Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
I agree. The users would not even notice if you cut the power in half. One 2 meter repeater we took over was running on the 10 watt exciter with the amp bypassed for I don't know how long. The caretaker before we got it bypassed the amp because of desense or intermod or self oscillation issues, we used to have some high powered VHF paging transmitters close by that were exactly 600 Khz apart and no circulator, We are now blessed because they moved to 900. It was only when were replacing the functioning repeater we discovered the amp was bypassed, He never told anyone. tom On 9/7/2010 11:50 PM, Glenn (Butch) Kanvick wrote: Hi John. Sometimes you might not want to tel the others what you do to the repeater, then they cannot complain about any adjustments that you make. Butch, KE7FEL/r On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, W3ML w...@arrl.net mailto:w...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions. I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal. It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about something to do with it. Thanks and 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
More likely he had the radio programmed wrong. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers His antenna could be in a null. It happens, as Murphy is a ham. Joe M.
[Repeater-Builder] Wildfire at the Boulder, CO repeater site
Thought the RB list might be interested in this one. Here's a photo of one of our Colorado Repeater Association repeater sites near Boulder, CO Monday afternoon around 4PM. http://www.9news.com/9slideshows/09-06-10-Boulder-fire-aerials/9703.jpg (Sorry it's small, use your browser's zoom feature to blow it up a bit. In most browsers, you can do this easily by holding down CTRL and rolling your mouse scroll wheel.) As of 7AM, both repeaters (145.46 447.975) are still on-air, running on an authorized connection to a generator on-site. Power was cut to the area quite some time ago. A number of other systems on-site are off-air for unknown reasons, either a mixture of damage and/or simply having no power. I know another person who frequents the list (Mike Mullarky) has gear up there also. Will be interesting to see what damage there is at the site when we can get up there, which really could be weeks... Map of the fire boundaries as of 12:30 yesterday afternoon: http://www.bouldercolorado.gov/files/Communication/fourmile/Four_Mile_Fire_Web_Perimeter_1230.pdf The little circle that jumped the lines (well, there really aren't well-defined fire-lines yet anyway) at the top right is the mountain the repeater system is on. Over 96 structures destroyed already, and counting... and that wasn't a complete count yesterday, according to the Sheriff's Office during a press briefing. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com
[Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK
Hi all, Does anyone have a scanned schematic and/or a pinout diagram for a Maxar 80 lowband? I moving one that is presently at 49.520 MHz, up to 50.065 MHz, but have no idea what the pins are for PTT, etc. There is no microphone or other cables that came with the radio. Thanks for any help. Jeff KP3FT
[Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
Read the repeater first NIMS: 100 200 300 400 700 800 Arrl Extra Class VE HAZ MAT- A O sent from my blackberry mobile device -Original Message- From: wspx472 wpxs...@gmail.com Sender: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:24:15 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
the last time that happened to me I needed a new cable. - Original Message - From: wspx472 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:24 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK
I know that they are available on the Batlabs site... try http://www.batlabs.com/nosynth.html and scroll down to the Moxy section. I believe that the pinouts for the Maxar, Maxar 80, and Moxy were all the same. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ From: KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:58:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi all, Does anyone have a scanned schematic and/or a pinout diagram for a Maxar 80 lowband? I moving one that is presently at 49.520 MHz, up to 50.065 MHz, but have no idea what the pins are for PTT, etc. There is no microphone or other cables that came with the radio. Thanks for any help. Jeff KP3FT
Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK
Hi George, Thanks for the reply. I had downloaded the diagram for the Moxy earlier from that website, but discovered the connector is different for the Maxar 80. Not sure if the pinout #s are the same though. I could spend the money and get a manual, but that is another 20 dollars and more time, plus I don't think I need much information really, since the new target frequency is not much higher than the original frequency and may not need retuning. It's for a beacon transmitter, so RX tuning isn't necessary. Jeff KP3FT --- On Wed, 9/8/10, George Henry ka3...@att.net wrote: From: George Henry ka3...@att.net Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 3:40 PM I know that they are available on the Batlabs site... try http://www.batlabs.com/nosynth.html and scroll down to the Moxy section. I believe that the pinouts for the Maxar, Maxar 80, and Moxy were all the same. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ From: KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:58:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi all, Does anyone have a scanned schematic and/or a pinout diagram for a Maxar 80 lowband? I moving one that is presently at 49.520 MHz, up to 50.065 MHz, but have no idea what the pins are for PTT, etc. There is no microphone or other cables that came with the radio. Thanks for any help. Jeff KP3FT
