Re: re[2]: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr

[JOHN MACKEY]

Hi Michael-

Last time you & I talked (about 3 months ago) you said you were running
amateur grade gear on your IRLP node at the KOIN-TV tower.  Apparently you
recently changed to commercial grade gear, which is a good thing! Also, the
last time you & I talked you REFUSED the suggestion of using cavity filters on
your transmittes because it would prevent you from being frequency agile. 
Apparently you decided to change this also?
Those are good moves, Michael.  Those actions will go a long way to resolving
the interference problems that have been associated with your IRLP node. 
Perhaps, that is all that was needed!

But I really think you should re-check your deviation reports.  The repeaters
in this area are not running 6 KHz deviation.  Good amateur practice for
practically all voice repeaters is about 4.5 KHz deviation or no more than 5
Khz MAX.  Your suggestion of 6 KHz deviation is roughly 20-25% over.  On the
other hand, that is far better than the 9 KHz deviation for your system (as
checked by "Dalcomm") as you stated in your previous e-mail to me a few months
ago.  I have attached that e-mail immediately below.

-- Original Message --
>Received: 03 September 2004
>From: "mbloom0947" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Dear John,  Thank you for your response. Actually, we did use a radio
>communications company called Dalcomm Communications, who are very
>experienced in this sort of thing and quite well equipped. I checked >back
with them and learned that the PEAK deviation (not the average) was >9 KHz. Of
course the average deviation would depend upon an integration >of the signal
over time and would be dependent upon the nature of the >source audio. I do
appreciate your offer to do the measurements and >acknowledge that you have
made this kind offer in the past.  The reason >I chose to use Dalcomm was that
I wanted the measurements to be made by >an independent company with no
preconceived notions whose only interest >is to provide accurate result. 
Sincerely  Michael Bloom W7RAT  


-- Original Message --
Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:55:31 PM CST
From: "mbloom0947" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Since I am the "guy running the IRLP node" you refer to, I thought I 
> might take a moment to reply.
>  
> The equipment now consists solely of Motorola GM300's, not amateur 
> grade equipment.   For the last six months or more both the 2m and 
> 440 transmitters have had large cavity filters in place.  I believe 
> you may still be thinking of the original experimental equipment used 
> for proof of concept.   The 2m cavity is a Sinclair 10" diameter 
> unit.  As for the deviation I have measured it with a Motorola Model 
> 2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same as other repeaters in 
> this area.  The node can be heard 100 miles away in some directions 
> by mobiles and those same mobiles running 75 watts, about the same as 
> the node transmitter output, can be heard as well.   As for the 
> frequency, I'm running a SIMPLEX node on a SIMPLEX frequency.
>  
> I just thought I'd bring you up to date and suggest that you check 
> your facts next time.  
>  
> Sincerely,
> Michael Bloom W7RAT
 






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Ralph Mowery]

--- Coy Hilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> 
> Well, you should get it right. It has never been a
> first class 
> Technicians license... Or ony class TECHNICIANS
> LICENSE. We who had 
> to take the exams to get them knoww what they
> are/were. I still give 
> exams for the General Radiotelephone License
> (GROL)from time to 
> time. 
> They were the First Class Radiotelephone License, Or
>  Second Class 
> Radiotelephone License.
> Oh By the way...Element Three which was the element
> required for the 
> Second Class license,(Element Three and Four was
> required for the 
> First)was a serious test of your knowledge of
> electronic theory.
> 73
> AC0Y

The tests were a joke,  I passed the first class
comercial (all elements on one morinig) when I was
about 21 years old. That was around 1971 or so . 
Study guide was a book that was given to me by a
friend that was about 10 years old.  I had never seen
a TV transmitter and would not know what to do with
one if I did.  I thought I wanted to get into
servicing 2-way radio but never did.  The First Class
test was about a dollar more to take it if I remember
correctly. That extra buck was the only reason I took
the first class.  Well, it was about an hours drive to
whre I had to go to take the test.
I don't know how they are now but if they are like the
ham exams then anyone that has half a memory could
pass them.  

de KU4PT





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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Fw: The 4 candles (this is nice)

[Neil McKie]

  Took about 9 1/2 seconds to load ...

  Neil





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio

[Neil McKie]

  FYI ... 

  In case you need some info on the ER41 receivers ... I have a 
 2 inch high pile of GE Datafile ER41 Series Receiver info here. 

  73, 

  Happy Bah Hum Bug, 

  Neil - WA6KLA 


Mathew Quaife wrote:
> 
> Took the audio from the HI side of the audio pot on the MASTR ER41 
> receiver.
> 
> Mathew
> 
> >
> > At 11:00 PM 12/21/2004 -, you wrote:
> > >Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little
> > >more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it.  Seems
> > >like certain users voices are very tinny sounding.  Any thoughts.
> >
> >
> > <---Are you running deemphasis? Sounds like you're using a
> non-deemphasized
> > audio source from your receiver (aka discriminator audio)
> >
> > Ken
> > --
> 
> > President and CTO - Arcom Communications
> > Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories.
> > http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html
> > We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages!
> > AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
> > http://www.irlp.net
> >
> >
> >





 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Coy Hilton]

First..Don't be so thin skined, that's where political correctness 
came from. This group can be brutal from time to time, but there's 
some great help, and a wealth of experiance and knowledge here and 
everyone here has gotten nailed from the group and has lived through 
it.SO lighten up.
73
AC0Y


--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 
2 
> way &
> > currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast 
> field and
> > possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC 
1st 
> class
> > licensed ham" is!!
> > 
> It was about 2 am here when I wrote this last night but
> If you are the Chief Engineer of a radio station then you should 
> know that anyone prior to 1984 a person had to hold a first class 
> FCC technicians license to work on and repair and operate a radio 
or 
> TV station. The 1st class and 2nd class were combined in the late 
> 1980s to a general class technicians license and made a lifetime 
> license, not to be confused with the technician class ham license. 
> The fact that the two of us hold an extra class and the other an 
> advanced class ham ticket was not explained but I assumed that it 
> would be understood. That is not the problem, its the repeater 
> intermod. 
> This reply is the reason that I hate to post to a group such as 
this.







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Fw: The 4 candles (this is nice)

[Maire Company]

Title: Message






 

 
To: Friend 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 6:04 PM
Subject: The 4 candles (this is nice)


 
I received this and loved it.
 
Merry 
Christmas
    
and
    
Happy New Year


 









 


  


  

This is worth the wait 
for it to load.  Have a Great day.


- Original 





  
  

  
  Give it a few minutes 
  to load in!
  
   
  
  http://i.euniverse.com/funpages/cms_content/2529/4candles.swf 


 













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio

[Mathew Quaife]

Took the audio from the HI side of the audio pot on the MASTR ER41 receiver.

Mathew



>
> At 11:00 PM 12/21/2004 -, you wrote:
> >Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little
> >more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it.  Seems
> >like certain users voices are very tinny sounding.  Any thoughts.
>
>
> <---Are you running deemphasis? Sounds like you're using a
non-deemphasized
> audio source from your receiver (aka discriminator audio)
>
> Ken
> --

> President and CTO - Arcom Communications
> Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories.
> http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html
> We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages!
> AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
> http://www.irlp.net
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio

[Ken Arck]

At 11:00 PM 12/21/2004 -, you wrote:
>Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little 
>more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it.  Seems 
>like certain users voices are very tinny sounding.  Any thoughts.


<---Are you running deemphasis? Sounds like you're using a non-deemphasized
audio source from your receiver (aka discriminator audio)

Ken
--
President and CTO - Arcom Communications
Makers of state-of-the-art repeater controllers and accessories.
http://www.ah6le.net/arcom/index.html
We now offer complete Kenwood TKR repeater packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
http://www.irlp.net




 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr

[mch]

6 kHz?!? I hope you're not on a 15 kHz band with a bandwidth of 18 kHz.

Joe M.

mbloom0947 wrote:
> 
> As for the deviation I have measured it with a Motorola Model
> 2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same as other repeaters in
> this area.



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Re: re[2]: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr

[Barry Thompson]

I guess the callsign explains it all.

--- mbloom0947 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> John,
>  
> Since I am the "guy running the IRLP node" you
> refer to, I thought I 
> might take a moment to reply.
>  
> The equipment now consists solely of Motorola
> GM300's, not amateur 
> grade equipment.   For the last six months or
> more both the 2m and 
> 440 transmitters have had large cavity filters
> in place.  I believe 
> you may still be thinking of the original
> experimental equipment used 
> for proof of concept.   The 2m cavity is a
> Sinclair 10" diameter 
> unit.  As for the deviation I have measured it
> with a Motorola Model 
> 2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same
> as other repeaters in 
> this area.  The node can be heard 100 miles
> away in some directions 
> by mobiles and those same mobiles running 75
> watts, about the same as 
> the node transmitter output, can be heard as
> well.   As for the 
> frequency, I'm running a SIMPLEX node on a
> SIMPLEX frequency.
>  
> I just thought I'd bring you up to date and
> suggest that you check 
> your facts next time.  
>  
> Sincerely,
> Michael Bloom W7RAT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/
> 
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 




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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Non standard CTCSS tones in Amateur service

[mch]

It's legal in any service. There is no requirement access by by any
particular set of tones. Any CTCSS tone, DCS code, or any other code
(such as LTR, MDC-1200, or anything) is perfectly legal.

Non-standard tones are even part of most commercial repeater
controllers. They almost all support the 'expanded standard' of 50 CTCSS
tones, but I know some users who aren't even using one of those.

Sure, using a tone not standard on ham rigs would be a security
enhancement. Some people even use tones above 2000 Hz for links.

Joe M.

Ronny Julian wrote:
> 
> I know a repeater that required a tone not implemented in the standard
> 38 would not make a it too popular but is it legal?  I was wondering if
> a pair of these on a rcv link would discorage interference.
> 
> http://www.com-spec.com/ts64.htm
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.2 - Release Date: 12/20/2004



-- 
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[Repeater-Builder] Tin Sound Audio

[w9mwq]

Is there a way to make the audio coming into the repeater a little 
more basey, like would adding say a 47 Ohm resister do it.  Seems 
like certain users voices are very tinny sounding.  Any thoughts.

Mathew








 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: CW IDer

[skipp025]

Boyd's 1P controller will fit the bill quite nice, 
plus it will give you a measure of dtmf controll 
if you want. 

http://www.bdenterprises.com/products/ 

skipp

> "K.Paul Boggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensive
> CW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not  ashamed
> to let others know who is responsible) Need  a source and
> recommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any reader
> has one for sale.
>   Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have it
> reprogrammed
> Thanks
> 
> 
> K.Paul Boggs
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Mountain Emergency Communications







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

It sure is - a mess, that is. Repeated offers to the guy to offer help with
a Service Monitor, etc. have gone rejected. He's using a ham dual-bander
mobile radio at a high-level site, and some of the garbage noise has caused
one of the main local 2-Meter Portland Repeaters to kerchunk continually
whenever the IRLP or Echolink (or whatever it's called) "system" keys up.
It's also tied up one of the main local 2-Meter simplex channels that was
normally designated for many years as a "Remote Base to Remote Base"
channel.

What some people won't do just to be a "Repeater Owner".

LJ



Original Message:
-
From: JOHN MACKEY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:12:06 -0600
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem 
frompager transmitters



Sounds like a similar problem here in Portland, Oregon.

