[Repeater-Builder] Desence on High Power Linear Repeater?
Hello everyone, I have an issue and I thought I would throw it out there! I have a Dstar VHF repeater system. A 4 Can Telewave Duplexer A Chip Angle Band Pass Filter on receive and a Chip Angle 18db pre-amp. Everything works just fine running the repeater barefoot at 20 watts. My problem is when I add the TE Systems amp (Around 100 watts out when hooked up), I lose the sensitivity on the receive. Our portables basically get the bad end of it. How do I go about fixing this issue so I can have the best of both worlds? I good receive and transmit? Aaron KE5KAF
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Desense on High Power Linear Repeater?
Yes, 80 dB on the duplexers, 100 watts in, that's 10 dB and the preamp 18 dB, so I'm losing 8 dB ?? The sensitivity I believe is 0.4 uV Dstar system. I live in Texas where it's flat. I'm adjusting my station to compensate for the height value. More power good receive. There is a 1000 foot commercial tower here which would have been perfect, but they want too much to let me use it. Model Numbers: Angel Linear PreAmp 147GNT Angel Linear Filters 2BP147N TE Systems 1412RAN Linear Amp Superflex Cables 4 Can Telewave Duplxers 600 KHz split (Yes it does 600) I had thought of adding two more cans and purchasing a new phasing harness but, someone told me to stop and just add more filters. So I'm not sure which direction to go. I would like to push more power if possible. Thanks Aaron --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon wb6...@... wrote: Aaron, My CommShop for Windows program suggests that about 88 dB of isolation is needed for a 20 watt repeater, assuming 0.2 uV sensitivity on the receiver- which you didn't specify. Bumping the power to 100 watts will increase that figure to about 95 dB. My gut feeling is that your duplexer is not up to the task. What is the model number of your Telewave duplexer, and of your Angle Linear bandpass filter? Are all of your jumpers double-shielded, with no adapters? Do you have an isolator on the output jack of your TE amplifier? Have you verified with a spectrum analyzer that your PA output is free of spurs? Since increasing the power output of a repeater seldom increases its coverage area, is it really necessary that you run 100 watts? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Desense on High Power Linear Repeater?
Sorry about that, the model number is TPRD-1454 Aaron --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon wb6...@... wrote: Aaron, You left out the crucial information: What model Telewave duplexer? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Desense on High Power Linear Repeater?
Yeah that is a good question. All we do is test from a portable a few miles from the repeater. Low power settings on TX for the portable. Test with the amp inline and the amp out of the equation. I find very quickly there is something wrong. That's all I can do, I can't vary the output power. I can also test by just dropping the 25 watts to 5 watts on the repeater when a user is on the fringe of the system. If he starts to garble with his audio, I can drop the switch to 5 watts and bang, he's made it in the system clear as a bell. If I throw the switch back to 25 watts, he garbles again. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe k1ike_m...@... wrote: This leads me to a question that I have had on my mind. How are people doing desense testing with D-Star systems? (Remember, it's digital.) 73, Joe, K1ike Eric Lemmon wrote: Aaron, My CommShop for Windows program suggests that about 88 dB of isolation is needed for a 20 watt repeater, assuming 0.2 uV sensitivity on the receiver- which you didn't specify.
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Desense on High Power Linear Repeater?
Hey Don, yeah good to hear ya! Well, the system is at my house. If I could find a tower (Trust me I have looked around) then that would make the world of difference. Its up on my tower about 60 feet (Both UHF and VHF). The VHF has pretty good coverage. The UHF not so much, probably half of the VHF side. Using LMR400 for both with a 7 dB vertical for the UHF and a 4.5 dB for the VHF. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, de W5DK w...@... wrote: Aaron, Howdy again neighbor! Don't start spreading rumors that its flat in Texas, it's all downhill to the beach.on second thought it IS flat and the water is bad Are these the cavities I tuned for you last fall? If so guys these are typical specs for 4 cans BPBR. Sorry but I couldn't find screen shots of when I tuned them, they were just under 80DB as I recall, and had been fiddled with before I corrected them. We had a brief discussion that day Aaron, and you are going to hear support of my suggestions. Location Location Location. Whether its Dstar or not, you can only squeeze so much range out of a site. You are adding items on the RX and TX and have exceeded the separation specs of your duplexers. You may be in the same boat many people are, all the equipment and no place to go. You need to acquire a better site. Are you running the UHF package still? And these are at the same site right? Tell us the details of the antenna systems-height, feed line (type and length) and antennas? I'm curious of the range differences between the UHF and VHF after considering the differences in antenna systems. 73 Don Kirchner W5DK
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Desense on High Power Linear Repeater?
