. Cheers, Matt - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:46 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Hi Matt, Matt wrote: Hi Kevin, Just a quick question regarding your earlier email - I thought crystal oscillators were cleaner (as far as noise sidebands are concerned ) than PLL types. Actually it depends on the circuitry associated with crystal. While some better crystal controlled exciters can exhibit lower side-band noise levels than poorly designed PLL units, better PLL designs can offer a considerable improvement in signal spectral purity. Is this not the case in the GE Mastr II you mention below, as you indicate the PLL type of exciter is better? Is this particular to this design? Correct, please refer to this information presented by GE and Dave Karr on the subject: http://www.ka9fur.net/geduplex/duplex.html If you look at the curves for the highband multiplier exciter, then compare them to the PLL model, you'll see the difference. These are the second and third links under the Mastr II section of Dave's page. The multiplier exciter shows needing about 78 dB of noise reduction at 600 kHz, where the PLL model needs about 56 dB at that same spacing, or a difference of 22 dB less transmitter side-band noise reduction for the same performance. Don't get me wrong here Kevin- I'm not trying to poke holes in what you are suggesting, I just thought xtals would be cleaner? Actually, in the case of the GE Mastr II PLL exciter, the frequency determining element is still a quartz crystal located in a channel ICOM. The crystal frequency determines the operating frequency just like the multiplier exciter, however, there are elementary differences one needs to understand to see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner. In a typical Multiplier exciter, a quartz crystal is used as a reference to determine the operating frequency. In addition to being the frequency reference, the quartz crystal is also the signal generator in which the operating frequency is the direct result of multiplying the crystals fundamental frequency a particular number of times. In the GE Mastr II highband exciter, this number is 12. As a result of having but one oscillator, and the math, the frequency is not the only thing multiplied; but also all of the noise on either side of it. Sure, the Q or bandwidth of the tuned circuitry helps with the spectral purity, but since they aren't critically sharp (like in a tuned tube PA circuit) noise on either side of the carrier is amplified and multiplied as well as the operating carrier. Since most exciters of this era would operate over several hundred kHz without retuning, one can easily see that circuit Q isn't going to help much with making the signal cleaner. In the GE PLL exciter, a quartz crystal is also used as a reference for determining the operating frequency, but that's where the similarities end. In a Mastr II PLL exciter you have two oscillators, one is the crystal oscillator described earlier, and, in addition, a free running L-C tuned oscillator capable of producing frequencies directly on the desired operating frequency. You see, we now have an oscillator that operates directly on the high-band, at its fundamental frequency; NOT one that has been 'multiplied' up to it. The quartz derived oscillator is used to set the desired operating frequency by holding it still. This is done by 'locking' the frequency of the free running oscillator to the quartz derived oscillator. The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference, but, the output signal is much cleaner because it was not 'multiplied' up. Although there is more to it than this generalization, you now see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner than its multiplier counterpart. Hope
[Repeater-Builder] Kenwood TK-620 programming
Anyone have programming instructions for the Kenwood TK-620 6 meter radio using the KDB210 software or where to find out additional information? Thanks Darryl Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
If you are getting crystals made in 7 days they are going to be green and they will move all over the place until they finish growing and then they stabilize themselves. They will also move off- frequency with temperature changes. Butch From: K. Venkataramanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:58:46 +0530 Hi Mike Thanks. Our frequencies are not same as US. We are confined to 434-438. So I cannot expect availability of crystals / channel elements in this range. Of course they may be useless in the US. The local manufacturer of crystals can supply me with whatever I need within 7 days and that too for a cost under $3 but I need to specify the parameters - that is less than what it will cost for mere postage from the US!!. I do not think any one in India has even seen a Mitrek. So it becomes important to be able to specify. Of course I can just blindly specify 3rd overtone crystal - series resonant and see what happens. Then I could alter parameters after I see what it does. Even if I have to waste a couple of crystals is no big deal compared to the hassle of ordering and getting the xtals from US. If I get hold of the manual including the schematics I can make a more intelligent guess looking on the channel element circuit diagram. There is a ham in Bangalore who used to work for Motorola and I hope he will be able to hunt out some information. I thought someone in the US has a clue!! Are there service manuals around - could one beg, borrow or steal one ? Thanks for your help. 73s Venkat VU2KV At 03:51 AM 19/12/2004, you wrote: I may be able to help, but it will take a day or two... While I make a couple of phone calls, Venkat what frequencies do you need? Maybe someone on this group has them in their box of elements left over from their amateur radio conversions. Of maybe someone has a leftover set of UHF commercial elements with good crystals that are near his frequency and can send them to Venkat. His supplier could take those crystals, plug them into a test circuit and determine the parameters by what loading is needed to pull the test crystals onto the indicated frequency. Mike WA6ILQ At 02:05 PM 12/18/04, you wrote: I glanced at the call and thought it was a Canadian one. Ooops. I forget that world wide web means just that. Too used to thinking there's just North Americans on the list for some foolish reason. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Paul Kelley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Me too, but we live in the U.S.! I suspect living in India gives one a very different perspective on that. I hope someone can help Venkat with the xtal info. (Maybe someone already has... I was only partially following the topic since I don't have the requested info.) Paul N1BUG On Saturday 18 December 2004 04:42 pm, Chuck Kelsey wrote: With all due respect, if the crystal manufacturer cannot make a crystal for a Mitrek with just the channel element part number, I'd seriously be looking for a different supplier. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: krmvsjr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek Can anyone tell me details of crystal specifications for UHF mitrek. I am getting a T44JJA390DK and would like to replace the crystals for local frequencies. I would like to get confirmation that the crystals are 3rd overtone crystals - series resonant - 32pf capacity - (freq =10.7 / 9 for RX) I do not know the freq multiplication for TX crystal. There is a local crystal manufacturer who can supply xrystals if the operating parameters are specified. Can anywho has a the service manual make me a copy ? Venkat VU2KV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise?