We have a guy running an IRLP node here on what is commonly thought of as 2
meter simplex frequencies.  The station is on a broadcast tower with high
elevation running about 375 watts ERP!!!  Mobiles 100 miles away can clearly
hear the IRLP node!!  The IRLP node is made from amateur grade RF
equipement &
has had SEVERAL problems with causing interference with the inputs of other
repeaters in the area.  Attempting to talk to the owner & suggesting he put
sharp cavity filters on the transmitter resulted in his reply of "then I
wouldn't be able to be frequency agile". 

Meanwhile, his deviation has been measured at +/- 9 KHz, and he argues that
there is nothing wrong because a telecom service agency measured & set his
deviation.

-- Original Message --
Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:23:57 AM CST
From: "Jim B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem 
from
pager transmitters

> 
> Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't 
> really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around 
> here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations.
> And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without 
> cavites anyway.
> -- 
> Jim Barbour
> WD8CHL
> 
> 
> Joe wrote:
> 
> > You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters 
> > lately.  As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of 
> > loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at
each 
> > site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there.  What some
companies 
> > are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing 
> > multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they
were

> > all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.)  When they multi-frequency a 
> > transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the
transmitter 
> > output.  This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet
now

> > have noise problems.  The irony of it is that you see paging
transmitters

> > leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only
to

> > find that the nose increases tenfold.
> > 
> > 73, Joe, K1ike
> > 
> > At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
> > 
> >>All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities
> >>and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at
> >>any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for
> >>that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business.
> >>The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away,
> >>and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back
> >>into the general pool in a few years, or less.
> >>There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore.
> >>--
> >>Jim Barbour
> >>WD8CHL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Non standard CTCSS tones in Amateur service

[Ronny Julian]

I know a repeater that required a tone not implemented in the standard 
38 would not make a it too popular but is it legal?  I was wondering if 
a pair of these on a rcv link would discorage interference.

http://www.com-spec.com/ts64.htm







 
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re[2]: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager tr

[mbloom0947]

John,
 
Since I am the "guy running the IRLP node" you refer to, I thought I 
might take a moment to reply.
 
The equipment now consists solely of Motorola GM300's, not amateur 
grade equipment.   For the last six months or more both the 2m and 
440 transmitters have had large cavity filters in place.  I believe 
you may still be thinking of the original experimental equipment used 
for proof of concept.   The 2m cavity is a Sinclair 10" diameter 
unit.  As for the deviation I have measured it with a Motorola Model 
2600 service monitor at 6 KHz, about the same as other repeaters in 
this area.  The node can be heard 100 miles away in some directions 
by mobiles and those same mobiles running 75 watts, about the same as 
the node transmitter output, can be heard as well.   As for the 
frequency, I'm running a SIMPLEX node on a SIMPLEX frequency.
 
I just thought I'd bring you up to date and suggest that you check 
your facts next time.  
 
Sincerely,
Michael Bloom W7RAT











 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . .

[Chuck Kelsey]

Yes they do.

Chuck
WB2EDV




- Original Message - 
From: "mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . .


> 
> 
> Sinclair makes excellent dipoles. We switched to them several years ago
> and never looked back.
> 
> http://www.sinctech.com/
> 
> Mike
> K6MJU
> 
> 
>>
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> One of the repeaters I help maintain (145.170 located in
>> Connellsville, PA on the mountain) recently lost an antenna in the
>> wind storms that hit us around the beginning of December.
>>
>> Antenna we had on the tower was a Celwave PD340-3 (If you have never
>> seen a 4 bay folded dipole with the top 3/4 of the antenna flapping
>> in the wind, trust me you don't want to. . . Saw the darn thing in
>> the middle of the wind storm blowing straight out side ways from the
>> tower holding on by the harness. . . )
>>
>> Past experience with trying to find a "new" replacement shows that
>> Celwave doesn't make this model anymore. (Last summer replacing the
>> antenna on 147.045 for W3PIE)
>>
>> Along the lines of the 4 Bay folded dipole arrays what does anyone
>> recommend? (Familiar with the DB224E antenna)  Anyone making these
>> with an internal harness instead of an external harness? (Weather in
>> SW PA is not user friendly especially when putting the antennas on
>> the top of a mountain)
>>
>> If this has been covered in the list prior I apologize, have not had
>> time to look in the archives so if covered prior give me a rough idea
>> of when so I can look.
>>
>> Otherwise, reply on the list or direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would
>> be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Tony, KA3VOR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] CW IDer

[Anthony Ferguson/KB4ZGO]

I'm not sure if you got this email from me or not so sending it again.
 
Try this .. see if may help you.  http://www.krell.com/amateur/RSSVR/RSSVR.html "K.Paul Boggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensiveCW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not ashamedto let others know who is responsible) Need a source andrecommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any readerhas one for sale.Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have itreprogrammedThanksK.Paul Boggs[EMAIL PROTECTED]Mountain Emergency CommunicationsYahoo! Groups Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
		Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.













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RE: [Repeater-Builder] CW IDer

[Paul Finch]

Paul,

Comm Spec has a great little one I have used several times in the past. Go
to
 http://www.com-spec.com/id8.htm and check them out.

Paul



-Original Message-
From: K.Paul Boggs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:27 PM
To: repeater
Cc: Repeater-Builder
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] CW IDer



Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensive
CW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not  ashamed
to let others know who is responsible) Need  a source and
recommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any reader
has one for sale.
  Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have it
reprogrammed
Thanks


K.Paul Boggs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mountain Emergency Communications








Yahoo! Groups Links














 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola GM300 Power-up Question

[Ricardo Trujillo]

Michael, 
The GM 300, if I recall correctly, has a small fuse in the main board,
towards one of the back corners.  Looks like a resistor (green, I
think). Your RIB probably blew this fuse.
Best, 
Ricardo, W3/HK4BHA

-Original Message-
From: mbloom0947 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:10 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola GM300 Power-up Question





Subject:  Motorola GM300 Model M34GMC29C3A UHF 16-channel Radio

The radio was powering on and off ok using front panel volume control-
switch.  When I plugged a Motorola RIB into it for programming the 
power blinked off and I can't turn it on.   Any suggestions?

Michael W7RAT










 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 










 
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[Repeater-Builder] CW IDer

[K.Paul Boggs]

Need some direction and advice. Need a inexpensive
CW ID device to put on a GMRS repeater(not  ashamed
to let others know who is responsible) Need  a source and
recommendation. Willing to purchase a used one if any reader
has one for sale.
  Have one now, but impossible to identify maker to have it
reprogrammed
Thanks


K.Paul Boggs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mountain Emergency Communications







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: Advice on Business Band repeater

[skipp025]

Hi John, 

> "KI4AWK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My questions:  
> What kind of cost am I looking at for a repeater pair license?

A no nonsense license runs about $350 to $550 complete, 
depending on what you want.

> Does each user need a separate license? cost per user?

No, each user can operate under the main license if set 
up properly. Other people can also use your repeater 
under the right type of license. 

> Can I do the research and find a frequency pair 
> myself, or do I have to go through a coordinator? 
> (if so, what does that cost?)

Coordination is probably required. You can suggest a 
frequency pair to your license ap person or have them 
research one for you. 

> (We live in a rural area, Thomasville, GA. Finding a 
> pair should not be hard. I am hoping for a pair in 
> the 460 band, as I have a very nice mastr II for that band.)
> I have been monitoring a specific frequency, and did research 
> through the FCC website on it for users in my area.
> What else should I do to get started?
> John Clark - KI4AWK 

If you don't sneeze at the license amount I mention 
above, you can Email me off the group and I'll tell 
you who to contact. 
 
It's not rocket science if you're willing to play 
the game as its currently set up. 

cheers
skipp 

skipp025 at yahoo.com 
www.radiowrench.com 







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Digest Number 2865

[Neil McKie]

  I don't know about the present, at one time in the Dallas - 
 Ft. Worth Texas area, there were two FM broad cast stations 5 MHz 
 apart ... apparently the amateur community was using a 5.2 MHz 
 spread on the 440 MHz band. 

  If someone in Texas could bring this up to date ... 

  Neil - WA6KLA 

Al Wolfe wrote:
> 
> Ken,
>   This can happen when any two transmitters are transmitting at the 
> same time, 600 khz apart. I've seen it happen to 2 meter repeaters 
> when two uhf transmitters 600 khz apart are transmitting nearby 
> when the 2 meter system was up. I've seen it happen near two AM 
> broadcast stations 600 khz apart.
>   That's primarily why in Illinois the six meter repeaters don't use 
> one mhz spacing as there is a high power AM station in Chicago on 
> one mhz.
>   There doesn't need to be any simple harmonic relationship between 
> any of the frequencies involved. I've been told by the experts that 
> this is imposible, that they must be related, but have seen too many 
> first-hand examples that would prove otherwise.
>   Cirulators and isolators can help if installed properly but any 
> rusty or loose bolt or dissimilar metal joint near any of the 
> antennas can cause the problem. It's avery tough situation to deal 
> with, however, as others have said, VHF paging is slowly going away
> 
> Good luck,
> Al, K9SI
> 
>Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:35:35 -
>From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager 
> transmitters
> 
> We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked
> great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone
> company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters
> near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is
> virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the
> difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the
> problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to
> an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia
> won't even consider that as an option.
> 
> 
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . .

[mike]

Sinclair makes excellent dipoles. We switched to them several years ago
and never looked back.

http://www.sinctech.com/

Mike
K6MJU


>
>
> OK.
>
> One of the repeaters I help maintain (145.170 located in
> Connellsville, PA on the mountain) recently lost an antenna in the
> wind storms that hit us around the beginning of December.
>
> Antenna we had on the tower was a Celwave PD340-3 (If you have never
> seen a 4 bay folded dipole with the top 3/4 of the antenna flapping
> in the wind, trust me you don't want to. . . Saw the darn thing in
> the middle of the wind storm blowing straight out side ways from the
> tower holding on by the harness. . . )
>
> Past experience with trying to find a "new" replacement shows that
> Celwave doesn't make this model anymore. (Last summer replacing the
> antenna on 147.045 for W3PIE)
>
> Along the lines of the 4 Bay folded dipole arrays what does anyone
> recommend? (Familiar with the DB224E antenna)  Anyone making these
> with an internal harness instead of an external harness? (Weather in
> SW PA is not user friendly especially when putting the antennas on
> the top of a mountain)
>
> If this has been covered in the list prior I apologize, have not had
> time to look in the archives so if covered prior give me a rough idea
> of when so I can look.
>
> Otherwise, reply on the list or direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would
> be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Tony, KA3VOR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Digest Number 2865

[Al Wolfe]

Ken,
This can happen when any two transmitters are transmitting at the same 
time, 600 khz apart. I've seen it happen to 2 meter repeaters when two uhf 
transmitters 600 khz apart are transmitting nearby when the 2 meter system 
was up. I've seen it happen near two AM broadcast stations 600 khz apart. 
That's primarily why in Illinois the six meter repeaters don't use one mhz 
spacing as there is a high power AM station in Chicago on one mhz.
There doesn't need to be any simple harmonic relationship between any of 
the frequencies involved. I've been told by the experts that this is 
imposible, that they must be related, but have seen too many first-hand 
examples that would prove otherwise.
Cirulators and isolators can help if installed properly but any rusty or 
loose bolt or dissimilar metal joint near any of the antennas can cause the 
problem. It's avery tough situation to deal with, however, as others have 
said, VHF paging is slowly going away

Good luck,
Al, K9SI


   Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 04:35:35 -
   From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters



We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked
great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone
company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters
near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is
virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the
difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the
problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to
an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia
won't even consider that as an option.