I was originally leaning in that direction, purchasing 2 more cans and a new phasing harness. I was told to stop what I was doing and rethink by other hams. I think you are right. I will order the new cans and make another trip to San Antonio to see Don. Don, if your reading.. I'm a headin up there sometime soon! Aaron --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Eric Lemmon wb6...@... wrote: Aaron, I think we've found the cause of your desense: The TPRD-1454 duplexer, which has four 5 cans, is rated at 77 dB isolation, and is marginal with 20 watts TX and RX sensitivity of 0.4 uV- which calls for at least 82 dB isolation. At 100 watts, 95 dB is recommended. While these recommended figures are ballpark estimates, they have been found to be quite realistic. If you were using a tube-type PA, you might get by with your duplexer, but a solid-state PA needs more isolation. At 600 kHz separation, a duplexer with four 8 cans or six 5 cans is the norm, and even more is better. Even when tuned on a network analyzer, a TPRD-1454 duplexer seldom can reach 80 dB- and that is simply not enough. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Desense on High Power Linear Repeater?
I have opened both repeaters. The VHF already had the blue hardline in it, the UHF however I replaced with superflex. I may try something different. Hardline up the tower and for a patch cord (about 10 feet) up the mast I'll use superflex. I'll have to play around and see what I have still. The preamp has made a big impression on the RX without the amp. I have not tried the system without it and the amp at the same time. Might be worth a shot. I don't have any test equipment that would work for the digital dstar so it's more of a trial and error thing. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, wa1nh wa...@... wrote: I am going to ask a question that might sound stupid but, based upon Icom's ignorance, I need to ask. Did you ever open the repeater case on the 2m repeater and replace the rg-58 patch cables that are zip tied to each other to connect the rf modules to the rear of the case before adding your preamp? Our local repeater guys had serious desense and ended up replacing the junk cables with rg393.And you may find that the receiver sensitivity is closer to 0.6 uV. IF you insist on using the preamp, I would suggest using a decade box to attenuate after the preamp.changing the attenuation periodically to get it to a better level. +18dB is a little too much for any receiver. Jason, WA1NH
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Folded Diploles or Vertical antenna?
Yes, I have spent a lot. It's a Dstar repeater. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 50 ft HAAT, which looks as what you have, 10 mi ideal situation coverage (dist=(sq root (2 x 50)). A good DB224 or fiberglass like the RFS 220 or Telewave ANT150F6-2 (I am assuming 2 m) would give good coverage of what you have. Feed line 1/2 heliax a min. At this run going to larger would gain little. I like the fiberglass, but for top mount DB224 would better stand the lightning. However, you seem to have put lots in a PA and little in anything else. The PA except for suppurious emission specs, is the last to worry about. Good antenna and receiver should be what you are talking about. All of what Nate said is good advice. Mainly height and antenna is the name of the game. I hope you did not spend much on this repeater, but guess is a start. 73, ron, n9ee/r Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 4:15 AM, Nate Duehr wrote: atms169 wrote: Hey guys, I'm trying to find radiation patterns or a calculator to see what would be the best possible coverage for our repeater. There's a number of calculators on the web, and some good links in the RB website for Excel spreadsheets where you can see the math if you like. We are in the very flat lands of Texas and our repeater is only up 50 feet (total of 530 above sea level). With 120 watt output. 120 watts after the duplexer loss, or before? What kind of duplexer, feedline, etc. Assuming 50' for the transmitter and 8' (I'm being generous) for a mobile rig, the radio horizon between those two is approximately 14 miles, according to the popular calculators. Anything else isn't line of sight propagation. Which do you think would work better? A dual folded dipole antenna with low angle of radiation or a fiberglass vertical at 6db? Let's assume power doesn't matter for a moment, and just break it down into comparison of the antennas. Remember, altitude trumps all, antenna gain and feedline losses next, and the PA is *last* place you want to make up for a weak antenna system. The antenna is gain both directions, transmit and receive. The PA only helps people hear the repeater... it doesn't help them get into it. So... the important info is missing in your question... What band? Can't answer the antenna question without knowing what band you're looking at to compare different