[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Kind of a delayed reply here, but relevent. I bought my RC210 and TKR-750 from Ken and have run the low usage TKR at 50 watts with no ill effects. Even with moderate key downs it just doesn't get hot. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah...@... wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug)
In the TKR750 service manual under specs it use to state for continous duty turn down to 15 W. Have to look hard for this spec. The PA was, not sure if still is, a one transistor PA and have seen the PA PCB chard around the transistor. This was a Ham repeater. Most commerical applications require low duty cycle...users talk for 30 sec at a time. In Ham we tend to talk for hours at a time. Having a repeater in service 24/7 is far different than having it transmitting 24/7 or even for 6 hours continous/day at a time like on one of my 2m MSR2000s. 73, ron, n9ee/r 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, skipp025 skipp...@... wrote: Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) My turn, As an Authorized Kenwood Sales and Full Service Dealer with easily more than 50 Kenwood Version 2 TKR-750 TKR-850 Repeaters going full tilt (full rated output power) 24/7 ... I've never ever had to repair one. In fact, the only Kenwood TKR-850 Repeater we've ever had to really fix was sent in from out of state, struck by lightning... and that fix was relatively easy (all things considered). We do carefully pop the access cover off to properly set-up the Receiver Pre-Selector up using a very specialized RF Cable few other Dealers have/use (yeah, we sell them). But after a proper Dealer Setup, they live quite happily at their max rated power even if not rated on paper as such. And of course we also throw out the same we can't officially recommend it disclaimer. And... We still service the older TKR-720 and TKR-820 Repeaters. I doubt most people would be able over-heat and kill the PA in a New Kenwood TKR-750 or TKR-850 repeater (with free air movement around the exhaust fan opening)... even if they tried (and I've seen a few examples where people seem to have with out luck, tried to kill a repeater). cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com Authorized Kenwood Pyramid Sales and Service (Dealer) (707) 678-4187 (707) 446-3419 cell k7pfj@ wrote: Hi Ken and Norm, On my UHF LTR system I have several home channels in the 5 ch system that are almost continuous transmit during the date time. I have the TKR850's running at 35wt and they have survived for two years so far with no ill affects. At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug)
we have had good luck with them on 6.25 digital and you? - Original Message - From: skipp025 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:42 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) OK let me give you another dealer input Yes we are a Kenwood and also an Icom dealer. From our own use we for our in house systems use both brands of repeaters. If I was going to do a 2 meter today I would use the ICOM FR-5000 the new 50 watt unit. A Government Customer bought some of the newer generation Icom Repeaters from another dealer for a pretty good size LTR Trunking System. I was asked by the Trunking Controller Mfgr (CSI) to help trouble-shoot an on-going drop out problem, which was traced back to the discriminator output of the Icom Receiver. The receiver would chop/slice sections of the recovered discriminator signal well within the normal expected bandwidth. The customer ended up replacing those receiver models with different equipment. And they/we found the problem with more than one Icom Repeater Receiver Model. I would suggest new buyers of what I call the newer low tier/cost Icom Repeaters have a look at the receiver discriminator output with a service monitor (scope) so you aren't fighting a non uniform discriminator output problem... not so easily fixed. Icom like all the others makes some pretty decent gear... but some of the newer lower tier repeaters have that known issue, which I feel is pretty darn important to know about when starting out. cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
You missed: Install an S-Com 7330 (including finding the right injection point in the Kenwood... knowing nothing about them, I don't know if that's easy or hard, but I can't imagine it's impossible) to allow the controller itself to do your CTCSS TX from the repeater, so you have nice control of it. It'll do either type of phase-shift, so you can switch it to your 180 degree mode, if that's what you like on your rig. (Your'e the repeater dude after all...) Then also use audio delay in the controller too, to get rid of the crashes. Can also program the so-called chicken burst into the controller after that, if you like for a suspenders and belt type of setup. And foh-get-about-it. :-) At least I think that could be made to work properly with current firmware. I'd have to think about it sometime before 1AM seriously to make sure. LOL! Leave the detection on received CTCSS up to the Kenwood, or use a discriminator tap and the detector of your choice, as mentioned below. Puttin' all that stuff in the controller (I wish it had detection, but I understand why it doesn't) is nice because then you can program macros of various events around it all to do even more... Nate WY0X On Dec 11, 2009, at 11:59 PM, Thomas Oliver wrote: Either way you are going to hear a squelch crash. If you turn reverse burst on, your transmitter will stay keyed slightly longer while it is transmitting the out of phase pl signal that makes a compatible receiver instantly mute. The Kenwood repeater receiver is not compatible (so it seems). There is about three possibilities I can think of to rid your system of squelch crash. None of witch are real easy to accomplish. Easiest of all would be to make the users pl pass through the repeater. Would still hear squelch crashes if your mobile radios mic was off hook or your portables were not set to decode pl. 1) install an audio delay board between the controller and receiver audio input. But that would only eliminate the squelch tail while users were talking (as long