Hello All Here is a "crystal" question for the group. Do crystals vary in the amount of random phase noise produced in or by a typical crystal oscillator / FM modulator circuit as used in a typical repeater transmitter? Now, more to the issue. I have a series of repeaters that have more transmitted background audio hiss thanthe averageof other repeaters on the band. I have, in testing, dissabled all of the audio modulating circuitry up to the varicap diode without any change in transmitted noise . This leaves only the crystal and it's oscillator circuit as the culprit noise source---hence my question. Do crystals vary in produced FM (phase) noise. If the answer is yes, Which crystal manufactures make quiet crystals and just how does one insure that he gets this need across to a crystal supplier? Scott, N6NXI Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
Although I don't contact them often, when I did email them (ARRL) last winter regarding a license upgrade, someone got right back to me and we had a meaningful exchange of emails. No problem at all. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Steve Bosshard (NU5D) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Cc: 'AD5KZ' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:35 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance Sure sorry to hear of difficulties communicating with the league. I have had very good response from the VEC part both in speed and content. If you have trouble with HQ, maybe your Section Manager, or Assistant Division Director, or Division Director, or if all else fails, Jim Haynie up in Dallas might help. DE NU5D f Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
Good for you Chuck! Neil Chuck Kelsey wrote: Although I don't contact them often, when I did email them (ARRL) last winter regarding a license upgrade, someone got right back to me and we had a meaningful exchange of emails. No problem at all. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Steve Bosshard (NU5D) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Cc: 'AD5KZ' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 1:35 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance Sure sorry to hear of difficulties communicating with the league. I have had very good response from the VEC part both in speed and content. If you have trouble with HQ, maybe your Section Manager, or Assistant Division Director, or Division Director, or if all else fails, Jim Haynie up in Dallas might help. DE NU5D f Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise?
Here's something you can try. Put a rather high value resistor, say 100K, from mic high to ground and see if the hiss goes away. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Scott To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Cc: Scott Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:44 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise? Hello All Here is a "crystal" question for the group. Do crystals vary in the amount of random phase noise produced in or by a typical crystal oscillator / FM modulator circuit as used in a typical repeater transmitter? Now, more to the issue. I have a series of repeaters that have more transmitted background audio hiss thanthe averageof other repeaters on the band. I have, in testing, dissabled all of the audio modulating circuitry up to the varicap diode without any change in transmitted noise . This leaves only the crystal and it's oscillator circuit as the culprit noise source---hence my question. Do crystals vary in produced FM (phase) noise. If the answer is yes, Which crystal manufactures make quiet crystals and just how does one insure that he gets this need across to a crystal supplier? Scott, N6NXI Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
People need to remember that email is sometimes not a very reliable means of communication. Many times I've found email quarantined in my ISP's spam filter. I've also had times when the email just plain doesn't get through. It's easy to have something go wrong and have a computer hiccup, loose a bunch of messages due to a failing hard drive or for other network problems. Sometimes an email will end up on the wrong individuals computer or it could have been sent to an inaccurate email address. My point is that lots can happen out there in cyberspace - it's not a perfect solution to communicating. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance Good for you Chuck! Neil Chuck Kelsey wrote: Although I don't contact them often, when I did email them (ARRL) last winter regarding a license upgrade, someone got right back to me and we had a meaningful exchange of emails. No problem at all. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.