sized antennas. Makes a big difference. I will assume VHF for these answers for the moment. You say 6dB. Is that 6 dBd or 6 dBi? That also makes a big difference, since we're going from your numbers for the one antenna, and don't know which other antenna you're comparing to. What specific antennas are you looking at? Spec sheet on the web somewhere to reference? For both... the dipole array and the stick. Most dual-dipole- array antennas claim about 6 dBd gain when set up in an elliptical pattern. That assumes a 1/2 wave spaced (from the mast) dipole array, like this Sinclair: http://www.sinclair technologies. com/catalog/ product.aspx? id=1680 http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=1680 There are different configurations for 1/4 wave spaced (from the mast) dipole arrays, the lowest gain being the purely omni-directional setup. The offset setup where you pick a direction to push your RF one way more than the others, gives you a little more gain that direction at the expense of the other side. http://www.sinclair technologies. com/catalog/ product.aspx? id=326 http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=326 Generically, there's no free lunch. The same sized antennas exhibit much the same gain, but you can do tricks with the dipoles a stick can't do... like offset the pattern a bit. You could always go for an enormous VHF corner-reflector! (Yep, they make 'em...) http://www.sinclair technologies. com/catalog/ product.aspx? id=1403 http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=1403 It's ONLY 10' wide... hahaha... More info needed... the devil is in the details. Nate WY0X http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=1403
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Folded Diploles or Vertical antenna?
It's the KE5KAF Dstar system in Laredo. 2 Meters 120 watts after duplexers Telawave 4 cans 600 Split Coax LMR-400 80feet Antenna I want to put up is a Commercial Anitron-150 Similar to a DB220 --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: atms169 wrote: Hey guys, I'm trying to find radiation patterns or a calculator to see what would be the best possible coverage for our repeater. There's a number of calculators on the web, and some good links in the RB website for Excel spreadsheets where you can see the math if you like. We are in the very flat lands of Texas and our repeater is only up 50 feet (total of 530 above sea level). With 120 watt output. 120 watts after the duplexer loss, or before? What kind of duplexer, feedline, etc. Assuming 50' for the transmitter and 8' (I'm being generous) for a mobile rig, the radio horizon between those two is approximately 14 miles, according to the popular calculators. Anything else isn't line of sight propagation. Which do you think would work better? A dual folded dipole antenna with low angle of radiation or a fiberglass vertical at 6db? Let's assume power doesn't matter for a moment, and just break it down into comparison of the antennas. Remember, altitude trumps all, antenna gain and feedline losses next, and the PA is *last* place you want to make up for a weak antenna system. The antenna is gain both directions, transmit and receive. The PA only helps people hear the repeater... it doesn't help them get into it. So... the important info is missing in your question... What band? Can't answer the antenna question without knowing what band you're looking at to compare different sized antennas. Makes a big difference. I will assume VHF for these answers for the moment. You say 6dB. Is that 6 dBd or 6 dBi? That also makes a big difference, since we're going from your numbers for the one antenna, and don't know which other antenna you're comparing to. What specific antennas are you looking at? Spec sheet on the web somewhere to reference? For both... the dipole array and the stick. Most dual-dipole-array antennas claim about 6 dBd gain when set up in an elliptical pattern. That assumes a 1/2 wave spaced (from the mast) dipole array, like this Sinclair: http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=1680 There are different configurations for 1/4 wave spaced (from the mast) dipole arrays, the lowest gain being the purely omni-directional setup. The offset setup where you pick a direction to push your RF one way more than the others, gives you a little more gain that direction at the expense of the other side. http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=326 Generically, there's no free lunch. The same sized antennas exhibit much the same gain, but you can do tricks with the dipoles a stick can't do... like offset the pattern a bit. You could always go for an enormous VHF corner-reflector! (Yep, they make 'em...) http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=1403 It's ONLY 10' wide... hahaha... More info needed... the devil is in the details. Nate WY0X
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Folded Diploles or Vertical antenna?
