[sage-devel] Weird power series bug

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

I discovered a weird bug on power series when computing the inverse of a
serie. Look at this.

This computation gives the expected result

sage: L. = LazyPowerSeriesRing(QQ)

sage: f = 1 - z - z^2

sage: b = ~f

sage: b.compute_coefficients(10)

sage: b

1 + z + 2*z^2 + 3*z^3 + 5*z^4 + 8*z^5 + 13*z^6 + 21*z^7 + 34*z^8 + 55*z^9 +
89*z^10 + O(x^11)

But not this one:

sage: L. = LazyPowerSeriesRing(QQ)

sage: f = 1 - z - z^2

sage: f.compute_coefficients(10)

sage: f

1 - z - z^2 + O(x^11)
sage: b = ~f

sage: b.compute_coefficients(10)

sage: b

1 + z^1 + z^2 + z^3 + ...

Another example with Catalan numbers

sage: L. = LazyPowerSeriesRing(QQ)
sage: C = L()

sage: C.define(1 + z*C*C)

sage: Cinv = ~C

sage: Cinv.compute_coefficients(10); Cinv

1 - z - z^2 - 2*z^3 - 5*z^4 - 14*z^5 - 42*z^6 - 132*z^7 - 429*z^8 -
1430*z^9 - 4862*z^10 + O(x^11)

sage: C = L()

sage: C.define(1 +z*C*C)

sage: C.compute_coefficients(10);C

1 + z + 2*z^2 + 5*z^3 + 14*z^4 + 42*z^5 + 132*z^6 + 429*z^7 + 1430*z^8 +
4862*z^9 + 16796*z^10 + O(x^11)
sage: Cinv = ~C

sage: Cinv.compute_coefficients(10);Cinv

1 + z^1 + z^2 + z^3 + ...

How Come??

This is Sage 9.2. I haven't tried on other versions

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[sage-devel] sage_sample

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

I am adapting the sage_sample package (
https://github.com/sagemath/sage_sample) to make it work on sage 9 / python
3. At the moment, my local install works but I have problems installing the
new sage image on the TravisCI server. Also, I saw that it is possible to
use Docker with Travis and it sounds like it could be a good solution (at
the moment, from what I understand, the Travis server has to run a full
install from source). I am no expert on these things, so here are my
questions:

 * is there any example of a package using Travis CI testing on sage9 and
maybe with docker that I could use as an example?

 * also, is there a way to run the tests automatically whenever a new
version of sage is released (I am specifically interested in this part for
some other project).

I hope you're all doing ok in these troubled times.

Cheers,

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Sage Days Nigeria

[Viviane Pons]

Dear Sage people,

we have an opportunity to organize some Sage Days in Nigeria (university of
Ibadan). These would be targeted mostly at local people of the university
of Ibadan and other Nigerian universities. We have a local contact who is
in charge of all the practical aspects.

We are looking for volunteers with good Sage knowledge who would be willing
to travel to Nigeria and organize the Sage aspects. I won't be able to
attend but Erik is already very interested. OpenDreamKit project would take
care of all expenses.

The preferred dates are for now July 15-- 19 2019.

Please let me know if you want to come!

Viviane

PS : Nigeria cannot be considered "safe" as a whole country. Nevertheless,
the region of Ibadan is in the safest part, it is considered ok by the
French website
https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/conseils-aux-voyageurs/conseils-par-pays-destination/nigeria/#securite
which I use for all my trips in weird parts of the world. It's a "yellow"
zone. I have been to many yellow zones. We will check with our university
what specific security measures we have to take.

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[sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days Nigeria

[Viviane Pons]

Dear Sage people,

we have an opportunity to organize some Sage Days in Nigeria (university of
Ibadan). These would be targeted mostly at local people of the university
of Ibadan and other Nigerian universities. We have a local contact who is
in charge of all the practical aspects.

We are looking for volunteers with good Sage knowledge who would be willing
to travel to Nigeria and organize the Sage aspects. I won't be able to
attend but Erik is already very interested. OpenDreamKit project would take
care of all expenses.

The preferred dates are for now July 15-- 19 2019.

Please let me know if you want to come!

Viviane

PS : Nigeria cannot be considered "safe" as a whole country. Nevertheless,
the region of Ibadan is in the safest part, it is considered ok by the
French website
https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/conseils-aux-voyageurs/conseils-par-pays-destination/nigeria/#securite
which I use for all my trips in weird parts of the world. It's a "yellow"
zone. I have been to many yellow zones. We will check with our university
what specific security measures we have to take.

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[sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 98 -- Women in sage

[Viviane Pons]

Dear fellow developers,

I am organizing a "Women in Sage" event with Eleni Tzanaki: April 9 -- 12
in Archanes, Crete.

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days98

All local expenses are covered and we can provide travel funding.

The number of participants is limited: applications are due by Feb. 28. All
Sage levels are welcome: from novice to expert. Please share this among
your departments and students.

Best regards

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Sage Days 98 -- Women in sage

[Viviane Pons]

Dear fellow developers,

I am organizing a "Women in Sage" event with Eleni Tzanaki: April 9 -- 12
in Archanes, Crete.

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days98

All local expenses are covered and we can provide travel funding.

The number of participants is limited: applications are due by Feb. 28. All
Sage levels are welcome: from novice to expert. Please share this among
your departments and students.

Best regards

Viviane

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[sage-combinat-devel] Call to registration to "Calcul Mathématique Libre" CIRM Feb 11-15 2019

[Viviane Pons]

Dear colleagues and fellow developers,

This is reminder for the conference "Calcul Mathématique Libre" which we
organize in CIRM (Marseilles) on Feb 11-15, 2019. Please register **before
January 7**.

This community building and training conference aims to bring together
users and developers of (open source) (pure) mathematics software,
including GAP, Linbox, MPIR, Pari/GP, SageMath, or Singular. Following
a long trend of highly productive workshops within the various
communities (e.g. the Sage-Days series), this conference will consist
of keynote talks and hands on tutorials with a focus on experimental
research and computational and development best practices; and plenty
of free time for interactions and collaborative work.

This conference is organized by the H2020 European project
OpenDreamKit, of which it will be the main public closing event.

Keynote speakers:

- Marie-Françoise Roy (Université de Rennes 1)
  A historical perspective on contributions of researchers and teachers to
(open source) mathematical software
- Max Horn (Justus-Liebig-Universität Gießen)
  Collaborative software development in a large system (GAP)
- Fernando Perez (Berkeley Institute for Data Science, California)
  Scientific computing, user interfaces, and community building
- Anne Schilling (UC Davis California)
  Impact of computer assisted experimentation in combinatorics
- Joris Van Der Hoeven (Ecole Polytechnique)
  General purpose mathematical software design

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[sage-devel] Call to registration to "Calcul Mathématique Libre" CIRM Feb 11-15 2019

[Viviane Pons]

Dear colleagues and fellow developers,

This is reminder for the conference "Calcul Mathématique Libre" which we
organize in CIRM (Marseilles) on Feb 11-15, 2019. Please register **before
January 7**.

This community building and training conference aims to bring together
users and developers of (open source) (pure) mathematics software,
including GAP, Linbox, MPIR, Pari/GP, SageMath, or Singular. Following
a long trend of highly productive workshops within the various
communities (e.g. the Sage-Days series), this conference will consist
of keynote talks and hands on tutorials with a focus on experimental
research and computational and development best practices; and plenty
of free time for interactions and collaborative work.

This conference is organized by the H2020 European project
OpenDreamKit, of which it will be the main public closing event.

Keynote speakers:

- Marie-Françoise Roy (Université de Rennes 1)
  A historical perspective on contributions of researchers and teachers to
(open source) mathematical software
- Max Horn (Justus-Liebig-Universität Gießen)
  Collaborative software development in a large system (GAP)
- Fernando Perez (Berkeley Institute for Data Science, California)
  Scientific computing, user interfaces, and community building
- Anne Schilling (UC Davis California)
  Impact of computer assisted experimentation in combinatorics
- Joris Van Der Hoeven (Ecole Polytechnique)
  General purpose mathematical software design

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[sage-devel] Report on WomenInSage

[Viviane Pons]

It was a great event! You can read all about it here:

http://opendreamkit.org/2017/04/06/WomenInSage/

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question on 3D plots

[Viviane Pons]

Great! I'm looking at this with Alba Malaga who is with me at Sage Days. I
just added her on the ticket as well.

We also noticed some other weirdness in some other plot3D objects. We are
here at sage days for the whole week so just let us know when you want and
how you want to discuss it.

Best

Viviane

2017-01-10 20:26 GMT+01:00 Frédéric Chapoton <fchapot...@gmail.com>:

> I am just working on similar questions, see https://trac.sagemath.org/
> ticket/22144
>
> on pourrait en causer directement ?
>
> Frederic
>
>
> Le mardi 10 janvier 2017 17:59:16 UTC+1, Viviane Pons a écrit :
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm introspecting 3D plots right now to fix some issues we have with sdl
>> export. I notice the following:
>>
>> sage: d = dodecahedron()
>> sage: type(d)
>> 
>> sage: p = Polyhedron([(0,0,0), (1,0,0), (0,1,0), (0,0,1)])
>> sage: pp = p.plot()
>> sage: type(pp)
>> 
>>
>>
>> both d and pp show in 3d in jmol but as you can see, they're not the same
>> type. We noticed that IndexFaceSet (whatever this is) converts directly
>> into sdl but NOT Graphcs3dGroup. Our goal is to have a direct SDL export
>> for polyhedrons and we're trying to understand what are those two types and
>> what is the best way to proceed.
>>
>> Does anyone know something about it?
>>
>> Best
>>
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[sage-devel] Question on 3D plots

[Viviane Pons]

Hi all,

I'm introspecting 3D plots right now to fix some issues we have with sdl
export. I notice the following:

sage: d = dodecahedron()
sage: type(d)

sage: p = Polyhedron([(0,0,0), (1,0,0), (0,1,0), (0,0,1)])
sage: pp = p.plot()
sage: type(pp)



both d and pp show in 3d in jmol but as you can see, they're not the same
type. We noticed that IndexFaceSet (whatever this is) converts directly
into sdl but NOT Graphcs3dGroup. Our goal is to have a direct SDL export
for polyhedrons and we're trying to understand what are those two types and
what is the best way to proceed.

Does anyone know something about it?

Best

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[sage-devel] Sage Days 82, Women in Sage

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

the first ever workshop for women in Sage in Europe (the previous ones were
in the US) will be organized January 9 - 13, 2017 by Jessica Striker,
Jennifer Balakrishnan, and myself.

We will rent a house in Paris area and organize coding sprints, tutorials,
and presentations.

All Sage levels are welcome: from novice to expert.

All informations are here: https://wiki.sagemath.org/days82

Applications are due October 31. **Food and lodging are provided by the
conference**

Please share this among your departments and students.

Best

Viviane

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[sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 82, Women in Sage

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

the first ever workshop for women in Sage in Europe (the previous ones were
in the US) will be organized January 9 - 13, 2017 by Jessica Striker,
Jennifer Balakrishnan, and myself.

We will rent a house in Paris area and organize coding sprints, tutorials,
and presentations.

All Sage levels are welcome: from novice to expert.

All informations are here: https://wiki.sagemath.org/days82

Applications are due October 31. **Food and lodging are provided by the
conference**

Please share this among your departments and students.

Best

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ssh fail

[Viviane Pons]

Hi,

I'm with two new sage git users: eviatarbach and avenrias and they seem to
have a similar problem. They have put their ssh key on trac (I've checked),
but it keeps saying "Permission denied (publickey)" when they try

ssh -T g...@trac.sagemath.org info

Here is what they get:

OpenSSH_7.2p2 Ubuntu-4ubuntu1, OpenSSL 1.0.2g-fips  1 Mar 2016
debug1: Reading configuration data /etc/ssh/ssh_config
debug1: /etc/ssh/ssh_config line 19: Applying options for *
debug1: Connecting to trac.sagemath.org [104.197.143.230] port 22.
debug1: Connection established.
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_rsa type 1
debug1: key_load_public: No such file or directory
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_rsa-cert type -1
debug1: key_load_public: No such file or directory
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_dsa type -1
debug1: key_load_public: No such file or directory
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_dsa-cert type -1
debug1: key_load_public: No such file or directory
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_ecdsa type -1
debug1: key_load_public: No such file or directory
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_ecdsa-cert type -1
debug1: key_load_public: No such file or directory
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_ed25519 type -1
debug1: key_load_public: No such file or directory
debug1: identity file /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_ed25519-cert type -1
debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0
debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_7.2p2 Ubuntu-4ubuntu1
debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version
OpenSSH_6.6.1p1 Ubuntu-2ubuntu2.7
debug1: match: OpenSSH_6.6.1p1 Ubuntu-2ubuntu2.7 pat OpenSSH_6.6.1* compat
0x0400
debug1: Authenticating to trac.sagemath.org:22 as 'git'
debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent
debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT received
debug1: kex: algorithm: curve25519-sha...@libssh.org
debug1: kex: host key algorithm: ecdsa-sha2-nistp256
debug1: kex: server->client cipher: chacha20-poly1...@openssh.com MAC:
 compression: none
debug1: kex: client->server cipher: chacha20-poly1...@openssh.com MAC:
 compression: none
debug1: expecting SSH2_MSG_KEX_ECDH_REPLY
debug1: Server host key: ecdsa-sha2-nistp256
SHA256:PLGYHWgGgFuDw+Xqa8TSHaJ9AZlcXIiaYUdlrNN1sFU
debug1: Host 'trac.sagemath.org' is known and matches the ECDSA host key.
debug1: Found key in /home/eviatar/.ssh/known_hosts:2
debug1: rekey after 134217728 blocks
debug1: SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS sent
debug1: expecting SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS
debug1: rekey after 134217728 blocks
debug1: SSH2_MSG_NEWKEYS received
debug1: SSH2_MSG_SERVICE_ACCEPT received
debug1: Authentications that can continue: publickey
debug1: Next authentication method: publickey
debug1: Offering RSA public key: /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_rsa
debug1: Authentications that can continue: publickey
debug1: Trying private key: /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_dsa
debug1: Trying private key: /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_ecdsa
debug1: Trying private key: /home/eviatar/.ssh/id_ed25519
debug1: No more authentication methods to try.



2016-06-29 3:56 GMT-07:00 tara fife :

> Thanks everyone, I am able to push changes to trac now.
>
> Tara
>
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[sage-combinat-devel] Program for Sage Days 78

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

the program for Sage Days 78 in Vancouver is now on line:

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78

If you intend to join us please register if you haven't done so already!

Best

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Program for Sage Days 78

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

the program for Sage Days 78 in Vancouver is now on line:

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78

If you intend to join us please register if you haven't done so already!

Best

Viviane

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[sage-combinat-devel] Re: SageDays78 Announcement

[Viviane Pons]

Little correction; it is Mike Zabrocki (and not Zabroky as I spelled it,
sorry Mike!)

