[Repeater-Builder] Help - TPN1192B PS Doc
I was given a TPN1192B battery charger power supply to fix and then use as a backup supply for our club's repeater. It came with manual 68P81061E50-C MSR 2000 VHF Base and Repeater Stations. In this manual, the power supply instruction section is 68P81062E47-D Option C28AN Battery Charger Power Supply. The problem is that the information in this manual is for the A not the B version. What I'm looking for is information on the B version which has a TRN7404B33 Battery Charger PCB and a TRN5119B Auxiliary Regulator PCB. I searched the RB web site but no joy. Anyone have this information in a PDF file? If not, how about a publication number for a manual that has info on these PCBs? 73 and aloha, Eric KH6CQ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Yes, I agree with this. The discussion originally centered around doing this at repeater sites. I'm just attempting to gather more info from the guy who said it worked. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: ae6zm wesbfl...@surewest.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:17 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill When in comes to matters of science, there will always be some who step forward with anecdotal 'evidence' that they have experienced something that contradicts accepted scientific knowledge. Using caps to reduce your power bill is one of those myths. Your power meter is a true watt meter, and is very carefully designed and tested to measure, react to and record only true watts, and not react to reactive power. (pun!!) Yes, installing corrective capacitors can reduce your power bill, but not because it changes your meter reading; it doesn't. For industrial users, a poor PF results in penalty charges from the utility, and improving the PF by adding capacitive VAs ( or KVAs) can reduce the penalties, thereby reducing your bill. This is not really a repeater topic, but power bills are a real part of repeater use, so it is useful to understand the real 'science'. Wes AE6ZM VE7ELE GROL/RADAR ARRL Technical Specialist Lincoln, CA CM98iv --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bon Hal bhbru...@... wrote: Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation
I've had luck finding these kinds of problems by bringing a spectrum analyzer to the site and connecting it to an antenna. I look at 10-20Mhz sections of the spectrum and try to find a spike that comes up at the same time as the interference. It is time consuming and dependent upon the interference happening frequently, but it works quite well. It beats sitting around trying to analyze the problem to death and you feel like you're at least doing something. Sometimes you need to prove where the trouble is not happening help you focus on where it really is. 73, Joe, K1ike On 8/20/2010 6:35 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote: I have paging intermod from 157.740 Mhz.
[Repeater-Builder] Telewave
Anybody in the group know the correct length of the coax for the Telewave TPRD 1556 duplexer. Need cavity interconnect and combiner lengths. RG 142 Original frequency 155.5 New Frequency 146.8/146.2 Ralph, W7HSG
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation
That's how I found 157.74. We're going back up on Tuesday to look some more. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 4:52 AM, Joe wrote: I've had luck finding these kinds of problems by bringing a spectrum analyzer to the site and connecting it to an antenna. I look at 10-20Mhz sections of the spectrum and try to find a spike that comes up at the same time as the interference.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before we get into the math, an important question that needs to be answered is whether or not this mix occurs when your repeater transmitter is unkeyed. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation I have paging intermod from 157.740 Mhz. My receiver is on 144.540 Mhz. I'm 100% sure there is another transmitter involved in the mix because sometimes the pager is transmitting and I have no interference. I have an intermod calculator program but it wants all the known transmitters and the target receiver. But I need to solve for an unknown transmitter. Is there a way to calculate the other possible soruce(s)? -- Tim :wq Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
I was just wondering. Sounds like something we had going on here in middle Georgia. Good luck es 73, Mike WM4B _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:43 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation I'm in Huntington Beach. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote: Tim, Where are you located? 73, Mike WM4B _ From: mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:49 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation No, I never, ever have heard any other audio. But there is time when I don't hear it at all... as if it takes two signals to occur. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:46 PM, MCH wrote: Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before we get into the math, an important question that needs to be answered is whether or not this mix occurs when your repeater transmitter is unkeyed. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation I have paging intermod from 157.740 Mhz. My receiver is on 144.540 Mhz. I'm 100% sure there is another transmitter involved in the mix because sometimes the pager is transmitting and I have no interference. I have an intermod calculator program but it wants all the known transmitters and the target receiver. But I need to solve for an unknown transmitter. Is there a way to calculate the other possible soruce(s)? -- Tim :wq Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com http://www.avg.com/ Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
What about hot vs. cold days and sunny vs. cloudy? We'd see our problem on hot days pretty much all the time. Cool and cloudy (or cold) days were quiet. Cool days with full sun usually caused the problem to occur. You could almost set your watch by it. 73, Mike WM4B _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 9:37 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net mailto:mch%40nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before we get into the math, an important question that needs to be answered is whether or not this mix occurs when your repeater transmitter is unkeyed. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation I have paging intermod from 157.740 Mhz. My receiver is on 144.540 Mhz. I'm 100% sure there is another transmitter involved in the mix because sometimes the pager is transmitting and I have no interference. I have an intermod calculator program but it wants all the known transmitters and the target receiver. But I need to solve for an unknown transmitter. Is there a way to calculate the other possible soruce(s)? -- Tim :wq Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Low Band Antenna for both 6 10 meters.