 





 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Help in selecting 2 bay antenna

[Richard Ranta]

Seasons greetings to you all!

Our club is in the process of moving its repeater and we're going to go with
a new antenna. The problem is, the company who owns the tower has a brand
new Decibels products A711 antenna. "Will this work on the frequency of
145.230Mhz?"
I hope I'm not asking a question that has just been asked.

Hope you all have great CHRISTMAS

Richard Ranta K8JX

   /\___/\
  > <
 >^   ^  <
 >   )_o_(   < "I love Samoyed Rescue- Save a Sammy !!"
  > U   <
Visit Blaze's "Forever Home" http://www.foreverhomesamoyed.org

   "Want an exciting hobby?"
   visit  http://www.W8USA.ORG

"A good teacher will try to convince a poor student that they are better
than they think they are, in order to give them confidence to do better. A
bad teacher only recognizes a poor student."



 





 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Help in selecting 2 bay antenna

[Richard Ranta]

Seasons greetings to you all!

Our club is in the process of moving its repeater and we're going to go with
a new antenna. The problem is, the company who owns the tower has a brand
new Decibels products A711 antenna. "Will this work on the frequency of
145.230Mhz?"
I hope I'm not asking a question that has just been asked.

Hope you all have great CHRISTMAS

Richard Ranta K8JX

   /\___/\
  > <
 >^   ^  <
 >   )_o_(   < "I love Samoyed Rescue- Save a Sammy !!"
  > U   <
Visit Blaze's "Forever Home" http://www.foreverhomesamoyed.org

   "Want an exciting hobby?"
   visit  http://www.W8USA.ORG

"A good teacher will try to convince a poor student that they are better
than they think they are, in order to give them confidence to do better. A
bad teacher only recognizes a poor student."



 





 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: Motorola GM300 Power-up Question

[skipp025]

Pins on the rear of the radio connector can be set with 
software for various functions. You must have these pins 
set up for the proper repeater rib connections or you 
take a chance on blowing a fuse (link) inside the radio. 

If the radio doesn't power up after you remove the rib,
you've got trouble inside the radio. 

cheers,
skipp 

> "mbloom0947" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Subject:  Motorola GM300 Model M34GMC29C3A UHF 16-channel Radio
> 
> The radio was powering on and off ok using front panel volume
control-
> switch.  When I plugged a Motorola RIB into it for programming the 
> power blinked off and I can't turn it on.   Any suggestions?
> 
> Michael W7RAT







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[mch]

Well said. It doesn't take a finely tuned sense of humor to see that my
comment was meant to be funny. If you (as in anyone) didn't get it
immediately, the ;-> should have given it away that I wasn't being
serious. As for my credentials, I am not a professional comedian, so I
can't help you there. I wasn't even voted class clown in high school. I
guess I'm not qualified to make a joke in your eyes. I do have my Extra
Class ham license, just to prove that I was not demeaning hams. I also
have several other licenses, but they really aren't relevant to my post.

Oh, and John, if 'most of us' knew what he meant, why do you think he
deserves such consideration and John M. and I don't? Maybe MOST of us
knew my post was a joke, and you are the one in the minority.

Joe M.

kc4ih wrote:
> 
> Thank you John! Those replies are the very reason people hesitate
> posting to groups such as this. I missed only 2 questions on the
> 1st class test and none on my advanced ham test. I don't think I
> have to prove my credentials before posting but there they are. I
> appreciate  everyones input, even the "Yahoo group police".
> Ken
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "WD7F - John in Tucson"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think that most of us knew what he meant.
> >
> > Everybody just loves a wise ass, as if it's not intimidating
> enough to get
> > on this reflector and ask a question.  I'm really surprised that
> you two
> > don't have all of your glorious credentials listed in your
> signature at the
> > end of your postings so that we would know how great you are.
> >
> > de WD7F
> > John in Tucson
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "mch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 11:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod
> problem from
> > pager transmitters
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe it's like a "Grade A Ham"? ;->
> >
> > Joe M.
> >
> > JOHN MACKEY wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial
> 2 way &
> > > currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast
> field and
> > > possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC
> 1st class
> > > licensed ham" is!!
> > >
> > > -- Original Message --
> > > Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
> > > From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams



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[Repeater-Builder] Intermod problem from pager transmitters

[skipp025]

>"kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After much head scratching I believe that the 
> difference in frequency of the pager transmitter 
> of 600 khz is the problem 

Head scratching doesn't provide real answers. Are 
the paging transmitters running circulators? Are 
they licensed for the rated power (you'd be surprised 
how many are way over their licensed power). 

> but have no idea how to solve the problem without 
> going to an odd split. The repeater coordinator 
> for this area of Virginia won't even consider that 
> as an option.

Simple Install and use a parallel aux receiver until 
you actually track down the problem(s). Unless you 
cause a problem elsewhere, the coordinator can 
pound sand. 

> The transmitter and receiver on the repeater are 
> both Motorola Micor 

Are you using a preamplifier? GasFet or Bi-polar 
in the receiver section. 

> We are running a set of Wacom cavities which were 
> bought new and are correctly tuned and the antenna 
> is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. 

Have you checked the entire system as of late? Reflected 
power from the Antenna and the Duplexer. Older antennas
can be problematic. Duplexer plungers do pit and 
require checking. 

Try a simple DC grounded antenna, mounted low with 
known good reflected power (low SWR). Does the problem 
go away? 

> When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH 
> pagers transmitting at the same time. If only one 
> pager is transmitting there is no problem. 

You will need to find where the mix occurs, location 
wise. The hardest part of the job... 

> This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are 
> in the 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc 
> apart. These transmitter are both 250 watts or 
> more output.

Got Circulator?  or do they have circulators? 

> My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 
> pagers) is mixing with the output of the repeater 
> 146.64 and producing the 146.04 
> signal, the repeater input frequency.

Possible, but not in stone.  Never assume a theory 
until you've first done the homework. 

> We are using sub-audible tone for repeater access and 
> as soon as a station working the repeater drops carrier 
> the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the 
> machine once the tone is removed.  

You're lucky, there are cases where the intermod 
can hold up the repeater for some time. Lovely 
to hear at 3:30 am when you forget to turn the 
volume down on the radio in the other room. 

> This may be happening in the antenna or hardline 
> connectors prior to the cavities. Every test I have 
> run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion.

Or your receiver, or someone else's receiver - transmitter 
- power amplifier - antenna.  The only thing you can first 
do is make sure it's not caused by/within your own 
equipment.  

> We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen 
> victim of this problem and in every case we have found 
> two pager transmitters situated 600 kc apart near the 
> repeater. Most of the other machines have been taken 
> off the air, others just put up with it. No one has been 
> able to solve the problem and many technicians have 
> studied it.

Anyone actually tried anything?  

> The searches I have done on Google has turned up 
> the stock answer of helical resonators which would 
> apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters.

You might try a High Q Notch Cavity (or cavities) in 
the repeater antenna system set to notch at F-center 
of the two paging transmitter frequencies. 

> If you are familiar with the Micor equipment you 
> know that the receiver has excellent helical 
> resonators built in.

Which can go right out the window if you're running 
some type of receiver preamp. (the wrong way). 

After checking your own system first, you need to open 
a dialog with the paging companies' technical people 
after you first verify they are allowed to run 1/4kw. 

> Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? 
> Any input (pun intended) on this matter would be appreciated.
> Ken Sturgill, KC4IH
> Marion VA
> please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 

Get a note book, start writing down what you have and 
what you can find out about the paging transmitters. 

Do they have Circulators?  Do you?  Does the mix 
go away when your repeater transmitter is terminated 
into a load.  What type coax jumpers are you using? 
Does the mix happen on a different antenna? Is your 
antenna dc grounded? 

Has the duplexer been checked for Reflected power 
and proper adjustment?  A nearby lightning strike  
can damage the duplexer - receiver - antenna, 
yadda...  yadda. These are all things you need to 
know.  You can bet the noise floor of the hill top 
can't be great with 500 watts of paging nearby. 

Write down everything... keeping track of covered 
ground. We'll be here to comment when you get back 
to us with your progress. 

Good luck

cheers,
skipp 

skipp025 at yahoo.com 
www.radiowrench.com/sonic 







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater

[mch]

A farm is a business. If it's a family farm, the entire family can be
considered employees. Besides, it doesn't take much to get a business
license. There are even public safety entities on the biz band (FDs and
EMS services are considered businesses, too). 

The main cost will be for coordination. You will have to contact PCIA
for a coordinated pair. The actual license fee is by comparison small.

Joe M.

> Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote:
> 
> Are you eligible under part 90 to hold a license in the Business Radio
> Service, ie, 90.75 a 1, statement of eligibility?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> From: KI4AWK [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:55 AM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater
> 
> 
> 
> I am a ham who is contemplating building a business-band repeater. I
> have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours
> of reading and searching.
> 
> · [Steve Bosshard (NU5D)]
> 
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> 
>* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> 
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> 
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> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

At 09:19 AM 12/21/04, "Mike Perryman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>This was a very historic facility steeped in AM lore..

Yep.
The tower site is a local landmark, just off of Interstate 5, a
few miles from Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm.

KFI  moved its transmitter location from downtown Los Angeles
to the current site in the 1930's. At that time they used two 400
foot towers until the 750 foot tower was constructed in about
1948.

The tower was a half-wave antenna, which can handle the full
50 KW.   The present aux tower of about 200 feet can handle
about 25 KW but is said to be running at 5 KW to comply with
the FCC and ANSI requirements - with workers within the complex.

News reports said:

1) The guy wires were all replaced earlier this year.
2) The entire 750 foot tower was repainted just a couple of years ago.
3) the Cessna 182 hit the 10 foot tall lightning rod with the center
of the right wing.  Six feet higher and it would have completely missed.
4) It happened just before 10AM on a bright sunny day so
visibility was not an issue, and the sun would have been
from above (i.e. he wasn't flying right into the rising sun).
5) Temperatures were in the high 60s / low 70s.

KFI Tower "tour" - http://www.qsl.net/ad7db/kfi.html

My dad told me that when he was in England in WW2 that
he strung a 120' long wire between two trees at an airfield
outside London and heard it just fine on a Hallicrafters SX-28.

Here's an aerial photo that in the lower left corner shows just
how close the tower site is to the Interstate 5, the frontage
road, and some industrial buildings.
The big circle near the warehouse is the gravel ring around
the main tower, the small circle on the left is the ring around
the aux tower. The transmitter buildings are in the top left
corner of the property.



The pilot was supposedly on his downwind leg and WAY
too far out of the established landing pattern and WAY too
low - one local pilot mentioned on another newsgroup:

 > Except when landing and taking off, fixed wing aircraft must
 > maintian 1000 feet above the nearest object with a 2000 foot
 > horizontal radius.
 > However the aircraft was landing at Fullerton airport so that
 > does not apply.

FYI Fullerton is a local community airport several miles away
on the east.

 > The top of the KFI tower is at 820 feet above sea level according
 > to my LA sectional chart and Fullerton airport is at 96 feet above
 > sea level.
 > The tower is far enough away from the airport that you would really
 > have to try to be down low enough to hit the tower.  I have flown
 > into and out of Fullerton many times and it's just not really much
 > of an issue.
 > Short answer is that the pilot did something stupid and got caught -
 > the hard way.
 > 73 Jim Walls - K6CCC

Another comment was that avoiding KFI's tower was zero trouble if
you had normal situational awareness that any pilot-in-command
has to have anyway.  And since it's been there since before 90
percent of the pilots that are flying were born, and before the airport
was built, you should know it was there.