The following is not meant to upset anyones view on the Mastr II PLL exciter ... but ... A friend brought his hi-band Mastr II Station to me for tune up some months ago. It had a PLL exciter on board. We tuned, reset the VCO voltage according to the manual and finished the transmitter which is what he wanted. We tuned up the receiver, got the repeater operating, set frequencies, levels and he departed. Came back a coupe of weeks later complaining the PLL exciter was unstable - sometimes didn't have any output. So, we finally yanked the PLL exciter out, removed the ICOM and tossed the exciter board into a corner. Then I went into the back room and grabbed a brown handle Mastr II mobile, pulled the exciter board out, swapped the crystal from the PLL ICOM, stuck it into a 5C ICOM and installed the exciter into the equipment. Tuned it up and he left. That took care of that. Never did figure out what the problem was with the PLL exciter board. 73 and happy Motorola !!! Neil McKie - WA6KLA Kevin Custer wrote: Hi Matt, Matt wrote: Hi Kevin, Just a quick question regarding your earlier email - I thought crystal oscillators were cleaner (as far as noise sidebands are concerned ) than PLL types. Actually it depends on the circuitry associated with crystal. While some better crystal controlled exciters can exhibit lower side-band noise levels than poorly designed PLL units, better PLL designs can offer a considerable improvement in signal spectral purity. Is this not the case in the GE Mastr II you mention below, as you indicate the PLL type of exciter is better? Is this particular to this design? Correct, please refer to this information presented by GE and Dave Karr on the subject: http://www.ka9fur.net/geduplex/duplex.html If you look at the curves for the highband multiplier exciter, then compare them to the PLL model, you'll see the difference. These are the second and third links under the Mastr II section of Dave's page. The multiplier exciter shows needing about 78 dB of noise reduction at 600 kHz, where the PLL model needs about 56 dB at that same spacing, or a difference of 22 dB less transmitter side-band noise reduction for the same performance. Don't get me wrong here Kevin- I'm not trying to poke holes in what you are suggesting, I just thought xtals would be cleaner? Actually, in the case of the GE Mastr II PLL exciter, the frequency determining element is still a quartz crystal located in a channel ICOM. The crystal frequency determines the operating frequency just like the multiplier exciter, however, there are elementary differences one needs to understand to see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner. In a typical Multiplier exciter, a quartz crystal is used as a reference to determine the operating frequency. In addition to being the frequency reference, the quartz crystal is also the signal generator in which the operating frequency is the direct result of multiplying the crystals fundamental frequency a particular number of times. In the GE Mastr II highband exciter, this number is 12. As a result of having but one oscillator, and the math, the frequency is not the only thing multiplied; but also all of the noise on either side of it. Sure, the Q or bandwidth of the tuned circuitry helps with the spectral purity, but since they aren't critically sharp (like in a tuned tube PA circuit) noise on either side of the carrier is amplified and multiplied as well as the operating carrier. Since most exciters of this era would operate over several hundred kHz without retuning, one can easily see that circuit Q isn't going to help much with making the signal cleaner. In the GE PLL exciter, a quartz crystal is also used as a reference for determining the operating frequency, but that's where the similarities end. In a Mastr II PLL exciter you have two oscillators, one is the crystal oscillator described earlier, and, in addition, a free running L-C tuned oscillator capable of producing frequencies directly on the desired operating frequency. You see, we now have an oscillator that operates directly on the high-band, at its fundamental frequency; NOT one that has been 'multiplied' up to it. The quartz derived oscillator is used to set the desired operating frequency by holding it still. This is done by 'locking' the frequency of the free running oscillator to the quartz derived oscillator. The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference, but, the output signal is much cleaner because it was not 'multiplied' up. Although there is more to it than this generalization, you now see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner than its multiplier counterpart. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Kevin Custer wrote: If you have a GE Mastr II two meter or highband repeater that has
[Repeater-Builder] what am I doing wrong
I have a micor repeater 75watts out hooked to a gp9 by comet I am going to use a tmd700 for a frequency agile remote base the comet gp9 is a dual band antenna when I hook both the 700 and the micor to the antenna through a duplexer made by comet the 700 can't seem to transmit on anything but low power and no audio seems to be sent out under low power on the 700 so what am I doing wrong? Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Mitrek
Venkat; i think i have a copy of mitrek maual that is excess to our needs. $15 + postage as i recall it is in very good condx. also have mitrek tx channel elements not many rx i will look on monday and email you. i assume you need uhf manual. tnx Ted Bleiman k9mdm mdm radio ltd Ted Bleiman K9MDM MDM Radio Ltd - 1629-B N. 31 st Ave Melrose Park, IL 60160 708.681.0300 fax 708.681.9800 web http://www.mdmradio.com - Check it now!! Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today! Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