The Motorola document is based on the use of the Spectrun base loaded antennas sold by Mother. The Spectrum antenna is a series coil arrangement, not a shunt fed or tapped coil; this is very important! The chart works quite well for the Spectrum antennas and will probably work for any other series fed LB coil. It will not work for any antenna that is shunt fed as myself and several others found out when trying to make two non-Motorola antennas work on a fire engine. The maker of the Untenna antennas told me once that they could be combined in the same way but the method was different; IIRC the antenna to T cables were to be quarterwaves but were for the opposing frequency. Never tried it and that was a long time ago and no notes to back up my memory. Another document exists that details using a ball mount full length whip and a Spectrum series fed LB base load in the same shared configuration. Milt N3LTQ Quoting Scott Zimmerman n3...@repeater-builder.com: skipp025 wrote: The Catholic Church says only the rhythm method is allowed. I SOMEHOW don't think that 'method' will help us in this situation. Although that's how my third child came along. (3 of 3) A BOY BTW! (Yea, Me!!) P.S. I do have a copy of Motorola 68-80100W86 - Diplex Antenna Manual. This document is written for use with standard base-loaded mobile antennas only. Is it scanned into or available in a PDF file format? I'd really like to see a copy if it's available and easily Emailed. Always nice to see how others do things... I thought the above was pretty much common knowledge. Please see the attached PDF file. (Note to Mike Wa6ILQ: Please add to the RB site.) I was warned that this document seems to be backwards in that the length of cable that it says is supposed to go to the higher frequency antenna, actually goes to the lower frequency antenna and vice-versa. I would LOVE to know some of the theory behind this method. I was hoping to use this on a remote base antenna with 'Station' type antennas, but I don't think that will work since it clearly states that Only standard base-loaded antennas are used Comments? Suggestions? Theory? Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Road Boswell, PA 15531 skipp025 wrote: Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Telewave
The cable length can be tricky. (I use all Type-N connectors and Andrew FSJ2 Velocity of .83) • First you have to find the velocity factor of the cable you are using. • Then you get the ¼ wave length in free space and multiply by the velocity factor. • Then you measure from the center of the TEE connectors. Try this... First get the ¼ wave length in free space for your frequency from this link: http://www.csgnetwork.com/freqwavelengthcalc.html Then multiply by the velocity factor of the cable you are using which should get you really close to what you want. http://www.picwire.com/technical/paper2.html http://www.rmvhf.org/thinktank/velocity.html For example 146.000 MHz = 20.21917808219178 inches X .695 for RG-400 = 14.0523287671232871 inches for ¼ wave. 14.052 Inches of RG-400 should be very close to a ¼ wave @ 146.000 MHz I used this method to make some ¼ wave jumpers using Andrew FSJ2-50B, when we checked the cables with an Anritsu Site-master, I was only 2 degrees off from a perfect ¼ wave on my frequency. CABLE VF RG-8 .66 LMR-400.85 RG-8X .84 RG-11 .75 RG-58 .66 LMR-195.83 RG-59 .82 RG-62 .84 RG-174 .66 RG-213 .66 RG-214 .66 RG-217 .66 RG-218 .66 RG-316 .79 RG-400 .695 LMR-500.85 LMR-600.86 1/2 HARD .81 7/8 HARD .81 LDF all ver .88 THEN... You have to measure from the center of the TEE connectors so you actual cable will be a little shorter than the example length of 14.052 inches depending on the connector(s) PL-259 or Type-N etc. If you follow this method and make the cables ¼ wave from the center of the tee’s or ports on your duplexer (depending on the model) you should find it will tune up on your frequency very well. Good Luck, Steve ~KA1RCI st...@ka1rci.net From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ralph S. Turk Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 8:45 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Telewave Anybody in the group know the correct length of the coax for the Telewave TPRD 1556 duplexer. Need cavity interconnect and combiner lengths. RG 142 Original frequency 155.5 New Frequency 146.8/146.2 Ralph, W7HSG
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Again, just like a spur. Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? Might also be worth putting the Spectrum Analyzer on your input to see if you can see it drifting through the frequency - or drifting onto it. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before we get into the math, an important question that needs to be answered is whether or not this mix occurs when your repeater transmitter is unkeyed. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation I have paging intermod from 157.740 Mhz. My receiver is on 144.540 Mhz. I'm 100% sure there is another transmitter involved in the mix because sometimes the pager is transmitting and I have no interference. I have an intermod calculator program but it wants all the known transmitters and the target receiver. But I need to solve for an unknown transmitter. Is there a way to calculate the other possible soruce(s)? -- Tim :wq Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.783 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
My Elmer, W6NTK (SK) his son worked for PGE. I was 12 years old then but I noticed at his power panel he had a bank of capacitors wired into his panel. He explained to me he had these on to eliminate the big surge when the well pump or any big loads came on. He asked if I remember seeing these capacitors along the power lines. He explained that the power system was a transmission system and that to keep the system in tune they had to add capacitance along the long runs to balance the system. And that he was doing the same on his panel. I asked so does this lower your bill and he said not really but it can reduce spikes in the draw. He then tried to explain some math and being 12 that started sounding like school work and he lost me. Thank you for brining this up I have not thought about my Elmer in a long time. I wish I had paid more attention to some of the things he taught. Hopefully the group can turn mu 12 year old memory into some theory this old dog can chew on. Maybe I can use this info to reduce power usage at the repeater. :-) -Kevin _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ae6zm Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:18 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill When in comes to matters of science, there will always be some who step forward with anecdotal 'evidence' that they have experienced something that contradicts accepted scientific knowledge. Using caps to reduce your power bill is one of those myths. Your power meter is a true watt meter, and is very carefully designed and tested to measure, react to and record only true watts, and not react to reactive power. (pun!!) Yes, installing corrective capacitors can reduce your power bill, but not because it changes your meter reading; it doesn't. For industrial users, a poor PF results in penalty charges from the utility, and improving the PF by adding capacitive VAs ( or KVAs) can reduce the penalties, thereby reducing your bill. This is not really a repeater topic, but power bills are a real part of repeater use, so it is useful to understand the real 'science'. Wes AE6ZM VE7ELE GROL/RADAR ARRL Technical Specialist Lincoln, CA CM98iv --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Bon Hal bhbru...@... wrote: Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
I'm looking at the pager freq with the SA. The dev looks wide to me. I see about 15 Khz peak to peak. Is that normal? Also I see much bigger spikes. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Again, just like a spur. Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? Might also be worth putting the Spectrum Analyzer on your input to see if you can see it drifting through the frequency - or drifting onto it. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before we get into the math, an important question that needs to be answered is whether or not this mix occurs when your repeater transmitter is unkeyed. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation I have paging intermod from 157.740 Mhz. My receiver is on 144.540 Mhz. I'm 100% sure there is another transmitter involved in the mix because sometimes the pager is transmitting and I have no interference. I have an intermod calculator program but it wants all the known transmitters and the target receiver. But I need to solve for an unknown transmitter. Is there a way to calculate the other possible soruce(s)? -- Tim :wq Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links -- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.783 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. Does the repeater run CTCSS on the input? If so, is the behavior the same if CTCSS is off? (CTCSS might clip the signal off at one end or the other, even though the receiver is hearing the whole thing) Can you hear the signal using a completely different receiver on the same frequency at the site? (Preferably one that uses a different first IF frequency, tests to see if it is getting into the IF or if the intermod product is an image rather than the actual receive frequency) Does it happen out of the blue with the repeater inactive, or only when the repeater has been in-use? (Tests to see if the repeater transmitter is part of the mix) Does the paging sound exactly the same, or might you be hearing a link transmitter? (many are on 72 MHz, exactly half your input frequency) Matthew Kaufman Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Spectra Help
Does anyone have a detailed parts manual in PDF form that covers the dreaded FAIL 001 code? All caps are replaced so it's the Synthesizer being out of lock and I need to fix that. Regards, -Frank C.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Yes the repeater has CTCSS but I turn it off for testing. When on the CTCSS will false but that's not what I'm talking about when I say that the repeater sometimes keys up after the beginning of the page. I'm going to take another repeater which has a different 1st IF up and test with just as you suggest. It's a VXR-5000 with a 1st IF of 21.6 Mhz and a 2nd IF of 455. The current repeater (a Micor) has a 11.7 IF and is single conversion. Yes, it happens out of the blue. I'm confident that the repeater TX is not part of the mix. The paging does sound a bit different. I've been think that's due to the wide dev (15 Khz plus) and that different receivers would hear that differently. I talked to the tech and he told me the system has a satellite feed. He also told me the same feed goes to their transmitter on 929.0375 Mhz. Basically, there is one controller for both the 929.0375 and the 157.74 transmitters. They also have two other transmitters on 929.6375 and 931.6625. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 9:18 AM, Matthew Kaufman wrote: Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. Does the repeater run CTCSS on the input? If so, is the behavior the same if CTCSS is off? (CTCSS might clip the signal off at one end or the other, even though the receiver is hearing the whole thing) Can you hear the signal using a completely different receiver on the same frequency at the site? (Preferably one that uses a different first IF frequency, tests to see if it is getting into the IF or if the intermod product is an image rather than the actual receive frequency) Does it happen out of the blue with the repeater inactive, or only when the repeater has been in-use? (Tests to see if the repeater transmitter is part of the mix) Does the paging sound exactly the same, or might you be hearing a link transmitter? (many are on 72 MHz, exactly half your input frequency) Matthew Kaufman Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
I haven't noticed a hum. There's more of a scream on it. It's POCSAG. Is that analog? The dev is basically 15 Khz but there is, what I going to call splatter that is like 30 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, MCH wrote: Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input?