as the repeater transmitter remains keyed) You are always going to hear a squelch crash when the repeater transmitter unkeys unless you can figure a way to transmit pl tone only when there is cos and make the hang time slightly longer than the time it takes your Motorola receivers to mute. 2) Install a community repeater tone panel (repeater controller) capable compatible with Motorola reverse burst on both transmit and receive. Would require disabling the repeaters internal controller. Probably the best way. 3) install a pl decoder (like a TS-64 from Comm Spec) on the repeater receiver and transmitter each compatible with Motorola reverse burst. I do not know for sure if the TS-64 is motorola compatible. Would require bypass of the repeaters internal decoder and interfacing the encoder and decoder to the proper place in the transmitter and controller. There may be other ways that I have not thought of, anyone else? tom Peter Dakota Summerhawk wrote: Eric, So what settings should you have for the Motorola radios to avoid the squelch tail in the system? Reverse burst turned on or off? Thanks Peter Summerhawk *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Lemmon *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2009 10:22 PM *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Paul, You have put your finger on the major difference between modern Motorola and Kenwood radios. Kenwood chose to equip their products to process only the 180-degree phase shift reverse-burst squelch tail elimination scheme, while Motorola Professional Series radios can be programmed for either 180-degree or 120-degree phase shift. TIA-603-C, the international standard for land-mobile radio performance, recognizes both reverse schemes as equally viable. Kenwood may recapture some market share, once their radios are equipped to encode and decode reverse burst in either scheme. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Dumdie Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:12 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T
Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Paul, It depends on what portables you are using with the Kenwood repeater. Some, but not all of the newer CPS programmed equipment have a setting checkbox marked something like Use non-standard PL decode which can be set on a per channel basis. With this feature enabled the squelch crash issue goes away. I have seen this on the HT750/1250/1550 and CDM products. If the portables are older then you either have to live with the crash or you can have a dealer contact Kenwood about changing the timing in firmware (not a cheap option). Milt N3LTQ Quoting Paul Dumdie w9...@sbcglobal.net: I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Paul Dumdie w9...@... wrote: I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Hi Paul, I've found the crash noise varies with the radio and obviously there are a gazillion radios being used... (maybe slightly less...) Someone might mention there is a Kenwood Firmware mod/update for the TKR-750/850 Version 2 repeaters. While not 100% in step with the Motorola Reverse Burst function it might help in your situation if you have the earlier firmware. Regarding an internal repeater receiver squelch crash... The more practical fix for owners with attached external repeater controllers would be to insert/use a well adjusted audio delay line. Use of an audio delay line will also address a few other sidebar audio noises you might not want going out on the air. The question is... are you hearing the crash from/through the repeater audio or from your portable squelch as your repeater tx goes off the air? s.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug)
OK let me give you another dealer input Yes we are a Kenwood and also an Icom dealer. From our own use we for our in house systems use both brands of repeaters. GMRS Kenwood TKR-850 2 meter Kenwood TKR-751 control 210 and TPL amp 3 ICOM FR-6000 repeater happy with all and also have a FR-4000 for sale that was used in house to ID on a tower at low power only So what would I buy got all 3 and very happy with them. If I was going to do a 2 meter today I would use the ICOM FR-5000 the new 50 watt unit. check it out. John - Original Message - From: skipp025 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:42 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) My turn, As an Authorized Kenwood Sales and Full Service Dealer with easily more than 50 Kenwood Version 2 TKR-750 TKR-850 Repeaters going full tilt (full rated output power) 24/7 ... I've never ever had to repair one. In fact, the only Kenwood TKR-850 Repeater we've ever had to really fix was sent in from out of state, struck by lightning... and that fix was relatively easy (all things considered). We do carefully pop the access cover off to properly set-up the Receiver Pre-Selector up using a very specialized RF Cable few other Dealers have/use (yeah, we sell them). But after a proper Dealer Setup, they live quite happily at their max rated power even if not rated on paper as such. And of course we also throw out the same we can't officially recommend it disclaimer. And... We still service the older TKR-720 and TKR-820 Repeaters. I doubt most people would be able over-heat and kill the PA in a New Kenwood TKR-750 or TKR-850 repeater (with free air movement around the exhaust fan opening)... even if they tried (and I've seen a few examples where people seem to have with out luck, tried to kill a repeater). cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com Authorized Kenwood Pyramid Sales and Service (Dealer) (707) 678-4187 (707) 446-3419 cell k7...@... wrote: Hi Ken and Norm, On my UHF LTR system I have several home channels in the 5 ch system that are almost continuous transmit during the date time. I have the TKR850's running at 35wt and they have survived for two years so far with no ill affects. At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood DealerPlug)