Well as you know, one is never satisfied with their own repeater. Always wanting to have better! Yes, the Dstar system is great. I am changing the fiberglass vertical to the Anitron-150 which is a set of folded dipoles. I'm running a TE Systems PA and a Chip Angle preamp. Yes, 50 feet sucks but, it's the law here in Laredo. Nothing over 50' I have not purchased Heliax in years and was a little afraid to even ask due to the copper costs have risen over the last few years. Hope to hear you on Dstar? --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ron Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Shame you can only get up to 50 ft. D-Star is exciting mode and the telewave 4 can duplexer is good. I would consider something other than the LMR400 for with their dis-similar double shields it can cause noise. I would seriously consider 1/2 heliax and 80 ft will not be big investment. I am not familar with the Anitron-150, but since similar to the 220 it will play well. One problem with fiberglass antennas is that they are made of coaxial lines that are often soldered together. Lightning tends to melt the solder when hit and being top mounted can be a concern. I think all ICOM D-Star gear is lower power than the 120+ Watts. Wonder what PA you are using. As so many Ham repeaters start they begin at a low site. Then they get going and others find them and someone comes up with a better site often a broadcast engineer with an inside tie or commercial guy that has access to a higher site. You just need to be ready to jump on it when it comes, and if you hang in there it will come...not a question of if, but just when. Good luck with your system. You've gone this far so might seriously consider replacing the feedline. I am sure there are others that agree. 73, ron, n9ee/r Ron Wright, N9EE 727-376-6575 MICRO COMPUTER CONCEPTS Owner 146.64 repeater Tampa Bay, FL No tone, all are welcome. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 6:49 PM, atms169 wrote: It's the KE5KAF Dstar system in Laredo. 2 Meters 120 watts after duplexers Telawave 4 cans 600 Split Coax LMR-400 80feet Antenna I want to put up is a Commercial Anitron-150 Similar to a DB220 --- In Repeater-Builder@ yahoogroups. com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com , Nate Duehr nate@ wrote: atms169 wrote: Hey guys, I'm trying to find radiation patterns or a calculator to see what would be the best possible coverage for our repeater. There's a number of calculators on the web, and some good links in the RB website for Excel spreadsheets where you can see the math if you like. We are in the very flat lands of Texas and our repeater is only up 50 feet (total of 530 above sea level). With 120 watt output. 120 watts after the duplexer loss, or before? What kind of duplexer, feedline, etc. Assuming 50' for the transmitter and 8' (I'm being generous) for a mobile rig, the radio horizon between those two is approximately 14 miles, according to the popular calculators. Anything else isn't line of sight propagation. Which do you think would work better? A dual folded dipole antenna with low angle of radiation or a fiberglass vertical at 6db? Let's assume power doesn't matter for a moment, and just break it down into comparison of the antennas. Remember, altitude trumps all, antenna gain and feedline losses next, and the PA is *last* place you want to make up for a weak antenna system. The antenna is gain both directions, transmit and receive. The PA only helps people hear the repeater... it doesn't help them get into it. So... the important info is missing in your question... What band? Can't answer the antenna question without knowing what band you're looking at to compare different sized antennas. Makes a big difference. I will assume VHF for these answers for the moment. You say 6dB. Is that 6 dBd or 6 dBi? That also makes a big difference, since we're going from your numbers for the one antenna, and don't know which other antenna you're comparing to. What specific antennas are you looking at? Spec sheet on the web somewhere to reference? For both... the dipole array and the stick. Most dual-dipole- array antennas claim about 6 dBd gain when set up in an elliptical pattern. That assumes a 1/2 wave spaced (from the mast) dipole array, like this Sinclair: http://www.sinclair technologies. com/catalog/ product.aspx? id=1680 http://www.sinclairtechnologies.com/catalog/product.aspx?id=1680 There are different configurations for 1/4 wave spaced (from the mast) dipole arrays, the lowest gain being the purely omni-directional setup. The offset setup where you pick a direction to push your RF one way more than the others, gives you a little more gain that direction at the expense of the other side. http://www.sinclair technologies. com/catalog/ product.aspx? id=326 http
[Repeater-Builder] Folded Diploles or Vertical antenna?
Hey guys, I'm trying to find radiation patterns or a calculator to see what would be the best possible coverage for our repeater. We are in the very flat lands of Texas and our repeater is only up 50 feet (total of 530 above sea level). With 120 watt output. Which do you think would work better? A dual folded dipole antenna with low angle of radiation or a fiberglass vertical at 6db?