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
The deviation is 15 kHz, or you're seeing 15 kHz of bandwidth on the spectrum analyzer? The latter would be normal, the former wouldn't be. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:33 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation I haven't noticed a hum. There's more of a scream on it. It's POCSAG. Is that analog? The dev is basically 15 Khz but there is, what I going to call splatter that is like 30 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, MCH wrote: Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input?
[Repeater-Builder] Hallicrafter Radios
Hello, Am looking for a Service Manual for an CRX-1.Have collected this Radio along with CRX-2(which I have the Service Manual)Looking for CRX-3 the Aviatin radio to buy.That may be impossible as not any made.TKs Wesley AB8KD 73
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Hallicrafter Radios
Correction CRX-3 Not many made - Original Message - From: wesleybazell To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 2:03 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Hallicrafter Radios Hello, Am looking for a Service Manual for an CRX-1.Have collected this Radio along with CRX-2(which I have the Service Manual)Looking for CRX-3 the Aviatin radio to buy.That may be impossible as not any made.TKs Wesley AB8KD 73
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Tim, Digital paging (mostly POCSAG coding these days) is FSK and will easily occupy 15KHz of bandwidth. On a Service Monitor deviation screen you will see a square wave pattern that looks like it is overdeviated unless you are very close to the transmitter in question. Read on and you will see why a deviation measurement is of little use. On a Spectrum Analyser you will see a single spike that jumps back and forth between a freq higher than the channel center and a freq lower than the channel center. The typical digital paging transmitter settings are +4KHz above the assigned freq and - 4KHz below the assigned freq. If the system uses multiple transmitters the + and - settings may be asymmetrical to allow for slight offsets between transmitters. As demodulated at the paging receiver the signal is a 1200 baud pattern of square waves. Newer systems such as FLEX may have two levels of + and - with settings of say +4K +2K -2K and -4K. If the problem is the digital paging transmitter you need to determine how close the transmitter is to your installation. Paging receivers represent a compromised antenna system and most paging transmitters compensate for the shortcomings of the receiver by sending at very high power levels. If the paging transmitter is close to you, it might be meeting spec but the low level grundge could be causing you problems. Milt N3LTQ Quoting Tim Sawyer tisaw...@gmail.com: I'm looking at the pager freq with the SA. The dev looks wide to me. I see about 15 Khz peak to peak. Is that normal? Also I see much bigger spikes. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Again, just like a spur. Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? Might also be worth putting the Spectrum Analyzer on your input to see if you can see it drifting through the frequency - or drifting onto it. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before we get into the math, an important question that needs to be answered is whether or not this mix occurs when your repeater transmitter is unkeyed. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Intermod Calculation I have paging intermod from 157.740 Mhz. My receiver is on 144.540 Mhz. I'm 100% sure there is another transmitter involved in the mix because sometimes the pager is transmitting and I have no interference. I have an intermod calculator program but it wants all the known transmitters and the target receiver. But I need to solve for an unknown transmitter. Is there a way
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
The utility I used to work for did a lot of testing on the get free electricity devices over the years. None worked unless the customer had PF issues, even then, it didn't do much. That simple spinning disk electric meter is surprisingly accurate and hard to fool. Bill From: Chuck Kelsey wb2...@roadrunner.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, August 20, 2010 8:14:14 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill That's my take, but someone on here insisted otherwise based on testing he had done. I spoke with an electrical engineer who said the same thing, but then he wondered out loud if it could be possible if the power factor was shifted to an extreme with a spinning disk meter. He opined that an electronic meter wouldn't be fooled. Of course shifting the PF to an extreme would be a basis for utility company action. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer gascha...@comcast.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:06 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill You won't see any difference. The electric meter reads true power not VA. 73 Gary K4FMX -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater- buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Kelsey Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 8:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill A while back, maybe a year or two ago, there was a discussion on here where a list member had success adding a capacitor to his electric service which reduced his bill. It was debated for a while. Anyway, I am wondering if the utility company ever came and replaced the spinning disk meters with electronic versions, and if so, what the outcome was. Could the original poster respond either here or privately? I just today had a similar discussion with another ham who tried essentially the same thing with no success - only his was a commercial model, so it cost him considerably more. Chuck WB2EDV Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3084 - Release Date: 08/20/10 14:35:00 Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Before you said 15 kHz P-P (IOW bandwidth). Now you're saying 15 kHz deviation. 15 kHz deviation would be way too high. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I haven't noticed a hum. There's more of a scream on it. It's POCSAG. Is that analog? The dev is basically 15 Khz but there is, what I going to call splatter that is like 30 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, MCH wrote: Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.783 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
The deviation is 15 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Jeff DePolo wrote: The deviation is 15 kHz, or you're seeing 15 kHz of bandwidth on the spectrum analyzer? The latter would be normal, the former wouldn't be. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 1:33 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation I haven't noticed a hum. There's more of a scream on it. It's POCSAG. Is that analog? The dev is basically 15 Khz but there is, what I going to call splatter that is like 30 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, MCH wrote: Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
My service monitor (HP 8924C) has both a deviation meter and an oscilloscope to display the demodulated audio. Both the numbers on the dev meter and the peak to peak on the scope read about 15 Khz. I see another paging system (152.84) that shows the same 15 Khz dev, and a bunch of other ones that show 5 Khz dev. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:18 PM, MCH wrote: Before you said 15 kHz P-P (IOW bandwidth). Now you're saying 15 kHz deviation. 15 kHz deviation would be way too high. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I haven't noticed a hum. There's more of a scream on it. It's POCSAG. Is that analog? The dev is basically 15 Khz but there is, what I going to call splatter that is like 30 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, MCH wrote: Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? -- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.783 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