For the Kenwood also look at the TKR 740 and TKR 840 units the receive is very good. John - Original Message - From: Tim Herron To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood DealerPlug) So for all of you super experienced repeater builders out there, this is probably sound elementry. I am very new to repeater building. I have been working with Moto gear almost exclusively. But after viewing the interior components and the programming of the new Kenwood TKR- repeaters, I would say that they are the way to go.. They are easier to work on than the Moto stuff, and the recievers are much more sensative than the Moto stuff that I have been using... Skipp, not a Shameless Plug, you speak the truth! Excellent gear. Tim On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:42 PM, skipp025 skipp...@yahoo.com wrote: Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) My turn, As an Authorized Kenwood Sales and Full Service Dealer with easily more than 50 Kenwood Version 2 TKR-750 TKR-850 Repeaters going full tilt (full rated output power) 24/7 ... I've never ever had to repair one. In fact, the only Kenwood TKR-850 Repeater we've ever had to really fix was sent in from out of state, struck by lightning... and that fix was relatively easy (all things considered). We do carefully pop the access cover off to properly set-up the Receiver Pre-Selector up using a very specialized RF Cable few other Dealers have/use (yeah, we sell them). But after a proper Dealer Setup, they live quite happily at their max rated power even if not rated on paper as such. And of course we also throw out the same we can't officially recommend it disclaimer. And... We still service the older TKR-720 and TKR-820 Repeaters. I doubt most people would be able over-heat and kill the PA in a New Kenwood TKR-750 or TKR-850 repeater (with free air movement around the exhaust fan opening)... even if they tried (and I've seen a few examples where people seem to have with out luck, tried to kill a repeater). cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com Authorized Kenwood Pyramid Sales and Service (Dealer) (707) 678-4187 (707) 446-3419 cell k7...@... wrote: Hi Ken and Norm, On my UHF LTR system I have several home channels in the 5 ch system that are almost continuous transmit during the date time. I have the TKR850's running at 35wt and they have survived for two years so far with no ill affects. At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken
RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Peter, In the Advanced tab of the Motorola CPS, there is a check box labeled, Non-Standard Reverse Burst. When checked, the radio is programmed to encode and decode CTCSS reverse burst in the 180-degree format used by Kenwood and many other manufacturers. When unchecked- its default condition- the reverse burst is processed in 120-degree format, which is the Motorola standard. This must be properly programmed for each personality, since it operates on a per-channel basis. I use my HT1250 on a mixture of Motorola and Kenwood repeaters, and it is really nice for it to mute silently- both on my end and the repeater end- on all repeaters. All radios in the system must have reverse burst operative in both encode and decode mode for this feature to work properly. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Dakota Summerhawk Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 9:54 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Eric, So what settings should you have for the Motorola radios to avoid the squelch tail in the system? Reverse burst turned on or off? Thanks Peter Summerhawk From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:22 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Paul, You have put your finger on the major difference between modern Motorola and Kenwood radios. Kenwood chose to equip their products to process only the 180-degree phase shift reverse-burst squelch tail elimination scheme, while Motorola Professional Series radios can be programmed for either 180-degree or 120-degree phase shift. TIA-603-C, the international standard for land-mobile radio performance, recognizes both reverse schemes as equally viable. Kenwood may recapture some market share, once their radios are equipped to encode and decode reverse burst in either scheme. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Dumdie Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:12 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
You have to keep in mind that they chose 120 degree shift because they had problems with 180 degree shift breaking reeds. 120 degree shift stops them at a softer rate and increases longevity. The other manufacturers didn't care because they weren't around pre-microprocessor based decoding (they didn't have reed-based decoders), and probably rather liked the idea of making Motorola look bad by breaking reeds in Motorola equipment. Joe M. wd8chl wrote: Paul Dumdie wrote: I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Assuming you mean you have Motorolas that have the switch in software, Kenwood and virtually everyone else in the world uses 180-degree shift for rev burst, so whatever that setting is. Moto uses 120-degree shift, and nearly no one else does. Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 05:06:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Actually, there's more energy available in a 120-degree shift to halt the mechanical reed, than there is in a 180-degree shift. This can be proven mathematically. According to a Motorola treatise published decades ago (I'll post it once I find a copy), Motorola chose the 120-degree shift simply because it was more effective at stopping the reed. Remember, Motorola pioneered the concept of CTCSS. Other manufacturers settled on a 180-degree shift because it was easy, and they needed to rush a competing system to market. No mention was made of reed breakage in these papers. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 9:02 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater You have to keep in mind that they chose 120 degree shift because they had problems with 180 degree shift breaking reeds. 