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Everest Ham Frequencies
Funny you mentioned this. I watched and paused several times on the same thing. I even went in to the database's to see if anyone was a ham or not. I could not find anything. Thought maybe Bear was a ham? It would have been nice to hear the odd call sign. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just got a kick out of watching the Discovery Channel Everest 2 show tonight. First spotted frequency was a Kenwood rig, 145.25 simplex. Also watched the Japanese team keying up a Yaesu with that #@(*@#% WIRES button activated, and a DTMF tone going out on the beginning of every transmission... on simplex. They were utterly clueless that they had it activated (just like repeater users around here!) and that it was cutting off the beginning of their transmissions. No callsigns heard, ever... of course. Good thing there's no CATV systems anywhere near Everest, eh? ;-) Nate WY0X
[Repeater-Builder] MSR2000 + Controller Mushy Audio
Hey guys, thanks for all the tips on the MSR2000 conversion. I now have a running MSR2000 and NHRC-5 controller. I have one problem.. the audio sounds mushy, almost emphasized. I tapped in to pin 17 from the Squelch Card but, I think I'm not getting a clean signal. Is there a better spot to tap in to? I read somewhere I might need to remove a resistor off the Squelch Card but, I have no manuals for this. Any help appreciated thanks!
[Repeater-Builder] Motorla MSR-2000 Jumpers?
I'm adding a controller to my Squelch Gate for my MSR-2000 repeater. I am almost there but, I can not find where these Jumpers are that need to be adjusted so my controller will work. Does anyone know where I can find them? Are they the jumpers on the Squelch Gate that need to be soldered? I'm a little confused. Thanks
[Repeater-Builder] Motorola MSR2000 + NHRC-5
Hey guys. I have a question on schematics or a wiring diagram. I need to wire up an NHRC-5 Controller to an old RCMP VHF Motorola MSR-2000 (40 Watt version). I was going to wing it, thinking I could go through the squelch gate but, I would rather look for some information. Has anyone done this with this particular repeater? Any help appreciated.
[Repeater-Builder] Double the gain or double the power?
Easy question for all other repeater owners. What should I do? I have a pair of folded looped-dipole antenna's for my repeater which pushes 42 Watts. Once I add the antenna and duplexers I get 25 Watts output. The antenna has 4 looped-dipole antenna's with phasing harness but I only use one set. So what should I do, should I continue using the 1 set of looped-dipole antenna's at 25 Watts or do I add the second pair of looped-dipole antenna's and push only 10 Watts out on the repeater (As there will be a loss). Which would be better? I am sure I am doubling the gain for PEP. Would I have a better receive on the antenna as well? Would it really make it stronger? Aaron VA6AE Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Double the gain or double the power?
Yes, I was using the Top Half of a 4-element antenna. I have now added the 3-Way connector and now have the entire antenna connected. I have noticed it has cleaned up the receive on week stations but, it seems to have dropped a little in the signal. System was just re-tuned, duplexers and radios. It's a Motorola MSR-2000 Canadian 40 Watt version. When I add the duplexers and the top half of the antenna I get 25 Watts out. When I add the second half I get 10 Watts out. Measuring the wattage just after the duplexers. I guess we will see how well it works? The antenna is somewhat at a good height. It's on a 55' tower on a hill overlooking the City. I wish it was a little higher however, that is not possible at this time. Thanks Aaron VA6AE --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Steve Bosshard (NU5D) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Depending on the degree of coupling, at VHF, the loss in 2, 8 cavities will be around 1.5 dB., send or receive. 10 LOG 25/42 comes to around 2.25 dB. A little on the high side. I don't understand where adding the remaining 2 elements to a 4 element antenna will change the loss. Seems the repeater delivers 42 Watts. The Duplexer adds 2.25 db of loss. A 2 loop antenna will have around 3 dB of gain, and a 4 loop antenna should have around 6 dB. of gain. Adding the second 2 loops should help the send and receive by around 3 dB. I am making the assumption that you are now using the top half of a 4 element antenna, and you plan to re-connect the bottom half? Steve NU5D On 5/30/06, KB6ZOP [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That seems like a LOT of loss... Have you had the cans and antenna(s) tuned? -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of atms169 Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:46 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Double the gain or double the power? Easy question for all other repeater owners. What should I do? I have a pair of folded looped-dipole antenna's for my repeater which pushes 42 Watts. Once I add the antenna and duplexers I get 25 Watts output. The antenna has 4 looped-dipole antenna's with phasing harness but I only use one set. So what should I do, should I continue using the 1 set of looped-dipole antenna's at 25 Watts or do I add the second pair of looped-dipole antenna's and push only 10 Watts out on the repeater (As there will be a loss). Which would be better? I am sure I am doubling the gain for PEP. Would I have a better receive on the antenna as well? Would it really make it stronger? Aaron VA6AE Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links -- Ham Radio Spoken Here.NU5D Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Double the gain or double the power?