2016-04-07 14:25 GMT+02:00 Viviane Pons <vivianep...@gmail.com>:

> Dear all,
>
> here is a reminder about the SageDays78 in Vancouver, June 29 to July 1st
> 2016:
>
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78
>
> And some information:
>
> * Mike Zabroky will be our invited speaker
> * We have some (limited) student funding available, please send your
> request before April 30.
>
> Best
>
> Viviane
>
>
>
> 2016-03-03 10:38 GMT+01:00 Viviane Pons <vivianep...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I'm happy to announce SageDays78 to happen in Vancouver, June 29 to July
>> 1st 2016:
>>
>> https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78
>>
>> These SageDays are organized as a satellite event of the combinatorics
>> conference FPSAC. The main topic will then be combinatorics. Please follow
>> the link for more information and registration.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Viviane
>>
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: SageDays78 Announcement

[Viviane Pons]

Little correction; it is Mike Zabrocki (and not Zabroky as I spelled it,
sorry Mike!)

2016-04-07 14:25 GMT+02:00 Viviane Pons <vivianep...@gmail.com>:

> Dear all,
>
> here is a reminder about the SageDays78 in Vancouver, June 29 to July 1st
> 2016:
>
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78
>
> And some information:
>
> * Mike Zabroky will be our invited speaker
> * We have some (limited) student funding available, please send your
> request before April 30.
>
> Best
>
> Viviane
>
>
>
> 2016-03-03 10:38 GMT+01:00 Viviane Pons <vivianep...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I'm happy to announce SageDays78 to happen in Vancouver, June 29 to July
>> 1st 2016:
>>
>> https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78
>>
>> These SageDays are organized as a satellite event of the combinatorics
>> conference FPSAC. The main topic will then be combinatorics. Please follow
>> the link for more information and registration.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Viviane
>>
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: SageDays78 Announcement

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

here is a reminder about the SageDays78 in Vancouver, June 29 to July 1st
2016:

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78

And some information:

* Mike Zabroky will be our invited speaker
* We have some (limited) student funding available, please send your
request before April 30.

Best

Viviane



2016-03-03 10:38 GMT+01:00 Viviane Pons <vivianep...@gmail.com>:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm happy to announce SageDays78 to happen in Vancouver, June 29 to July
> 1st 2016:
>
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78
>
> These SageDays are organized as a satellite event of the combinatorics
> conference FPSAC. The main topic will then be combinatorics. Please follow
> the link for more information and registration.
>
> Best
>
> Viviane
>

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[sage-combinat-devel] Re: SageDays78 Announcement

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

here is a reminder about the SageDays78 in Vancouver, June 29 to July 1st
2016:

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78

And some information:

* Mike Zabroky will be our invited speaker
* We have some (limited) student funding available, please send your
request before April 30.

Best

Viviane



2016-03-03 10:38 GMT+01:00 Viviane Pons <vivianep...@gmail.com>:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm happy to announce SageDays78 to happen in Vancouver, June 29 to July
> 1st 2016:
>
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78
>
> These SageDays are organized as a satellite event of the combinatorics
> conference FPSAC. The main topic will then be combinatorics. Please follow
> the link for more information and registration.
>
> Best
>
> Viviane
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Why set([1]) is printed nicely while set([]) is not?

[Viviane Pons]

I would say it's a python thing, and it's probably because {} is actually a
dictionarry and not a set.

2016-04-01 11:04 GMT+02:00 Sébastien Labbé :

> sage: set([1])
> {1}
> sage: set()
> set()
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Bye

[Viviane Pons]

Note that I wasn't saying anything about Nathann's opinions, and I even
said that some of them were valuable. We could / should debate many things,
and I think these debates happen (as William pointed out about the name). I
was mostly defending myself against a false accusation as I am part, I
guess, of "Nicolas and his team".

What I was saying is the way Nathann raises these questions, and gives his
opinion in general, is often offending in many ways (it has been towards me
multiple times and towards lots of other people) which is bad for the
community on the long term because we loose valuable contributions. And if
he's not able to do it in an other way, then I prefer him gone even if this
means we loose a good developer. If whenever you do "something", either a
promotional video or a track ticket or whatever, you take the risk of being
accused, attacked, or even insulted, then the conclusion is you do nothing
ever again: no risk taken! And some people have started to go this way.

>From Nathann's message, I understand he believes many people in Sage work
mostly for their personal interests against the community, "exploiting" his
own work. I think this is completely false and that he is in no place to
make such an accusation. But if it is what he truly believes, then, yes, he
should leave and stop this recurrent accusations. And it will be better for
us.

Best

Viviane

2016-03-09 16:05 GMT+01:00 Vincent Delecroix <20100.delecr...@gmail.com>:

> Hello,
>
> One point I think Nathann has right and was not discussed further is the
> fact that Sage the distribution is tightly linked to Sage the company. Some
> examples:
>  - the "forced" change of names by William from Sage to SageMath when the
> company is SageMath Inc.
>  - websites: sagemath.org for the distribution whereas sagemath.com for
> the company
>  - loud advertising from sagemath.org
>
> I feel great that SageMath Inc exists. And I think that it proposes a
> useful service especially concerning collaborative work. But I would feel
> better if it was either more collaboratively discussed (e.g. at the same
> level that Sage code is discussed). Or more disconnected from Sage the
> distribution (e.g. not playing with the *.org vs *.com).
>
> Moreover, the cloud service proposed by SageMath Inc is much more than
> just Sage. It would have been natural to choose an other name from the
> beginning.
>
> Best,
> Vincent
>
>
> On 26/02/16 10:58, mmarco wrote:
>
>> Wow, this whole discussion, and the subsequent thread opened by William
>> have really blown my mind a little bit.
>>
>> I disagree with most of the objections raised by Nathann. I have to say
>> that the impression I got from them at the beginning have changed as the
>> discussion has evolved and  his points have been clarified. I also dislike
>> his (sometimes aggresive, sometimes disrispectful) style when writing in
>> this group.
>>
>> But I really respect the fact that he takes a moral position about what he
>> considers to be an ethical problem. And I am really happy that he has
>> raised these questions, and that we have had this discusion. As Rogaway
>> [1]
>> recently stated, it is important that we, scientists, take into
>> consideration the moral implications of our work; so I am literally
>> delighted to see a discussion about the morality of what we do in
>> sage-devel.
>>
>> At the beginning, I thought that the main problem that Nathan was pointing
>> to had to do with the money. The fact that somebody (he particularizes in
>> William, but also makes some comments about the OpenDreamKit grant) makes
>> money using the Sage code was -or I thought it was- thecore moral problem.
>> I don't agree with that view, for a couple of reasons:
>>
>> 1) All Sage code is GPL'ed, which means not only that everybody has the
>> legal right to use it as apart as a business model (provided the
>> conditions
>> of the GPL are respected); but also that the people that wrote that code
>> have given an explicit permission to do so. The fact that the use of Sage
>> code in SMC is legal is not the consequence of some loophole in the law.
>> It
>> is the consequence of the explicit permission of the code writers to
>> everybody that wants to use the code with basically the only condition of
>> not relicensing it. That clearly includes the kind of use that SMC does,
>> so
>> I definitely see no moral problem there. William can use my code in SMC
>> because I explicitely gave him (and everybody else) permission to use it
>> in
>> that way (and many other possible ways too). Same applyes for the rest of
>> the developpers.
>>
>> 2) If we to to a lower level in the moral discussion, and leaving law
>> aside, we get to the point of the morality of copyright and intellectual
>> property in general: which are the possible ethical uses of other people's
>> immaterial creations? The most extended line of thought (and it is the one
>> in which the copyright laws -and hence the software licenses- are based)
>> is

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Bye

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

I answer this thread only now as I haven't had much time to read sage-devel
these past days.

First, I must say that I feel very offended my Nathann public implication
that by being part of ODK I "build my career on other people's work".
Nathann, I think you have absolutely no idea what my career is built on,
what my work is and what I have done and still do for Sage (not everything
is trac tickets).

Second, if you suffer that much doing Sage, then well, just stop doing it.
The great thing about working in research (with a permanent position) and
open-source is that no one if forcing you to do anything.

Now, many people have said that they will miss your contributions and you
take that as a proof that you are being exploited. Well see, I value your
work as a developer but I think the way you interact with people is toxic
for the community. So if you cannot contribute without being toxic, I would
rather have you not contributing (and it won't affect my career!!). This is
only my opinion and I don't ask the community to back me up. I would just
want to point out that even though Nathann sometimes express valuables
opinions, the way he express them has lead many other valuable contributors
to stop talking on the mailing list. And because you could also get
attacked for contributing to a ticket, I'm pretty sure (even though I have
no evidence) that we have lost valuable contributions to Sage because the
person willing to do the contribution wouldn't bother arguing with Nathann:
I would never dream of touching the graph package a bit even if it lacked a
key feature I needed.

So well, Nathann, as much as I appreciate you as a person, I don't believe
you're in the right place now to contribute to an open-source community.

Saying this, I wish you the best in whatever you do and I hope we can find
ways as a community to avoid toxic behaviors and a better way to deal with
such things in a future, which wouldn't end by us loosing many contributors
(you + the ones you offended too much).

Best

Viviane


2016-02-26 14:58 GMT+01:00 mmarco :

> Wow, this whole discussion, and the subsequent thread opened by William
> have really blown my mind a little bit.
>
> I disagree with most of the objections raised by Nathann. I have to say
> that the impression I got from them at the beginning have changed as the
> discussion has evolved and  his points have been clarified. I also dislike
> his (sometimes aggresive, sometimes disrispectful) style when writing in
> this group.
>
> But I really respect the fact that he takes a moral position about what he
> considers to be an ethical problem. And I am really happy that he has
> raised these questions, and that we have had this discusion. As Rogaway [1]
> recently stated, it is important that we, scientists, take into
> consideration the moral implications of our work; so I am literally
> delighted to see a discussion about the morality of what we do in
> sage-devel.
>
> At the beginning, I thought that the main problem that Nathan was pointing
> to had to do with the money. The fact that somebody (he particularizes in
> William, but also makes some comments about the OpenDreamKit grant) makes
> money using the Sage code was -or I thought it was- thecore moral problem.
> I don't agree with that view, for a couple of reasons:
>
> 1) All Sage code is GPL'ed, which means not only that everybody has the
> legal right to use it as apart as a business model (provided the conditions
> of the GPL are respected); but also that the people that wrote that code
> have given an explicit permission to do so. The fact that the use of Sage
> code in SMC is legal is not the consequence of some loophole in the law. It
> is the consequence of the explicit permission of the code writers to
> everybody that wants to use the code with basically the only condition of
> not relicensing it. That clearly includes the kind of use that SMC does, so
> I definitely see no moral problem there. William can use my code in SMC
> because I explicitely gave him (and everybody else) permission to use it in
> that way (and many other possible ways too). Same applyes for the rest of
> the developpers.
>
> 2) If we to to a lower level in the moral discussion, and leaving law
> aside, we get to the point of the morality of copyright and intellectual
> property in general: which are the possible ethical uses of other people's
> immaterial creations? The most extended line of thought (and it is the one
> in which the copyright laws -and hence the software licenses- are based) is
> that such a use is ethical as long as it is done with the permission of the
> author. The author has some kind of natural right to decide who and how can
> use his/her creations. I disagree with this view (and I know i am probably
> alone in this). The idea that somebody in the other side of the world
> cannot make use of a idea just because I had that idea before, and wrote it
> down sounds ridiculous to me. The 

[sage-combinat-devel] SageDays78 Announcement

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

I'm happy to announce SageDays78 to happen in Vancouver, June 29 to July
1st 2016:

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78

These SageDays are organized as a satellite event of the combinatorics
conference FPSAC. The main topic will then be combinatorics. Please follow
the link for more information and registration.

Best

Viviane

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[sage-devel] SageDays78 Announcement

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

I'm happy to announce SageDays78 to happen in Vancouver, June 29 to July
1st 2016:

https://wiki.sagemath.org/days78

These SageDays are organized as a satellite event of the combinatorics
conference FPSAC. The main topic will then be combinatorics. Please follow
the link for more information and registration.

Best

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Uganda teaching feedback

[Viviane Pons]

Hi,

To answer Thierry: I do remember your feedbacks from Burkina from a few
years ago. I was actually planning to bring live USB keys, the only reason
I didn't is because I didn't have the time to setup all those keys before
leaving. I'm still curious on how you do this: do you buy a bunch of keys
before and then give them to the students? Do you you require them to bring
their own USB key?

Also, have you ever tried this on Windows 8? Because I know from past
experience that the boot is very different and Windows8 is very reluctant
on booting on anything else than itself.

As to install Linux on their machine, it would have taken too much of my
time and energy. Our goal was to sort out most technical issues on the
first day (which we did), and then, leave the rest of the week for math and
experimentation. As I said, it wasn't Sage days per say but really a school
with lectures and all.

To answer Dominique: when you go teaching in far away places -- It was
actually my first time doing such a thing. And I have very little
experience on setting up a sage cloud, so I didn't want to use this week to
experiment on this... Also, it was complicated for me to bring any
material, I'm quite on a long trip here involving different conferences,
continents and also holidays: my bags are quite full already. The only
thing I bring with me is my very light (but powerful) laptop. And last but
not least: with this solution, they have a working Sage during the week but
nothing to bring back home (and even nothing for homework in the evening).
The VM, despite its limitation, is still a program that they can keep
using. And I know they will.

Anyway, I have no doubt that for now Thierry's solutions are probably the
best. Also, the VM were not too bad and, in our case, it mostly did the
work. But still, it would be nice to work toward a better Windows interface
that doesn't require to install Linux at all (on USB key, partition or
whatever). Especially when ones wants to be a teacher for the week and not
a sys adm...

Best

Viviane

2015-07-18 9:02 GMT+03:00 Dominique Laurain dominique.laurai...@orange.fr:

 Interesting feedbacks for SAGE,maths,teaching,using VM... but I have  a
 question :

 when you go teaching in far away places, why you don't go with a small
 equipement for a local area network (switch, Ethernet wires) ?

 because after installing the network, you can use your computer (for
 example Ubuntu OS) with a sage cloud, and all students only need an
 internet browser

 no need Internet, no need VM, ...

 If no need for sharing files, you have USB live SAGE too

 PS: at my job, I was told that VM working better on same native OS,


 On Friday, 17 July 2015 20:00:49 UTC+2, Viviane Pons wrote:

 Dear all,

 this last week, I was giving a class in a summer school in Uganda, along
 with Jennifer Balakrishnan, on experimental mathematics (mine was
 combinatorics and Jennifer's was number theory). Both classes were based on
 Sage. Let me give you a feedback on using Sage here.