This is a reply to the power issue from a friend of mine: Yes, it's true. Heavy industry uses this technique to reduce their electrical utility costs. Steel production is an example. Some utility companies require that customers with large inductive loads use and pay for capacitor banks to correct the plant's power factor. The issue arises when large inductive loads are connected to the electrical grid. For example, a large horsepower electric motor presents two loads to the grid. One load is the energy consumed or dissipated in work. The other load is inductive. The inductive load stores electrical energy, does not dissipate it, and it is returned to the grid. It can't be helped. It is built into the design of electric motors. This is understandable. We understand that practical electric motor armatures are turned by a strong magnetic field. That magnetic field is produced by large inductors. As an electrical circuit, you can visualize the motor as a resistor in series with an inductor driven by a sine wave 60 Hz alternating voltage source (AC). On the positive half cycle voltage swing (0-180 degrees), electrical energy is dissipated in the load, the resistor. In the resistor the energy is dissipated in heat. In a motor, the energy is dissipated in work done. The inductor stores electrical energy on the positive half cycle then returns the energy to the grid on the negative half cycle (180-360 degrees). The resistor again draws and dissipates energy on the negative half cycle. In the electrical circuit analogy, if the inductor was zero Henrys and the Resistor was non zero Ohms, the Power Factor (PF) is defined as 1.0, or unity. This is a purely dissipative load. If the inductor was non zero Henrys and the Resistor was zero Ohms, the PF is defined as 0.0. This is a purely inductive load. In a practical circuit with some inductance, L, and some resistance, R, PF therefore varies between 0.0 and 1.0. For given values of L and R, PF can be measured or computed. The utility company sells the energy dissipated in a load. If PF = 1.0, the utility company sells all the energy it supplies. As PF decreases due to inductance, the load increasingly stores and returns larger amounts of energy to the utility company. The utility has to generate the additional power needed to charge the connected inductive loads, even if the energy is returned to the grid. The utility needs significantly more capacity and therefore greater investment and operating capital. Worse yet, the increased current flow causes more dissipative energy loss in the line resistance. This inefficiency is a measurable loss of money to the utility. Adding capacitance across and close to the load helps a lot. Briefly and simply, it works like this. The utility initially charges the capacitor. Then, when the inductive load draws current, the capacitor supplies it. When the inductor dumps its stored energy, the capacitor takes it and recharges. AC cycle after cycle the capacitor and inductor exchange stored energy. The utility company does not have to generate the additional energy. The load continues to dissipate energy on each half cycle, no change there. This is called Power Factor Correction. With PF correction, the utility supplies mostly dissipative energy and sees a PF approximately = 1.0. With the capacitance located close to the load, excessive line energy loss is eliminated too. You might have seen these capacitor banks on a utility pole outside a factory. Entrepreneurs have applied this industrial technology to the home. You can buy a franchise and sell PF correction as a retail consumer product. The franchise provides all the equipment and marketing materials. I have seen a franchise website with convincing evidence of a decrease in a utility bill. The utility company has to supply the electrical energy a home draws, whether the homeowner uses it all or not. The idea is that PF correction can reduce the load to nearly pure dissipation, reducing a homeowners utility bill. So, the technology works. Is is cost effective? It is for a large industrial load. Home installation requires labor of a licensed electrician, a capacitor bank, and wiring. This sounds expensive. Maybe it will pay off over a long period. It depends on how inductive a load your home presents. To me, there is a larger picture. We are in an era of energy conservation. PF correction for the home sounds to me like a stimulus for increased electrical energy consumption. PF correction controls your cost of increased consumption. A homeowner might install a bigger air conditioner, put an additional refrigerator in the basement or garage. Motors and transformers are inductive loads, presumably having some impact on PF. California has asked people to unplug the extra refrigerators in garages to conserve energy. Now the Energy Police are after us about Vampire Power - all those small
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
I have noticed the carrier appears to jump between +4 and -4 Khz of center. The transmitter is about 75 yards from me. It's running 225 watts according to the tech. The interference is pretty strong. It competes with my base station on low power. I'm 25 miles from the repeater. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:25 AM, men...@pa.net wrote: Tim, Digital paging (mostly POCSAG coding these days) is FSK and will easily occupy 15KHz of bandwidth. On a Service Monitor deviation screen you will see a square wave pattern that looks like it is overdeviated unless you are very close to the transmitter in question. Read on and you will see why a deviation measurement is of little use. On a Spectrum Analyser you will see a single spike that jumps back and forth between a freq higher than the channel center and a freq lower than the channel center. The typical digital paging transmitter settings are +4KHz above the assigned freq and - 4KHz below the assigned freq. If the system uses multiple transmitters the + and - settings may be asymmetrical to allow for slight offsets between transmitters. As demodulated at the paging receiver the signal is a 1200 baud pattern of square waves. Newer systems such as FLEX may have two levels of + and - with settings of say +4K +2K -2K and -4K. If the problem is the digital paging transmitter you need to determine how close the transmitter is to your installation. Paging receivers represent a compromised antenna system and most paging transmitters compensate for the shortcomings of the receiver by sending at very high power levels. If the paging transmitter is close to you, it might be meeting spec but the low level grundge could be causing you problems. Milt N3LTQ Quoting Tim Sawyer tisaw...@gmail.com: I'm looking at the pager freq with the SA. The dev looks wide to me. I see about 15 Khz peak to peak. Is that normal? Also I see much bigger spikes. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Again, just like a spur. Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? Might also be worth putting the Spectrum Analyzer on your input to see if you can see it drifting through the frequency - or drifting onto it. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before we get into the math, an important question that needs to be answered is whether or not this mix occurs when your repeater transmitter is unkeyed. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:36 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
There is something wrong with your SM, then, as it should not show a deviation of 15 kHz on a signal that is 15 kHz P-P unless it's only deviating in one direction from the carrier. The +/- 4 kHz sounds about right. But, it should be centered around the carrier frequency of 157.740 (Or, on 157.736 and 157.744). It would also equate to a P-P of about 8 kHz as there is nothing but a shifted carrier involved. Regardless, I suspect none of this relates to your problem. If it's only 75 yards from you, I bet it's a very weak spur. It's likely down far enough that it's legal, too. If that is the case, the only thing that will solve it is putting a filter on its TX to notch your repeater RX frequency (good luck getting that to happen if it's not on the same site - and often if it is on the same site). Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: My service monitor (HP 8924C) has both a deviation meter and an oscilloscope to display the demodulated audio. Both the numbers on the dev meter and the peak to peak on the scope read about 15 Khz. I see another paging system (152.84) that shows the same 15 Khz dev, and a bunch of other ones that show 5 Khz dev. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:18 PM, MCH wrote: Before you said 15 kHz P-P (IOW bandwidth). Now you're saying 15 kHz deviation. 15 kHz deviation would be way too high. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I haven't noticed a hum. There's more of a scream on it. It's POCSAG. Is that analog? The dev is basically 15 Khz but there is, what I going to call splatter that is like 30 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, MCH wrote: Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? -- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 9.0.783 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Very nice explanation of the issue. Just to clarify a point or two, industrial users benefit directly from PF correction of their plants largely because the utility supplier either: a. doesnt' penalize them for low PF, and/or b. credits them for PF above say .90. Payback for PF correction equipment for them is often very fast, maybe just a few months. The residential or light commercial user's PF is not tracked nor billed, so there is very little to gain money-wise by raising PF. Laryn K8TVZ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