Mike WA6ILQ 





 
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[Repeater-Builder] Motorola GM300 Power-up Question

[mbloom0947]

Subject:  Motorola GM300 Model M34GMC29C3A UHF 16-channel Radio

The radio was powering on and off ok using front panel volume control-
switch.  When I plugged a Motorola RIB into it for programming the 
power blinked off and I can't turn it on.   Any suggestions?

Michael W7RAT










 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters

[Neil McKie]

  Thank you, sir!  

  Neil - WA6KLA 


"Buley, Kenneth L (GE Consumer & Industrial)" wrote:
> 
> No, you didn't !!! ;>)
> 
> Kenneth Buley
> Bullitt County DES CD-2
> Bullitt County Red Cross/Certified ECRVDriver/Operator BC-6
> Bullitt County ARES\RACES Coordinator KY4DES
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:28 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem
> frompager transmitters
> 
>   Cute ... I saw that too but declined to comment ...
> 
>   Neil
> 
> JOHN MACKEY wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial
> > 2 way & currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio
> > broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't
> > know what a "FCC 1st class licensed ham" is!!
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
> > From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>





 
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[Repeater-Builder] antenna question for 2M ham. . .

[talviar4499]

OK.

One of the repeaters I help maintain (145.170 located in 
Connellsville, PA on the mountain) recently lost an antenna in the 
wind storms that hit us around the beginning of December.

Antenna we had on the tower was a Celwave PD340-3 (If you have never 
seen a 4 bay folded dipole with the top 3/4 of the antenna flapping 
in the wind, trust me you don't want to. . . Saw the darn thing in 
the middle of the wind storm blowing straight out side ways from the 
tower holding on by the harness. . . )

Past experience with trying to find a "new" replacement shows that 
Celwave doesn't make this model anymore. (Last summer replacing the 
antenna on 147.045 for W3PIE)

Along the lines of the 4 Bay folded dipole arrays what does anyone 
recommend? (Familiar with the DB224E antenna)  Anyone making these 
with an internal harness instead of an external harness? (Weather in 
SW PA is not user friendly especially when putting the antennas on 
the top of a mountain)

If this has been covered in the list prior I apologize, have not had 
time to look in the archives so if covered prior give me a rough idea 
of when so I can look.

Otherwise, reply on the list or direct to [EMAIL PROTECTED] would 
be appreciated.

Thanks
Tony, KA3VOR








 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problemfrom pager transmitters

[Neil McKie]

  Almost the same problem in the greater Portland, Oregon area.  One 
 2 meter systems' receiver was a half mile away as two onsite paging 
 transmitters were 600 kHz apart and 75 yards from the repeater site. 

  A few years later, one of the paging transmitters was shut down and 
 the repeater receiver was moved back to the transmitter site. 

  Neil McKie - WA6KLA 


"Jim B." wrote:
> 
> kc4ih wrote:
> 
> >
> > How true and the same is being seen here. With the reduced activity
> > we are seeing some hams come back to the 146.640 repeater. We can
> > thank cell phones for the demise of the pagers. Thank you for you
> > input on the situation.
> > Ken
> >
> 
> Yes, I do hope that those transmitters go away for you. We had the same
> problem here with 146.625. Right next to us was 158.10 and 158.70. Plus
> a couple of 152's that caused their own product on our input.
> For the longest time we just couldn't run a receiver at that site. Now
> all the VHF and all but one UHF are gone from that site, and the
> networks shut down, so we have a receiver there now.
> 
> --
> Jim Barbour
> WD8CHL
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Mike Perryman]

Thanks a ton!!  Not sure what I will use it for, thought of maybe
ATV (FM modulation scheme)repeater or something... in on 1.2 and out on
900. I didn't really give it much though, especially since the elusive
docs and what-not.  I have a 75 watt PA for 800 from a Micor that I
had considered converting..  but the "Nuke" would be
native...  and hopefully easier to deal with.
I will give Mr. Malicki a try...   thanks
again.
mike

At 01:20 PM 12/21/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Try emailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] ,
Dave got one running on 927Mhz and I think 
he was able to get 300 watts out of it.  The Nuke PA would do 300
watts, 
but lasted much longer at 275 or, better yet, 250 watts.
Do you need cavities?
73, Joe, k1ike
At 01:06 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
>Joe,
>Do you have any info on the Motorola Nucleus gear...  I have a
high power
>PA for 900MHz that I thought about trying to make use of, but can
find no
>docs...
>
>TIA,
>mike
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-
  Mike
Perryman   
Cavell, Mertz & Davis, Inc.
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
Consulting Engineers
 
http://www.cmdconsulting.com
7839 Ashton Avenue
 
K5JMP   
Manassas, VA 20109   USA
  (703) 392-9090; (703) 392-9559 fax;  DC Line (202)
332-0110    
-













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Joe]

Try emailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] , Dave got one running on 927Mhz and I think 
he was able to get 300 watts out of it.  The Nuke PA would do 300 watts, 
but lasted much longer at 275 or, better yet, 250 watts.

Do you need cavities?

73, Joe, k1ike

At 01:06 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
>Joe,
>Do you have any info on the Motorola Nucleus gear...  I have a high power
>PA for 900MHz that I thought about trying to make use of, but can find no
>docs...
>
>TIA,
>mike

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Mike Perryman]

Joe,
Do you have any info on the Motorola Nucleus gear...  I have a high power 
PA for 900MHz that I thought about trying to make use of, but can find no 
docs...

TIA,
mike


At 12:56 PM 12/21/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>The paging companies were more up to date here in the Northeast, Motorola
>Nucleus and Glenayre/Quintron equipment.  Some were capable of up to 16
>frequencies in the same band.
>
>Joe
>
>At 10:23 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
> >Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't
> >really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around
> >here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations.
> >And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without
> >cavites anyway.
> >--
> >Jim Barbour
> >WD8CHL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

-
   Mike PerrymanCavell, Mertz & Davis, Inc.
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Consulting Engineers
   http://www.cmdconsulting.com 7839 Ashton Avenue
   K5JMPManassas, VA 20109   USA
   (703) 392-9090; (703) 392-9559 fax;  DC Line (202) 332-0110
- 





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Joe]

The paging companies were more up to date here in the Northeast, Motorola 
Nucleus and Glenayre/Quintron equipment.  Some were capable of up to 16 
frequencies in the same band.

Joe

At 10:23 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
>Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't
>really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around
>here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations.
>And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without
>cavites anyway.
>--
>Jim Barbour
>WD8CHL






 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters

[Buley, Kenneth L \(GE Consumer & Industrial\)]

No, you didn't !!! ;>)

Kenneth Buley
Bullitt County DES CD-2
Bullitt County Red Cross/Certified ECRVDriver/Operator BC-6
Bullitt County ARES\RACES Coordinator KY4DES 


-Original Message-
From: Neil McKie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:28 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem
frompager transmitters




  Cute ... I saw that too but declined to comment ... 

  Neil 

JOHN MACKEY wrote:
> 
> Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 
> 2 way & currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio 
> broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't 
> know what a "FCC 1st class licensed ham" is!! 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
> From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>





 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater

[James]

If the proposed operation will be used to conduct the business
activities of your farm, then you are eligible.

James

Steve Bosshard (NU5D) wrote:

  
  


  
  
  
  Are
you eligible under part 90 to hold a
license in the Business Radio Service, ie, 90.75 a 1, statement of
eligibility?
   
  
  
  
  From: KI4AWK
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  Sent: Tuesday,
December 21, 2004
5:55 AM
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
  Subject:
[Repeater-Builder] Advice
on Business Band repeater
  
   
  
  
  I am a
ham who is
contemplating building a business-band repeater. I have a few questions
that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and
searching.
  
  
  ·
  [Steve
Bosshard (NU5D)]   
  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics

[Mike Perryman]

sorry for the double post  must be keyboard bounce or something...
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 12:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem frompager transmitters

[Neil McKie]

  Cute ... I saw that too but declined to comment ... 

  Neil 

JOHN MACKEY wrote:
> 
> Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 
> 2 way & currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio 
> broadcast field and possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't 
> know what a "FCC 1st class licensed ham" is!! 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
> From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>





 
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[Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics

[Mike Perryman]

Skip, et all...
If you would like a little history into the background of KFI the following
is something that was posted the other day for folks in "da biz"...
follow the link at the end for many interesting pics.  This was a very
historic facility steeped in AM lore..

mike


  KFI(AM) TOWER COLLAPSES - STRUCK BY AN AIRCRAFT, TWO DEAD

  Sunday, December 19, 2004 - "I just got a call and saw it
on TV: KFI's 750' tower was hit by a private plane. The tower
came down in folded pieces missing buildings and falling
completely within the parking lot. KFI is back on the air on
their aux tower but only running 5 kW. The two people in the
plane, a man and women, were killed. It's amazing how the tower
missed the buildings and apparently all vehicles in the parking
lot."  - L.A. broadcast engineer Burt Weiner

  "The Cessna 182 struck the KFI tower about 9:49 a.m A
small fire followed but was extinguished KFI was off the
air for about an hour, before Tony Dinkel could bully his way
into the site and manually switch to the 200' aux tower
There may be a crack in a wall of one of the concrete tilt-up
buildings on the KFI property, not sure of the cause I
recall that the KFI tower was hit by an airplane years ago,
but the tower won that time Getting permits to install
a new 750' tower may be challenging."
  -Various sources

  Photos of KFI's transmitter plant before the accident are
shown at the URL below. The 50 kW tuning house (third picture
down on the right) is said to be seriously damaged, if not
demolished. KFI is generally regarded as one of the nation's
premiere AM stations, so this story - including the unfortunate
loss of life - is big news. It is fortunate that the aux tower
- also a guyed structure on the same property - survived.

  http://www.earthsignals.com/Collins/0020/index.htm

-Original Message-
From: skipp025 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [rfamplifiers] tower pics




I know this is a bit off topic, but it's very
interesting. KFI is (was) a 50KW AM Broadcast
Station. Now running 5KW into the Aux tower.

For those of you who want a closer look at
the downed kfi (Los Angles) tower.

http://sakrison.com/radio/KFItowercollapse.html


enjoy
skipp




 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[JOHN MACKEY]

Sounds like a similar problem here in Portland, Oregon.

We have a guy running an IRLP node here on what is commonly thought of as 2
meter simplex frequencies.  The station is on a broadcast tower with high
elevation running about 375 watts ERP!!!  Mobiles 100 miles away can clearly
hear the IRLP node!!  The IRLP node is made from amateur grade RF equipement &
has had SEVERAL problems with causing interference with the inputs of other
repeaters in the area.  Attempting to talk to the owner & suggesting he put
sharp cavity filters on the transmitter resulted in his reply of "then I
wouldn't be able to be frequency agile". 

Meanwhile, his deviation has been measured at +/- 9 KHz, and he argues that
there is nothing wrong because a telecom service agency measured & set his
deviation.