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
That's what I was trying to do. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gary W. Gibbs ke5...@... wrote: Read the repeater first NIMS: 100 200 300 400 700 800 Arrl Extra Class VE HAZ MAT- A O sent from my blackberry mobile device -Original Message- From: wspx472 wpxs...@... Sender: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:24:15 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
That has happened to me twice and I read it then it would program. Sorry it didn't help you. NIMS: 100 200 300 400 700 800 Arrl Extra Class VE HAZ MAT- A O sent from my blackberry mobile device -Original Message- From: wspx472 wpxs...@gmail.com Sender: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:32:58 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program That's what I was trying to do. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gary W. Gibbs ke5...@... wrote: Read the repeater first NIMS: 100 200 300 400 700 800 Arrl Extra Class VE HAZ MAT- A O sent from my blackberry mobile device -Original Message- From: wspx472 wpxs...@... Sender: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:24:15 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
[Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
What repeater are you running? Is it a GE Mastr II by chance? Andy From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 03:11 PM 9/8/2010, RichardK wrote: Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. ---The WP-639 is spec'd at only 80 db of isolation @ a 600 kHz split. At 100 watts, that simply isn't enough to prevent desense. You need more isolation Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 04:38 PM 9/8/2010, Andrew Seybold wrote: What repeater are you running? Is it a GE Mastr II by chance? ---You hinting at the issue of Mastr II amp going spurious when the power is turned down too far? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK
Hi George, If you don't mind going to the trouble, that would be great. Just verifying if the pin number/functions are the same as the Moxy would be good because I already have the Moxy pinout. 73 Jeff KP3FT --- On Wed, 9/8/10, George Henry ka3...@att.net wrote: From: George Henry ka3...@att.net Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:45 PM I think I have a Maxar 80 manual at the office... I will check tomorrow morning. I think the only real difference in the connectors is that the Maxar 80 connector has 2 large pins at the top for power, while the Moxy has all pins the same size, and uses the first 2 in the 2nd row for power. All the metering, audio, and PTT pins are the same... I *THINK*... - Original Message - From: Jeff KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi George, Thanks for the reply. I had downloaded the diagram for the Moxy earlier from that website, but discovered the connector is different for the Maxar 80. Not sure if the pinout #s are the same though. I could spend the money and get a manual, but that is another 20 dollars and more time, plus I don't think I need much information really, since the new target frequency is not much higher than the original frequency and may not need retuning. It's for a beacon transmitter, so RX tuning isn't necessary. Jeff KP3FT --- On Wed, 9/8/10, George Henry ka3...@att.net wrote: From: George Henry ka3...@att.net Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 3:40 PM I know that they are available on the Batlabs site... try http://www.batlabs.com/nosynth.html and scroll down to the Moxy section. I believe that the pinouts for the Maxar, Maxar 80, and Moxy were all the same. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ From: KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:58:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi all, Does anyone have a scanned schematic and/or a pinout diagram for a Maxar 80 lowband? I moving one that is presently at 49.520 MHz, up to 50.065 MHz, but have no idea what the pins are for PTT, etc. There is no microphone or other cables that came with the radio. Thanks for any help. Jeff KP3FT
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
i'm at work right now--I will get that info tomorrow!! Rich K W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: aseyb...@andrewseybold.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 16:38:49 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question What repeater are you running? Is it a GE Mastr II by chance? Andy From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
On 9/8/2010 6:11 PM, RichardK wrote: Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. The Wacom WP-639 is insufficient for 100 solid state watts, unless you run a GE MASTR II PLL exciter and no preamp. You will either need to replace the duplexer with another unit capable of properly isolating 100 solid state watts, add additional filters, change to a less noisy transmitter and amplifier (tubes are better - no I'm not kidding). Kevin Custer - W3KKC
[Repeater-Builder] Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar nodes to thus enable IRLP connections on AllStar system?