You might be able to get the paging company to swap out the transmitter or at least the PA. That may solve the problem, too. Or, if you can show them the interference, and they are sympathetic, they may fix it. One bright side: Paging companies are going the way of the dinosaur, so it may not be on the air much longer. There used to be a couple dozen paging companies in my area. Now there are 5 or 6 left - mostly on UHF/900. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I have noticed the carrier appears to jump between +4 and -4 Khz of center. The transmitter is about 75 yards from me. It's running 225 watts according to the tech. The interference is pretty strong. It competes with my base station on low power. I'm 25 miles from the repeater. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:25 AM, men...@pa.net mailto:men...@pa.net wrote: Tim, Digital paging (mostly POCSAG coding these days) is FSK and will easily occupy 15KHz of bandwidth. On a Service Monitor deviation screen you will see a square wave pattern that looks like it is overdeviated unless you are very close to the transmitter in question. Read on and you will see why a deviation measurement is of little use. On a Spectrum Analyser you will see a single spike that jumps back and forth between a freq higher than the channel center and a freq lower than the channel center. The typical digital paging transmitter settings are +4KHz above the assigned freq and - 4KHz below the assigned freq. If the system uses multiple transmitters the + and - settings may be asymmetrical to allow for slight offsets between transmitters. As demodulated at the paging receiver the signal is a 1200 baud pattern of square waves. Newer systems such as FLEX may have two levels of + and - with settings of say +4K +2K -2K and -4K. If the problem is the digital paging transmitter you need to determine how close the transmitter is to your installation. Paging receivers represent a compromised antenna system and most paging transmitters compensate for the shortcomings of the receiver by sending at very high power levels. If the paging transmitter is close to you, it might be meeting spec but the low level grundge could be causing you problems. Milt N3LTQ Quoting Tim Sawyer tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com: I'm looking at the pager freq with the SA. The dev looks wide to me. I see about 15 Khz peak to peak. Is that normal? Also I see much bigger spikes. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Again, just like a spur. Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? Might also be worth putting the Spectrum Analyzer on your input to see if you can see it drifting through the frequency - or drifting onto it. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net mailto:mch%40nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: Does the entire page happen, or does it abruptly stop part way through some of the time? Partial page would indicate to me that another transmitter is in the mix and dropping before the pager does. However, I had a situation where there were four paging sites scattered in the county on the same frequency and one of the transmitters was spurious and getting into my receiver. In that case, I always heard the entire page, but only when that particular transmitter came up. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim - WD6AWP tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation It occurs whether or not the repeater transmitter is keyed. ---
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
The meter reads P-P just like the scope. I generally set dev with the meter and confirm it on the scope. But your right, this really doesn't matter. I was just making sure they didn't have the dev out of wack and from what I gather here they don't. We're going up Tuesday with another repeater and the 8924c to check it out. I'll be looking to see what comes down the antenna. If there are no big signals that shouldn't be there, and we can see/hear the paging on channel, and I there is no activity on 151.14 (actually 151.145 is San Bernardino County) or 170.94 (ULS FCC DB shows nothing) then I'll assume it's a spur. I have talked to the tech and he was friendly. I'm going to contact him again and see if he will come up the hill with us and inspect his transmitter. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:59 PM, MCH wrote: There is something wrong with your SM, then, as it should not show a deviation of 15 kHz on a signal that is 15 kHz P-P unless it's only deviating in one direction from the carrier. The +/- 4 kHz sounds about right. But, it should be centered around the carrier frequency of 157.740 (Or, on 157.736 and 157.744). It would also equate to a P-P of about 8 kHz as there is nothing but a shifted carrier involved. Regardless, I suspect none of this relates to your problem. If it's only 75 yards from you, I bet it's a very weak spur. It's likely down far enough that it's legal, too. If that is the case, the only thing that will solve it is putting a filter on its TX to notch your repeater RX frequency (good luck getting that to happen if it's not on the same site - and often if it is on the same site). Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: My service monitor (HP 8924C) has both a deviation meter and an oscilloscope to display the demodulated audio. Both the numbers on the dev meter and the peak to peak on the scope read about 15 Khz. I see another paging system (152.84) that shows the same 15 Khz dev, and a bunch of other ones that show 5 Khz dev. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:18 PM, MCH wrote: Before you said 15 kHz P-P (IOW bandwidth). Now you're saying 15 kHz deviation. 15 kHz deviation would be way too high. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I haven't noticed a hum. There's more of a scream on it. It's POCSAG. Is that analog? The dev is basically 15 Khz but there is, what I going to call splatter that is like 30 Khz. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:14 AM, MCH wrote: Many times (but not all), there will be a grungy sound with the spur. Think of a very loud 60 cycle hum. And 15 kHz is higher than normal. I think the typical shift is 5 kHz (+/- 2.5 kHz) if we are talking about digital paging. Analog might be 15 kHz, as the bandwidth limit would be 16 kHz. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by grungy. What are you getting at? -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? -- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 9.0.783 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00 Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
Apparently, from what the tech said, this one is slated to go off the air in coming months, too. But I can't wait that long as our repeater is basically useless at this point. And you never know, it might take them longer than that to actually kill it. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 1:02 PM, MCH wrote: One bright side: Paging companies are going the way of the dinosaur, so it may not be on the air much longer. There used to be a couple dozen paging companies in my area. Now there are 5 or 6 left - mostly on UHF/900.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
We had a pager spur problem with our repeater (no pl). The problem would come and go. We determined it happened mostly with time of day (outside temperature). Sometime it was just a short 1 second event and sometimes it would hold for a bit more (maybe 2 -5 sec). We setup a satellite multimode radio (actually dial in the frequency with widest bandwidth setting) and monitored the repeater input with a tape recorder and vox. We did this to capture the audio so we could listen to characteristics and THE CW CALLSIGN. We captured enough of the callsign that we were able to indentify the whole call (and freq) from the FCC database. With that, we were able to monitor the repeater and the pager for hits. Yes, it did hit some times and not others. The reason was, it was caused by an unstable spur that drifted up and down the ham band with temperature and the amount of pager traffic. It was also hitting other repeaters as it drifted but most of the other repeaters had pl. There was a chain of pagers using the same freq and callsign and we had to figure out which tower it was. We used a beam antenna and chased the spur up/down the band until we were able to get a definite direction. The next step as to visit the site AREA with an HT and just scan the ham repeater input freqs during the likely time of day. Bingo, the spur was loud and clear!. Of course the pager owner was in denial but being a pest for a couple of weeks got the problem removed. They claim it was a spur in the final PA that had been serviced just at the time the problem started. They replaced the PA. Hope this story helps. Tom