-- Original Message --
Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:23:57 AM CST
From: "Jim B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem  from
pager transmitters

> 
> Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't 
> really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around 
> here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations.
> And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without 
> cavites anyway.
> -- 
> Jim Barbour
> WD8CHL
> 
> 
> Joe wrote:
> 
> > You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters 
> > lately.  As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of 
> > loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at each 
> > site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there.  What some companies 
> > are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing 
> > multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they were

> > all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.)  When they multi-frequency a 
> > transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the
transmitter 
> > output.  This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet now

> > have noise problems.  The irony of it is that you see paging transmitters

> > leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only to

> > find that the nose increases tenfold.
> > 
> > 73, Joe, K1ike
> > 
> > At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
> > 
> >>All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities
> >>and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at
> >>any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for
> >>that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business.
> >>The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away,
> >>and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back
> >>into the general pool in a few years, or less.
> >>There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore.
> >>--
> >>Jim Barbour
> >>WD8CHL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[JOHN MACKEY]

The (former) First & Second Class FCC licenses you are referring to weren't
conbined into the "general class technicians license" (it sounds like you are
confising the names of amateur & commercial licenses).  Rather, they were
combined into the "General Radiotelephone Operator License" (GROL) which was a
lifetime license.

The GROL is no longer required for land mobile two-way or broadcast work & is
optional.  It is only required for working on maritime and avionics
equipment.

When I got my current job as a Chief Engineer of a FM broadcast station, they
had no idea what a GROL was

There is no "FCC 1st class licensed ham".  Perhaps you are referring to a
licensed ham that also happens to have a GROL (formerly the first/second class
radiotelephone), which was NOT a ham radio license. (Despite what some of them
thought!!!)

-- Original Message --
Received: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:47:41 AM CST
From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from
pager transmitters

> 
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 
> way &
> > currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast 
> field and
> > possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC 1st 
> class
> > licensed ham" is!!
> > 
> It was about 2 am here when I wrote this last night but
> If you are the Chief Engineer of a radio station then you should 
> know that anyone prior to 1984 a person had to hold a first class 
> FCC technicians license to work on and repair and operate a radio or 
> TV station. The 1st class and 2nd class were combined in the late 
> 1980s to a general class technicians license and made a lifetime 
> license, not to be confused with the technician class ham license. 
> The fact that the two of us hold an extra class and the other an 
> advanced class ham ticket was not explained but I assumed that it 
> would be understood. That is not the problem, its the repeater 
> intermod. 
> This reply is the reason that I hate to post to a group such as this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 







 
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[Repeater-Builder] RE: [rfamplifiers] tower pics

[Mike Perryman]

Skip, et all...
If you would like a little history into the background of KFI the following
is something that was posted the other day for folks in "da biz"...
follow the link at the end for many interesting pics.  This was a very
historic facility steeped in AM lore..

mike


  KFI(AM) TOWER COLLAPSES - STRUCK BY AN AIRCRAFT, TWO DEAD

  Sunday, December 19, 2004 - "I just got a call and saw it
on TV: KFI's 750' tower was hit by a private plane. The tower
came down in folded pieces missing buildings and falling
completely within the parking lot. KFI is back on the air on
their aux tower but only running 5 kW. The two people in the
plane, a man and women, were killed. It's amazing how the tower
missed the buildings and apparently all vehicles in the parking
lot."  - L.A. broadcast engineer Burt Weiner

  "The Cessna 182 struck the KFI tower about 9:49 a.m A
small fire followed but was extinguished KFI was off the
air for about an hour, before Tony Dinkel could bully his way
into the site and manually switch to the 200' aux tower
There may be a crack in a wall of one of the concrete tilt-up
buildings on the KFI property, not sure of the cause I
recall that the KFI tower was hit by an airplane years ago,
but the tower won that time Getting permits to install
a new 750' tower may be challenging."
  -Various sources

  Photos of KFI's transmitter plant before the accident are
shown at the URL below. The 50 kW tuning house (third picture
down on the right) is said to be seriously damaged, if not
demolished. KFI is generally regarded as one of the nation's
premiere AM stations, so this story - including the unfortunate
loss of life - is big news. It is fortunate that the aux tower
- also a guyed structure on the same property - survived.

  http://www.earthsignals.com/Collins/0020/index.htm

-Original Message-
From: skipp025 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [rfamplifiers] tower pics




I know this is a bit off topic, but it's very
interesting. KFI is (was) a 50KW AM Broadcast
Station. Now running 5KW into the Aux tower.

For those of you who want a closer look at
the downed kfi (Los Angles) tower.

http://sakrison.com/radio/KFItowercollapse.html


enjoy
skipp







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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Jim B.]

kc4ih wrote:

> 
> How true and the same is being seen here. With the reduced activity 
> we are seeing some hams come back to the 146.640 repeater. We can 
> thank cell phones for the demise of the pagers. Thank you for you 
> input on the situation.
> Ken
> 

Yes, I do hope that those transmitters go away for you. We had the same 
problem here with 146.625. Right next to us was 158.10 and 158.70. Plus 
a couple of 152's that caused their own product on our input.
For the longest time we just couldn't run a receiver at that site. Now 
all the VHF and all but one UHF are gone from that site, and the 
networks shut down, so we have a receiver there now.

-- 
Jim Barbour
WD8CHL





 
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[Repeater-Builder] KFI down tower pics

[skipp025]

For those of you who want a closer look at 
the downed kfi (Los Angles) tower. 

http://sakrison.com/radio/KFItowercollapse.html 


enjoy
skipp







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[kc4ih]

Thank you John! Those replies are the very reason people hesitate 
posting to groups such as this. I missed only 2 questions on the  
1st class test and none on my advanced ham test. I don't think I 
have to prove my credentials before posting but there they are. I 
appreciate  everyones input, even the "Yahoo group police".
Ken

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "WD7F - John in Tucson" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think that most of us knew what he meant.
> 
> Everybody just loves a wise ass, as if it's not intimidating 
enough to get
> on this reflector and ask a question.  I'm really surprised that 
you two
> don't have all of your glorious credentials listed in your 
signature at the
> end of your postings so that we would know how great you are.
> 
> de WD7F
> John in Tucson
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "mch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 11:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod 
problem from
> pager transmitters
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's like a "Grade A Ham"? ;->
> 
> Joe M.
> 
> JOHN MACKEY wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 
2 way &
> > currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast 
field and
> > possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC 
1st class
> > licensed ham" is!!
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
> > From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 
12/17/2004
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[kc4ih]

How true and the same is being seen here. With the reduced activity 
we are seeing some hams come back to the 146.640 repeater. We can 
thank cell phones for the demise of the pagers. Thank you for you 
input on the situation.
Ken

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Jim B." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass 
cavities 
> and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must 
at 
> any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money 
for 
> that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business.
> The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going 
away, 
> and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released 
back 
> into the general pool in a few years, or less.
> There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore.
> -- 
> Jim Barbour
> WD8CHL
> 
> 
> kc4ih wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked 
> > great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the 
phone 
> > company and a pager company installed their high power 
transmitters 
> > near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is 
> > virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the 
> > difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is 
the 
> > problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going 
to 
> > an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia 
> > won't even consider that as an option.
> > 
> > The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter 
and 
> > receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were 
modified 
> > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams 
> > using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are 
> > running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are 
> > correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. 
> > When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers 
transmitting 
> > at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no 
> > problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in 
the 
> > 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These 
transmitter 
> > are both 250 watts or more output.
> > 
> > My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is 
mixing 
> > with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 
> > signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible 
tone 
> > for repeater access and as soon as a station working the 
repeater 
> > drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up 
the 
> > machine once the tone is removed.  This may be happening in the 
> > antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every 
> > test I have run, and there have been many, supports this 
conclusion.
> > 
> > We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of 
this 
> > problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters 
> > situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other 
machines 
> > have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one 
has 
> > been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied 
it.
> > 
> > Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the 
peak 
> > of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower 
> > which we would not have access to at other locations. The 
searches I 
> > have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical 
> > resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not 
repeaters. If 
> > you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the 
receiver 
> > has excellent helical resonators built in.
> > 
> > Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the 
receiver 
> > and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by 
a 
> > 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 
146.64 
> > signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but 
I'm 
> > out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could 
> > that be sufficient to relieve the problem?
> > 
> > Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input 
(pun 
> > intended) on this matter would be appreciated.
> > 
> > Ken Sturgill, KC4IH
> > Marion VA
> > please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED])







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[kc4ih]

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, JOHN MACKEY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 
way &
> currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast 
field and
> possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC 1st 
class
> licensed ham" is!!
> 
It was about 2 am here when I wrote this last night but
If you are the Chief Engineer of a radio station then you should 
know that anyone prior to 1984 a person had to hold a first class 
FCC technicians license to work on and repair and operate a radio or 
TV station. The 1st class and 2nd class were combined in the late 
1980s to a general class technicians license and made a lifetime 
license, not to be confused with the technician class ham license. 
The fact that the two of us hold an extra class and the other an 
advanced class ham ticket was not explained but I assumed that it 
would be understood. That is not the problem, its the repeater 
intermod. 
This reply is the reason that I hate to post to a group such as this.







 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[WD7F - John in Tucson]

I think that most of us knew what he meant.

Everybody just loves a wise ass, as if it's not intimidating enough to get
on this reflector and ask a question.  I'm really surprised that you two
don't have all of your glorious credentials listed in your signature at the
end of your postings so that we would know how great you are.

de WD7F
John in Tucson

- Original Message - 
From: "mch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from
pager transmitters



Maybe it's like a "Grade A Ham"? ;->

Joe M.

JOHN MACKEY wrote:
>
> Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way &
> currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and
> possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC 1st class
> licensed ham" is!!
>
> -- Original Message --
> Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
> From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.0 - Release Date: 12/17/2004






Yahoo! Groups Links














 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Jim B.]

Except that the vast majority of VHF transmitters/networks weren't 
really capable of multi-freq on the fly as you describe. At least around 
here, anyway, they were virtually all Micor PURC stations.
And most sites would not have allowed the transmitters to remain without 
cavites anyway.
-- 
Jim Barbour
WD8CHL


Joe wrote:

> You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters 
> lately.  As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of 
> loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at each 
> site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there.  What some companies 
> are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing 
> multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they were 
> all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.)  When they multi-frequency a 
> transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the transmitter 
> output.  This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet now 
> have noise problems.  The irony of it is that you see paging transmitters 
> leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only to 
> find that the nose increases tenfold.
> 
> 73, Joe, K1ike
> 
> At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
> 
>>All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities
>>and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at
>>any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for
>>that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business.
>>The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away,
>>and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back
>>into the general pool in a few years, or less.
>>There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore.
>>--
>>Jim Barbour
>>WD8CHL





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Joe]

You will find less and less narrow band cavities on paging transmitters 
lately.  As the paging industry slowly goes into their death spiral of 
loosing customers, they no longer need 2, 4 or more transmitters at each 
site to deal with the capacity of pagers out there.  What some companies 
are doing is leaving one transmitter at the site and doing 
multi-frequencies out of a single transmitter (This is assuming they were 
all on the same band, 900Mhz for example.)  When they multi-frequency a 
transmitter they need to remove any narrow band filters off the transmitter 
output.  This may explain why some ham repeater sites that were quiet now 
have noise problems.  The irony of it is that you see paging transmitters 
leaving a site and think that the noise floor is going to go down, only to 
find that the nose increases tenfold.

73, Joe, K1ike

At 09:53 AM 12/21/2004, you wrote:
>All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities
>and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at
>any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for
>that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business.
>The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away,
>and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back
>into the general pool in a few years, or less.
>There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore.
>--
>Jim Barbour
>WD8CHL

All outgoing email scanned with Norton AntiVirus2004.






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Jim B.]