Yes I have to add a tee for the bottom half. The entire antenna is one complete unit 4-folded dipoles. Maybe I assumed and thought all the phasing harness's were already there as I can see where the splits are on the coax. It is a VHF system. I am measuring from out of the duplexers up the LMR-400 cable and not at the top. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, 'Jeff DePolo' [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I was using the Top Half of a 4-element antenna. I have now added the 3-Way connector and now have the entire antenna connected. I have noticed it has cleaned up the receive on week stations but, it seems to have dropped a little in the signal. System was just re-tuned, duplexers and radios. It's a Motorola MSR-2000 Canadian 40 Watt version. When I add the duplexers and the top half of the antenna I get 25 Watts out. When I add the second half I get 10 Watts out. Measuring the wattage just after the duplexers. This doesn't make sense. The transmitter output shouldn't be changing. It sounds to me like when the second set of bays was connected it wasn't done with a proper matching/phasing harness, but rather just by teeing the two halfs together. This would throw the match off (a 2:1 VSWR mismatch best-case), which results in a detuning effect at the duplexer which makes its insertion loss go up, which is why you're seeing less TPO. Have you measured the reflected power at the antenna both before and after adding the second set of bays (or if you can't measure at the antenna, measure at the output of the duplexer and tell us what kind/how long your feedline is and we can back-calculate from that). Also, what band is this repeater on? --- Jeff -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Double the gain or double the power?
Commercial antenna *unknown, with 80' LMR-400 I have another set of antenna's (Just 2 folded dipoles) and I can change it out to see if that makes a difference. Strange, I did try it with a full wave ringo-ranger and I still lose about 20 watts through the duplexers. Aaron --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, 'Jeff DePolo' [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes I have to add a tee for the bottom half. The entire antenna is one complete unit 4-folded dipoles. Maybe I assumed and thought all the phasing harness's were already there as I can see where the splits are on the coax. What kind of antenna is it? I am measuring from out of the duplexers up the LMR-400 cable and not at the top. How long is the run of LMR400? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Double the gain or double the power?
I can't measure the reflected power. I can measure SWR and that is flat. I am going to change it to another pair of folded dipoles and see if it changes anything. Aaron --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Steve Bosshard (NU5D) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The power should not have changed.I suspect you incur an antenna problem when u add the second half, causing some reflected power causing the repeater to start shutting back. Wonder what the forward and reflected power are, before and after? I am not sure about a 3 way connectorA DB Products Model 224 has a splice in the middle, and feed point at the bottom. Might be worth while the double check the antenna and be sure the harness hasn't been tinkered with... Steve NU5D On 5/30/06, atms169 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I was using the Top Half of a 4-element antenna. I have now added the 3-Way connector and now have the entire antenna connected. I have noticed it has cleaned up the receive on week stations but, it seems to have dropped a little in the signal. System was just re-tuned, duplexers and radios. It's a Motorola MSR-2000 Canadian 40 Watt version. When I add the duplexers and the top half of the antenna I get 25 Watts out. When I add the second half I get 10 Watts out. Measuring the wattage just after the duplexers. I guess we will see how well it works? The antenna is somewhat at a good height. It's on a 55' tower on a hill overlooking the City. I wish it was a little higher however, that is not possible at this time. Thanks Aaron VA6AE --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Steve Bosshard (NU5D) bosshard@ wrote: Depending on the degree of coupling, at VHF, the loss in 2, 8 cavities will be around 1.5 dB., send or receive. 10 LOG 25/42 comes to around 2.25 dB. A little on the high side. I don't understand where adding the remaining 2 elements to a 4 element antenna will change the loss. Seems the repeater delivers 42 Watts. The Duplexer adds 2.25 db of loss. A 2 loop antenna will have around 3 dB of gain, and a 4 loop antenna should have around 6 dB. of gain. Adding the second 2 loops should help the send and receive by around 3 dB. I am making the assumption that you are now using the top half of a 4 element antenna, and you plan to re-connect the bottom half? Steve NU5D On 5/30/06, KB6ZOP kb6zop@ wrote: That seems like a LOT of loss... Have you had the cans and antenna(s) tuned? -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of atms169 Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 9:46 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Double the gain or double the power? Easy question for all other repeater owners. What should I do? I have a pair of folded looped-dipole antenna's for my repeater which pushes 42 Watts. Once I add the antenna and duplexers I get 25 Watts output. The antenna has 4 looped-dipole antenna's with phasing harness but I only use one set. So what should I do, should I continue using the 1 set of looped-dipole antenna's at 25 Watts or do I add the second pair of looped-dipole antenna's and push only 10 Watts out on the repeater (As there will be a loss). Which would be better? I am sure I am doubling the gain for PEP. Would I have a better receive on the antenna as well? Would it really make it stronger? Aaron VA6AE Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links -- Ham Radio Spoken Here.NU5D Yahoo! Groups Links -- Ham Radio Spoken Here.NU5D Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Double the gain or double the power?