Bcc to 2010 VoIP Conference List -Original Message- From: David Cameron (IRLP) [mailto:dcame...@irlp.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 7:56 AM To: Kent Johnson Subject: Re: Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar Kent, the short answer is no. I have had far too many complaints about people being brought into full duplex telephone calls and non-radio endpoints due to Allstar nodes on IRLP. The philosophy of IRLP is to keep radios on all ends of a link. Dave Cameron VE7LTD
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: wb6...@verizon.net Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 06:18 PM 9/8/2010, Richard Kelly wrote: We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. --That is a complete waste of time as that is not the problem. Your duplexer simply cannot provide enough isolation for the power level you're trying to run. More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Rich, Eric speaks the truth. The will HANDLE 200 watts without arcing, etc, but do not provide nearly enough isolation at 600 KHz spacing to handle 100 watts. For a 35 watt transmitter, I run cans that provide around 96 dB of isolation. the 85 dB your cans can provide just ain't gonna cut it. 73, Mike WM4B _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Kelly Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:19 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: wb6...@verizon.net Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
I'm afraid your wasting your time. According to the document for the Wacom 639 duplexer, this is what it says: MIN. FREQ. SPACING: 600 KHz POWER: TO 200 WATTS Notice that it says TO 200 watts. That would be if you were at 2MHz of spacing or more. You are only at 600KHz spacing, so you power level will be much less. I know it's not what you want to hear, but I believe you have the wrong duplexer for a 100 watt solid state repeater. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/8/2010 9:18 PM, Richard Kelly wrote: Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Hello again Ken, Thank you for replying with more info, we appreciate it. My email address if you want to get off this posting is w2...@arrl.net How would we go about providing MORE isolation than what we have done so far? Rich Kelly W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: ah...@ah6le.net Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:24:41 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question At 06:18 PM 9/8/2010, Richard Kelly wrote: We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. --That is a complete waste of time as that is not the problem. Your duplexer simply cannot provide enough isolation for the power level you're trying to run. More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em! Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 9/8/2010 18:24, you wrote: At 06:18 PM 9/8/2010, Richard Kelly wrote: We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. --That is a complete waste of time as that is not the problem. Your duplexer simply cannot provide enough isolation for the power level you're trying to run. More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. Replacing copper-braided coax with RG-214 or hardline is hardly a waste of time. The duplexer isolation may not be quite enough, but that can be easily remedied by adding an extra pass cavity to the TX. Just another 10 to 15 dB of TX noise suppression is likely all you need. RG-8, RG-213 or LMR-400 antenna feed, OTOH, will make any duplexer moot due to all the desense it will generate, sooner or later. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
I got a set of 4 sinclair cans, like a Q202g on a GE mastr II running 100 watts with pll exciter and GE preamp with no desense. Antenna is roughly 300' away fed with LDF7-50A. Is this a miracle or typical? - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 20:10:44 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Rich, The short answer is: You need to find a bigger duplexer. Four 8 cans would work well such as a Wacom WP-641. You could simply call and order one if Wacom was still in business. (RIP) Unfortunately Tx/Rx bought them years ago for the name and to quash competition. They can be found occasionally for around $600 or so on the used market. Other alternatives are as follows: 1) You can use two antennas and split the 639 duplexer so that 2 cans are in series between the TX and the TX antenna, and the other two are in series between the RX and the RX antenna. Terry WX3M a list member is doing this with VERY good results on one of his VHF machines. Of course this involves the expense of additional feedline and a second antenna. I think you said you had this machine on an 80' mast. 50' or so of vertical isolation coupled with the additional isolation of splitting the duplexer *may* be enough isolation to get rid of all the desense. TX goes on bottom, RX on top. 2) Buy additional Band Pass / Band Reject (BPBR) cans. You can add these additional cans between the Tx and/or Rx and the duplexer. These cans will give additional isolation. Even if you can find just Pass or Notch cavities, tune them and put them in the correct place. With both of the above options, you are looking to add to the isolation between your transmitter and receiver. You'll find you'll do best by adding cans to your transmitter that notch side-band noise at your receiver's frequency. In other words, do what you can to insure your receiver is not hearing your own transmitter's sideband noise on it's input. Pass cans tuned to the TX frequency or NOTCH cavities tuned to your *RX* frequency placed in the transmit line are your best hope. Good luck, Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Road Boswell, PA 15531 On 9/8/2010 9:52 PM, Richard Kelly wrote: Hello again Ken, Thank you for replying with more info, we appreciate it. My email address if you want to get off this posting is w2...@arrl.net mailto:w2...@arrl.net How would we go about providing MORE isolation than what we have done so far? Rich Kelly W2RRK