All paging transmitters involved should have narrow bandpass cavities 
and circulators on their outputs. That's usually considered a must at 
any site. If the paging company isn't willing to spend the money for 
that, then they aren't to serious about staying in business.
The good news is that VHF common carrier paging is slowly going away, 
and the remaining frequencies will likely be dropped and released back 
into the general pool in a few years, or less.
There is virtually no VHF paging here in NE Ohio anymore.
-- 
Jim Barbour
WD8CHL


kc4ih wrote:

> 
> 
> We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked 
> great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone 
> company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters 
> near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is 
> virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the 
> difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the 
> problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to 
> an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia 
> won't even consider that as an option.
> 
> The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and 
> receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified 
> with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams 
> using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are 
> running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are 
> correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. 
> When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting 
> at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no 
> problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 
> 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter 
> are both 250 watts or more output.
> 
> My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing 
> with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 
> signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone 
> for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater 
> drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the 
> machine once the tone is removed.  This may be happening in the 
> antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every 
> test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion.
> 
> We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this 
> problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters 
> situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines 
> have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has 
> been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it.
> 
> Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak 
> of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower 
> which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I 
> have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical 
> resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If 
> you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver 
> has excellent helical resonators built in.
> 
> Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver 
> and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a 
> 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64 
> signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm 
> out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could 
> that be sufficient to relieve the problem?
> 
> Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun 
> intended) on this matter would be appreciated.
> 
> Ken Sturgill, KC4IH
> Marion VA
> please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED])





 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater

[Ed Folta]

  Dear John
   
  You may find it worth while to call me at 
  800.298.2850
  We are in this business and understand the
  "Battelfield Logistics"
   
  73
  Ed Folta K9QPJ
  President
  Com/Rad Inc.        http://www.com-rad.com
   
   
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
KI4AWK 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 5:55 
AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on 
Business Band repeater


I am a ham who is contemplating building a 
business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can 
answer and save me hours of reading and searching.
 
I want to do this so that my family can stay in 
touch. The business license would be in the name of the family farm. 

I know that not everyone in my family is 
interested in radio enough to become a ham, but would definitely own a radio 
if they could communicate reliably. Cell phones are horrible.
 
I do not want to use GMRS frequencies for three 
reasons: I am not impressed with the policing of the GMRS frequencies. 
Anyone can get a GMRS radio, and the line between GMRS and FRS and CB seems 
to be very blurry. I don't want my mom to be the one listening when someone 
starts being rude on our frequency. Reason two is that I want to be able to 
hook up a phone patch. This is strictly forbidden in GMRS. Reason three is 
the "type acceptance" rule that prohibits several quality radios from being 
used in GMRS.
 
My questions: 
 
What kind of cost am I looking at for a 
repeater pair license?
Does each user need a separate license? cost 
per user?
Can I do the research and find a frequency pair 
myself, or do I have to go through a coordinator? (if so, what does that 
cost?)
(We live in a rural area, Thomasville, GA. 
Finding a pair should not be hard. I am hoping for a pair in the 460 band, 
as I have a very nice mastr II for that band.)
I have been monitoring a specific frequency, 
and did research through the FCC website on it for users in my 
area.
What else should I do to get 
started?
 
John Clark - 
KI4AWK


 














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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater

[Glenn Little WB4UIV]

John

The same type acceptance rules that you mention for GMRS also apply to a 
part 90 repeater. Home built repeaters do not carry a type acceptance for 
part 90.

The only service that can use equipment that is not type accepted is the 
amateur radio service and possibly the federal services such as military, 
and the three letter agencies.


 From CFR 1, 1102

The fees appear to be:



   Fee   Payment  type
  ActionFCC Form 
No.   amount code  Address



6. Land Mobile PMRS
a. New or Renewal/Modification 601 & 159..  50.00  PALR 
*Federal Communications
  (Frequencies below 470 
MHzCommission, 
Wireless
  (except 220 
MHz). 
Bureau Applications, P.O.

Box 
358130, Pittsburgh,

PA 
15251-5130.




73 Glenn
WB4UIV

   06:55 AM 12/21/04, you wrote:
>I am a ham who is contemplating building a business-band repeater. I have 
>a few questions that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of 
>reading and searching.
>
>I want to do this so that my family can stay in touch. The business 
>license would be in the name of the family farm.
>I know that not everyone in my family is interested in radio enough to 
>become a ham, but would definitely own a radio if they could communicate 
>reliably. Cell phones are horrible.
>
>I do not want to use GMRS frequencies for three reasons: I am not 
>impressed with the policing of the GMRS frequencies. Anyone can get a GMRS 
>radio, and the line between GMRS and FRS and CB seems to be very blurry. I 
>don't want my mom to be the one listening when someone starts being rude 
>on our frequency. Reason two is that I want to be able to hook up a phone 
>patch. This is strictly forbidden in GMRS. Reason three is the "type 
>acceptance" rule that prohibits several quality radios from being used in GMRS.



>
>
>John Clark - KI4AWK
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Steve Bosshard \(NU5D\)]

We have a problem here in Temple, Texas where one paging carrier operates a
152 system and another has 157 about a mile North of the 152 site.  I cannot
remember the exact frequencies, but 3 times one minus 2 times the other hit
147.240.  This only happened when both paging transmitters were active.
Adding a bandpass cavity at the 152 site really helped.  Incidentally, both
systems had clean signals, neither used ferrite isolators or cavity filters.
Sometimes just complying with the rules is not enough to keep peace in the
neighborhood.

Ssb
 

-Original Message-
From: Joe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 6:13 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
 
 

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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Joe]

Excellent reply, Eric.

I worked for several paging companies for about 10
years.  Although several problems I found in the past
were caused by the paging company, just as many were
found to be shortcomings in the repeater equipment or
faulty hardware on the tower.  

Like you said, we really need to know the frequencies
involved and what specific kinds of equipment are on
the ham repeater, ie duplexer model and if a preamp is
being used.  If the mix is external to the ham
repeater, the fix may be difficult but not impossible
to do.  If the mix is occurring inside the repeater
receiver, a notch filter to reduce the paging signals
may work.

Joe

--- Eric Lemmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ken,
> 
> Please advise exactly what frequencies these pager
> transmitters are operating on.  There are a number
of > possibilities for intermod, but knowing the
offending > frequencies is crucial to a solution.





 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater

[Steve Bosshard \(NU5D\)]

Are you eligible under part 90 to hold a
license in the Business Radio Service, ie, 90.75 a 1, statement of eligibility?

 









From: KI4AWK
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004
5:55 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Advice
on Business Band repeater



 





I am a ham who is
contemplating building a business-band repeater. I have a few questions
that maybe you guys can answer and save me hours of reading and searching.





·
[Steve Bosshard (NU5D)]   


















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[Repeater-Builder] Advice on Business Band repeater

[KI4AWK]

I am a ham who is contemplating building a 
business-band repeater. I have a few questions that maybe you guys can answer 
and save me hours of reading and searching.
 
I want to do this so that my family can stay in 
touch. The business license would be in the name of the family farm. 

I know that not everyone in my family is 
interested in radio enough to become a ham, but would definitely own a radio if 
they could communicate reliably. Cell phones are horrible.
 
I do not want to use GMRS frequencies for three 
reasons: I am not impressed with the policing of the GMRS frequencies. Anyone 
can get a GMRS radio, and the line between GMRS and FRS and CB seems to be very 
blurry. I don't want my mom to be the one listening when someone starts being 
rude on our frequency. Reason two is that I want to be able to hook up a phone 
patch. This is strictly forbidden in GMRS. Reason three is the "type acceptance" 
rule that prohibits several quality radios from being used in GMRS.
 
My questions: 
 
What kind of cost am I looking at for a repeater 
pair license?
Does each user need a separate license? cost per 
user?
Can I do the research and find a frequency pair 
myself, or do I have to go through a coordinator? (if so, what does that 
cost?)
(We live in a rural area, Thomasville, GA. Finding 
a pair should not be hard. I am hoping for a pair in the 460 band, as I have a 
very nice mastr II for that band.)
I have been monitoring a specific frequency, and 
did research through the FCC website on it for users in my area.
What else should I do to get started?
 
John Clark - KI4AWK













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[mch]

Maybe it's like a "Grade A Ham"? ;->

Joe M.

JOHN MACKEY wrote:
> 
> Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way &
> currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and
> possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC 1st class
> licensed ham" is!!
> 
> -- Original Message --
> Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
> From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[mch]

And pray you don't cause interference with any other repeaters.

Joe M.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> If all that fails then screw the repeater co-ordinator and change
> your split.



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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[JOHN MACKEY]

Hmmm, after 20 years of ham radio, past experience in commercial 2 way &
currently working as an Chief Engineer in the radio broadcast field and
possessing my Extra Amateur and GROL, I don't know what a "FCC 1st class
licensed ham" is!!

-- Original Message --
Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams 






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[k1eg]

Ken the problem is not your equipment but simply a problem with the
commercial pagers.  Paging Xmiters are know for there sloppy transmissions.
If you have access to a spectrum analyzer that is well calibrated go to the
site and check their transmissions for bandwidth and see if they are within
regs.  If they are, and if your repeater is used for Civil Defense purposes
I would file a notice of interferance against them with the FCC Field
Office.  If all that fails then screw the repeater co-ordinator and change
your split.

Mike/K1EG

- Original Message - 
From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:35 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from
pager transmitters


>
>
>
> We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked
> great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone
> company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters
> near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is
> virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the
> difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the
> problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to
> an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia
> won't even consider that as an option.
>
> The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and
> receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified
> with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams
> using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are
> running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are
> correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster.
> When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting
> at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no
> problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the
> 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter
> are both 250 watts or more output.
>
> My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing
> with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04
> signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone
> for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater
> drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the
> machine once the tone is removed.  This may be happening in the
> antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every
> test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion.
>
> We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this
> problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters
> situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines
> have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has
> been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it.
>
> Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak
> of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower
> which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I
> have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical
> resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If
> you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver
> has excellent helical resonators built in.
>
> Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver
> and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a
> 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64
> signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm
> out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could
> that be sufficient to relieve the problem?
>
> Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun
> intended) on this matter would be appreciated.
>
> Ken Sturgill, KC4IH
> Marion VA
> please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>








 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[Eric Lemmon]

Ken,

Please advise exactly what frequencies these pager transmitters are
operating on.  There are a number of possibilities for intermod, but
knowing the offending frequencies is crucial to a solution.

Less than a mile from my home station, there is a hilltop site at which
two high-power (3,500 watts ERP) paging transmitters operate.  One is at
152.480 MHz and the other is at 157.740 MHz.  A classic third-order
intermodulation (2A-B) occurs when both are keyed up, resulting in a
product at 147.220 MHz, which nearly clobbers my reception of the K6SYV
repeater at 147.210 MHz.  This is receive IM, where the mixing occurs in
my own receiver due to a wide bandwidth in the front end.  I cured this
by changing to a Motorola CDM1550 radio, which has a very "tight" front
end that tracks the desired receive frequency.

You did not state whether the interference is on your repeater's input
or output, and corrective action will be different for the two. 
Moreover, without having all of the pertinent information, it is almost
impossible to consider a solution.  Please provide a complete
description of the symptoms.

Part of the problem (but not necessarily the prime cause) may be due to
insufficient selectivity in the front end of your repeater.  The
majority of bandpass/bandreject duplexers have practically no bandpass
action; their operation depends primarily upon the notch action.  A lot
of undesirable signal can sail right through the receive side of such
duplexers, ready to overload the RF input stage.  In such cases, the
solution is to add two or three bandpass cavities between the duplexer
and the receiver.