Cecil/Gene: We just went through this in the last couple of weeks when moving one of our repeaters. Not to start a flame war, but we saved a substantial amount of money by purchasing general liability insurance ($2M) from a local Safeco agent ($250/yr) as compared to the ARRL offering (much more/yr). And Safeco didn't even ask us how many members of the club were either ARRL members, or supported no-code licensing or BPL. As a side note, our club's substantial savings on this new policy were as a direct result of suggestions offered by Kevin Custer, the owner of this very list. As a way of saying thanks to Kevin for his untiring efforts to keep the Repeater Builder's empire together and running for the benefit of ALL of us, we are going donate at least half the money we saved to him. (Most of the rest is going to eggnog and brandy - yea Christmas!) Happy holidays to all, and don't forget that without YOUR financial support, Repeater Builder will cease to exist. 73 de John .. - Original Message - From: Cecil Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 3:37 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance The local club is currently moving our repeter system, a linked three receiver site/one transmitter site to a single high tower location. The tower owner requires us to have an equipment and libility insurance . Anyone with knowledge or recommendations as to who to contact for such coverage and/or the pricing we may expect, please advise. Will appreciate your help Gene. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance
Hello ... Yes, I have had pretty good luck with e-mail in almost every situation ... there are however, times where e-mail just disappears. No trace, no bounce ... no nothing. Most of these instances have been to personal sites - home computers and the like. Once in a while, an e-mail to a company will go astray ... that is once in a while. My earlier experience with the ARRL, no one ever answered; period. Phone calls seem to be more reliable. At least I know if I got a disconnected number ... Neil Chuck Kelsey wrote: People need to remember that email is sometimes not a very reliable means of communication. Many times I've found email quarantined in my ISP's spam filter. I've also had times when the email just plain doesn't get through. It's easy to have something go wrong and have a computer hiccup, loose a bunch of messages due to a failing hard drive or for other network problems. Sometimes an email will end up on the wrong individuals computer or it could have been sent to an inaccurate email address. My point is that lots can happen out there in cyberspace - it's not a perfect solution to communicating. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Insurance Good for you Chuck! Neil Chuck Kelsey wrote: Although I don't contact them often, when I did email them (ARRL) last winter regarding a license upgrade, someone got right back to me and we had a meaningful exchange of emails. No problem at all. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Kenwood TK-620 programming
The kpg21d software is what I use for the TK-620. I'm unsure of what you mean by kdb210 stuff. Regards, Barry --- dvickn4ome [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyone have programming instructions for the Kenwood TK-620 6 meter radio using the KDB210 software or where to find out additional information? Thanks Darryl Yahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
I standcorrected, in part anyway. In this GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12 from the output. This is why I said "usually", I am not familiar with theintricate detailsof all radios. Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for quite a few years. I will leave the GE's to otherslike you who are more familiar with their inner workings. However, even in this particular radio, I noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original ICOM freq as the PLL reference. This is madeobvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output of the VCO. So even though the PLL circuit here is not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a factor of 4. This does not appy to deviation in this case but it will most definately apply to frequency drift. My 2 and a half cents worth. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Hi Wade,I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band exciter. If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL exciter:http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30398n.pdf You will see under the "Description" the exciter utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock the VCO on frequency. It goes into more detail about this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the same manual. So, the FM ICOM's multiplication certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL exciter, and one can generalize it has the same frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter is produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well, and is also multiplied up to the desired deviation. Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag filter allows for near instantaneous correction of the VCO, changes in frequency at the audio rate are superimposed onto the output frequency.Hope this helps...Kevin CusterWade Lake wrote: Kevin Custer wrote: The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable than a multiplied crystal oscillator. because with a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and frequency error (usually deviation as well) is multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High band GE MASTR II. Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is good, I think you nailed it. I just wanted to point out that stability is a very strong point of the PLL. Since it operates on the desired frequency, no frequency error/drift is multiplied. Wade - KR7K Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Actually the same applies to the Deviation, at the fundamental Icom output it should be 4 times less "wide" than the output deviation. In this particular case. Wade - Original Message - From: Wade Lake To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. I standcorrected, in part anyway. In this GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12 from the output. This is why I said "usually", I am not familiar with theintricate detailsof all radios. Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for quite a few years. I will leave the GE's to otherslike you who are more familiar with their inner workings. However, even in this particular radio, I noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original ICOM freq as the PLL reference. This is madeobvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output of the VCO. So even though the PLL circuit here is not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a factor of 4. This does not appy to deviation in this case but it will most definately apply to frequency drift. My 2 and a half cents worth. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Hi Wade,I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band exciter. If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL exciter:http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30398n.pdf You will see under the "Description" the exciter utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock the VCO on frequency. It goes into more detail about this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the same manual. So, the FM ICOM's multiplication certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL exciter, and one can generalize it has the same frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter is produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well, and is also multiplied up to the desired deviation. Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag filter allows for near instantaneous correction of the VCO, changes in frequency at the audio rate are superimposed onto the output frequency.Hope this helps...Kevin CusterWade Lake wrote: Kevin Custer wrote: The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable than a multiplied crystal oscillator. because with a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and frequency error (usually deviation as well) is multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High band GE MASTR II. Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is good, I think you nailed it. I just wanted to point out that stability is a very strong point of the PLL. Since it operates on the desired frequency, no frequency error/drift is multiplied. Wade - KR7K Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Bomar TC'ing elements and ICOMS
Ok-- Let's ask a few burning questions regarding ham repeaters on 10m-70cm: 1. How much short term frequency instability is tolerable over 0-70 degrees C? 2. With regard to long term frequency stability, How often do you check and/or calibrate the repeater's transmitter and receiver's frequency? My answers: 1. +/- 500hz on 70cm, 250hz on 2m, and 100hz on 6m. 2. Once every 6-12 months. When the repeater is not within +/- 700hz, its time to make a trip to the site and recalibrate it. If this is happening sooner than 6 months, then the element tempco is sub-par. What about the rest of you? These criteria determines what crystal manufacturer to use. Steve WA6ZFT On Sunday 19 December 2004 07:08, Kevin Custer wrote: Kevin Custer wrote: Q wrote: The only company that truly does good element comp is ICM. Not True. Bomar does TC on user supplied ICOMs and Channel Elements. They charge $15 extra for this service over and above the price of the crystal. http://www.bomarcrystal.com/communication.htm Kevin Custer I thought I saved some information that came in a reply from Bomar's engineering department, here is that mail: - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 11:57 PM Subject: Channel element re-crystaling questions. Hi, I see you advertise the re-crystaling of popular channel elements for land mobile radios, and I have several questions. You state in your web advertisement that you have CHANNEL ELEMENTS, TCXO'S ICOMS - Supplied to meet or exceed original manufacturer and FCC specifications. If I send you a '2C' ICOM for a GE Mastr II and have you re-crystal it, will it actually be 2 ppm over the temperature range of the element as stated by GE, or do you simply build the crystal and net it on frequency with no regard to the temperature compensation components? Does your statement mean you temperature compensate the ICOM or Channel Element to meet or exceed its original temperature specifications? Also, if this is the case, is it done for the stated price: We will recrystal most elements for $25.00 each, 3 to 4 week delivery. Does the price of $25 include the ICOM or Channel Element or do you require the customer to send in their element for re-crystaling? We have had a recent bad stretch of luck with JAN in re-crystaling our own elements, and ICM simply charges too much for their services so we are looking for a suitable replacement company. Most of our crystal needs are for Amateur Radio conversions of Commercial equipment like the Micor, Mitrek, MVP, and Mastr II radio sets. My late father bought many crystals from your company a lot of years ago but had some trouble with them and eventually changed to JAN. I have no recent experience with Bomar but I am willing to give you a try. We don't buy a huge amount of crystals so I'm sorry to say I won't be a big volume buyer, but I'd appreciate knowing exactly what services you do provide and their costs. Thanks... Kevin Custer Repeater-Builder Dot Com Hi Reply: Kevin, We temperature compensate our channel elements. The $25 is if you supply the elements. Complete elements are $50. If I can be of further assistance please don't hesitate. David Miskov Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Bomar TC'ing elements and ICOMS
At 02:34 PM 12/19/2004 -0800, you wrote: 2. Once every 6-12 months. When the repeater is not within +/- 700hz, its time to make a trip to the site and recalibrate it. If this is happening sooner than 6 months, then the element tempco is sub-par. Many folks say I'm crazy but I've used Cal Crystal for probably close to 20 years. Occasionally there may be a problem but that is the exception. One of my repeaters (UHF) has been operational for over 25 years, using Cal xtals. It's xmt frequency varies, *maybe* by +/- 500 hundred cycles and I haven't had to touch it in at least 2 years. Ken (I think Cal is vastly underrated) -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.
Neil McKie wrote: The following is not meant to upset anyones view on the Mastr II PLL exciter ... but ... A friend brought his hi-band Mastr II Station to me for tune up some months ago. It had a PLL exciter on board. We tuned, reset the VCO voltage according to the manual and finished the transmitter which is what he wanted. We tuned up the receiver, got the repeater operating, set frequencies, levels and he departed. Came back a coupe of weeks later complaining the PLL exciter was unstable - sometimes didn't have any output. So, we finally yanked the PLL exciter out, removed the ICOM and tossed the exciter board into a corner. Then I went into the back room and grabbed a brown handle Mastr II mobile, pulled the exciter board out, swapped the crystal from the PLL ICOM, stuck it into a 5C ICOM and installed the exciter into the equipment. Tuned it up and he left. That took care of that. Never did figure out what the problem was with the PLL exciter board. What frequency did you tune the exciter to? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.