 Conditions;

 - around 30 students
 - limited Internet: the university network was much too slow for us to
 work with, we were given a special network bought for the school but the
 data was limited (we had to buy extra data a few times during the week)
 - every student had his / her own laptop. Only PCs, most of them Windows,
 2 or 3 linux (Ubuntu)
 - most students had very limited computer skills

 Because of the Internet limitation, SMC was no good solution for everyone
 to use. We still used it to do some demos, share code, and also as a backup
 options for the students who couldn't get Sage running.

 Sage installation:

 Most of the students didn't have Sage installed, so the first afternoon
 was devoted to install Sage everywhere. It mostly worked but we sometimes
 had issues:
 * hard drive limitations: some hard drive were completely full and VM +
 Sage was too big to get installed (also their HD was often partitioned in
 weird ways and the program partition was full)
 * for some reason, the Sage VM takes forever to load on Windows 8 (which
 makes it seem broken)

 Using Sage on the VM:

 Never had so much Sage on Windows experience before, this was a good test
 and now here's everything that was wrong and annoying:

 * Once a Sage virtual machine was in saved mode, it would usually crash
 on re-openning and we had to discard the saved mode (I guess because their
 computers were running out of memory)

 * Sharing files between the VM and Windows was NOT straightforward at
 all, the Sage explanation were not working (I think you need to change the
 usergroup in Ubuntu or something like this), at the end I just dropped the
 idea as I could not do it on all 30 machines at once

 * And I didn't manage to make them download any notebooks either, because
 the notebook wouldn't take https addresses, so actually I had no way to
 share notebooks with them!! (except on SMC)

 * pdflatex wasn't installed by default which for me was a real

[sage-devel] Uganda teaching feedback

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

this last week, I was giving a class in a summer school in Uganda, along
with Jennifer Balakrishnan, on experimental mathematics (mine was
combinatorics and Jennifer's was number theory). Both classes were based on
Sage. Let me give you a feedback on using Sage here.

Conditions;

- around 30 students
- limited Internet: the university network was much too slow for us to work
with, we were given a special network bought for the school but the data
was limited (we had to buy extra data a few times during the week)
- every student had his / her own laptop. Only PCs, most of them Windows, 2
or 3 linux (Ubuntu)
- most students had very limited computer skills

Because of the Internet limitation, SMC was no good solution for everyone
to use. We still used it to do some demos, share code, and also as a backup
options for the students who couldn't get Sage running.

Sage installation:

Most of the students didn't have Sage installed, so the first afternoon was
devoted to install Sage everywhere. It mostly worked but we sometimes had
issues:
* hard drive limitations: some hard drive were completely full and VM +
Sage was too big to get installed (also their HD was often partitioned in
weird ways and the program partition was full)
* for some reason, the Sage VM takes forever to load on Windows 8 (which
makes it seem broken)

Using Sage on the VM:

Never had so much Sage on Windows experience before, this was a good test
and now here's everything that was wrong and annoying:

* Once a Sage virtual machine was in saved mode, it would usually crash
on re-openning and we had to discard the saved mode (I guess because their
computers were running out of memory)

* Sharing files between the VM and Windows was NOT straightforward at all,
the Sage explanation were not working (I think you need to change the
usergroup in Ubuntu or something like this), at the end I just dropped the
idea as I could not do it on all 30 machines at once

* And I didn't manage to make them download any notebooks either, because
the notebook wouldn't take https addresses, so actually I had no way to
share notebooks with them!! (except on SMC)

* pdflatex wasn't installed by default which for me was a real problem as I
use it a lot to print combinatorial objects (thank you Jean-Baptiste for
the ascii art on binary trees, it saved me a bit!). And because of internet
limitations and the lack of Ubuntu knowledge from my students, it was not
really possible to install it on all their machines (I mean the VM)

* I couldn't get the VM to show multiple windows and not even multiple
tabs. This was so annoying... Sometimes a student would click on a link on
a notebook and there was no way of going back to where it was before... Or
to open Internet on the VM to download the notebooks or something...

To finish, one very good thing that we need to keep: the Help link on the
notebook was great, the students were navigating on the different tutorials
and this worked very well.

Anyway, this list is here to remind us what we could do better. I don't
mean to push anybody but now that we'll have full time developers, I
figured this real life experience was very useful for us non-Windows-users
to have (at the end, what's the point of having open source softwares if
the people who really need it can't use it properly?)

Also I want to say that despite all of this, the school went really well.
The students were really happy to learn about Sage, they were the most
enthusiastic and motivated students I ever had. Both Jennifer and I were
able to do great mathematics and we had a wonderful time!

If ever you're interested, my class material on combinatorics is here:

https://www.lri.fr/~pons/en/eaump.php

and the whole summer school material (including the previous week) is there:

http://people.bath.ac.uk/masgks/EAUMP/

Best,

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: OpenDreamKit question

[Viviane Pons]

To answer more precisely: the engineers who will be recruited will be
engineers and not mathematician, so they will work mostly on
non-mathematical improvement. For the mathematical content, we will still
rely on the good will of researchers (even though, some of our time is also
given to OpenDreamKit). This said, there will be many sage days and
development days organized through the OpenDreamKit project and it also
seems to me that symbolics would indeed be an interesting subject.

2015-06-30 1:48 GMT+02:00 Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com:



 On Sunday, 28 June 2015 09:43:51 UTC+1, Ralf Stephan wrote:

 Hello,
 I understand the jobs are funded to improve usability, mainly.
 I have categorized the last 110 questions on ask.sagemath and
 these are the components affected, sorted:

 symbolics  22
 algebra14
 build/install  12
 plotting/graphics  11
 linear algebra 10
 packages: standard  5
 cloud   5
 ...

 So, will there be some work on symbolics?


 shhh, this  funding is not meant for improving core Sage. :-)
 Read the grant proposal if you don't believe me.
 Having said that, people might want to work overtime for free, sometimes
 ;-)


 Regards,

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Generating posets, lattices etc. up to isomorphism

[Viviane Pons]

Hi Jori,

when I want to iterate through posets, I do this:

sage: P3 = Posets(3); P3
Posets containing 3 vertices
sage: list(P3)
[Finite poset containing 3 elements,
 Finite poset containing 3 elements,
 Finite poset containing 3 elements,
 Finite poset containing 3 elements,
 Finite poset containing 3 elements]

The ``Posets`` function is in sage.combinat.posets.poset_example and when
given a number, it returns an instance of ``FinitePosets_n`` in
sage.combinat.posets.posets. I think for now, we only have the iteration up
to isomorphism.

From a user point of view, it would seem natural to have something like

sage: Posets(3,  ... some options ...)
Posets containing 3 vertices with ... some options ...

which could indeed return a new class ``FinitePosets_n_with_properties`` in
the model of ``FinitePosets_n`` or even just allow those properties on
``FinitePosets_n`` (not sure which option is best).

Best,

Viviane

2015-06-14 9:40 GMT-05:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 Would this be good interface:

 Posets_iterator(n, properties=None, width=None, height=None)


 Do you have a specific reason for creating a class Posets_iterator? Or
 would a simple function do the job?

 Whatever you chose, it should probably be made available as an element of
 posets.tab. For graphs, you can do list(graphs(6)), but you may want to
 not copy this kind of behaviour. It's up to you. You could also have
 posets.posets_iterator() or posets.posets_all() or posets.posets(),
 whichever you prefer (or others I did not think of).

 Then, you have the problem of the Posets object, exported in the global
 namespace. Right now, this thing is the category of Posets. So if you
 want something like the following to work, you will have to mess with this
 category (or replace it by another object)

 sage: for p in Posets(max_width=3,max_height=4,num_points=90):
 : do_something

 Of course, its __iter__ method would be your iterator.

 Nathann

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[sage-devel] Inheriting from GradedAlgebras

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to inherit from GradedAlgebras, but for some reason I hit a
maximum recursion depth exception.

More precisely, this does not work:

sage: class T(GradedAlgebras):
pass
:
sage: T(QQ)

whereas, this does:

sage: GradedAlgebras(QQ)
Category of graded algebras over Rational Field
sage: class T(GradedAlgebras):
pass
:
sage: T(QQ)
Category of graded algebras over Rational Field

I'd like to understand why and I would like to understand what to do to
make it work without creating a useless instance of GradedAlgebras first.

Best

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Inheriting from GradedAlgebras

[Viviane Pons]

Yes, but my problem is that I am inheriting in a file and that is not
working at the moment. I did in the command line to show the error, but
actually I cannot make it work on a simple file:

I have a file containing only this:

from sage.categories.graded_algebras import GradedAlgebras

class Facade_polynomial_ring(GradedAlgebras):
pass

And when I import Facade_polynomial_ring on the command line and try to
construct it, it doesn't work. Same if I try to construct
Facade_polynomial_ring in another file (which was I was trying to do).

Best

Viviane

2015-06-11 13:06 GMT-05:00 Travis Scrimshaw tsc...@ucdavis.edu:

 Hey Viviane,
I suspect what is going on is by constructing an instance of
 GradedAlgebras, various magic of the category framework is being
 initialized (and is cached on the class), and so when it's used after that,
 it then doesn't have to find a particular path for the printing magic and
 thus it works...

 Although I think inheriting from a category like (and on the command line
 than in a static file) that is an abuse of the category framework, or at
 least wasn't designed so much for that.

 Best,
 Travis



 On Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 8:52:19 AM UTC-7, Viviane Pons wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I'm trying to inherit from GradedAlgebras, but for some reason I hit a
 maximum recursion depth exception.

 More precisely, this does not work:

 sage: class T(GradedAlgebras):
 pass
 :
 sage: T(QQ)

 whereas, this does:

 sage: GradedAlgebras(QQ)
 Category of graded algebras over Rational Field
 sage: class T(GradedAlgebras):
 pass
 :
 sage: T(QQ)
 Category of graded algebras over Rational Field

 I'd like to understand why and I would like to understand what to do to
 make it work without creating a useless instance of GradedAlgebras first.

 Best

 Viviane


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Re: [sage-devel] Question about Free algebra

[Viviane Pons]

The thing is: we actually need this specific implementation which is much
quicker for what we're doing. So I'm going to look closer at the object and
probably open a ticket to allow for such basic operation.

Best

Viviane

2015-06-09 2:24 GMT-05:00 Nicolas Borie nicolas.bo...@univ-mlv.fr:

 Le 09/06/2015 06:50, Viviane Pons a écrit :

 Hi everyone,

 I'm doing this:

 sage: FreeA.a,b,c,d,e,f = FreeAlgebra(QQ,implementation=letterplace)
 sage: P = a*b*a*c*c*b + a*b*a*d*d*b + a*c*a*d*d*c + b*c*b*d*d*c
 sage: X = P.lm()
 sage: X
 a*b*a*c*c*b

 And now I would like a way to cut my element X into two factors of a
 given size. Something like

 sage: u,v = X[:2],X[2:]

 with then u=a*b and v = a*c*c*d

 except this doesn't work (no __getitem__ on X). I have looked a bit, but
 I cannot find how to do this even though it seems quite a natural
 operation. I must say, I don't even understand the datastructure of X,
 list(X) doesn't give me something I can easily read or transform into a
 word or anything...

 If someone knows about this, I would appreciate the help.

 Hello,

 This feature seems to be strongly wrapped... You can access the data
 structure by iterating on element :


 **
 sage: FreeA.a,b,c,d,e,f = FreeAlgebra(QQ,implementation=letterplace)
 sage: P = a*b*a*c*c*b + a*b*a*d*d*b + a*c*a*d*d*c + b*c*b*d*d*c
 sage: for basis_elt, coef in P:
 : print list(basis_elt), coef
 :
 [1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0] 1
 [1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0] 1
 [0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0] 1
 [1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0] 1

 **

 Depending what is your need, perhaps one of the following will be easier
 to manipulate :

 **
 sage: W = Words(['abcdef'])
 sage: A = W.algebra(QQ)
 sage: A
 Free module generated by Words over {'abcdef'} over Rational Field
 sage: A = FreeMonoid(6, 'a,b,c,d,e,f').algebra(QQ)
 sage: A
 Free module generated by Free monoid on 6 generators (a, b, c, d, e, f)
 over Rational Field

 **

 Note that the first one using Words produce a strange bug on my machine
 (old sage 6.4.beta2)

 **
 sage: W = Words(['abcdef'])
 sage: W.algebra(QQ)
 ---
 AttributeErrorTraceback (most recent call last)
 ipython-input-30-c6db62886943 in module()
  1 W.algebra(QQ)

 /home/nborie/sage-6.3/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/structure/parent.so
 in sage.structure.parent.Parent.__getattr__
 (build/cythonized/sage/structure/parent.c:7213)()

 AttributeError: 'Words_over_OrderedAlphabet' object has no attribute
 'algebra'
 sage: W.al
 W.algebra   W.alphabet
 sage: W.algebra(QQ)
 Free module generated by Words over {'abcdef'} over Rational Field

 **

 The method algebra works only after I asked for a tab completion on W...
 Never see that before

 Following the feature you choose, you will perhaps have to add a product
 method (product_on_basis or whatever, most of the time, the categories does
 it already for you...)

 Cheers,
 Nicolas.

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Re: [sage-devel] Question about Free algebra

[Viviane Pons]

Yes, I actually figured that out after some time.

We've opened a ticket here : http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18653 and I'm
on it: doing basically what you're saying.

Best

Viviane

2015-06-09 12:32 GMT-05:00 John H Palmieri jhpalmier...@gmail.com:

 sage: list(X)
 [((1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0),
   1)]

 It looks like the tuple is a concatenation of 6 (one for each factor of X)
 tuples of length 6 (one for each generator): (1,0,0,0,0,0), (0,1,0,0,0,0),
 etc., representing a, b, a, c, c, b. So you could take that tuple, break it
 into smaller tuples of length 6 to get each factor.

 Actually, after looking at further examples, the length of the tuple is
 unpredictable: if you first evaluate a**9, then any for element defined
 after that, the tuple will have length 9*6. Strange. Anyway, you should be
 able to break the tuple into length 6 chunks to get each factor, treating
 (0,0,0,0,0,0) as 1.

   John

 On Tuesday, June 9, 2015 at 9:23:59 AM UTC-7, Viviane Pons wrote:

 The thing is: we actually need this specific implementation which is much
 quicker for what we're doing. So I'm going to look closer at the object and
 probably open a ticket to allow for such basic operation.

 Best

 Viviane

 2015-06-09 2:24 GMT-05:00 Nicolas Borie nicola...@univ-mlv.fr:

 Le 09/06/2015 06:50, Viviane Pons a écrit :

 Hi everyone,

 I'm doing this:

 sage: FreeA.a,b,c,d,e,f = FreeAlgebra(QQ,implementation=letterplace)
 sage: P = a*b*a*c*c*b + a*b*a*d*d*b + a*c*a*d*d*c + b*c*b*d*d*c
 sage: X = P.lm()
 sage: X
 a*b*a*c*c*b

 And now I would like a way to cut my element X into two factors of a
 given size. Something like

 sage: u,v = X[:2],X[2:]

 with then u=a*b and v = a*c*c*d

 except this doesn't work (no __getitem__ on X). I have looked a bit,
 but I cannot find how to do this even though it seems quite a natural
 operation. I must say, I don't even understand the datastructure of X,
 list(X) doesn't give me something I can easily read or transform into a
 word or anything...