But, please provide the necessary information so that others who read
this list can study the problem and recommend solutions.  Who knows, the
solution may be the responsibility of one or both pager operators.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

kc4ih wrote:
> 
> We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked
> great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone
> company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters
> near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is
> virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the
> difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the
> problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to
> an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia
> won't even consider that as an option.
> 
> The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and
> receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified
> with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams
> using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are
> running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are
> correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster.
> When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting
> at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no
> problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the
> 150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter
> are both 250 watts or more output.
> 
> My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing
> with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04
> signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone
> for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater
> drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the
> machine once the tone is removed.  This may be happening in the
> antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every
> test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion.
> 
> We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this
> problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters
> situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines
> have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has
> been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it.
> 
> Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak
> of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower
> which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I
> have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical
> resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If
> you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver
> has excellent helical resonators built in.
> 
> Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver
> and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a
> 220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64
> signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm
> out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could
> that be sufficient to relieve the problem?
> 
> Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (p

Re: [Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[JOHN MACKEY]

-- Original Message --
Received: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:54:16 PM CST
From: "kc4ih" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
SNIP
> virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the 
> difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the 
> problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to 
> an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia 
> won't even consider that as an option.

In my area I had to eventually say "the hell with the repeater coordinator!"
and put up a 2 meter repeater with a non-600 split
to deal with the problem I had.






 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] GP - Diesel Locomotive

[Q]

And I spent 10 years in the 70's building the GE E-60-CP's and the D- 
series of diesel/electrics here in Erie,Pa...gee,maybe thats why I like 
those MastrII's s much?!!? Addicted to gold anodizing I guess...or 
is it in my veins?
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> In a message dated 12/20/2004 7:45:51 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Ok, what is a GP-68? 
>  
>   Sounds like a Diesel Locomotive ...
>
>   Neil - WA6KLA
>
> My Dad who is a 35 year retired Electro-Motive employee, Thanks you!
> Electro Motive are the builders of GM's Diesel Locomotive Line! (GP, 
> SD AND OTHERS)
>  
> Brian, WD9HSY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





 
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[Repeater-Builder] HELP: 2 meter repeater intermod problem from pager transmitters

[kc4ih]

We have 146.04/.64 repeater on a nearby mountain top. It worked 
great for years with a range of 100 miles or more. Since the phone 
company and a pager company installed their high power transmitters 
near the site of the repeater (within 100 yards) the repeater is 
virtually useless. After much head scratching I believe that the 
difference in frequency of the pager transmitter of 600 khz is the 
problem but have no idea how to solve the problem without going to 
an odd split. The repeater coordinator for this area of Virginia 
won't even consider that as an option.

The equipment that we are using is excellent. The transmitter and 
receiver on the repeater are both Motorola Micor and were modified 
with to the repeater frequencies by FCC 1st class licensed hams 
using Motorola parts. This is not an equipment problem. We are 
running a set of Wacom cavities which were bought new and are 
correctly tuned and the antenna is a Phelps-Dodge Stationmaster. 
When the intermod occurs it is dependant on BOTH pagers transmitting 
at the same time. If only one pager is transmitting there is no 
problem. This may at first sound unusual but the pagers are in the 
150 mhz band and they are exactly 600 kc apart. These transmitter 
are both 250 watts or more output.

My theory is that the 600 kc (difference of the 2 pagers) is mixing 
with the output of the repeater 146.64 and producing the 146.04 
signal, the repeater input frequency. We are using sub-audible tone 
for repeater access and as soon as a station working the repeater 
drops carrier the repeater drops. The intermod cannot hold up the 
machine once the tone is removed.  This may be happening in the 
antenna or hardline connectors prior to the cavities. Every 
test I have run, and there have been many, supports this conclusion.

We are not the only 2 meter repeater that has fallen victim of this 
problem and in every case we have found two pager transmitters 
situated 600 kc apart near the repeater. Most of the other machines 
have been taken off the air, others just put up with it. No one has 
been able to solve the problem and many technicians have studied it.

Moving the repeater far enough away is not an option since the peak 
of the mountain is so small. Also we are using an existing tower 
which we would not have access to at other locations. The searches I 
have done on Google has turned up the stock answer of helical 
resonators which would apply to 2 meter radios but not repeaters. If 
you are familiar with the Micor equipment you know that the receiver 
has excellent helical resonators built in.

Tonight I have considered the possibility of splitting the receiver 
and the transmitter of the repeater and linking the rx signal by a 
220 mhz link. I am hoping that by reducing the level of the 146.64 
signal by 50-60 db would alleviate the problem. Maybe not, but I'm 
out of ideas. This split would be only about 100 yards but could 
that be sufficient to relieve the problem?

Have any of you ever had this problem and solved it? Any input (pun 
intended) on this matter would be appreciated.

Ken Sturgill, KC4IH
Marion VA
please reply to ([EMAIL PROTECTED])











 
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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Digest Number 2864

[N5IUF]

You are right.  The crystal oscillator (channel element) noise is 
multiplied up in the GE multiplier exciter.  But the same thing applies to 
a GE PLL exciter.  The phase noise of reference oscillator (channel 
element) is also multiplied up, it's just not done in the same 
fashion.  
 
Noise is a form of instability.  The best way to think of it is, 
instead of 100% of all of the energy being at exactly one frequency, it is 
not.  The oscillator is jittering slightly from center frequency, thus 
producing sideband noise.  The better the oscillator, the less the jitter 
(or instability) the less the noise will be.  This is why some oscillators 
have more "hiss" than others.  
 
As far as actually quantifying the phase noise of any oscillator or 
exciter, it done in terms of its spectral power density, which is the power 
contained in a 1-Hz bandwidth at any particular 
frequency.   
 
Additional noise contributors that unique to a PLL 
circuit, include VCO noise (which can be far worse than just the noise 
of a crystal oscillator multiplied up due to it's lower Q), divider noise, 
active loop filter noise, phase detector flicker noise, among 
others. 
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue a "multiplier" design is a 
better way to go.  I'm just trying to shed some light on how it works, 
what actually causes "hiss" and make the statement that just because one 
attempt at a particular approach did not yield very good results, 
doesn't mean that other approaches are automatically superior.  With 
today's improved PLL techniques and integrated devices, PLL is an 
excellent approach for new designs.
 
Chris Hudgins - N5IUF   
Unless 
  these multipliers without "issues" have very high Q tuned circuits, I 
  don't see where the improvement in phase noise would come from.  Noise is 
  increased anytime a signal is multiplied by the factor 20*log(N), where N 
  is the multiplication factor.  So for the highband VHF exciter 
  utilizing a crystal oscillator (x 12), the noise will be 21.6 dB higher 
  (referenced to the carrier) than the noise of the crystal oscillator 
  itself.  I'm not ceratin of this but I don't think it's possible to 
  reduce this noise without resorting tovery high-Q multiplier circuits 
  or interstage filtering.Bob NO6B

 













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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood TKR-830

[N9WYS]

Nope – the
“repeater fairy” came by and left this on my doorstep…  Early Christmas present!  J  

 

Mark – N9WYS

 

-Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004
9:05 PM
To:
Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder]
Re: Kenwood TKR-830

 

I sure hope
you did not pay the TKR-830 price for a TKR-820

 

Mike


















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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Sinclair Q-202G

[Eric Lemmon]

Bob,

A bandpass filter should follow the duplexer, so that it does not affect
the impedance matches between the transmit and receive cavities of the
duplexer, and to the antenna.

In each of the cases where I added bandpass cavities on the receive
side, it was to limit the bandwidth going to an RF preamplifier, and I
used a random length of RG-400/U coax.  Maybe it was an incredible
coincidence, but the sensitivity numbers showed that everything was
closely matched.

Although I have used the famous Motorola MICOR preamps in several
installations, I prefer to go first class with Angle Linear GaAsFET
preamps preceded by two large bandpass cavities set for a total
insertion loss of 1.0 dB, and followed by a 6 or 10 dB attenuator before
going to the receiver.  While others may get excellent results with much
less complicated (and expensive!) installations, I like to over-design
when the system is critical and may be compromised by other nearby
radios.  YMMV.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

rtoplus wrote:
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Paul,
> >   ...snip...
> > A 100W repeater normally requires 100
> > dB of isolation for zero desense, and that usually calls for six
> > cavities.  However, I have used a Q-202G duplexer with two added
> > bandpass cavities on the receive side, and it had zero desense
> with a
> > 100W PA.
> >
> > 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Hi Eric and others
> 
> Question...I have the same duplexer and was thinking of adding a
> couple of bandpass filters as well.  Does the 14" cable length apply
> to the added on cavities as well?  And should they be installed
> between the antenna port and first RX cavity or between the last RX
> cavity and receiver or does it matter?  I know the cabling for this
> duplexer is kinda funky so I'm wondering just where in the cabling
> scheme of things any add on filters should be added and their cable
> lengths.
> 
> I have a DB Products 4 can bandpass duplexer 150/160 mHz or so
> that's just sitting around doing nothing and I figured I'd put some
> of the cans to some use.  The model is a DB 4044 but I don't know if
> the rods are long enough to tune to 146.775/.175 mHz (my 2 meter
> frequency)...never tried to tune it down low.  Its currently on
> 152.915/159.900.
> 
> If they can be used, should the add on cans be tuned independently
> and then the whole shebang re-tuned?  All I have is a couple of
> simple service monitors with no spectrum analyzers or network
> analyzers...would I be able to get "close enough for government
> work" do you suppose?  I'm not sure that there are any "qualified
> filter tuners" in my area (piedmont of NC).
> 
> Thanks and Happy Holidays!
> Bob, GMRS WPVV845, Amateur KG4WAD, LMRS WPXC892
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>




 
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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Kenwood TKR-830

[k7pfj]

I sure hope you did not pay the TKR-830 price for a TKR-820
 
Mike
 
-- Original message -- > > Well, gang. I finally have the monster in my hot little hands!! And I find > it is NOT a TKR-830, but rather a TKR-820... From reading the > Repeater-Builder's web page, I see that Gene - WB0PKP has a TKR-820 > operating on the ham band. > Gene - if you're out there reading this, can you get in touch with me > off-list?? For Gene and all, some questions... > 1) Can I use the software for the 830 to program this, or is there another > version? > 2) How difficult is it to get it to go to 444 MHz? (I need mine on 444.550) > It is currently on 462. > 3) Will be looking for manuals, etc... > Thanks all, and sorry for the confusion. > Mark - N9WYS > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > 













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Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.

[DCFluX]

Instead of deviating the crystal, How about generating a super stable
VCO using a PLL that has say a 5 second lock time instead of the
typical 2mS lock time running all the time, this could even be
frequency locked to a 10MHz source such as those found on GPS
recievers.

Then to modulate it, we would use a double balenced mixer with
filtered baseband audio on the second port and amplify what comes out
and for keying just turn off the RF port from the VCO going into the
mixer.  This would create FM correct?  But I would think you would
need alot of AF and must be balanced audio with op-amps fed with + and
- voltage or a good matching transformer. I have seen a ass load of
mixers that say the "IF" port will accept DC to 200 MHz,  Sounds
perfect for 30Hz to 5000.