120 degree shift stops them at a softer rate and increases longevity. The other manufacturers didn't care because they weren't around pre-microprocessor based decoding (they didn't have reed-based decoders), and probably rather liked the idea of making Motorola look bad by breaking reeds in Motorola equipment. Joe M. wd8chl wrote: Paul Dumdie wrote: I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Assuming you mean you have Motorolas that have the switch in software, Kenwood and virtually everyone else in the world uses 180-degree shift for rev burst, so whatever that setting is. Moto uses 120-degree shift, and nearly no one else does. Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 05:06:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Eric, Thanks for that I will have to check my CPS as we run XTS2500's and on some channels the squelch tail is almost deafening when the repeater drops. I will have to take a look and see what our settings are and get them adjusted. Thanks for the information and reply. Peter Summerhawk From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 9:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Peter, In the Advanced tab of the Motorola CPS, there is a check box labeled, Non-Standard Reverse Burst. When checked, the radio is programmed to encode and decode CTCSS reverse burst in the 180-degree format used by Kenwood and many other manufacturers. When unchecked- its default condition- the reverse burst is processed in 120-degree format, which is the Motorola standard. This must be properly programmed for each personality, since it operates on a per-channel basis. I use my HT1250 on a mixture of Motorola and Kenwood repeaters, and it is really nice for it to mute silently- both on my end and the repeater end- on all repeaters. All radios in the system must have reverse burst operative in both encode and decode mode for this feature to work properly. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Peter Dakota Summerhawk Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 9:54 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Eric, So what settings should you have for the Motorola radios to avoid the squelch tail in the system? Reverse burst turned on or off? Thanks Peter Summerhawk From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:22 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Paul, You have put your finger on the major difference between modern Motorola and Kenwood radios. Kenwood chose to equip their products to process only the 180-degree phase shift reverse-burst squelch tail elimination scheme, while Motorola Professional Series radios can be programmed for either 180-degree or 120-degree phase shift. TIA-603-C, the international standard for land-mobile radio performance, recognizes both reverse schemes as equally viable. Kenwood may recapture some market share, once their radios are equipped to encode and decode reverse burst in either scheme. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Dumdie Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:12 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
I am pretty sure there is already a firmware fix for this in dealer tools. We had a customer buy 3 new tkr-850's. He otherwise had mostly moto portables. When he heard the sql crash, he wanted it either fixed or his old repeaters back (2 unidens and a standard). We got on the phone with tech support and had firmware in moments... - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat Dec 12 08:01:20 2009 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Paul, It depends on what portables you are using with the Kenwood repeater. Some, but not all of the newer CPS programmed equipment have a setting checkbox marked something like Use non-standard PL decode which can be set on a per channel basis. With this feature enabled the squelch crash issue goes away. I have seen this on the HT750/1250/1550 and CDM products. If the portables are older then you either have to live with the crash or you can have a dealer contact Kenwood about changing the timing in firmware (not a cheap option). Milt N3LTQ Quoting Paul Dumdie w9...@sbcglobal.net mailto:w9dwp%40sbcglobal.net : I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [possible spam] Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood DealerPlug)
And don't forget the TKR-730/830 if you can find them. 5 watts max and they will need an external controller. The RX is awesome. - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat Dec 12 09:37:14 2009 Subject: [possible spam] Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood DealerPlug) For the Kenwood also look at the TKR 740 and TKR 840 units the receive is very good. John - Original Message - From: Tim Herron mailto:ki6...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood DealerPlug) So for all of you super experienced repeater builders out there, this is probably sound elementry. I am very new to repeater building. I have been working with Moto gear almost exclusively. But after viewing the interior components and the programming of the new Kenwood TKR- repeaters, I would say that they are the way to go.. They are easier to work on than the Moto stuff, and the recievers are much more sensative than the Moto stuff that I have been using... Skipp, not a Shameless Plug, you speak the truth! Excellent gear. Tim On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:42 PM, skipp025 skipp...@yahoo.com mailto:skipp...@yahoo.com wrote: Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) My turn, As an Authorized Kenwood Sales and Full Service Dealer with easily more than 50 Kenwood Version 2 TKR-750 TKR-850 Repeaters going full tilt (full rated output power) 24/7 ... I've never ever had to repair one. In fact, the only Kenwood TKR-850 Repeater we've ever had to really fix was sent in from out of state, struck by lightning... and that fix was relatively easy (all things considered). We do carefully pop the access cover off to properly set-up the Receiver Pre-Selector up using a very specialized RF Cable few other Dealers have/use (yeah, we sell them). But after a proper Dealer Setup, they live quite happily at their max rated power even if not rated on paper as such. And of course we also throw out the same we can't officially recommend it disclaimer. And... We still service the older TKR-720 and TKR-820 Repeaters. I doubt most people would be able over-heat and kill the PA in a New Kenwood TKR-750 or TKR-850 repeater (with free air movement around the exhaust fan opening)... even if they tried (and I've seen a few examples where people seem to have with out luck, tried to kill a repeater). cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com http://yahoo.com/ www.radiowrench.com http://www.radiowrench.com/ Authorized Kenwood Pyramid Sales and Service (Dealer) (707) 678-4187 (707) 446-3419 cell k7...@... wrote: Hi Ken and Norm, On my UHF LTR system I have several home channels in the 5 ch system that are almost continuous transmit during the date time. I have the TKR850's running at 35wt and they have survived for two years so far with no ill affects. At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken
Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Eric Lemmon wrote: Paul, You have put your finger on the major difference between modern Motorola and Kenwood radios. Kenwood chose to equip their products to process only the 180-degree phase shift reverse-burst squelch tail elimination scheme, while Motorola Professional Series radios can be programmed for either 180-degree or 120-degree phase shift. TIA-603-C, the international standard for land-mobile radio performance, recognizes both reverse schemes as equally viable. Kenwood may recapture some market share, once their radios are equipped to encode and decode reverse burst in either scheme. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY Trouble with that is, I have never had a problem decoding Motorola R/B on a newer Kenwood...anything from the 05D's up, and H/H since the 250/350's...it's mostly the made-for-ham that had trouble, and that's changed in the last few years too. Mostly.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Norm, You are correct about the firmware, but it affects all channels in the radio. When I last checked on this issue with Kenwood tech support, they did not have a fix that allowed changing the reverse burst on a per-channel basis- it was all or nothing. My local PD uses Kenwood TKR-840 repeaters, TK-380 and TK-390 portables, and TK-890 mobiles. It would be nice if they could be programmed to silently mute on the County Sheriff's Motorola system, but those channels still have an annoying squelch crash. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of NORM KNAPP Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:45 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater I am pretty sure there is already a firmware fix for this in dealer tools. We had a customer buy 3 new tkr-850's. He otherwise had mostly moto portables. When he heard the sql crash, he wanted it either fixed or his old repeaters back (2 unidens and a standard). We got on the phone with tech support and had firmware in moments... - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat Dec 12 08:01:20 2009 Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Paul, It depends on what portables you are using with the Kenwood repeater. Some, but not all of the newer CPS programmed equipment have a setting checkbox marked something like Use non-standard PL decode which can be set on a per channel basis. With this feature enabled the squelch crash issue goes away. I have seen this on the HT750/1250/1550 and CDM products. If the portables are older then you either have to live with the crash or you can have a dealer contact Kenwood about changing the timing in firmware (not a cheap option). Milt N3LTQ Quoting Paul Dumdie w9...@sbcglobal.net mailto:w9dwp%40sbcglobal.net mailto:w9dwp%40sbcglobal.net : I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com Yahoo! Groups Links
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug)
OK let me give you another dealer input Yes we are a Kenwood and also an Icom dealer. From our own use we for our in house systems use both brands of repeaters. If I was going to do a 2 meter today I would use the ICOM FR-5000 the new 50 watt unit. A Government Customer bought some of the newer generation Icom Repeaters from another dealer for a pretty good size LTR Trunking System. I was asked by the Trunking Controller Mfgr (CSI) to help trouble-shoot an on-going drop out problem, which was traced back to the discriminator output of the Icom Receiver. The receiver would chop/slice sections of the recovered discriminator signal well within the normal expected bandwidth. The customer ended up replacing those receiver models with different equipment. And they/we found the problem with more than one Icom Repeater Receiver Model. I would suggest new buyers of what I call the newer low tier/cost Icom Repeaters have a look at the receiver discriminator output with a service monitor (scope) so you aren't fighting a non uniform discriminator output problem... not so easily fixed. Icom like all the others makes some pretty decent gear... but some of the newer lower tier repeaters have that known issue, which I feel is pretty darn important to know about when starting out. cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com
[possible spam] Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood DealerPlug)
And don't forget the TKR-730/830 if you can find them. 5 watts max and they will need an external controller. The RX is awesome. For the Kenwood also look at the TKR 740 and TKR 840 units the receive is very good. Cost is what drives most customers... and the customers clearly after the 730/830/740/840 will at first glance probably suffer less of a sticker shock than most non commercial type seeing the above model price sheets for the first time. And the above models are often designed into higher power radio systems to work with trailing external RF Amplifiers (mo' additional money). s.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug)