 If someone knows about this, I would appreciate the help.

 Hello,

 This feature seems to be strongly wrapped... You can access the data
 structure by iterating on element :


 **
 sage: FreeA.a,b,c,d,e,f = FreeAlgebra(QQ,implementation=letterplace)
 sage: P = a*b*a*c*c*b + a*b*a*d*d*b + a*c*a*d*d*c + b*c*b*d*d*c
 sage: for basis_elt, coef in P:
 : print list(basis_elt), coef
 :
 [1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0] 1
 [1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0] 1
 [0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0] 1
 [1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0,
 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0] 1

 **

 Depending what is your need, perhaps one of the following will be easier
 to manipulate :

 **
 sage: W = Words(['abcdef'])
 sage: A = W.algebra(QQ)
 sage: A
 Free module generated by Words over {'abcdef'} over Rational Field
 sage: A = FreeMonoid(6, 'a,b,c,d,e,f').algebra(QQ)
 sage: A
 Free module generated by Free monoid on 6 generators (a, b, c, d, e, f)
 over Rational Field

 **

 Note that the first one using Words produce a strange bug on my machine
 (old sage 6.4.beta2)

 **
 sage: W = Words(['abcdef'])
 sage: W.algebra(QQ)

 ---
 AttributeErrorTraceback (most recent call
 last)
 ipython-input-30-c6db62886943 in module()
  1 W.algebra(QQ)

 /home/nborie/sage-6.3/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/structure/parent.so
 in sage.structure.parent.Parent.__getattr__
 (build/cythonized/sage/structure/parent.c:7213)()

 AttributeError: 'Words_over_OrderedAlphabet' object has no attribute
 'algebra'
 sage: W.al
 W.algebra   W.alphabet
 sage: W.algebra(QQ)
 Free module generated by Words over {'abcdef'} over Rational Field

 **

 The method algebra works only after I asked for a tab completion on W...
 Never see that before

 Following the feature you choose, you will perhaps have to add a product
 method (product_on_basis or whatever, most of the time, the categories does
 it already for you...)

 Cheers,
 Nicolas.


 --
 You received this message

[sage-devel] Question about Free algebra

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I'm doing this:

sage: FreeA.a,b,c,d,e,f = FreeAlgebra(QQ,implementation=letterplace)
sage: P = a*b*a*c*c*b + a*b*a*d*d*b + a*c*a*d*d*c + b*c*b*d*d*c
sage: X = P.lm()
sage: X
a*b*a*c*c*b

And now I would like a way to cut my element X into two factors of a
given size. Something like

sage: u,v = X[:2],X[2:]

with then u=a*b and v = a*c*c*d

except this doesn't work (no __getitem__ on X). I have looked a bit, but I
cannot find how to do this even though it seems quite a natural operation.
I must say, I don't even understand the datastructure of X, list(X) doesn't
give me something I can easily read or transform into a word or anything...

If someone knows about this, I would appreciate the help.

Thank you

Best

Viviane

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Re: remove combinat/mupad from sagemath website

[Viviane Pons]

Hi Nathann,

Isn't it possible to just remove the link to the mupad page from the menu
without removing the page? Then the page would only be accessible from the
combinat page, which makes sense. Honestly, I cannot see the cost of
hosting a html page on a related former project...

Best

Viviane

2015-06-07 23:31 GMT-05:00 Anne Schilling anne1.schill...@gmail.com:


 On Sunday, June 7, 2015 at 4:21:39 PM UTC-5, Nicolas M. Thiery wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 07, 2015 at 11:07:44PM +0200, Nathann Cohen wrote:
   - The MuPAD-Combinat citation list is unlikely to evolve much more. I
 agree that there is no compelling reason to have a link
 sagemath.org
 - Library - Citations MuPAD; so if you want to remove that link,
 that's fine with me. On the other hand, there probably isn't much
 cost nor confusion involved in keeping the page:
  
   http://www.sagemath.org/library-publications-mupad.html
  
 just to save the time on relocating it elsewhere. Also I would find
 natural to have a link from the Sage-Combinat list to that list,
 with a word of explanation.
 
  So you agree with my proposal.

 With the amendments I mention above, I am ok with it.

 Other opinions anyone?


 The sage-combinat publication list is used as one of the deliverables for
 each annual report for the NSF combinatorics grant. So it needs to stay as
 long as the grant is active (which it currently is).

 Best,

 Anne


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Documentation: Adding function from A to list of functions in B

[Viviane Pons]

2015-06-08 9:51 GMT-05:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 To me it is not a problem of doc but a problem of code. The issue is that
 we have 99% of the poset functions in the poset/ folder, and a couple of
 them in the category/ folder. If we move everything to posets, there's no
 problem. I don't see any advantage in having poset code in a file that is
 meant to implement the category of posets.


I disagree with that. There's some advantage: if your code only depends on
general mathematical properties of posets and not on the specific
implementation of the poset object, then it should be in the category.

The reason is: sometimes you define a parent (like a set of objects) which
happens to have the mathematical property of a poset. Then it doesn't
inherit from the actual poset object but does belong to the category of
posets and you want to have access to the category methods.

As to answer the original question, I would say the main goal of the
documentation is to document primarily for users. So: what should I write
so that the user understands how to use it, and where should I put it so
that the user can see it. But or course, it happens sometimes that you have
to add stuff specifically for the developers, especially to explain the
code architecture. This is what I do when I comment some inner functions or
parameters, or private (the ones starting with _ or __).

I hope this comment helped.

Best,

Viviane




 Nathann


 On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 4:27:29 PM UTC+2, Jori Mäntysalo wrote:

 There is some discussion at http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18534 .
 Maybe
 this could be a topic in this sage-devel list also.

 For now there is no list of what can I do with these posets -functions.
 That's because we have, for example, is_connected() on
 .../combinat/posets/posets.py and is_selfdual() on categories. And
 basically this is a question of viewpoint for documentation. Should we
 see
 it as documenting code, or as documenting functions for the user?

 --
 Jori Mäntysalo

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Documentation: Adding function from A to list of functions in B

[Viviane Pons]

2015-06-08 10:14 GMT-05:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 Yo,

  I disagree with that. There's some advantage: if your code only depends
 on
  general mathematical properties of posets and not on the specific
  implementation of the poset object, then it should be in the category.

 Absolutely no code in poset.py depends on the actual implementation.
 This is handled in hasse_diagram.py and graph/.

 Things will be fun when we will have two folders in Sage's src/
 directory, i.e. category/ and data_structures/


Well, a finite poset constructs a hasse diagram, so then it relies on some
structure.





 Nathann

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[sage-devel] Re: [sage-support] Re: Make doc error

[Viviane Pons]

The problem was indeed the accent, we tried John's fix with # -*- coding:
utf-8 -*- and it worked!

Thank you for your help, it was kind of tricky.

Best

Viviane

2015-06-04 3:03 GMT-05:00 Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com:

 The docstring might have to be declared unicode (haven't actually looked
 at it):

 def foo():
 u
 unicode string
 


 On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 2:24:47 AM UTC+2, John H Palmieri wrote:

 Earlier in the docbuilding, I see this:

 [combinat ] building [inventory]: targets for 2 source files that are out
 of date
 [combinat ] updating environment: 0 added, 2 changed, 0 removed
 [combinat ] reading sources... [ 50%]
 sage/combinat/cluster_algebra_quiver/cluster_seed
 [combinat ] Encoding error:
 [combinat ] 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 414: ordinal
 not in range(128)
 [combinat ] The full traceback has been saved in
 /var/folders/cp/n8wtqs490tq5psknff1hv9qrgn/T/sphinx-err-jeDhGW.log, if
 you want to report the issue to the developers.

 which is caused by the accents on line 18 of cluster_seed.py. Does the
 problem go away if you remove those accents or add something like

 # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

 to the top of the file?

   John



 On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 4:24:37 PM UTC-7, Viviane Pons wrote:

 This I did already...

 2015-06-03 18:21 GMT-05:00 Volker Braun vbrau...@gmail.com:

 Try make doc-clean  make


 On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 1:06:03 AM UTC+2, Viviane Pons wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I get this doc build error on a branch (
 http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18594) and I have no idea why. I just
 know the error comes from the branch (I can build the doc fine on develop)
 but I don't know which commit caused it. I'm going to look into it but if
 someone has the slightest idea of what is causing it, it would help!

 The error:

 [reference] WARNING: Unable to fetch
 /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/output/doctrees/en/reference/combinat/environment.pickle
 Error building the documentation.

 Note: incremental documentation builds sometimes cause spurious
 error messages. To be certain that these are real errors, run
 make doc-clean first and try again.
 Traceback (most recent call last):
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 1626, in module
 getattr(get_builder(name), type)()
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 292, in _wrapper
 getattr(get_builder(document), 'inventory')(*args, **kwds)
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 516, in _wrapper
 getattr(DocBuilder(self.name, lang), format)(*args, **kwds)
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 110, in f
 eval(compile(open(sys.argv[0]).read(), sys.argv[0], 'exec'))
   File
 /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/custom-sphinx-build.py,
 line 219, in module
 raise OSError(ERROR_MESSAGE)
 OSError: [reference] WARNING: Unable to fetch
 /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/output/doctrees/en/reference/combinat/environment.pickle


 Best

 Viviane

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[sage-devel] Make doc error

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I get this doc build error on a branch (
http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18594) and I have no idea why. I just know
the error comes from the branch (I can build the doc fine on develop) but I
don't know which commit caused it. I'm going to look into it but if someone
has the slightest idea of what is causing it, it would help!

The error:

[reference] WARNING: Unable to fetch
/media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/output/doctrees/en/reference/combinat/environment.pickle
Error building the documentation.

Note: incremental documentation builds sometimes cause spurious
error messages. To be certain that these are real errors, run
make doc-clean first and try again.
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py, line
1626, in module
getattr(get_builder(name), type)()
  File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py, line
292, in _wrapper
getattr(get_builder(document), 'inventory')(*args, **kwds)
  File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py, line
516, in _wrapper
getattr(DocBuilder(self.name, lang), format)(*args, **kwds)
  File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py, line
110, in f
eval(compile(open(sys.argv[0]).read(), sys.argv[0], 'exec'))
  File
/media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/custom-sphinx-build.py,
line 219, in module
raise OSError(ERROR_MESSAGE)
OSError: [reference] WARNING: Unable to fetch
/media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/output/doctrees/en/reference/combinat/environment.pickle


Best

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Re: [sage-support] Re: Make doc error

[Viviane Pons]

This I did already...

2015-06-03 18:21 GMT-05:00 Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com:

 Try make doc-clean  make


 On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 1:06:03 AM UTC+2, Viviane Pons wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I get this doc build error on a branch (
 http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18594) and I have no idea why. I just
 know the error comes from the branch (I can build the doc fine on develop)
 but I don't know which commit caused it. I'm going to look into it but if
 someone has the slightest idea of what is causing it, it would help!

 The error:

 [reference] WARNING: Unable to fetch
 /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/output/doctrees/en/reference/combinat/environment.pickle
 Error building the documentation.

 Note: incremental documentation builds sometimes cause spurious
 error messages. To be certain that these are real errors, run
 make doc-clean first and try again.
 Traceback (most recent call last):
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 1626, in module
 getattr(get_builder(name), type)()
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 292, in _wrapper
 getattr(get_builder(document), 'inventory')(*args, **kwds)
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 516, in _wrapper
 getattr(DocBuilder(self.name, lang), format)(*args, **kwds)
   File /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/builder.py,
 line 110, in f
 eval(compile(open(sys.argv[0]).read(), sys.argv[0], 'exec'))
   File
 /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/common/custom-sphinx-build.py,
 line 219, in module
 raise OSError(ERROR_MESSAGE)
 OSError: [reference] WARNING: Unable to fetch
 /media/ubuntudata/Programming/sage/src/doc/output/doctrees/en/reference/combinat/environment.pickle


 Best

 Viviane

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[sage-devel] Talks at PyCon

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

we were a bunch of Sage people at PyCon this year. Here's a link to the
talk I gave about combinatorics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LZiZKgVjaU

Nicolas Thiery also gave a lightning (5 minutes) talk about our crazy class
hierarchy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LZiZKgVjaU (at 45:00)

Enjoy!

Best,

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Big bug with the gamma function

[Viviane Pons]

Just to let people know about:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18210

A plot of the gamma function which is crashing Sage...

I reported the bug on trac, but the person who actually found it is Buck
(in CC) who is working on Sage at PyCon.

Best

Viviane

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[sage-devel] PyCon spritns tomorrow

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

tomorrow, we're running some Sage Days which will also be during PyCon
sprints. It means we'll get lots of new users who will want to play around
and look at trac tickets etc.

Because we're at PyCon, we might get people interested in contributing who
are NOT mathematicians but who have quite some experience in software
development. If you have some good pointers to track tickets they could
look at or just part of the code they could read, please let us know.

(J-P Labbe already sent us some easy to review tickets, this is also good)

Best

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ipython-notebook: show picture in notebook (e.g. latex-tikz)

[Viviane Pons]

2015-04-03 4:05 GMT-04:00 Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com:

 On Friday, April 3, 2015 at 9:56:40 AM UTC+2, Daniel Krenn wrote:

 Actually, it is a short for
   view(latex(transducers.GrayCode()))


 I know. And who cares? The important point is to present a uniform user
 interface for generating graphical output. The _latex_ method of
  transducers.GrayCode() re-implements plotting, just in a less flexible way.


I'm not sure of what's your point here. Are you saying that the _latex_
method is somehow useless? Because I strongly disagree with that. I use
this method a lot for a bunch of objects, and to generate the latex code
that then goes into my articles. It is true that it is less flexible than
the plot method, so I guess it is just used in different contexts...



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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ipython-notebook: show picture in notebook (e.g. latex-tikz)

[Viviane Pons]

2015-04-07 12:13 GMT-04:00 Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com:

 No, I'm saying its nice functionality but attached at the wrong place. If
 you can't use .plot() to generate the graphics the how on earth is a new
 user supposed to discover that functionality? Its just a terrible UI.


You're right about that! I guess the solution with an optional parameter in
the plot function to use the latex instead of default plot would be good.
But does view and plot return the same kind of object? I don't think so...
That might be a problem!