On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:50:03 -, Coy Hilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Joe, youre right about the error in PPM. BUT taking a crystal and
> deviding it also devides the error in PPM by the same amount and
> multiply it you Multiply by the same factor so the reletive error is
> the same in PPM. A 12 MHZ crystal with a 2PPM error will be off by
> 24 Hz. Take that same crystal and multiply it by 12 ...(GE) and the
> error is still 2ppm..but the error freq is now 12 * 24 or 288 HZ or
> 144000288Hz
> In the GE PLL exciter the VCO is devided and compaired to the ICOM
> and the error voltage is fed back to the VCO so the Deviated Crystal
> freq basically whips the VCO around to deviate it...THE VCO output
> tracks the ICOM freq by way of the Error voltage generated in the
> comparitor. Simple, AYE?
> That is why I use A 10 MHZ output from a GPS as a time base for my
> Direct Digital Synth. for my MASTRII. I take the 10 MHz Double it
> and double it again to get 40 Mhz and use the DDS to set the freq.
> The DDS has a 32 bit freq word and I can set the frequency by .2 Hz
> increments that way,I can get dead on freq that way.
> 73
> AC0Y
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe Montierth
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The frequency stability of any transmitter is only as
> > good as it's reference oscillator (be that a PLL or a
> > multiplied crystal)- dividing or multiplying the
> > frequency will not change that constant (in PPM). It
> > doesn't matter if you use a 100KHz, 1MHz, 10MHz or
> > 100MHz reference frequency, if they are all the same
> > in PPM. You don't somehow get better stability by
> > dividing the frequency, and you don't get worse by
> > multiplying the frequency. It is what it is.
> > 
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > --- Wade Lake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Kevin,
> > >
> > >  I now realize the mistake I was making in
> > > looking at this.  I am used to seeing newer PLL's
> > > with a much higher reference oscillator frequency
> > > and having a divider in the reference side before
> > > the Phase Comparator.  In that case the stability
> > > does improve over that of the reference oscillator,
> > > but that obviously does not apply here.
> > >
> > > Sorry, I will shut up now.
> > > 
> > > Wade - KR7K
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: Kevin Custer
> > > To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:16 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs.
> > > Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
> > >
> > >
> > > Wade,
> > >
> > > If the PLL reference from the crystal is X3, and the
> > > VCO sample has been divided by 4, what is the
> > > product of 3 times 4?  The answer is 12.  If the
> > > transmitter was any more stable in frequency than
> > > the reference, shouldn't one think the stated
> > > frequency stability would be better than 2 PPM or 5
> > > PPM, which is the stability of the ICOM itself?
> > > Many times the manual states the VCO is locked to
> > > the 12th multiple of the ICOM.  This means the
> > > output of the GE PLL exciter will have the stability
> > > of the ICOM, times 12, period.
> > >
> > > Kevin Custer
> > >
> > > Wade Lake wrote:
> > >
> > >I stand corrected, in part anyway.  In this
> > > GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12
> > > from the output.  This is why I said "usually", I am
> > > not familiar with the intricate details of all
> > > radios.  Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for
> > > quite a few years.  I will leave the GE's to others
> > > like you who are more familiar with their inner
> > > workings.
> > >
> > >However, even in this particular radio, I
> > > noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original
> > > ICOM freq as the PLL reference.  This is made
> > > obvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output
> > > of the VCO.  So even though the PLL circuit here is
> > > not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially
> > > stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a
> > > factor of 4.  This does not appy to deviation in
> > > this case but it will most definately apply to
> > > frequency drift.
> > >
> > >   My 2 and a half cents worth.
> > >
> > >   W

[Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciterin duplex service.

[Coy Hilton]

Here is a Fact, The GE PLL exciter is about 20db quieter than a 
multiplied exciter, very likely for the reason stated below.
Think about it this way. To multiply a crystal frequency you have to 
have harmonics.(noise)..okay you multiply that and get even more 
noise..well you amplify each time and get even better noise. By the 
time you multiply the origonal frequency 12 times (GE) you have a 
strong carrier at the required frequency with all kinds of noise, it 
looks like FUZZIES, below it.

Merry Christmas 
73 
AC0Y

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dengler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> At 12/19/2004 10:29 PM, you wrote:
> >
> >When it comes to Phase noise of an oscillator, the higher the Q 
of the 
> >resonant circuit, the better the phase noise.  An LC circuit 
generally 
> >will have a Q of around 100 where a crystal can have a Q of 
10,000 to 
> >500,000, thus a crystal oscillator generally yields superior 
phase noise 
> >performance over LC circuits, such as the VCO in the GE PLL 
exciter.  I 
> >have seen instances where engineers have use 
conventional "multiplier" 
> >circuits (fundamentally similar to the old GE highband exciter, 
without 
> >the "issues") to achieve superior phase noise performance over a 
PLL 
> >circuit, because the phase noise of the VCO was the weakest link 
in the 
> >PLL circuit.
> 
> Unless these multipliers without "issues" have very high Q tuned 
circuits, 
> I don't see where the improvement in phase noise would come from.  
Noise is 
> increased anytime a signal is multiplied by the factor 20*log(N), 
where N 
> is the multiplication factor.  So for the highband VHF exciter 
utilizing a 
> crystal oscillator (x 12), the noise will be 21.6 dB higher 
(referenced to 
> the carrier) than the noise of the crystal oscillator itself.  I'm 
not 
> ceratin of this but I don't think it's possible to reduce this 
noise 
> without resorting to
> very high-Q multiplier circuits or interstage filtering.
> 
> Bob NO6B







 
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[Repeater-Builder] Re: GE Mastr II PLL vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.

[Coy Hilton]

Joe, youre right about the error in PPM. BUT taking a crystal and 
deviding it also devides the error in PPM by the same amount and 
multiply it you Multiply by the same factor so the reletive error is 
the same in PPM. A 12 MHZ crystal with a 2PPM error will be off by 
24 Hz. Take that same crystal and multiply it by 12 ...(GE) and the 
error is still 2ppm..but the error freq is now 12 * 24 or 288 HZ or 
144000288Hz
In the GE PLL exciter the VCO is devided and compaired to the ICOM 
and the error voltage is fed back to the VCO so the Deviated Crystal 
freq basically whips the VCO around to deviate it...THE VCO output 
tracks the ICOM freq by way of the Error voltage generated in the 
comparitor. Simple, AYE?
That is why I use A 10 MHZ output from a GPS as a time base for my 
Direct Digital Synth. for my MASTRII. I take the 10 MHz Double it 
and double it again to get 40 Mhz and use the DDS to set the freq. 
The DDS has a 32 bit freq word and I can set the frequency by .2 Hz 
increments that way,I can get dead on freq that way.
73
AC0Y

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe Montierth 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The frequency stability of any transmitter is only as
> good as it's reference oscillator (be that a PLL or a
> multiplied crystal)- dividing or multiplying the
> frequency will not change that constant (in PPM). It
> doesn't matter if you use a 100KHz, 1MHz, 10MHz or
> 100MHz reference frequency, if they are all the same
> in PPM. You don't somehow get better stability by
> dividing the frequency, and you don't get worse by
> multiplying the frequency. It is what it is.
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> --- Wade Lake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Kevin,
> > 
> >  I now realize the mistake I was making in
> > looking at this.  I am used to seeing newer PLL's
> > with a much higher reference oscillator frequency
> > and having a divider in the reference side before
> > the Phase Comparator.  In that case the stability
> > does improve over that of the reference oscillator,
> > but that obviously does not apply here.
> > 
> > Sorry, I will shut up now.
> > 
> > Wade - KR7K  
> > 
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: Kevin Custer 
> > To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL vs.
> > Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
> > 
> > 
> > Wade,
> > 
> > If the PLL reference from the crystal is X3, and the
> > VCO sample has been divided by 4, what is the
> > product of 3 times 4?  The answer is 12.  If the
> > transmitter was any more stable in frequency than
> > the reference, shouldn't one think the stated
> > frequency stability would be better than 2 PPM or 5
> > PPM, which is the stability of the ICOM itself? 
> > Many times the manual states the VCO is locked to
> > the 12th multiple of the ICOM.  This means the
> > output of the GE PLL exciter will have the stability
> > of the ICOM, times 12, period.
> > 
> > Kevin Custer
> > 
> > Wade Lake wrote:
> > 
> >I stand corrected, in part anyway.  In this
> > GE radio the deviation is indeed at a divide by 12
> > from the output.  This is why I said "usually", I am
> > not familiar with the intricate details of all
> > radios.  Especially GE's, I was a Motorola tech for
> > quite a few years.  I will leave the GE's to others
> > like you who are more familiar with their inner
> > workings. 
> > 
> >However, even in this particular radio, I
> > noticed the PLL circuit uses a X3 from the original
> > ICOM freq as the PLL reference.  This is made
> > obvious by the divide by 4 fed back from the output
> > of the VCO.  So even though the PLL circuit here is
> > not more stable by a factor of 12, as I initially
> > stated, it theoretically should be more stable by a
> > factor of 4.  This does not appy to deviation in
> > this case but it will most definately apply to
> > frequency drift.
> > 
> >   My 2 and a half cents worth.
> > 
> >   Wade - KR7K
> > 
> > 
> >   - Original Message - 
> >   From: Kevin Custer 
> >   To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> >   Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 11:04 AM
> >   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] GE Mastr II PLL
> > vs. Multiplier (crystal) exciter in duplex service.
> > 
> > 
> >   Hi Wade,
> > 
> >   I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your
> > stability theory on the GE Mastr II PLL high-band
> > exciter.  If you refer to the PDF manual for the PLL
> > exciter:
> >  
> >
> 
> >  You will see under the "Description" the exciter
> > utilizes the 12th multiple of the FM ICOM to lock
> > the VCO on frequency.  It goes into more detail
> > about this in the "Circuit Analysis" section of the
> > same manual.  So, the FM ICOM's multiplication
> > certainly does factor into the stability of the PLL
> > exciter, and one can generalize it has the same
> > frequency stability as its multiplier counterpart. 
> > In addition, the

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Crystal Phase Noise?

[Kevin Custer]

Hi Scott


  
  
  
  Thanks for the reply Kevin-
   
  ---Subject repeaters will have
to remain unnamed as I currently enjoy a good relationship with their
point of origin and I want very much to keep the situation that way. I
will say however that transmitter circuit wise , they are esentially
the same as those produced by Spectrum and I have a couple of them too.
I other words, a simple crystal oscillator (with an audio modulated
varicap modulating the crystal capacitance) followed by a multiplyer
string and final amplifier-ie, no PLL's. The difference in the
modulation (FM) noise of of the subject repeaters and others is
noticable via a  monitoring receiver-some repeaters are quieter
than others and I'm not talking about RF quietingI'm talking about
differences in audible background hiss assuming a "full quieting"
strong RF signal. Do you have any ideas as to where the "hiss"
modulation might be coming from. I think it is random phase noise in
the crystal oscillator but I can't point at the problem part or design
problem and am wondering if the crystal it's self could be my noise
source.


Can you take a listen (maybe with a HF receiver) and see if the
oscillator is noisy?  Realize that it will be less noisy by the amount
of multiplication in the radio, but comparing it with a properly
working unit will show you if the problem is at the oscillator level or
not.  If not, successive stages can be monitored likewise to see if the
problem raises in latter stages.

I know in some models of the Spectrum exciter, the varactor is biased
to around 4 volts.  Modulation is imposed upon the bias through a
capacitor.  If the bias provided is not stable or quiet, the effects
you are hearing could be the result of such instability.  Looking
closely with a scope around the varactor and its biasing should tell
you if this is a problem.  As I remember, quiescent bias was set with a
variable resistor, which may have become noisy.

Skipp has suggested that in rare cases the crystal itself can be noisy,
but his case history suggests a problem in possibly 1 in 10-15 units,
which you seem be have a problem more common than that.

Let us know how you make out.

Kevin Custer














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