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 08:21 PM 9/8/2010, n...@no6b.com wrote: Replacing copper-braided coax with RG-214 or hardline is hardly a waste of time. --Notice I said: More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. I was assuming he wasn't running something along the lines of RG-8 but I did think to qualify that. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
The PLL exciter is why you're having such good success running a 4-cavity duplexer. If you had a PM exciter, chances are you'd be experiencing desense. The PLL exciter produces about 22 dB less noise at 600 kHz offset, reducing the noise supression requirement of the duplexer by a like amount. See: http://www.repeater-builder.com/pdf/GE_Isolation_Curves.pdf The OP also mentioned he was using a preamp - that's not helping his situation either. Even with a good receiver he's probably on the edge of crunching it with only a 4-pack. Personally, I'd never run a preamp with nothing but a 4-cavity duplexer on 2m, but if it works for you, God bless... A Q202G gives more isolation than a WP639 from what I've seen/measured, in part because the cavities are larger diameter (I think they're 7 versus 5?). --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of NORM KNAPP Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I got a set of 4 sinclair cans, like a Q202g on a GE mastr II running 100 watts with pll exciter and GE preamp with no desense. Antenna is roughly 300' away fed with LDF7-50A. Is this a miracle or typical? - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 20:10:44 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Rich, While there have been a lot of good suggestions thrown at you, you are fighting an uphill battle without knowing the spec's that were obtained when the duplexer was re-tuned the last time or finding someone with a tracking generator or network analyzer to verify the duplexer tuning. Simple method to eliminate coax and/or antenna as possible source of your desense is to tune it up with a good VHF dummy load. I make the repeater work as good as possible running into a dummy load before I connect it to an antenna. If you discover that as others have stated and I also have found out the same results, that your duplexer may not have enough isolation, I recommend adding a 12 pass cavity between the transmitter and the duplexer as the first step. If you are still a little short on isolation, then the addition of another 12 pass cavity between the receiver and the duplexer may be necessary. I always try the cavity on the transmitter side first. For this you need a true pass cavity, one that has two connectors and no notch adjustment. Motorola, GE, and DB-Products for starters have made these 12 pass cavities since the 70's. These pass cavities can often be found used for a reasonable price. 600 KHz split repeaters can be a challenge. I personally like to see a little over 100 db of isolation, especially if you have a decent preamp added to the receiver. Kevin is dead-on about how clean tubes can be compared to solid state PA's. I can run our UHF Micor tube repeaters at 150 watts with a Angle Linear preamp on the receiver, with less isolation required from the duplexer, than the same Micor repeater with a 75 watt solid state PA requires for no desense. For example, I have a Motorola Micor 2 Meter 147.250/147.850 repeater running in my garage on my test duplexer, which is a Sinclair 6 can that has about 94 db of isolation. I have the transmitter set at 60 Watts. With no preamp, I have no desense and some headroom before any desense would occur. With the factory 12 db gain Micor preamp, I have no desense, and a little headroom before desense would occur. With a Angle Linear or ARR preamp with higher gain, I have about 5 db of desense. To eliminate the desense would require another 5 db of isolation from the duplexer, which would put it at just about 100 to 102 db of required isolation from the duplexer. Good luck and let us know how you are progressing. Joe - WA7JAW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, RichardK shutterbug13...@... wrote: Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar nodes to thus enable IRLP connections on AllStar system?
On Wed, 8 Sep 2010, Kent Johnson wrote: Bcc to 2010 VoIP Conference List -Original Message- From: David Cameron (IRLP) [mailto:dcame...@irlp.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 7:56 AM To: Kent Johnson Subject: Re: Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar Kent, the short answer is no. I have had far too many complaints about people being brought into full duplex telephone calls and non-radio endpoints due to Allstar nodes on IRLP. The philosophy of IRLP is to keep radios on all ends of a link. Dave Cameron VE7LTD I call BS. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
[Repeater-Builder] 6 Meter Repeater
I am tossing around the idea of building a 6 meter repeater. This will have to be single site if I do this. What are you guys using for the repeater, duplexer, and antenna? Thanks, Charles KC5DGC