 On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 4:30:58 PM UTC+2, Viviane Pons wrote:



 2015-04-03 4:05 GMT-04:00 Volker Braun vbrau...@gmail.com:

 On Friday, April 3, 2015 at 9:56:40 AM UTC+2, Daniel Krenn wrote:

 Actually, it is a short for
   view(latex(transducers.GrayCode()))


 I know. And who cares? The important point is to present a uniform user
 interface for generating graphical output. The _latex_ method of
  transducers.GrayCode() re-implements plotting, just in a less flexible way.


 I'm not sure of what's your point here. Are you saying that the _latex_
 method is somehow useless? Because I strongly disagree with that. I use
 this method a lot for a bunch of objects, and to generate the latex code
 that then goes into my articles. It is true that it is less flexible than
 the plot method, so I guess it is just used in different contexts...



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[sage-devel] Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Re: Order of Partitions()

[Viviane Pons]

2015-03-18 12:40 GMT+01:00 Mike Zabrocki mike.zabro...@gmail.com:

 That would make sense.  My preference is that (at least for values less
 than 15) the default is that the output is sorted and this can be
 controlled by the optional parameter.

 I think about how many times that I test symmetric function identities on
 partitions and realize that patterns that indicate a relation to dominance
 order will be a lot less clear if the order is not something natural.  I
 wouldn't want the interface to be too complicated, but the more I think
 about it the more I realize that my personal use of partitions is very
 dependent on this order.


I would tend to agree with you. The order wasn't documented but I'm pretty
sure many people writing some personal code using partitions still rely on
the order somehow. I feel a good choice would be to give the nice order
by default and some parameter to obtain the optimized one.




 On Wednesday, 18 March 2015 04:20:15 UTC-4, Samuel Lelievre wrote:

 Nathann Cohen wrote:

 Hello,

  I think that Partitions should be output in either lex (or possibly
 reverse
  lex) since this order is compatible with dominance order.

 I only want to bring to your attention that deciding in which order
 the partitions should be returned is not free in terms of
 computational time.

 The current implementation returns them in lex order, but returns
 *many* wrong answers too (see #17548).

 In order to fix that, Jeroen is re-implementing this feature through a
 routine that enumerates the integer points of a polytope (see #17920),
 probably without any control over the order in which they are
 returned.

 Thus, in order for Partition/Composition to return them in a specific
 order we must list them *all* before returning the first of them. This
 can really mean hours (or no results at all) instead of seconds on big
 instances.


 So would it make sense to have an optional parameter sorted=None,
 which one could set to 'lex' or 'revlex' to get them in a desired order.
 The documentation could warn about the issues you just raised.

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Re: Order of Partitions()

[Viviane Pons]

2015-03-18 12:40 GMT+01:00 Mike Zabrocki mike.zabro...@gmail.com:

 That would make sense.  My preference is that (at least for values less
 than 15) the default is that the output is sorted and this can be
 controlled by the optional parameter.

 I think about how many times that I test symmetric function identities on
 partitions and realize that patterns that indicate a relation to dominance
 order will be a lot less clear if the order is not something natural.  I
 wouldn't want the interface to be too complicated, but the more I think
 about it the more I realize that my personal use of partitions is very
 dependent on this order.


I would tend to agree with you. The order wasn't documented but I'm pretty
sure many people writing some personal code using partitions still rely on
the order somehow. I feel a good choice would be to give the nice order
by default and some parameter to obtain the optimized one.




 On Wednesday, 18 March 2015 04:20:15 UTC-4, Samuel Lelievre wrote:

 Nathann Cohen wrote:

 Hello,

  I think that Partitions should be output in either lex (or possibly
 reverse
  lex) since this order is compatible with dominance order.

 I only want to bring to your attention that deciding in which order
 the partitions should be returned is not free in terms of
 computational time.

 The current implementation returns them in lex order, but returns
 *many* wrong answers too (see #17548).

 In order to fix that, Jeroen is re-implementing this feature through a
 routine that enumerates the integer points of a polytope (see #17920),
 probably without any control over the order in which they are
 returned.

 Thus, in order for Partition/Composition to return them in a specific
 order we must list them *all* before returning the first of them. This
 can really mean hours (or no results at all) instead of seconds on big
 instances.


 So would it make sense to have an optional parameter sorted=None,
 which one could set to 'lex' or 'revlex' to get them in a desired order.
 The documentation could warn about the issues you just raised.

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[sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 67 at PyCon

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

here is a second call to invite you to participate to Sage Days and PyCon
this spring in Montreal:

PyCon: April 8 -12
Sage Days: April 13 - 16 (during PyCon sprints)

All informations here: http://wiki.sagemath.org/days67

Especially, if you intend to come to PyCon: register quicly! Last year,
they were sold out...

Whether you come only to Sage days or to both events, please send me an
email to let me know.

All the best!

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Sage Days 67 at PyCon

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

here is a second call to invite you to participate to Sage Days and PyCon
this spring in Montreal:

PyCon: April 8 -12
Sage Days: April 13 - 16 (during PyCon sprints)

All informations here: http://wiki.sagemath.org/days67

Especially, if you intend to come to PyCon: register quicly! Last year,
they were sold out...

Whether you come only to Sage days or to both events, please send me an
email to let me know.

All the best!

Viviane

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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Import error using recusive trees

[Viviane Pons]

Hi,

from what I remember, it was finished but depended on this one:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/10194

Which is also almost finished but still not...

These two tickets come from the old combinat queue (when Sage wasn't on git
yet) and were shared among combinat people without being merged, Nicolas
and Florent are the ones who should know the status...


 P.S. Viviane Pons, what is ot?


typo: I meant it

Best,

Viviane


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Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Import error using recusive trees

[Viviane Pons]

Hi,

I don't know about your import error. But I just wanted to say than
unordered trees were implemented a while ago but never finished...

Here's the ticket:

http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/11529

I'm not saying you should use those, maybe it's better to start from
scratch, but it's always good to know it exists!

By the way, ot's something that would be very cool to have.

Best,

Viviane

2015-02-10 12:50 GMT+01:00 Henrik Sperre Sundklakk 
henrik.sundkl...@gmail.com:

 I am implementing unordered rooted trees in Sage (to use them in
 B-series). When trying to iinherit from
 sage.combinat.abstract_tree.AbstractClonableTree I get an ImportError.

 I have successfully called OrderedTrees() from the notebook, so my Sage
 installation is sound. The problem occurs when I use Eclipse.

 I launch Eclipse from the Sage shell, and use the Python interpreter
 provided by Sage (/usr/lib/sagemath/local/bin/python2.7). I keep my .py
 files in a directory in my SAGE_PATH. I have successfully imported and
 inherited from classes in Sage (ClonableElement). This code runs, both in
 Eclipse and the nootebook.

 However, the following line, even when it is the only line in a file,
 elicit the following error (as does all attempts to import anything
 depending on abstrac_tree):

 import sage.combinat.abstract_tree

 Traceback (most recent call last):
   File
 /home/henrik/Documents/studier/masteroppgave/code/pybs/pybs/scratch2.py,
 line 5, in module
 import sage.combinat.abstract_tree# import AbstractClonableTree
   File
 /usr/lib/sagemath/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/combinat/abstract_tree.py,
 line 67, in module
 from sage.rings.integer import Integer
   File sage/rings/rational.pxd, line 10, in init sage.rings.integer
 (build/cythonized/sage/rings/integer.c:41630)
   File sage/rings/rational.pyx, line 56, in init sage.rings.rational
 (build/cythonized/sage/rings/rational.c:30843)
   File
 /usr/lib/sagemath/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/rational_field.py,
 line 55, in module
 import infinity
   File
 /usr/lib/sagemath/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/rings/infinity.py,
 line 213, in module
 from sage.rings.integer_ring import ZZ
   File sage/rings/integer_ring.pyx, line 67, in init
 sage.rings.integer_ring (build/cythonized/sage/rings/integer_ring.c:11566)
   File
 /usr/lib/sagemath/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/structure/factorization.py,
 line 188, in module
 from sage.misc.all import prod
   File
 /usr/lib/sagemath/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/misc/all.py,
 line 89, in module
 from functional import (additive_order,
   File
 /usr/lib/sagemath/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/sage/misc/functional.py,
 line 36, in module
 from sage.rings.complex_double import CDF
   File sage/rings/real_double.pxd, line 8, in init
 sage.rings.complex_double
 (build/cythonized/sage/rings/complex_double.c:20095)
   File sage/rings/real_double.pyx, line 56, in init
 sage.rings.real_double (build/cythonized/sage/rings/real_double.c:22825)
 ImportError: cannot import name ZZ

 Since recursive trees work from the notebook, I guess the problem is me
 doing something wrong trying to import it, but I can't think of what it
 is...

 Regards,
 Henrik S. Sundklakk

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[sage-devel] PyCon Financial Aid application: last call

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

this is to remind you that you have until January 1st to apply for PyCon
2015 financial aid:

https://us.pycon.org/2015/

As a reminder: PyCon is the largest gathering of the python community. The
2015 session is held in Montreal on April 8-16, and there will be Sage-days
during the sprints with whoever is there!

http://wiki.sagemath.org/days67

See you all, I hope

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: How to avoid duplicate work when merging?

[Viviane Pons]

 P.S.: I do not understand why you say that rebasing branches would
 make it *harder* to keep branches conflict-free. Once the rebase is
 done you don't even have a *trace* that there was once a conflict. As
 if it had been solved from the start ! How can that make things more
 complicated later ?


The problem comes if you rebase a branch on which somebody else had based a
commit (so started a parallel branch that he meant to merge later). As an
example, you open a ticket and somebody else has a dependency on your
ticket and start his new ticket out of it (without you knowing). Then when
you rebase, this other person is based on a ghost branch that is
complicated to handle...

Cheers

Viviane



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[sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days 67 at PyCon -- Call for registration and financial aid application

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

As I have mentioned before, there will be some Sage Days during the next
PyCon in Montreal:

PyCon: April 8-16, 2015
Sage-Days 67: April 13-16, 2015 (during PyCon sprints)

You can find all needed informations here: http://wiki.sagemath.org/days67

Important deadline: financial aid applications accepted until 1st of January

PyCon is usually offering lots of financial assistance towards student, so
please tell your student to apply and attend both PyCon and Sage Days!

We're also welcoming more advanced users: please propose some talks and
projects to on work on. Remember that there will be some other open source
projects sprints going on at the same time (IPython, SciPy,...) so if you
have some common project with them, it's the right place!

PyCon is a great conference and the best opportunity for us to meet the
python community. And I don't need to convince you all of the great benefit
of sprints and Sage days.

Best,

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Sage Days 67 at PyCon -- Call for registration and financial aid application

[Viviane Pons]

Dear all,

As I have mentioned before, there will be some Sage Days during the next
PyCon in Montreal:

PyCon: April 8-16, 2015
Sage-Days 67: April 13-16, 2015 (during PyCon sprints)

You can find all needed informations here: http://wiki.sagemath.org/days67

Important deadline: financial aid applications accepted until 1st of January

PyCon is usually offering lots of financial assistance towards student, so
please tell your student to apply and attend both PyCon and Sage Days!

We're also welcoming more advanced users: please propose some talks and
projects to on work on. Remember that there will be some other open source
projects sprints going on at the same time (IPython, SciPy,...) so if you
have some common project with them, it's the right place!

PyCon is a great conference and the best opportunity for us to meet the
python community. And I don't need to convince you all of the great benefit
of sprints and Sage days.

Best,

Viviane

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Re: [sage-cloud] Re: [sage-devel] Re: SageMathCloud now open source

[Viviane Pons]

2014-12-11 22:46 GMT+01:00 William Stein wst...@gmail.com:

 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 1:28 PM, maldun dom...@gmx.net wrote:
  That's great to hear!
 
  Although I don't know If GPL3 is the best choice ...

 I actually didn't have an option regarding GPL or not.

  Are there already alternative plans to make funding from SMC, since
 closed
  Source is not an option anymore?
  (I think this topic is important, since resources are a major issue)

 I don't know yet, but I still hope  it will be possible to start a
 company around hosting of SMC, even with SMC being open source.It
 likely will provide less revenue, and be more difficult to get
 investment.  However, I'm optimistic that at least _something_ will be
 possible, which in the longterm will have the intended impact
 (supporting core Sage development).


I do believe so. And also, I'm pretty sure that SMC being open will gather
even more people to Sage (it was already doing it while it was close) and
this way bring more potential developers and a bigger interest of the math
community.

I find it a VERY good news! And I must say, it is at the exact right time
for us on our own European grant proposal. If we get the grant, I hope we
can get some developers to work on it!

Best,

Viviane



 William

 
  On Thursday, December 11, 2014 6:47:05 PM UTC+1, William wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  SageMathCloud is now completely open source.The complete source
  code is here, so if you've ever wondered how something in SMC works,
  you can now find out...
 
  https://github.com/sagemath/cloud
 
  There is also a new developer mailing list:
 
 https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/sage-cloud-devel
 
 
  Question: Why is SMC open source?
 
  Answer: Two of the four NSF grants that very substantially supported
  SMC development had explicit open source requirements.
 
 
   -- William
 
 
  --
  William Stein
  Professor of Mathematics
  University of Washington
  http://wstein.org
 
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 --
 William Stein
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 University of Washington
 http://wstein.org

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About Graph.to_partition and Poset.to_graph

[Viviane Pons]

My comment on this:

* Findstat does not need such methods to be in sage (anymore), as we
actually define our own maps outside of Sage (for the good of FindStat and
for the bad of Sage in my opinion) so at least, no one can be accused of
being partial

* If a method exists somewhere and has been there for some time, I don't
see why it should be removed: I don't see any negative impact of the method
being there. The idea of building some kind of global semantic map of
relations between combinatorial objects has not been completely dropped out
and I still think it would be a good thing to have. In this context, such a
method would make sense.

About the name, I have no specific opinion.

This being said. I have no interest in these methods in particular. I just
wanted to make it clear that Findstat was completely our of the debate.

Best,

Viviane


2014-12-03 12:23 GMT+01:00 Vincent Delecroix 20100.delecr...@gmail.com:

 Since you are working on it, I really like better

 Graph.connected_components_sizes()

 rather than

 Graph.connected_components_sizes_partition()

 Otherwise you should chage

 Graph.connected_components_number()

 to

 Graph.connected_components_number_integer()

 The output can be sorted to look like a partition but it is not clear
 why it should be a Partition instance. I guess that my preference
 would be

 def connected_components_sizes(self):
 return sorted((len(cc) for cc in self.connected_components()),
 reverse=True)

 Vincent

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: About Graph.to_partition and Poset.to_graph

[Viviane Pons]

 Vincent

 PS: Not speaking about Findstat, you know that I worked a bit to
 propose something for the database of combinatorial maps (see #16408).
 I receive exactly 0 answer since then... and it was 6 months ago.


I know, I still find it a very interesting project but months go quickly
and I have many projects. Also, I must say that my motivation to concretely
work on this kind of dropped when we decided to use something completely
different on FindStat (we define our own maps now and we have our own
version of what you proposed). I didn't take this decision myself, it was
taken and done shortly after you made your proposition. From the FindStat
point of view, it's quite good because it makes life much easier for us,
but I really think it's a loss for Sage.