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
The guy did ok on the first part explaining how power factor works but fell down when it comes to the save money part. The utilities do not charge you extra or give you a break if you do or don't have any power factor correction. Unless you are an industrial customer. I have seen demonstrations at shows where the guy trying to sell consumers power factor correction devices had a motor and an ammeter showing current draw. He then switches in a capacitor and shows you how the current drops and shows you how volts times amps reduces the wattage used. Only problem is the electric meter doesn't care what the power factor is! So the utility will bill you the same amount if you use power factor correction or not in your home. The other thing involved if you are going to do power factor correction is that it needs to be done on EACH motor or inductive device. If you just hang a capacitor across the main power line of the proper size when all motors are running it will correct that. But when a motor or other inductive device is shut down and the capacitor is still across the line, now it will have a capacitive load rather than an inductive load. Same problem; capacitive current that is out of phase. You can hook a large AC capacitor across your power line and measure the current thru it. It may look like you are drawing a lot of power thru it but the meter will not see it. Yes it cost the utility more to generate that extra current whether it be capacitive or inductive but you don't pay for it. If the utility was really worried about it they would give incentives for high power factor equipment or they would bill you like they do in industry. We are small potatoes to them. Trying to sell power factor correction to home owners and small business' is a scam. You save nothing on your bill! 73 Gary K4FMX _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bon Hal Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 2:39 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill This is a reply to the power issue from a friend of mine: Yes, it's true. Heavy industry uses this technique to reduce their electrical utility costs. Steel production is an example. Some utility companies require that customers with large inductive loads use and pay for capacitor banks to correct the plant's power factor. The issue arises when large inductive loads are connected to the electrical grid. For example, a large horsepower electric motor presents two loads to the grid. One load is the energy consumed or dissipated in work. The other load is inductive. The inductive load stores electrical energy, does not dissipate it, and it is returned to the grid. It can't be helped. It is built into the design of electric motors. This is understandable. We understand that practical electric motor armatures are turned by a strong magnetic field. That magnetic field is produced by large inductors. As an electrical circuit, you can visualize the motor as a resistor in series with an inductor driven by a sine wave 60 Hz alternating voltage source (AC). On the positive half cycle voltage swing (0-180 degrees), electrical energy is dissipated in the load, the resistor. In the resistor the energy is dissipated in heat. In a motor, the energy is dissipated in work done. The inductor stores electrical energy on the positive half cycle then returns the energy to the grid on the negative half cycle (180-360 degrees). The resistor again draws and dissipates energy on the negative half cycle. In the electrical circuit analogy, if the inductor was zero Henrys and the Resistor was non zero Ohms, the Power Factor (PF) is defined as 1.0, or unity. This is a purely dissipative load. If the inductor was non zero Henrys and the Resistor was zero Ohms, the PF is defined as 0.0. This is a purely inductive load. In a practical circuit with some inductance, L, and some resistance, R, PF therefore varies between 0.0 and 1.0. For given values of L and R, PF can be measured or computed. The utility company sells the energy dissipated in a load. If PF = 1.0, the utility company sells all the energy it supplies. As PF decreases due to inductance, the load increasingly stores and returns larger amounts of energy to the utility company. The utility has to generate the additional power needed to charge the connected inductive loads, even if the energy is returned to the grid. The utility needs significantly more capacity and therefore greater investment and operating capital. Worse yet, the increased current flow causes more dissipative energy loss in the line resistance. This inefficiency is a measurable loss of money to the utility. Adding capacitance across and close to the load helps a lot. Briefly and simply, it works like this. The utility initially charges the
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Guess I should have done a message archive search. I didn't mean to start all this. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill The guy did ok on the first part explaining how power factor works but fell down when it comes to the save money part. The utilities do not charge you extra or give you a break if you do or don't have any power factor correction. Unless you are an industrial customer. I have seen demonstrations at shows where the guy trying to sell consumers power factor correction devices had a motor and an ammeter showing current draw. He then switches in a capacitor and shows you how the current drops and shows you how volts times amps reduces the wattage used. Only problem is the electric meter doesn't care what the power factor is! So the utility will bill you the same amount if you use power factor correction or not in your home. The other thing involved if you are going to do power factor correction is that it needs to be done on EACH motor or inductive device. If you just hang a capacitor across the main power line of the proper size when all motors are running it will correct that. But when a motor or other inductive device is shut down and the capacitor is still across the line, now it will have a capacitive load rather than an inductive load. Same problem; capacitive current that is out of phase. You can hook a large AC capacitor across your power line and measure the current thru it. It may look like you are drawing a lot of power thru it but the meter will not see it. Yes it cost the utility more to generate that extra current whether it be capacitive or inductive but you don't pay for it. If the utility was really worried about it they would give incentives for high power factor equipment or they would bill you like they do in industry. We are small potatoes to them. Trying to sell power factor correction to home owners and small business' is a scam. You save nothing on your bill! 73 Gary K4FMX
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gary Schafer gascha...@... wrote: The other thing involved if you are going to do power factor correction is that it needs to be done on EACH motor or inductive device. That's the best way, and we did do that, but it can be useful to float some amount of capacitance across the line. We did this where I worked. We had five primary substations that we owned, with their (obviously) inductive transformers, plus enough random loads going on and off all night. Our PF maybe have been above 1.0 at times, but we didn't worry about it. Our billed PF was always above .90, so we earned a nice $100-150 credit to our monthly bill. Trying to sell power factor correction to home owners and small business' is a scam. You save nothing on your bill! Yep! 73 Gary K4FMX Laryn K8TVZ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