I had a similar problem with the PLL exciter. Did some research and the GE manual has info on aluminum vs ferrite coils for the VCO voltage set. The high split VHF exciter uses an aluminum core and the lower split VHF uses a ferrite core. Get a ferrite core or replace the coil with ferrite core coil and problem solved. Jeff KB3HF -Original Message- From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:20 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service. The following is not meant to upset anyones view on the Mastr II PLL exciter ... but ... A friend brought his hi-band Mastr II Station to me for tune up some months ago. It had a PLL exciter on board. We tuned, reset the VCO voltage according to the manual and finished the transmitter which is what he wanted. We tuned up the receiver, got the repeater operating, set frequencies, levels and he departed. Came back a coupe of weeks later complaining the PLL exciter was unstable - sometimes didn't have any output. So, we finally yanked the PLL exciter out, removed the ICOM and tossed the exciter board into a corner. Then I went into the back room and grabbed a brown handle Mastr II mobile, pulled the exciter board out, swapped the crystal from the PLL ICOM, stuck it into a 5C ICOM and installed the exciter into the equipment. Tuned it up and he left. That took care of that. Never did figure out what the problem was with the PLL exciter board. 73 and happy Motorola !!! Neil McKie - WA6KLA Kevin Custer wrote: Hi Matt, Matt wrote: Hi Kevin, Just a quick question regarding your earlier email - I thought crystal oscillators were cleaner (as far as noise sidebands are concerned ) than PLL types. Actually it depends on the circuitry associated with crystal. While some better crystal controlled exciters can exhibit lower side-band noise levels than poorly designed PLL units, better PLL designs can offer a considerable improvement in signal spectral purity. Is this not the case in the GE Mastr II you mention below, as you indicate the PLL type of exciter is better? Is this particular to this design? Correct, please refer to this information presented by GE and Dave Karr on the subject: http://www.ka9fur.net/geduplex/duplex.html If you look at the curves for the highband multiplier exciter, then compare them to the PLL model, you'll see the difference. These are the second and third links under the Mastr II section of Dave's page. The multiplier exciter shows needing about 78 dB of noise reduction at 600 kHz, where the PLL model needs about 56 dB at that same spacing, or a difference of 22 dB less transmitter side-band noise reduction for the same performance. Don't get me wrong here Kevin- I'm not trying to poke holes in what you are suggesting, I just thought xtals would be cleaner? Actually, in the case of the GE Mastr II PLL exciter, the frequency determining element is still a quartz crystal located in a channel ICOM. The crystal frequency determines the operating frequency just like the multiplier exciter, however, there are elementary differences one needs to understand to see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner. In a typical Multiplier exciter, a quartz crystal is used as a reference to determine the operating frequency. In addition to being the frequency reference, the quartz crystal is also the signal generator in which the operating frequency is the direct result of multiplying the crystals fundamental frequency a particular number of times. In the GE Mastr II highband exciter, this number is 12. As a result of having but one oscillator, and the math, the frequency is not the only thing multiplied; but also all of the noise on either side of it. Sure, the Q or bandwidth of the tuned circuitry helps with the spectral purity, but since they aren't critically sharp (like in a tuned tube PA circuit) noise on either side of the carrier is amplified and multiplied as well as the operating carrier. Since most exciters of this era would operate over several hundred kHz without retuning, one can easily see that circuit Q isn't going to help much with making the signal cleaner. In the GE PLL exciter, a quartz crystal is also used as a reference for determining the operating frequency, but that's where the similarities end. In a Mastr II PLL exciter you have two oscillators, one is the crystal oscillator described earlier, and, in addition, a free running L-C tuned oscillator capable of producing frequencies directly on the desired operating frequency. You see, we now have an oscillator that operates directly on the high-band, at its fundamental frequency; NOT one that has been 'multiplied' up to it. The quartz derived oscillator is used to
RE: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.
Also if you tuned the exciter down from the commercial band to the ham band, did you change the VCO loop filter values per the manual? Joe At 03:21 PM 12/19/2004 -0600, you wrote: I had a similar problem with the PLL exciter. Did some research and the GE manual has info on aluminum vs ferrite coils for the VCO voltage set. The high split VHF exciter uses an aluminum core and the lower split VHF uses a ferrite core. Get a ferrite core or replace the coil with ferrite core coil and problem solved. Jeff KB3HF -Original Message- From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:20 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service. The following is not meant to upset anyones view on the Mastr II PLL exciter ... but ... A friend brought his hi-band Mastr II Station to me for tune up some months ago. It had a PLL exciter on board. We tuned, reset the VCO voltage according to the manual and finished the transmitter which is what he wanted. We tuned up the receiver, got the repeater operating, set frequencies, levels and he departed. Came back a coupe of weeks later complaining the PLL exciter was unstable - sometimes didn't have any output. So, we finally yanked the PLL exciter out, removed the ICOM and tossed the exciter board into a corner. Then I went into the back room and grabbed a brown handle Mastr II mobile, pulled the exciter board out, swapped the crystal from the PLL ICOM, stuck it into a 5C ICOM and installed the exciter into the equipment. Tuned it up and he left. That took care of that. Never did figure out what the problem was with the PLL exciter board. 73 and happy Motorola !!! Neil McKie - WA6KLA Kevin Custer wrote: Hi Matt, Matt wrote: Hi Kevin, Just a quick question regarding your earlier email - I thought crystal oscillators were cleaner (as far as noise sidebands are concerned ) than PLL types. Actually it depends on the circuitry associated with crystal. While some better crystal controlled exciters can exhibit lower side-band noise levels than poorly designed PLL units, better PLL designs can offer a considerable improvement in signal spectral purity. Is this not the case in the GE Mastr II you mention below, as you indicate the PLL type of exciter is better? Is this particular to this design? Correct, please refer to this information presented by GE and Dave Karr on the subject: http://www.ka9fur.net/geduplex/duplex.html If you look at the curves for the highband multiplier exciter, then compare them to the PLL model, you'll see the difference. These are the second and third links under the Mastr II section of Dave's page. The multiplier exciter shows needing about 78 dB of noise reduction at 600 kHz, where the PLL model needs about 56 dB at that same spacing, or a difference of 22 dB less transmitter side-band noise reduction for the same performance. Don't get me wrong here Kevin- I'm not trying to poke holes in what you are suggesting, I just thought xtals would be cleaner? Actually, in the case of the GE Mastr II PLL exciter, the frequency determining element is still a quartz crystal located in a channel ICOM. The crystal frequency determines the operating frequency just like the multiplier exciter, however, there are elementary differences one needs to understand to see why the PLL exciter is spectrally