Anyway, about the original question. My opinion is that these methods could
be properly renamed and useful. But it's only my opinion and I won't spend
time arguing about it, it's really not something crucial for me.

Best

Viviane




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Re: [sage-devel] Re: proposed amendment to code of conduct

[Viviane Pons]

As a yes voter, I would be totally in favor of changing the name to
guidelines. As Nathann pointed out, we're not Django or Fedora and even
though they can be source of inspiration, we don't have to do something
just because they do. Also, the linguistic debate about what code means
is a bit pointless: let's just use a word that most people agree on
whatever mother tongue they come from.

I'm also in favor of voting a new text that carries more people on. I think
we're in a bad situation now, with a vote that not everybody recognizes and
divides the community. I am in favor of some kind of code of conduct but
dividing the community is counter productive.

Best

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: proposed amendment to code of conduct

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-28 20:24 GMT+01:00 Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de:

 Hi Viviane,

 On 2014-11-28, Viviane Pons vivianep...@gmail.com wrote:
  As a yes voter, I would be totally in favor of changing the name to
  guidelines.

 So, technically, your yes vote should in fact be counted as no,
 because the vote was about a specific version of the text?


My 'yes' is still a 'yes'. I read and accepted the text as it was. But
still, in fine, I find guidelines better,
because:

* I was convinced by other people's point (yes, that can happen!)
* What I want most is having a text that most people agree on

I also found the vote was taking place too early. Actually, I was afraid
that the 'no' would win and that the matter would be buried and ignored and
that nothing would change. (Honestly, nobody could predict the result of
the vote, it was really a close call). So because I wanted a text and I,
personally, had no objections against the proposed text, I voted 'yes'. I
was afraid indeed that because people were divided, the vote would settle
nothing (and I was right, obviously!).

As for now, we're in a very delicate situation as some people recognize the
vote and some don't, and many no voters feel they've been imposed on.
What I personally read from the vote is that *some* kind of text has to
exists: if the actual code was just to be removed (well, I must say, I
don't really consider that it exists right now...) and no other text was to
be accepted, then we would be in uproar just as we are now, because the
'yes' voters would feel deceived.

But as it is now, I don't want to keep this text (but I do want something
instead). Not because I refute what is in it but because I find it useless
if it's not accepted by so many developers. Also, I'm sensible to your (and
other) arguments (about 'guidelines' instead of codes, about not giving
orders 'be be be' etc). At the end, I want everyone, 'yes' and 'no' voters
to feel good and welcome in the community we all share and like.

Also, to most virulent people on both sides: I think there is no point
arguing about the actual status of the code or the legitimacy of the vote.
It will lead us nowhere. What we should do, is work on a consensus as some
of us started. I also think, little 'so called' votes about amendments are
quite useless, we've seen what quick votes have done. Let us give us some
time (how much? I don't know, as much as needed I'd say) to find something
that we feel does not divide us so much. Then, we could put it to vote
because (because absolute consensus where everyone agree is difficult to
reach), but a vote of which result we would accept.

To finish, once again, we all want the same thing!

Cheers

Viviane




  I'm also in favor of voting a new text that carries more people on. I
 think
  we're in a bad situation now, with a vote that not everybody recognizes
 and
  divides the community. I am in favor of some kind of code of conduct
 but
  dividing the community is counter productive.

 +1. But this time please *after* an open discussion on the text.

 I do recognise that the majority of voters wants some kind of
 guidelines, but I do not recognise that the majority of voters wants
 this text, and also I do not recognise that the voting met democratic
 standards.

 A technical question: How can a discussion on text be organised? A wiki
 is of course one option for collaborative edition of a text, but I don't
 see how arguments can be exchanged by wiki.

 Best regards,
 Simon


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: proposed amendment to code of conduct

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-28 23:43 GMT+01:00 Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de:

 Hi Vincent,

 On 2014-11-28, Vincent Delecroix 20100.delecr...@gmail.com wrote:
  Please tell me who? As far as I read, nobody proposed to have nothing.

 I did propose to have nothing.

 I still think that setting good examples is vastly superiour to *any*
 kind of written rules. However, I acknowledge that a slight majority
 of people wants written rules. Now, the aim is to create something that
 is as unlikely to do damage as possible.


Thank you for acknowledging this fact. I do listen to your arguments too.
In both examples you give of bad use of a code of conduct, there is a group
of people who have some power and they use their co called code of conduct
as a general law to abuse of their power. In our situation at least, there
is no one with power, we're all equals. But still, I don't want anything
like the situations you describe and that is why I totally agree that
whatever code we have, it should never be a law.





 Cheers,
 Simon

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-27 18:08 GMT+01:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

   Also, Simon, in your way of doing things, in my experience if one does
 not respond to an inappropriate message, then others will and discussions
 go in all sorts of directions. So if a discussion was kind of shut down by
 a rude post, how should one proceed? I would like to try that experiment!

 It is not always so black and white, I believe. You can try to extract the
 technical information from the rude post, if there is any, and answer to
 that. But I don't think that you often have a peaceful discussion and, all
 of a sudden, 'a rude post'. Usually the tension grows progressively (with a
 dark music in the background) on both sides for a while before that
 happens. Well. Methinks.


I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a
rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in
it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you).

The point of the code of conduct is not to make us change our general
behaviour. I think, most of time, we're doing ok. Even in this post, it's
not that bad. Just it happens that, sometimes, someone crosses the line and
I find it good that we write down what being respectful means to us, that's
all.

I feel that it is not something so uncommon. As Volker said, many other
communities have some thing like this and they are still able to
communicate and exchange ideas and point of views. They didn't turn into
dictatorship...




 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-27 18:41 GMT+01:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 Yooo !

  I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a
 rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in
 it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you).

 Well, rudeness happen because of misunderstandings. Of course we can
 discuss code without being rude, but sometimes it is also different
 standards, that's all. Look at the 0-based Permutation thing: you have your
 standard, I have mine. I will never find that yours makes sense, you will
 never find that mine makes sense. But one of us will always have to use the
 other's standard. There is nothing fair in that, and it will not be fair
 whatever the choice. Plus there is no exchange possible, it's not like we
 can make deals over that.

 Dictators are cool for this kind of things :-P


Well, conversations such as the one we had on permutations are fine. We
both have a point of view and we just argued to defend it. I see no problem
in that! The problem comes where instead, this goes out of hand with
personal attacks, demeaning comments or things like that.


  The point of the code of conduct is not to make us change our general
 behaviour. I think, most of time, we're doing ok. Even in this post, it's
 not that bad. Just it happens that, sometimes, someone crosses the line and
 I find it good that we write down what being respectful means to us, that's
 all.

 Yeah, but it's like building guns. Eventually, somebody will point it at
 someone. And then it will not be about being friendly, it will be about
 the rules that are written. Personally, this is the only thing I want to
 avoid. Nobody here ever meant to claim that it was not right to be friendly
 and patient.


I understand your fear. That's why I'm really ready to put effort into
*not* making it a gun. None of us want a gun, what we want is a safety
nest, no shooting!! On the other hand, you guys have to acknowledge the
fact that some of us need this safety nest even if you don't see the
point... That's the very reason people proposed a code of conduct at the
first place.

 Cheers

Viviane


 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?

[Viviane Pons]

 Rather than being put forward as a fait accompli (or even a fiat
 accompli:) Volker's initial post asked everyone to (discuss and) vote on
 whether we should adopt the code. That is, from the onset people were asked
 for their opinion. If you reread the thread, when the discussion started
 becoming heated William tried to close it. When that failed, he asked
 everyone to vote on it. This looks quite democratic to me. This said, since
 the vote was so close, and seemingly so contentious, I'm not sure we should
 adopt it. Personally I would prefer to see it, or some variation of it,
 adopted as guidelines -- having to enforce a code is contrary to the
 underlying principle of being polite.


I would be in favour of this: having guidelines and not an enforced code.
The sage-abuse could still be there, as I see it, it could be a place to
say Hey, I didn't feel this conversation was aright and I was affected by
such or such behaviour, a way to ask support from the community, also to
point out when there is some really big abuse we think something should be
done (I hope this never happens). Not the same as sage-flame which is to
discuss subject that we know could be heated and we raise a warning flag
for other participants.



 The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were
 unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of
 posts. I had tried talking off-list with the person making these to try and
 explain to them why their comments were not helpful. Later I learned that
 several other people had, independently, talked to this person as well.
 (Incidentally, the poster is a valued developer, which makes them much
 harder to ignore than some one like rjf.) Speaking for myself, if one
 person tells me I'm being rude I'll probably take notice, but perhaps I'd
 shrug them off. If four people tell me I'm being rude then change my
 behaviour. Unfortunately, nothing changed.

 A number of people have stopped contributing to sage because of such
 interactions, and there is a danger that others will stop. I don't want
 that. As nothing else had worked I thought that it was worth proposing some
 guidelines in the hope that this might help. I'm still a little baffled as
 to why the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other  is causing
 such a commotion.

 Andrew

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?

[Viviane Pons]

 From Andrew:
  Hi Nathan,
 
  I participated in the initial drafting of the code. Our draft closely
  follows, and was stolen from, similar codes of conduct from other
 projects.

 The main question of Nathann, which is really fundamental is: why was
 it redacted by a small group of people and immediately proposed as a
 vote (and not as an open discussion)?. This is really what happend:
 the first message of the thread is the proposal of the code of honnor
 (by Volker) and the second is the proposal to vote about it (by
 William).


You're not being completely fair on this. There was a lot of discussions
going on on the first thread before the vote was proposed. Most of the
discussion was about having a code of conduct or not having one, but people
could also have suggested changes in the text itself.

I don't know why people wrote the text before, probably it didn't strike
them as being a problem as they mostly adapted other texts from similar
groups. Anyway, I don't see anything weird here. Sometimes, we do the same
with code: someone just does the job and propose an implementation and then
ask the community what they think. It does not mean the text cannot be
changed,



 You are right that there was a communication problem. But this was not
 presented in this way!

  Ultimately all that it  asks is that people be polite and respectful
  towards others. I don't think that this very onerous.

 This has been discussed and I do not agree. The code of honor is not
 at all welcoming. I would have started any official text by Anybody
 is welcome to contribute or something like that. It looks much more:
 like if you do not agree with somebody then do not say it too loudly.


Once again, the text can be changed, you can make such a proposition...
Also it is not a question of not being loudly, but of being respectful when
disagreeing, which was not always the case in sage-devel.


 +1
 Let me say again on the list that I am in favor of having a text that
 define what is the sage community. And this has to be agreed by
 everyone and modified until a common consensus. A wiki page is open:
 http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageCommunityProposal


That seems like interesting project but it's quite a different one and a
much bigger one. In my opinion, the actual Code of conduct has no
ambition to define the Sage community, I really understand it as some basic
guidelines to behave towards each other...




  The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were
  unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of
  posts. I had tried talking off-list with the person making these to try
 and

 I really think that this should have been said before. This is really
 important to mention that some people were hurt. Anne Schilling
 mentioned some of it but it was never really discussed. It seems that
 it is the hidden subject of that proposal. And it is shameful that
 it ends with the creation of a police.


Once again, I don't see where there is a police. No one has been given any
power over anyone else, there is no sanction mentioned, or anything like
this.



  guidelines in the hope that this might help. I'm still a little baffled
 as
  to why the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other  is causing
  such a commotion.

 You can not state be nice as an order. The only thing which makes
 sense is to say welcome.


I disagree with that. You can say welcome and be nice (or something
more specific like be respectful), I don't see why not.



 Vincent

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-26 16:29 GMT+01:00 Jakob Kroeker kroe...@uni-math.gwdg.de:


 Am Mittwoch, 26. November 2014 14:47:29 UTC+1 schrieb Viviane Pons:


 I would be in favour of this: having guidelines and not an enforced code.


 ++

 ...that would require another voting which invalidates the previous one...


 Probably, but let's not rush into anything!! We've seen the consequence of
that. I agree that the vote was a bit early but I guess William just did as
he thought was best, he wasn't trying to enforce anything but maybe just to
settle the point. He could not predict the direction of the vote, it was a
close call.



 Jakob

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?

[Viviane Pons]

I feel this is going nowhere...

We should start with the assumption we all agree on something: we want the
sage mailing list to be place where no one is bullied and where we can
express our different point of views safely and with respect. I think we
all want that whether we voted yes or no to the code of conduct itself. It
is a sensitive matter because if we don't feel we have this, then it can
affect our involvement into the project itself.

I think everyone's actions so far toward the code of conduct has been
motivated by this goal, on both side.

I don't know who wrote the code of conduct that was proposed and, honestly,
I don't really care. It was maybe a mistake to do it this way and I agree
that Vincent's proposal to work on it on a wiki is better. But I don't
think they did it with bad intentions. And seeing how things are now, I
understand they don't want to say anything and to defend themselves against
being a conspiracy, a secret police or something.

Rather than pointing fingers on how things should have been done, and why
were they done this way... I think we should try to find a solution to our
problem which is the goal I stated: the sage mailing list to be place where
no one is bullied and where we can express our different point of views
safely and with respect. (Of course, this will never be perfect, the idea
is to make our best)

Some of us thought a code of conduct will help to reach this goal and there
was a big debate on the first thread about this very question. There was a
vote and even though the legitimacy of the vote is contested, it still says
something: there are a quite a bunch of people (a majority of the voters)
who think things are not good enough the way they are and wanted a code of
conduct.

So now, in the spirit of a consensus, what should we do? Keeping the code
of conduct as it is is not good, it divides the community and some people
feel excluded and disagree with the process. Leaving things as they were is
not good either, as some people expressed in a vote that they wanted a
change and they might complain if the vote is ignored (and once again, it's
because they feel sage would be a better and safer place with the code).
For the same reason, voting again on the same question is not good, as
whatever the result is, some people will feel excluded.

Is it possible to find a compromise on which people are mostly ok? For
example, I proposed to have some guidelines instead of an actual code.
And Vincent proposed to work on a wiki to make a better text.

Also, the process itself was an issue. To those who contest the vote: in
what condition would you accept whatever the result is? What would you
propose to do?

I hope this helps, and please remind again that we all want the same thing.

Cheers

Viviane

PS: to answer to Nathann specifically, your tone was indeed completely ok
and you were answered with some contempt.

2014-11-26 18:32 GMT+01:00 Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de:

 Hi Nathann,

 On 2014-11-26, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com wrote:
  Volker, Tom:
 
  Please consider the tone of my first email, and the tone of your answers.
  Please consider the code of conduct that was just voted. Can you see
 why
  I may feel that you broke it clearly and cleanly at my expense ? If those
  rules are not only meant to apply to me, do you think the community
 should
  react to that ?