We (I say WE, I work for a Kenwood/Harris/Icom/Johnson/etc...dealer) have tried some of the new digital icom repeaters. I do not remember the model number. We put 4 of them on an LTR site (analog mode) and 3 of them in a chemical plant (also analog mode) and the receivers like much to be desired. They seem to be about as selective as a uniden scanner. Sensitivity is not a problem however. ;-) - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat Dec 12 15:42:51 2009 Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) OK let me give you another dealer input Yes we are a Kenwood and also an Icom dealer. From our own use we for our in house systems use both brands of repeaters. If I was going to do a 2 meter today I would use the ICOM FR-5000 the new 50 watt unit. A Government Customer bought some of the newer generation Icom Repeaters from another dealer for a pretty good size LTR Trunking System. I was asked by the Trunking Controller Mfgr (CSI) to help trouble-shoot an on-going drop out problem, which was traced back to the discriminator output of the Icom Receiver. The receiver would chop/slice sections of the recovered discriminator signal well within the normal expected bandwidth. The customer ended up replacing those receiver models with different equipment. And they/we found the problem with more than one Icom Repeater Receiver Model. I would suggest new buyers of what I call the newer low tier/cost Icom Repeaters have a look at the receiver discriminator output with a service monitor (scope) so you aren't fighting a non uniform discriminator output problem... not so easily fixed. Icom like all the others makes some pretty decent gear... but some of the newer lower tier repeaters have that known issue, which I feel is pretty darn important to know about when starting out. cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
So running my 750 K2 at 50 watts for an hour or 2 solid when its hooked up to a busy Echonlink system should be ok and I should worry less? I have been testing some and it seems to run fine. KB7DZR Scott --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah...@... wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Scott, I would turn it down to 40wt for the VHF model if that is what your looking to do on an Echolink node. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of offtracks1 Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:05 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater So running my 750 K2 at 50 watts for an hour or 2 solid when its hooked up to a busy Echonlink system should be ok and I should worry less? I have been testing some and it seems to run fine. KB7DZR Scott --- In Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah...@... wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcon http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ trollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp. http://www.irlp.net net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 10:06:00
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Mike Thanks, That is easy to do with the software I see. Scott KB7DZR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k7...@... wrote: Scott, I would turn it down to 40wt for the VHF model if that is what your looking to do on an Echolink node. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of offtracks1 Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:05 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater So running my 750 K2 at 50 watts for an hour or 2 solid when its hooked up to a busy Echonlink system should be ok and I should worry less? I have been testing some and it seems to run fine. KB7DZR Scott --- In Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah6le@ wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcon http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ trollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp. http://www.irlp.net net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 10:06:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Sure, program the fan to run continuously regardless of temp and you should be fine. - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri Dec 11 11:04:38 2009 Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater So running my 750 K2 at 50 watts for an hour or 2 solid when its hooked up to a busy Echonlink system should be ok and I should worry less? I have been testing some and it seems to run fine. KB7DZR Scott --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Ken Arck ah...@... wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Mike Took a look at it today in the software for my TKR-750 K2. I set the high power setting in the settings at 200. My watt meter is a poor one to use so I really do not trust it when it say 40 watts, Its not a good Bird Meter. Is that number good? Scott KB7DZR. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k7...@... wrote: Scott, I would turn it down to 40wt for the VHF model if that is what your looking to do on an Echolink node. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of offtracks1 Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:05 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater So running my 750 K2 at 50 watts for an hour or 2 solid when its hooked up to a busy Echonlink system should be ok and I should worry less? I have been testing some and it seems to run fine. KB7DZR Scott --- In Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah6le@ wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcon http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ trollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp. http://www.irlp.net net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 10:06:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Hi Scott, You cant go by that reading. Borrow a good watt meter would be the safe thing to do. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of offtracks1 Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:54 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater Mike Took a look at it today in the software for my TKR-750 K2. I set the high power setting in the settings at 200. My watt meter is a poor one to use so I really do not trust it when it say 40 watts, Its not a good Bird Meter. Is that number good? Scott KB7DZR. --- In Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, k7...@... wrote: Scott, I would turn it down to 40wt for the VHF model if that is what your looking to do on an Echolink node. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of offtracks1 Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:05 AM To: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater So running my 750 K2 at 50 watts for an hour or 2 solid when its hooked up to a busy Echonlink system should be ok and I should worry less? I have been testing some and it seems to run fine. KB7DZR Scott --- In Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah6le@ wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcon http://www.arcomcon http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ trollers.com/ trollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp. http://www.irlp. http://www.irlp.net net net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 10:06:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 10:06:00