cleaner. In a typical Multiplier exciter, a quartz crystal is used as a reference to determine the operating frequency. In addition to being the frequency reference, the quartz crystal is also the signal generator in which the operating frequency is the direct result of multiplying the crystals fundamental frequency a particular number of times. In the GE Mastr II highband exciter, this number is 12. As a result of having but one oscillator, and the math, the frequency is not the only thing multiplied; but also all of the noise on either side of it. Sure, the Q or bandwidth of the tuned circuitry helps with the spectral purity, but since they aren't critically sharp (like in a tuned tube PA circuit) noise on either side of the carrier is amplified and multiplied as well as the operating carrier. Since most exciters of this era would operate over several hundred kHz without retuning, one can easily see that circuit Q isn't going to help much with making the signal cleaner. In the GE PLL exciter, a quartz crystal is also used as a reference for determining the operating frequency, but that's where the similarities end. In a Mastr II PLL exciter you have two oscillators, one is the crystal oscillator described earlier, and, in addition, a free running L-C tuned oscillator capable of producing frequencies directly on the desired operating frequency.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Wade, If the PLL reference from the crystal is X3, and the VCO sample has been divided by 4, what is the product of 3 times 4? The answer is 12. If the transmitter was any more stable in frequency than the reference, shouldn't one think the stated frequency stability would be better than 2 PPM or 5 PPM, which is the stability of the ICOM itself? Many times the manual states the VCO is locked to the 12th multiple of the ICOM. This means the output of the GE PLL exciter will have the stability of the ICOM, times 12, period. Kevin Custer Wade Lake wrote: I standcorrected, in part anyway. In this GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12 from the output. This is why I said "usually", I am not familiar with theintricate detailsof all radios. Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for quite a few years. I will leave the GE's to otherslike you who are more familiar with their inner workings. However, even in this particular radio, I noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original ICOM freq as the PLL reference. This is madeobvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output of the VCO. So even though the PLL circuit here is not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a factor of 4. This does not appy to deviation in this case but it will most definately apply to frequency drift. My 2 and a half cents worth. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Hi Wade, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band exciter. If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL exciter: http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30398n.pdf You will see under the "Description" the exciter utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock the VCO on frequency. It goes into more detail about this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the same manual. So, the FM ICOM's multiplication certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL exciter, and one can generalize it has the same frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter is produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well, and is also multiplied up to the desired deviation. Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag filter allows for near instantaneous correction of the VCO, changes in frequency at the audio rate are superimposed onto the output frequency. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Wade Lake wrote: Kevin Custer wrote: The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable than a multiplied crystal oscillator. because with a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and frequency error (usually deviation as well) is multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High band GE MASTR II. Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is good, I think you nailed it. I just wanted to point out that stability is a very strong point of the PLL. Since it operates on the desired frequency, no frequency error/drift is multiplied. Wade - KR7K Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Again Wade, not true. If what you are stating was true, the ICOM would have to swing + and - 1/4 of the final deviation of 5 kc, or 1.25 kHz. Do you know how hard it is to swing a crystal 1.25 kilohertz *at its operating frequency* of approximately 12 Mhz? It would be nearly impossible to build a modulator that would fit in that little tin can and be reasonably linear and symmetric. The modulation in a GE Mastr II PLL highband exciter is a result of a X12 multiplication of the ICOM, which results in the crystal actually varying approximately 417 cycles from the center carrier. Kevin Custer Wade Lake wrote: Actually the same applies to the Deviation, at the fundamental Icom output it should be 4 times less "wide" than the output deviation. In this particular case. Wade - Original Message - From: Wade Lake To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. I standcorrected, in part anyway. In this GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12 from the output. This is why I said "usually", I am not familiar with theintricate detailsof all radios. Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for quite a few years. I will leave the GE's to otherslike you who are more familiar with their inner workings. However, even in this particular radio, I noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original ICOM freq as the PLL reference. This is madeobvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output of the VCO. So even though the PLL circuit here is not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a factor of 4. This does not appy to deviation in this case but it will most definately apply to frequency drift. My 2 and a half cents worth. Wade - KR7K - Original Message - From: Kevin Custer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service. Hi Wade, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band exciter. If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL exciter: http://www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30398n.pdf You will see under the "Description" the exciter utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock the VCO on frequency. It goes into more detail about this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the same manual. So, the FM ICOM's multiplication certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL exciter, and one can generalize it has the same frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. In addition, the modulation of the PLL exciter is produced in the crystal reference (FM ICOM) as well, and is also multiplied up to the desired deviation. Since the time constant of the Lead/Lag filter allows for near instantaneous correction of the VCO, changes in frequency at the audio rate are superimposed onto the output frequency. Hope this helps... Kevin Custer Wade Lake wrote: Kevin Custer wrote: The advantage here is the same frequency stability is achieved by the use of the quartz reference Actually, a PLL oscillator is much more stable than a multiplied crystal oscillator. because with a multiplied quartz oscillator, frequency drift and frequency error (usually deviation as well) is multiplied by 12, at least in the case of the High band GE MASTR II. Not to dissagree with you Kevin, your answer is good, I think you nailed it. I just wanted to point out that stability is a very strong point of the PLL. Since it operates on the desired frequency, no frequency error/drift is multiplied. Wade - KR7K Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.