How long has the pager been in operation? If it has been there for a long time either something changed in the pager setup or something changed on your end. What you have is a case of RF overload. No other frequencies are involved, not even your own transmitter. 225 watts RF + how much antenna gain on the pager end or is that the total ERP of the pager? What is the difference in vertical height between the pager transmit antenna and your repeater antenna? What sort of filtering are you using? Duplexer? Dual antennas? The HP8924 in the Spectrum Analyser mode will show you the transmitted frequency shifting between the upper and lower limits. The deviation measurement will be useless since you are not measuring deviation of an analog signal. Setting up a digital paging transmitter usually involves activating a test mode which will place the unmodulated TX signal at the the limits. The adjustment is made to set the amount of shift from the center channel according to the enginnering for the system. When the incoming signal from the paging terminal is received it causes the transmitter to shift to one of the two limits which can be thought of as a 1 or a 0. Ironically the systems I saw usually used AFSK on the link from the paging terminal (modem to modem). If there is more than one transmitter involved measuring off the air cannot give you an accurate deviation measurement since any hetrodyne between the two or more carriers will also be seen by the service monitor and will distort the measurement. Milt N3LTQ Quoting Tim Sawyer tisaw...@gmail.com: I have noticed the carrier appears to jump between +4 and -4 Khz of center. The transmitter is about 75 yards from me. It's running 225 watts according to the tech. The interference is pretty strong. It competes with my base station on low power. I'm 25 miles from the repeater. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:25 AM, men...@pa.net wrote: Tim, Digital paging (mostly POCSAG coding these days) is FSK and will easily occupy 15KHz of bandwidth. On a Service Monitor deviation screen you will see a square wave pattern that looks like it is overdeviated unless you are very close to the transmitter in question. Read on and you will see why a deviation measurement is of little use. On a Spectrum Analyser you will see a single spike that jumps back and forth between a freq higher than the channel center and a freq lower than the channel center. The typical digital paging transmitter settings are +4KHz above the assigned freq and - 4KHz below the assigned freq. If the system uses multiple transmitters the + and - settings may be asymmetrical to allow for slight offsets between transmitters. As demodulated at the paging receiver the signal is a 1200 baud pattern of square waves. Newer systems such as FLEX may have two levels of + and - with settings of say +4K +2K -2K and -4K. If the problem is the digital paging transmitter you need to determine how close the transmitter is to your installation. Paging receivers represent a compromised antenna system and most paging transmitters compensate for the shortcomings of the receiver by sending at very high power levels. If the paging transmitter is close to you, it might be meeting spec but the low level grundge could be causing you problems. Milt N3LTQ Quoting Tim Sawyer tisaw...@gmail.com: I'm looking at the pager freq with the SA. The dev looks wide to me. I see about 15 Khz peak to peak. Is that normal? Also I see much bigger spikes. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:59 AM, MCH wrote: Again, just like a spur. Does it have a 'grungy' sound to it when you hear it on your input? Might also be worth putting the Spectrum Analyzer on your input to see if you can see it drifting through the frequency - or drifting onto it. Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: Another tidbit about this problem is that it's clean in the mornings. The paging transmitter can be going off like crazy and the repeater will be totally clean in carrier squelch. As the day progresses it gets worse. -- Tim :wq On Aug 20, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Chuck Kelsey wrote: I agree, if you don't hear anything else in the mix, and it pretty much happens for the full length of the page, it's likely a spur on the paging transmitter, at least that's what I'd be looking at. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation Could be a spur. Can you hear any other audio with the page? (ever) Joe M. Tim Sawyer wrote: It seems to pick up most of the page. Occasionally the beginning is missing or it will get just the very end. It always seems to drop at the same time as the page. -- Tim :wq
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
Well, I tried a search and came up empty. Maybe it was another group. Oh well. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Chuck Kelsey To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill Guess I should have done a message archive search. I didn't mean to start all this. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Gary Schafer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 5:17 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill The guy did ok on the first part explaining how power factor works but fell down when it comes to the save money part. The utilities do not charge you extra or give you a break if you do or don't have any power factor correction. Unless you are an industrial customer. SNIP
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Tim Sawyer tisaw...@... wrote: Basically, there is one controller for both the 929.0375 and the 157.74 transmitters. They also have two other transmitters on 929.6375 and 931.6625. Are the 929.0375 and 929.6375 transmitters at the same site as your repeater? I'm seeing 600 kc. difference there... Laryn K8TVZ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
If that was the issue I'd think every other two meter repeater on the hill (and there are many) would have the my same problem. But they don't. -- Tim :wq On Aug 21, 2010, at 7:27 PM, larynl2 wrote: --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Tim Sawyer tisaw...@... wrote: Basically, there is one controller for both the 929.0375 and the 157.74 transmitters. They also have two other transmitters on 929.6375 and 931.6625. Are the 929.0375 and 929.6375 transmitters at the same site as your repeater? I'm seeing 600 kc. difference there... Laryn K8TVZ
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Intermod Calculation
On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:38 PM, men...@pa.net wrote: How long has the pager been in operation? If it has been there for a long time either something changed in the pager setup or something changed on your end. We've been having many problems at the site (including a broken tower cross arm, now fixed) for a while now and lots of things have been changing. I'm aware that it could be our problem as likely as theirs. We've been up there for 30 years, don't know how long they have been there, certianly longer than this problem. What you have is a case of RF overload. No other frequencies are involved, not even your own transmitter. I'm thinking spurious pager TX , not our RX overload at this point. But I'm going to go have a look at things. 225 watts RF + how much antenna gain on the pager end or is that the total ERP of the pager? That's power out of the transmitter. I think they are allowed 999 watts ERP but I don't know what theirs is. What is the difference in vertical height between the pager transmit antenna and your repeater antenna? Our antenna is a little higher and about 75 yards away. What sort of filtering are you using? Duplexer? Dual antennas? Split TX/RX antennas about 40 feet apart with near straight vertical separation. Six cavity BP/BR duplexer plus two bottle Wacom filter on the RX. TX has a 3 pole circulator and low pass filter. The HP8924 in the Spectrum Analyser mode will show you the transmitted frequency shifting between the upper and lower limits. The deviation measurement will be useless since you are not measuring deviation of an analog signal. Setting up a digital paging transmitter usually involves activating a test mode which will place the unmodulated TX signal at the the limits. The adjustment is made to set the amount of shift from the center channel according to the enginnering for the system. When the incoming signal from the paging terminal is received it causes the transmitter to shift to one of the two limits which can be thought of as a 1 or a 0. Ironically the systems I saw usually used AFSK on the link from the paging terminal (modem to modem). Yea, ok. I'm not that familiar with what these paging systems look like on the SA. It looked odd to me. But the consensus here seems to be that dev is ok. I did see another paging system with this same looking modulation. If there is more than one transmitter involved measuring off the air cannot give you an accurate deviation measurement since any hetrodyne between the two or more carriers will also be seen by the service monitor and will distort the measurement. They do have more than 1 transmitter. I can't tell for sure if I can hear more than one. It's possible.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Low Band Antenna for both 6 10 meters.