 I think I did react to that. If I didn't then I hope you accept my
 apology.

 Best regards,
 Simon

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: VOTE: code of conduct - ends Monday at midnight, PST.

[Viviane Pons]

I counted the same.

Cheers,

Viviane

2014-11-25 16:33 GMT+01:00 William Stein wst...@gmail.com:

 Hi,

 I just counted and I get:

 [x] Yes -- got 19 votes
 [x] No -- got 15 votes + 2 late votes

 Can somebody count and confirm this?

  -- William


 On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 6:15 AM, Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 2014-11-23, William Stein wst...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hello Sage Developers,
 
  This is a simple majority vote for the original proposed code of
  conduct.  I will close voting on Monday at midnight PST.  (If the vote
  is an exact tie, then that means No - there must be a simple
  majority for this to pass.)   Any member of the sage-devel mailing
  list may vote or abstain.I will delete any messages in this thread
  that is not a vote -- if you want to make further arguments for or
  against, do so elsewhere.
 
   [X] No -- do not adopt the code of conduct stated below
 
  Dima
 
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[sage-devel] What to do with sage-abuse

[Viviane Pons]

Hi all,

one of the questions that was raised by Thierry and not answered (there
were other non answered questions but I'm interested in this one in
particular) is who is in charge  of sage-ab...@googlegroups.com? The code
stated that the group administrators shall consider the issue but I find
this quite restrictive and not in the spirit of the community.

Does anyone have another suggestion for this?

Cheers

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What to do with sage-abuse

[Viviane Pons]

Yes, having it public seems a good idea to me. I'm not sure about the
read-only, for me this list could be a place where you can just send a
message to the community as a whole to point out a thread going out of
hand. (For example, I don't read all threads, so I wouldn't always know).
There is no question of having a court! And administrators shouldn't be
judges.

2014-11-25 17:20 GMT+01:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 Err, sorry, forgot something:

  and of course the debates between administrators should happen on
 this mailing-list, or there is no point. I do not know how courts work
 in the US, but in France anybody can enter a court and hear what is
 being said. Public trials is what prevents (to some extent) the people
 from thinking that justice is given.

 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: What to do with sage-abuse

[Viviane Pons]

Honestly guys,

nobody ever spoke of police and judges and jury...

Thierry, sorry to have misused your name. At some point, you had some
concerns about a list of 12 guys taking all the decisions and that's what
raised my own concern about the the mailing list (sorry for the short-cut).

Cheers

Viviane

2014-11-25 17:34 GMT+01:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 Here is an additional way to preserve the community spirit:

 After their discussion on sage-abuse, the administrators will reach a
 verdict. I assume that the judges will be carefully selected among the
 members of the community, yet their verdict will be pronounced on behalf of
 the community. Hence, we could do like for this very code: the verdict
 reached by the members of the jury could be presented to the community, and
 people would vote Yes/No to apply it.

 This way the decision would be taken by the community again, even though
 the wording (like for this code) and the choice of the sentence would only
 be the one of a reduced set of persons.

 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] VOTE: code of conduct - ends Monday at midnight, PST.

[Viviane Pons]

[X] Yes -- adopt the code of conduct stated below (*)


 Code of Conduct
 ---

 The Sage community is comprised of an international mixture of
 mathematicians, computer scientists, engineers, researchers, teachers,
 amateurs, and others with varied backgrounds. This diversity is one of
 our strengths, but it can also lead to communication problems and
 unhappiness. People who love working on Sage can more effectively
 collaborate with others if they follow this code.

 If you believe someone is violating the code of conduct, we ask that
 you report it by emailing sage-ab...@googlegroups.com. The group
 administrators will consider the issue and explore resolutions. [See
 note below.] It is also possible to move heated discussions to the
 mailing list sage-fl...@googlegroups.com.

 1)   Be friendly and patient.

 2)   Be welcoming. We strive to be a community that welcomes and
 supports people of all backgrounds and identities.

 3)   Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people and you in
 turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you take will
 affect users and developers, so you should take those consequences
 into account when making decisions. Conversely, Sage is constantly
 evolving, and earlier decisions that were made in good faith may
 sometimes need to be reconsidered. Nonetheless, we should still
 appreciate the hard work done in the past.

 4)   Be respectful and polite. Not all of us will agree all the time,
 but disagreement is no excuse for poor behavior and poor manners. We
 might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot
 allow that frustration to morph into personal attacks. It is important
 to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or
 threatened is not a productive one. Members of the Sage community
 should be respectful when dealing with other developers and users.

 When we disagree, we should try to understand why. Disagreements, both
 social and technical, happen all the time. It is important that we
 resolve disagreements and differing views constructively. Being unable
 to understand why someone holds a viewpoint does not mean that they
 are wrong. Do not forget that it is human to err. Blame alone gets us
 nowhere, it is better to help resolve issues so we can all learn from
 our mistakes.

 ---

 NOTE: There were questions on the list about who exactly would deal
 with sage-abuse complaints and how.  If you do not trust that we Sage
 developers can responsibly select people to be on that list, and that
 those members can find ways to sort out issues on a case-by-case
 basis, then you may vote no to this proposal.We are mostly not
 lawyers or politicians and are not going to make things more precise
 in this code regarding composition of the group or specific sanctions.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct

[Viviane Pons]

 You ask about the value of a non-enforced code. I think it's valuable
 to have something to point to, both for setting expectations for new
 contributors and a reminder for long-timers when things get heated. It
 allows one to succinctly re-direct trolls rather than feed them. It
 gives further weight to requests for civility: pointing to the code
 makes it clear that I am not making a request on behalf of myself,
 rather on behalf of the entire community. (Corollary, if you think
 your behavior is acceptable to the majority of the community, call for
 a vote to change the code. That'll be pretty rare...)


+1
That was also my point!




 Explicit, external enforcement has downsides as well. It greatly
 complicates things. It adds an (often unnecessary) level of formality.
 It often leads to the quagmire of drawing drawing of hard lines on
 such squishy topics. It diminishes the motivation for ordinary users
 to call out such behavior as that is someone else's job. Though
 public shaming should be avoided, one of the strongest ways to send a
 message (to the offender and everyone else) about our values is via
 public requests rather than private complaints. Also, what if one
 doesn't agree with the enforcers? Is there an appeals process? How
 small of an issue is too small? These are things I'd rather avoid
 unless it becomes absolutely necessary (which I don't think is the
 case--we're generally doing pretty well).

 What we're after here is a good culture, and cultures are neigh
 impossible to enforce but can be guided. I think it would serve us
 better for the community remain self-policing than abdicate the
 responsibility elsewhere (e.g. a separate sage-abuse group). An
 un-enforced code/guidelines can help with this.

 - Robert

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-22 11:39 GMT+01:00 john_perry_usm john.pe...@usm.edu:

 On Friday, November 21, 2014 11:48:53 PM UTC+1, Simon King wrote:

 In some post in this thread it was claimed that another post was sexist,
 even though there was enough reason to refuse the claim. One person imputed
 bad intention to another person, without considering in dubio pro. Such
 questionable, annoying and distracting claims and imputations will occur a
 lot more when they can be based on the authority of a code of conduct. I
 don't want it. That's how my comment is related with the current discussion.


 +1. I repeat that a code that isn't enforced is worse than no code at all.


That might be true for a code of conduct, but if we have only
recommendation then it doesn't have to be enforced (or so I believe).

Simon mentioned many times that don't feed the troll was the right thing
to do. In my opinion, it is not quite enough. Let's say you receive a
personal attack on a thread if you leave it just there, it's not helping
you:

* the thread was probably started on a real question that you still want to
discuss. You can start another thread but you might be afraid that the
attack just occurs again.

* you leave a public attack to you unanswered on a public forum, I find it
difficult to do.

* if you say nothing to the other person, you might give him/ her the idea
that he/she was right to do so. (And also maybe future readers, speaking of
giving the good example)

On the example Anne gave, some of you mentioned that they talked to Nathann
and told him privately that he was being out of line. In my opinion, with a
list of recommendations we all agree on, we can just say publicly on the
forum.

Please remember recommendations (a) and (b). This is out of line, let's go
back to the original question.

Of course, we can already do this somehow. But I feel the recommendation
give us some objective points to check. It assures us that it's not us
being oversensitive and that we have support of the community.

Best,

Viviane








 john perry

 PS For what it's worth, Simon, I first recall reading about political
 correctness back in the 80s in a right-wing political magazine, shortly 
 before
 I went to university. The Wikipedia article was illuminating on the
 term's origin; I had no idea it started on the far left, and moved b/c the
 neoconservatives imported. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-21 23:48 GMT+01:00 Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de:



 In some post in this thread it was claimed that another post was sexist,
 even though there was enough reason to refuse the claim. One person imputed
 bad intention to another person, without considering in dubio pro. Such
 questionable, annoying and distracting claims and imputations will occur a
 lot more when they can be based on the authority of a code of conduct. I
 don't want it. That's how my comment is related with the current discussion.


But if someone has doubt on a sentence being sexist or not, isn't it better
if this doubt is removed? I think we all agreed now that this was only a
language issue. I knew that already but if Mike had doubts, better for
Nathann that this is now clear!





 Cheers,
 Simon

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct

[Viviane Pons]

Well, except that a few people here said that they felt insulted in the
past and didn't know what to do about it. And some expressed the need of
some kind of code of conduct... William even said he knew some people had
left because of some bad behavior. So just saying everthing is fine
because we are all nice people is not solving the problem. It's true that
we're mostly good and everything goes fine most of time. As Nathann said,
this very conversation proves we're note that bad. But we shouldn't just
ignore the fact that we're not perfect. Everyone of us can be offensive to
somebody at some point.

I'm not saying the code of conduct would prevent people from insulting each
other. I'm just saying that it could give a common base to tell someone
you're being out of line. I'm pretty sure, this would be enough most of
the time.

Cheers

Viviane

2014-11-20 10:11 GMT+01:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

  In situations where it looks like real abuse has occurred, a committee
  of arbiters should exist to rule on it.  Otherwise, we're left with
  mob rule and the onlooker effect (where nobody speaks up to stop
  abuse, assuming somebody else will take care of it).
 
  My experience with sage lists is that what you describe in
  Otherwise,... does not happen.

 +1.

 Similarly, it has been said that a code of conduct would prevent
 people from insulting each other and I don't think I ever saw that
 happen here.
 I mean. Except somebody insulting himself publicly.

 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct

[Viviane Pons]

2014-11-19 20:56 GMT+01:00 Mike Zabrocki mike.zabro...@gmail.com:

 A bunch of 10~20 guys who can talk together for days about having or

 not a code of conduct, each expressing his own voice and mixing it
 with the others'... really have no communication problem :-P

 Am I misreading this or does this belong on sage-sexist-comments ?


I honestly don't think it was...



 -Mike

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I have been following this for a while even if I didn't post. I am actually
in favor of a code of conduct even so I understand its limitations.

Anyway, what I think we really need is something to do when you feel
insulted or offended in a thread. Something to take into account is that
this usually takes place in tiresome, time consuming conversations and the
offended person has usually very limited energy left. A bad scenario is
if this person just stops talking for a while and a worst one is when this
person just stops getting involved in sage-devel (or sage) altogether. This
is what we want to avoid.

Is moving to sage-flame enough? It seems ok but the fact that we're not
actually moving the conversation might be a problem. Also the vote
process that William proposed seemed quite heavy to me because it might
lead to more debates and, as I said, the offended persons could already be
on the edge of stopping the talking altogether.
Some other questions: is posting on sage-flame a good enough reason to be
allowed to insult people? (I don't feel it should be) What do we do if it's
not a thread that's going out of line but comments on sage-tracks?

I feel a code of conduct could just be a good shared base of good
attitude to follow... Something to help you say to someone this is a
personal attack, you're being out of line with a feeling that you're
supported by the community doing so. I don't mind if we don't call it
code, common sense recommendations would be enough for me.

Cheers

Viviane

2014-11-19 22:43 GMT+01:00 Viviane Pons vivianep...@gmail.com:



 2014-11-19 20:56 GMT+01:00 Mike Zabrocki mike.zabro...@gmail.com:

 A bunch of 10~20 guys who can talk together for days about having or

 not a code of conduct, each expressing his own voice and mixing it
 with the others'... really have no communication problem :-P

 Am I misreading this or does this belong on sage-sexist-comments ?


 I honestly don't think it was...



 -Mike

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[sage-devel] Re: Tell me how the design of the Poset class is not flawed

[Viviane Pons]

I don't know much about the design of Posets, I guess Travis knows much
more than I do. But from what I see, the problem comes specifically from
the relabel method, can you reproduce an equality error without using
relabel?

This, for instance, is working as it should:

sage: p1 = Poset(([1,2,3],[(2,1),(3,1)]))
sage: p2 = Poset(([1,3,2],[(2,1),(3,1)]))
sage: p1==p2
True



2014-09-29 13:57 GMT+02:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 Hello everybody,

 Here is the current design of the Poset class:

 def Poset(an_acyclic_labelled_digraph):
 ...
 FinitePoset(UniqueRepresentation):
 def __init__(self, an_integer_labelled_hasse_diagram,
 list_of_vertex_labels):
 ...

 As FinitePoset are UniqueRepresentation, two posets p1,p2 are equal if and
 only if they were created in the very same way, i.e. if the pairs
 (an_integer_labelled_hasse_diagram, list_of_vertex_labels) are equal in
 both cases.

 The problem, now, is the following: given a labelled digraph D, how can
 you associate to D in a unique way a pair
 (an_integer_labelled_hasse_diagram, list_of_vertex_labels) ?

 The answer, as far as I can tell, is that this is impossible because there
 is not necessarily a total order on the set of vertex labels.

 Apply any of the digraph automorphism to the list of labels and you get
 the very same graph, but the posets will be non-equal for
 UniqueRepresentation.

 This is one of the reasons behind the bug reported 2 years ago in #14019:

 sage: d = DiGraph({2:[1],3:[1]})
 sage: p1 = Poset(d)
 sage: p2 = p1.relabel({1:1,2:3,3:2})
 sage: p1.hasse_diagram() == p2.hasse_diagram()
 True
 sage: p1 == p2
 False

 We cannot have a UniqueRepresentation poset class which takes a list of
 vertices as arguments. It must only take a HasseDigraph. If you see another
 way, please enlighten me.

 Nathann


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[sage-devel] Re: Tell me how the design of the Poset class is not flawed

[Viviane Pons]

Well, then can you find other places where this design is an issue? (What I
mean by that, is giving wrong answer)

Otherwise, maybe it can be fixed on the relabel function level (once again,
I don't know how it works). And yes, I agree Sage should should say True on
the example you give.

2014-09-29 14:23 GMT+02:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

  But from what I see, the problem comes specifically from the
  relabel method,

 My design problem is asbtract well-defined.

  can you reproduce an equality error without using relabel?

 No, is that a problem ?