Alright for all those that think I'm an idiot, it's true I am! I went back up to the repeater site and did some testing. I did find that there was some water in the coax. I blew it out and re-sealed the connectors. Now I am back up to 22-25 watts with a 1.1 match on the 4 antenna's. So I am still losing 20 watts somewhere??? I tried the vertical full wave antenna I had laying at the site and it also gives me 25 watts out. So I am losing almost half through the duplexers. This is strange to me, mind you I am losing about 3db in the duplexers so that is half. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Jim B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes I have to add a tee for the bottom half. That's your problem. You need the specific harness for a 4-bay antenna. It will have the connector you connect to, which will split into two paths, then further down each one will split again. Tee connectors will cut the impedance in half. If you have to add one, you are using the wrong harness. -- Jim Barbour WD8CHL Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] IC-2200H Digtal Repeater?
I want to attempt to setup a Digital Repeater on VHF using the Icom IC-2200H with optional board. I would like the D-Star system but, Hams here seem to avoid paying for that kind of money. So I would like to compensate and try something different. Has anyone ever attempted this? Did it work or has it worked well for you? Any information would be helpful. Aaron VA6AE Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] MSR-2000 RX Problem
Well my Motorola Mitrek radio's PA finally went. So I invested a heafty penny in the MSR-2000 VHF system. A couple of things I am having problems with, number one is I can only get a max of 20 Watts out. I have played with the PA and Exciter and can't get anymore than that. My second issue is with my older radio I was always having an RX problem. If it was a weak station it would sound like static or a lose ground on the antenna. Now that I have the same crystals (Elements) in the MSR-2000 I still have that same RX problem. Could there be something wrong with the RX Element? If so, is there a way to fix it or should I just order some new ones? So if anyone knows how to get a little more power out on my repeater and or fix the RX problem that would be most helpful. Thanks VA6AE Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] MSR-2000 How to I up the RF Power?
I have already increased the power on the exciter and PA, is there somewhere else that I can adjust? My max power so far is only 20 Watts. Aaron VA6AE Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Strange Repeater Problem
--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Bob Dengler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 5/4/2006 08:38 AM, you wrote: I hope someone can shed some light on this? If I have my repeater at home it works with 30 Watts out now problem. When I bring it back to the repeater site I have to lower it to 5-10 Watts because I get RF feedback to the radio. It just sounds like the squelch is always open. Motorola Mitrek modified for duplex Coax is the same at both locations, LMR400 Antenna is the only thing that is different, using a fiberglass Alpha If the repeater site is shared, there's lots of other equipment/antennas up there as well. Any switching power supplies, video cameras or TV transmitters at the site? Bob NO6B The repeater site is not shared. I have now tried everything I possibly could think of. I replaced the coax from the duplexer to the radio, encased the radio in a thick metal box, replaced coax, replaced antenna. Still the same thing. So I am led to believe that the repeater site itself is receiving some sort of interferance? Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] Good Radio's for Repeater?
Well my Motorola Mitrek radio has finally packed it in. Now I need to buy two 2 Meter radio's to work with my NHRC-5 Controller. Does anyone have any sugestions? Icom, Yaesu or Alinco? Would appreciate it... thanks Aaron VA6AE Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