That was several months ago. I don'd remember what frequency we did tune it to ... although I'd want to believe it was the operating channel frequency. After changing the exciter away from the PLL to the crystal/ICOM version, it worked. Neil Kevin Custer wrote: Neil McKie wrote: The following is not meant to upset anyones view on the Mastr II PLL exciter ... but ... A friend brought his hi-band Mastr II Station to me for tune up some months ago. It had a PLL exciter on board. We tuned, reset the VCO voltage according to the manual and finished the transmitter which is what he wanted. We tuned up the receiver, got the repeater operating, set frequencies, levels and he departed. Came back a coupe of weeks later complaining the PLL exciter was unstable - sometimes didn't have any output. So, we finally yanked the PLL exciter out, removed the ICOM and tossed the exciter board into a corner. Then I went into the back room and grabbed a brown handle Mastr II mobile, pulled the exciter board out, swapped the crystal from the PLL ICOM, stuck it into a 5C ICOM and installed the exciter into the equipment. Tuned it up and he left. That took care of that. Never did figure out what the problem was with the PLL exciter board. What frequency did you tune the exciter to? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.
I am currently running the MASTR-II PLL exciter on 146.640 MHz. I am running the G2 version and have never been able to find a ferrite core to replace the aluminum one. It is alot easier to tune than the multiplier board. Still I can only get the tune test point voltage to 3.6 volts and that is with the slug removed from the form. Recently had a problem where it was being ghost keyed with a voltage that would creep up to 1.2 volts on the TX osc line to the exciter. This was traced to a bad PNP transistor in the station control module, which was replaced with a radio shack MPS2907. On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:39:19 -0800, Neil McKie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That was several months ago. I don'd remember what frequency we did tune it to ... although I'd want to believe it was the operating channel frequency. After changing the exciter away from the PLL to the crystal/ICOM version, it worked. Neil Kevin Custer wrote: Neil McKie wrote: The following is not meant to upset anyones view on the Mastr II PLL exciter ... but ... A friend brought his hi-band Mastr II Station to me for tune up some months ago. It had a PLL exciter on board. We tuned, reset the VCO voltage according to the manual and finished the transmitter which is what he wanted. We tuned up the receiver, got the repeater operating, set frequencies, levels and he departed. Came back a coupe of weeks later complaining the PLL exciter was unstable - sometimes didn't have any output. So, we finally yanked the PLL exciter out, removed the ICOM and tossed the exciter board into a corner. Then I went into the back room and grabbed a brown handle Mastr II mobile, pulled the exciter board out, swapped the crystal from the PLL ICOM, stuck it into a 5C ICOM and installed the exciter into the equipment. Tuned it up and he left. That took care of that. Never did figure out what the problem was with the PLL exciter board. What frequency did you tune the exciter to? Kevin Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise?
OR its the PLL in your receiver that you are using to listen to the hiss??? Just a thought... Matt - Original Message - From: Scott To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Cc: Scott Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 7:44 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise? Hello All Here is a "crystal" question for the group. Do crystals vary in the amount of random phase noise produced in or by a typical crystal oscillator / FM modulator circuit as used in a typical repeater transmitter? Now, more to the issue. I have a series of repeaters that have more transmitted background audio hiss thanthe averageof other repeaters on the band. I have, in testing, dissabled all of the audio modulating circuitry up to the varicap diode without any change in transmitted noise . This leaves only the crystal and it's oscillator circuit as the culprit noise source---hence my question. Do crystals vary in produced FM (phase) noise. If the answer is yes, Which crystal manufactures make quiet crystals and just how does one insure that he gets this need across to a crystal supplier? Scott, N6NXI Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
Neil McKie wrote: That was several months ago. I don'd remember what frequency we did tune it to ... although I'd want to believe it was the operating channel frequency. After changing the exciter away from the PLL to the crystal/ICOM version, it worked. What I was wondering was if you had tuned the exciter to somewhere other than its intended frequency range like maybe the lower part of the ham band with a 148 to 174 exciter. For reliable lock in the two meter band (assuming a high-split exciter) you need to either replace the plug-in band-pass filter with the low-split version, or modify it with the correct parts, and change the core used in the VCO coil (L101). The coil in the high-split (most common commercial unit) uses an aluminum slug, where the low-split uses a ferrite slug that pulls the resonance lower than the aluminum one will. Kevin Custer Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