And the spray bottle of water, and the newspaper... - Original Message - From: Mike Morris wa6...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:10 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Low Band Antenna for both 6 10 meters. At 09:27 PM 08/20/10, you wrote: skipp025 wrote: (big chunk cut out) Put Great in front of your name yelled out loud and people in a movie house will often throw toilet paper across the room. (It's OK if you don't get the reference and those of you who do, please seek professional help). Hmmm, seems like more than one of us have been spinning the globe at too many midnight movies... And don't forget the unbuttered toast, the bell and the cards. http://www.rockyhorror.com/news/article.php?p=2007122701 I went to the Rialto about a dozen times... the audience (and performers) were nuttier and funnier than the flic... It showed the RHPS every Saturday night midnight from January 1978 to August 2007... 29 years... about 1,400 performances. And it's still run once a month... And the performers are still there. http://findlocal.latimes.com/south-pasadena/home/movie-events/rocky-horror-picture-show-movie-event-4 s.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Spectra Help
Thanks Charles. I found it with a bad RF board. Now I swapped stuff around and now have two 45w Spectras running with FAIL 01/90's Regards, -Frank C. On Aug 21, 2010, at 8:54 PM, Charles Miller wrote: Frank, We had the same problem with some of our units. What we found was there was a problem with the audio amp. Some of the acid got to the traces and caused problems with the data signals to the audio amp. We removed the audio amp, cleaned the board, replaced the amp, and most of the time the problem cleared up. The times it did not, we found other damage in other areas. Hard to find, but if you use a little BLACK LIGHT you should be able to find all the acid. Cleaning it can be a very hard problem. Good luck. Charles Miller -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank C. Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:46 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Spectra Help Does anyone have a detailed parts manual in PDF form that covers the dreaded FAIL 001 code? All caps are replaced so it's the Synthesizer being out of lock and I need to fix that. Regards, -Frank C. Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Motorola Maxtrac Help
Sometime when We let people believe We know everything it will back and bite You , I have a Fellow ham Friend that also has a few Repeaters on the Air and He knows I like and use anything Motorola , Anyway He ask if I knew how to get the Motorola Maxtrac with the 16 Pin out to Go High on CSQ , He said He can get it to go low but not High , He wants to use it as some type of link . Well unfortunately I did not have a Answer , He was older and Smarter So I could not bs Him , I thought I would ask on here How to do it and Forward Him the info Thanks in Advance Don KA9QJG
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill
I have installed capacitors on three of the services at work. These three services have power factor penalties if the power factor is worse that 95%. The farther out of phase it is the larger the penalty. I have been able to bring each service back very close to 95% or better, thus eliminating the penalty to the tune of @ $3000 per month. From: Kevin King kc6...@att.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 9:14:31 AM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill My Elmer, W6NTK (SK) his son worked for PGE. I was 12 years old then but I noticed at his power panel he had a bank of capacitors wired into his panel. He explained to me he had these on to eliminate the big surge when the well pump or any big loads came on. He asked if I remember seeing these capacitors along the power lines. He explained that the power system was a transmission system and that to keep the system in tune they had to add capacitance along the long runs to balance the system. And that he was doing the same on his panel. I asked so does this lower your bill and he said not really but it can reduce spikes in the draw. He then tried to explain some math and being 12 that started sounding like school work and he lost me. Thank you for brining this up I have not thought about my Elmer in a long time. I wish I had paid more attention to some of the things he taught. Hopefully the group can turn mu 12 year old memory into some theory this old dog can chew on. Maybe I can use this info to reduce power usage at the repeater. J -Kevin From:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ae6zm Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:18 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Adding capacitors to lower electric bill When in comes to matters of science, there will always be some who step forward with anecdotal 'evidence' that they have experienced something that contradicts accepted scientific knowledge. Using caps to reduce your power bill is one of those myths. Your power meter is a true watt meter, and is very carefully designed and tested to measure, react to and record only true watts, and not react to reactive power. (pun!!) Yes, installing corrective capacitors can reduce your power bill, but not because it changes your meter reading; it doesn't. For industrial users, a poor PF results in penalty charges from the utility, and improving the PF by adding capacitive VAs ( or KVAs) can reduce the penalties, thereby reducing your bill. This is not really a repeater topic, but power bills are a real part of repeater use, so it is useful to understand the real 'science'. Wes AE6ZM VE7ELE GROL/RADAR ARRL Technical Specialist Lincoln , CA CM98iv --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bon Hal bhbru...@... wrote: Bill: Check this out. Is It possible that the device might actually reduce electrical usage? Hal - Original Message - From: Paul Plack To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Adding capacitors to lower electric bill One company supplying power factor correction capacitors promotes their use on inductive loads only, where it might be a legitimate claim: http://www.greenenergycube.com/index.php?support-documentation 73, Paul, AE4KR
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Spectra Help
Does anyone have a detailed parts manual in PDF form that covers the dreaded FAIL 001 code? All caps are replaced so it's the Synthesizer being out of lock and I need to fix that. Regards, -Frank C. 3.1.1 General The synthesizer section includes the prescaler IC (U601), the synthesizer IC (U602), and the reference oscillator (U600). The prescaler and the synthesizer chips are completely controlled by the serial data bus. The prescaler IC provides the following: ⢠Multi-dual modulus prescaler ⢠5-V regulator ⢠Super filter 8.6-V regulator ⢠Fixed divide-by-8 circuit for the reference oscillator ⢠Programmable divide-by-N and charge pump phase detector to support the second injection VCO The synthesizer IC provides: ⢠Reference divider ⢠Phase modulator ⢠Dual-bandwidth adaptive filter ⢠Ramp generator ⢠Sample-and-hold phase detector ⢠Programmable loop divider ⢠Auxiliary output bits for system control
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola Maxtrac Help
Thanks Dick , it is Conventional I think VHF to be used as a link , He said He can program it for Low but not High Thanks Don KA9QJG From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard W. Solomon Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:51 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola Maxtrac Help I haven't done one in a few years, but if it's a conventional radio he can do it in the RSS. 73, Dick, W1KSZ