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Thanks mike. I know its off of the high point some. I will get a better meter on it. The Kenwood is a very nice repeater its been nice to work with and has super audio. Thanks for the help Scott KB7DZR --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, k7...@... wrote: Hi Scott, You cant go by that reading. Borrow a good watt meter would be the safe thing to do. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of offtracks1 Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 4:54 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater Mike Took a look at it today in the software for my TKR-750 K2. I set the high power setting in the settings at 200. My watt meter is a poor one to use so I really do not trust it when it say 40 watts, Its not a good Bird Meter. Is that number good? Scott KB7DZR. --- In Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, k7pfj@ wrote: Scott, I would turn it down to 40wt for the VHF model if that is what your looking to do on an Echolink node. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, Co 80504 303-954-9695 Home 303-954-9693 Home Office Fax 303-718-8052 Cellular _ From: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of offtracks1 Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:05 AM To: Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater So running my 750 K2 at 50 watts for an hour or 2 solid when its hooked up to a busy Echonlink system should be ok and I should worry less? I have been testing some and it seems to run fine. KB7DZR Scott --- In Repeater-Builder@ mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah6le@ wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcon http://www.arcomcon http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ trollers.com/ trollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp. http://www.irlp. http://www.irlp.net net net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 10:06:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.426 / Virus Database: 270.14.103/2558 - Release Date: 12/11/09 10:06:00
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug)
Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) My turn, As an Authorized Kenwood Sales and Full Service Dealer with easily more than 50 Kenwood Version 2 TKR-750 TKR-850 Repeaters going full tilt (full rated output power) 24/7 ... I've never ever had to repair one. In fact, the only Kenwood TKR-850 Repeater we've ever had to really fix was sent in from out of state, struck by lightning... and that fix was relatively easy (all things considered). We do carefully pop the access cover off to properly set-up the Receiver Pre-Selector up using a very specialized RF Cable few other Dealers have/use (yeah, we sell them). But after a proper Dealer Setup, they live quite happily at their max rated power even if not rated on paper as such. And of course we also throw out the same we can't officially recommend it disclaimer. And... We still service the older TKR-720 and TKR-820 Repeaters. I doubt most people would be able over-heat and kill the PA in a New Kenwood TKR-750 or TKR-850 repeater (with free air movement around the exhaust fan opening)... even if they tried (and I've seen a few examples where people seem to have with out luck, tried to kill a repeater). cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com Authorized Kenwood Pyramid Sales and Service (Dealer) (707) 678-4187 (707) 446-3419 cell k7...@... wrote: Hi Ken and Norm, On my UHF LTR system I have several home channels in the 5 ch system that are almost continuous transmit during the date time. I have the TKR850's running at 35wt and they have survived for two years so far with no ill affects. At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug)
So for all of you super experienced repeater builders out there, this is probably sound elementry. I am very new to repeater building. I have been working with Moto gear almost exclusively. But after viewing the interior components and the programming of the new Kenwood TKR- repeaters, I would say that they are the way to go.. They are easier to work on than the Moto stuff, and the recievers are much more sensative than the Moto stuff that I have been using... Skipp, not a Shameless Plug, you speak the truth! Excellent gear. Tim On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 7:42 PM, skipp025 skipp...@yahoo.com wrote: Re: 50 Watt Repeater (Shameless Kenwood Dealer Plug) My turn, As an Authorized Kenwood Sales and Full Service Dealer with easily more than 50 Kenwood Version 2 TKR-750 TKR-850 Repeaters going full tilt (full rated output power) 24/7 ... I've never ever had to repair one. In fact, the only Kenwood TKR-850 Repeater we've ever had to really fix was sent in from out of state, struck by lightning... and that fix was relatively easy (all things considered). We do carefully pop the access cover off to properly set-up the Receiver Pre-Selector up using a very specialized RF Cable few other Dealers have/use (yeah, we sell them). But after a proper Dealer Setup, they live quite happily at their max rated power even if not rated on paper as such. And of course we also throw out the same we can't officially recommend it disclaimer. And... We still service the older TKR-720 and TKR-820 Repeaters. I doubt most people would be able over-heat and kill the PA in a New Kenwood TKR-750 or TKR-850 repeater (with free air movement around the exhaust fan opening)... even if they tried (and I've seen a few examples where people seem to have with out luck, tried to kill a repeater). cheers, skipp skipp025 at yahoo.com www.radiowrench.com Authorized Kenwood Pyramid Sales and Service (Dealer) (707) 678-4187 (707) 446-3419 cell k7...@... wrote: Hi Ken and Norm, On my UHF LTR system I have several home channels in the 5 ch system that are almost continuous transmit during the date time. I have the TKR850's running at 35wt and they have survived for two years so far with no ill affects. At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken
[Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Paul Dumdie wrote: I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Assuming you mean you have Motorolas that have the switch in software, Kenwood and virtually everyone else in the world uses 180-degree shift for rev burst, so whatever that setting is. Moto uses 120-degree shift, and nearly no one else does.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Paul, You have put your finger on the major difference between modern Motorola and Kenwood radios. Kenwood chose to equip their products to process only the 180-degree phase shift reverse-burst squelch tail elimination scheme, while Motorola Professional Series radios can be programmed for either 180-degree or 120-degree phase shift. TIA-603-C, the international standard for land-mobile radio performance, recognizes both reverse schemes as equally viable. Kenwood may recapture some market share, once their radios are equipped to encode and decode reverse burst in either scheme. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Dumdie Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:12 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com
RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Eric, So what settings should you have for the Motorola radios to avoid the squelch tail in the system? Reverse burst turned on or off? Thanks Peter Summerhawk From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:22 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Paul, You have put your finger on the major difference between modern Motorola and Kenwood radios. Kenwood chose to equip their products to process only the 180-degree phase shift reverse-burst squelch tail elimination scheme, while Motorola Professional Series radios can be programmed for either 180-degree or 120-degree phase shift. TIA-603-C, the international standard for land-mobile radio performance, recognizes both reverse schemes as equally viable. Kenwood may recapture some market share, once their radios are equipped to encode and decode reverse burst in either scheme. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Paul Dumdie Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:12 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater
Either way you are going to hear a squelch crash. If you turn reverse burst on, your transmitter will stay keyed slightly longer while it is transmitting the out of phase pl signal that makes a compatible receiver instantly mute. The Kenwood repeater receiver is not compatible (so it seems). There is about three possibilities I can think of to rid your system of squelch crash. None of witch are real easy to accomplish. Easiest of all would be to make the users pl pass through the repeater. Would still hear squelch crashes if your mobile radios mic was off hook or your portables were not set to decode pl. 1) install an audio delay board between the controller and receiver audio input. But that would only eliminate the squelch tail while users were talking (as long as the repeater transmitter remains keyed) You are always going to hear a squelch crash when the repeater transmitter unkeys unless you can figure a way to transmit pl tone only when there is cos and make the hang time slightly longer than the time it takes your Motorola receivers to mute. 2) Install a community repeater tone panel (repeater controller) capable compatible with Motorola reverse burst on both transmit and receive. Would require disabling the repeaters internal controller. Probably the best way. 3) install a pl decoder (like a TS-64 from Comm Spec) on the repeater receiver and transmitter each compatible with Motorola reverse burst. I do not know for sure if the TS-64 is motorola compatible. Would require bypass of the repeaters internal decoder and interfacing the encoder and decoder to the proper place in the transmitter and controller. There may be other ways that I have not thought of, anyone else? tom Peter Dakota Summerhawk wrote: Eric, So what settings should you have for the Motorola radios to avoid the squelch tail in the system? Reverse burst turned on or off? Thanks Peter Summerhawk *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Lemmon *Sent:* Friday, December 11, 2009 10:22 PM *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* RE: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater Paul, You have put your finger on the major difference between modern Motorola and Kenwood radios. Kenwood chose to equip their products to process only the 180-degree phase shift reverse-burst squelch tail elimination scheme, while Motorola Professional Series radios can be programmed for either 180-degree or 120-degree phase shift. TIA-603-C, the international standard for land-mobile radio performance, recognizes both reverse schemes as equally viable. Kenwood may recapture some market share, once their radios are equipped to encode and decode reverse burst in either scheme. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Dumdie Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:12 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] RE: 50 Watt Repeater I have a TKR-750 repeater and like it. My only issue is that I use Motorola Portables and keep getting a squelch crash. What have you guys setting the setting for the reverse burst at to get rid of the squelch crash? Thanks! Paul R. Dumdie Jr. 73 W9DWP/R IRLP-NODE-4455 443.025/2A 145.270/1B/1Z/NAC-293 ARC-Radio-8 KCARES KCAPS HERD546 EX WB9QWZ WQGG738-462.725 AAR5CU/T www.riflesandradios.com www.theherd.com