 Nathann


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Why I don't think Sage has failed as a replacement for Maple, Mathematica and other Ma*'s

[Viviane Pons]

 Then you would know that 1/2 = 0, and that wouldn't trouble you.  In
 Lisp,  1/2  is
 what you would might expect.  For example (=  (+ 1/2 1/2)   1)   returns
 t.  And Maxima
 also knows about 1/2.


In Sage, 1/2 is the fraction 1/2 and so you do have :

sage: 1/2
1/2
sage: 1/2+1/2
1

On the sage interface, integers are Sage Integers and not python int. But
yes, if you write a .py file that you call with sage, then 1 is a python
int and you have:

sage: int(1)/int(2)
0

which is quite common for many programming languages as floats are quite a
messy thing (which is not due to python, floats are messy everywhere).

sage: 0.5+0.5==1.
True
sage: 3*0.1==0.3
False







 On Thursday, September 25, 2014 10:13:20 AM UTC-5, rjf wrote:



 On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 11:33:19 PM UTC-7, Chris Seberino wrote:

 I read W. Stein's blog on why he thinks Sage is failing since it isn't
 on par with Maple, Mathematica and other Ma*'s *now*.

 I teach high schoolers and college students.  At that level Sage is
 more than adequate as a replacement for all Ma*'s now.


 I am curious as to what parts of Sage you use.  I suspect you are using
 it mostly as a front-end to Maxima,
 In which case -- have you considered using Maxima directly, esp.
 wxmaxima?

 Thanks for any info.


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

 I would also be very happy if 1-based permutations were not at the same
 time 0-based words, i.e.:

 sage: Permutation([3,2,1])(1)
 3
 sage: Permutation([3,2,1])[1]
 2


I understand your concern but on the other hand, the following behavior is
good:

sage: Permutation([3,2,1])
[3, 2, 1]
sage: list(Permutation([3,2,1]))
[3, 2, 1]
sage: list(Permutation([3,2,1]))[0]
3
sage: list(Permutation([3,2,1]))[0] == Permutation([3,2,1])[0]
True

I wouldn't want list(perm) to return something different than the
permutation word itself, especially because I want to have:

sage: perm = Permutation([3,2,1])
sage: Permutation(list(perm)) == perm
True

I'm afraid that by fixing this, we would just break other things and
obtain very annoying behavior in practice. For me the 0-based word is not
really a problem. People who want to stay strictly 1-based can use only the
call perm(i) and you need perm[i] only when digging inside the structure
itself.

Best,

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

I think most of the problems here come from the fact that we're using the
wrong objects to do things. For many things, it makes much more sense to
use permutations as a product of cylces and store them this way etc. Maybe
the one that should be used here is more a PermutationGroupElement (I
never use this class so I don't really know how handy it is).

But the permutation object Permutation is more like a combinatorial object
that basically is a word with some extra properties. For example, I never
use the cycle notation... And for everything I do with permutations, the
list notation (and the list structure) is what I want. For me, the
list(perm), the perm[i], and the perm(i) all make sense and are useful.
Many algorithms on the Permutation object actually use this kind of
structure, especially all the combinatorial maps that send permutations
to other combinatorial objects like Dyck paths, binary trees, tableaux or
whatever.

Also, you have to keep in mind that this object has already been
implemented in a certain way, which is the list way. I'm not saying it's
the good way but many people actually use this and rely on this on their
code (especially the perm[i] and perm(i), I myself have tons of code using
this).

Best

Viviane

2014-09-11 14:14 GMT+02:00 Pierre pierre.guil...@gmail.com:

 sorry some keyboard shortcut has sent the post. I was saying:

 def C(*args): #C for cycle
 return Permutation([ args ])

 and then for (1, 2, 3)(4, 5) I type C(1, 2, 3) * C(4, 5). I got very used
 to it.

 cheers
 Pierre


 On Thursday, September 11, 2014 2:12:21 PM UTC+2, Pierre wrote:

 Hi all,

 Here are a few suggestions:

 (1) permutations have a to_matrix() method; permuting the rows of M
 according to the permutation sigma can be done by

 M= M * sigma.to_matrix()

 and for the rows:

 M= sigma.to_matrix().transpose() * M

 Of course there is a debate about the behaviour of to_matrix() ; however
 i think the code for matrices should rely on to_matrix(), and then at least
 the conversation would be strictly one about the code for permutations.
 This answers a complain above.

 (2) if sigma is a permutation, i don't think sigma[i] should make sense
 at all. This requires the user to appreciate that sigma is implemented as a
 list, which i think is not a good idea. Of course some people (including
 me) want the permutation as a word; why not have a as_word() method, which
 could take a bunch of parameters for shifting (starting from 0 instead of 1
 for example...) ?

 Also, permutations should always print in cycle notation, just like in
 GAP ! It's much easier to read, and drives the user away from the idea that
 the permutation is a list.

 [By the way, i also don't think sigma(i) should be implemented. The
 permutations in Sage act on the right, so i^sigma, just like in GAP, is
 more logical. This is not a very useful comment as changing the behaviour
 of standard ints is complicated (if possible at all?), and backward
 compatibility is needed.]

 (3) in fact i agree that permutations should not be implemented as lists,
 and should be thought of as acting on all integers from 0, as was
 suggested. Would the multiplication be as fast if they were stored as lists
 of cycles? I'm thinking that an implementation as a dictionnary, much like
 a sparse matrix, would be reasonable.

 (4) Here's a notation I use when I have a lot of permutation to input
 interactively:

 def C(*args) :  # C for cycle







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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

Rather than having Permutation0 and Permutation1, I would rather have an
object which is a 0-based permutation attached with a set on which it's
acting. A classic permutation would be a 0-based permutation acting on
{1,...,n}. The idea is to separate the permutation process itself (which is
classically 0-based and could be used in many contexts) and the
combinatorial object Permutation which should stay 1-based.

And yes Nathan, everyone agrees there are some lack of consistency and the
one you mention about bruhat_inversions and inversions is definitely one.
But still, the solution is not to remove 1-based permutation. Maybe I could
be more clear, if 1-based permutations were removed, I would have to use an
old version of Sage so that I can properly work, or fork it, or
re-introduce them. I NEED THEM FOR MY RESEARCH, can you understand that?
And I'm definitely not the only one.

Best

Viviane

2014-09-10 15:30 GMT+02:00 Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com:

 On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 2:11:17 PM UTC+1, Nathann Cohen wrote:

 1) Change the current code to handle 0-based AND 1-based permutations; or
 2) Have two versions of each function


 IMHO its rather easy. You never really do arithmetic with the indices in
 combinatorics as they are just arbitrary labels. 90% of the work will be
 just moving loop ranges to a single method that differs in the two
 implementations:

 for i in range(1,n+1):
 do_something(i)

 to

 for i in self._range(n):
 do_something(i)


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

It is not bluff Nathann. And it's no bluff either to say that many many
valuable people would just stop using Sage if it stopped handling 1-based
permutations. Sage is a mathematical software and it makes sense that it
should print and accept inputs of the mathematical objects I use the way I
use them in my math... As you know, I have no trouble understanding 0-based
arrays, this is not the problem here. I'm not bluffing, I NEED those
objects. I'm not sure what is so difficult for you to understand here.

0-based arrays are not incompatible with 1-based permutations. I'm sure
that in the history of computer science, much more complicated data
structures  than 1-based permutations have been implemented... The way it
is now is not that bad, in the sense that even so it's not good, I'm using
it every day and it's very very useful for me (and for many others). I
don't have major problems with it, it works completely fine for what I do
with permutations. I understand it's not the case for everyone and I like
clean / consistent code, so yes, it could be better designed, improved,
etc. But I don't understand why 1-based permutations could not exist : we
need a way to leave them here for the people who need them without letting
them affect the people who don't need them...


2014-09-10 17:04 GMT+02:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com:

 Hello !

  and the
  combinatorial object Permutation which should stay 1-based.

 I disagree.

  And yes Nathan, everyone agrees there are some lack of consistency and
 the
  one you mention about bruhat_inversions and inversions is definitely one.

 It is not what I say. What I say is that 1-based  permutations are so
 uncompatible with Python's standard that we will never be at peace until we
 have 0-based permutations instead. And I take this function as evidence.

  But still, the solution is not to remove 1-based permutation. Maybe I
 could
  be more clear, if 1-based permutations were removed, I would have to use
 an
  old version of Sage so that I can properly work, or fork it, or
 re-introduce
  them. I NEED THEM FOR MY RESEARCH, can you understand that? And I'm
  definitely not the only one.

 It makes me weep when I think of all those mathematicians who stopped
 using computers because arrays are 0-indexed.

 Sorry, but I call that bluff.

 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

I'm confirming what Dima and Martin just said: a lot of us need to see
permutations as words. For most of what I do, a permutation of size 4 is
just a word on the letter 1234. And in this case, the fact that it is
1-based or 0-based matters. It mostly matters in terms of printing and
input.

2014-09-10 22:37 GMT+02:00 'Martin R' via sage-devel 
sage-devel@googlegroups.com:

 Am Mittwoch, 10. September 2014 21:03:36 UTC+2 schrieb Nils Bruin:

 On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 11:51:55 AM UTC-7, Martin R wrote:

 I think that's what PermutationGroup and PermutationGroupElement do.

 No:

 sage: PermutationGroupElement((2,3,4)).parent()
 Symmetric group of order 4! as a permutation group
 sage: PermutationGroupElement([1,2,3]).parent()
 Symmetric group of order 3! as a permutation group

 They live in Sym({1,...,n}) (where n is somehow divined from the input),
 not in the injective limit of those things.


 You are right. What I had in mind was:

 sage: S3 = PermutationGroup([['b','c','a'],['a','c','b']],
 domain=['a','b','c'])
 sage: S3.list()
 [(), ('b','c'), ('a','b'), ('a','b','c'), ('a','c','b'), ('a','c')]

 I agree with you that a permutation should be a set of cycles.  There are
 two natural options then: anything that does not appear in a cycle is a
 fixed point, or the domain is the set of elements appearing in the cycles.

 It's important though to be able to regard standard permutations as
 words, too...

 Martin

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

I understand that you would expect the same result when calling a function
on a list and on a tuple. I'm still not sure it needs to be changed: what
you call a bug is obviously a feature for many people.

And nevertheless, what I don't see is why you would expect the same
behaviour when calling () or [ ] on a object. Yes, maybe, it wasn't the
best choice. But it's not absurd: it just considers the permutation to be a
word and adds the () feature to use it as a function. Changing this would
just mess tons of people work, mine included.

But anyway we're going very far from the original subject. I'm not sure
anyone has time now to rethink permutations entirely in a way that would be
more consistent and without messing people's code and work, i.e. without
erasing everythink as you suggest and change behaviour everywhere on a
object that is used by many many people.

Best,
Viviane
Le 8 sept. 2014 08:07, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com a écrit :

  When Sage does something different than what I expect, I look at the doc
  instead of wondering why it's different

 When a list becomes a tuple and all of a sudden a 10 lines functions (that
 calls other functions) returns wrong answers I swear that you don't. Come
 on Travis open your eyes, this thing is dead misleading.

  It's not a bug because it's not doing something wrong. It's just doing
  something different than you expect. Moreover I would not necessarily
 expect
  those two to behave in the same way because I'm giving different input;
  especially for p(1) and p[1].

 Travis, you can't even expect an user to be able to get the doc for () and
 []. And it's not even the problem. This [] notation is about considering a
 1-based permutation as a 0-based arrays that returns 1-based indices.

 Can you really not see that it is a bad idea ?

 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

Le 6 sept. 2014 11:41, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com a écrit :

 I'd just write two different classes for permutations. The underlying
bit-twiddling is different but various high-level structures can be
inherited to both. At the end of the day the permutation should be defined
how it acts on an ordered container, regardless of whether the container is
indexed starting at 0 or 1. Anything that just depends on this action can
be shared between the two classes. And yes, different _repr_ so you don't
get confused all the time. And no coercion between the two permutation
types, if you want to multiply a 0- and a 1-based permutation then you have
to convert explicitly to your favorite representation.



Yes, I think that's the way to go. We have to separate the Permutation as a
combinatorical mathematical object (which starts at one) and the underlying
structure which starts at 0.

Also, I agree Nathan has a point with the cycle notation. It shouln't be a
single cycle but a list. There is still the problem of backward compatibily.

Appart from that, I won't try anymore to convince people (Nathan) that
1-perm are needed. The point is: they exist, they are used and there is
definitly no consensus to remove them. Nathan, I would be glad if you
could  give *some* credit to the people who use permutations the way they
are and listen when we tell you: we need them to start at 1!! Yes there are
some +-1 in my code but better there than in my head ALL THE TIME. Sage is
mathematical software and I conceive it to print my objects as I use them
in my maths. I don't say that your concerns are ill founded but the
solution is not to remove 1-perms all together.

Cheers

Viviane



 On Saturday, September 6, 2014 8:13:58 AM UTC+1, Nathann Cohen wrote:

  So how about making it explicit, have separate Permutation and
Permutation0 (instead of tuple vs list). They can share most of the
backend, its just a slightly different set that they operate on. In Code,
you just call sigma = Permutation0(sigma) on user input in the beginning to
convert it to your desired presentation if you depend on the actual
integers.

 This would be cool, but how do we write the code afterwards ? What are
 the objects returned by Permutation1 and Permutation0 ? The functions
 of this class have been written with a standard in mind, and if you
 let it deal with 0-based permutations and 1-based ones some functions
 will break.

 And if we make 1-based permutations be 0-based permutations with a
 diferent __repr__, a different __call__ and a different __getitem__ we
 will run into problem too.. How could we make this strategy work ?

 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

Your last example makes petgect sense in terms of mathematics:
the first one is a petmutation as a word and the second one is a
permutation as a group element. We need BOTH and we need both to be simple.
The diff between brackets and parenthesis is quite natural AND consistent
with mathematic notation.
And I must add that even so it is annoying for code, we do need the
1-starting permutations. All the combinatorists I know do not even think a
permutation can start at 0. It makes things more complicated for us and we
need to put extra care in code and documentation but we do need to print
and accept entries as 1-starting perms. Not only for backward compatibility
but also for real-non-coder-people compatibility.

Cheers

Viviane
Le 5 sept. 2014 17:00, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com a écrit :

  I just had a quick look at it, and the following looks downright scary:

 It is one of this code's many wonders. Also, note that :

 sage: Permutation([1,2,3])
 [1, 2, 3]
 sage: Permutation((1,2,3))
 [2, 3, 1]

 I hate that code.

 Nathann

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: #16577: enable 0-based row/column permutation of matrices

[Viviane Pons]

The Permutation0 might be a good idea, I don't know... It wouldn't change
the tuple vs. list thing which is used to distinguish between the cycle
notation and the word notation.

I agree some of the syntax could be improved. But I do think backward
compatibility is important. It's really annoying when you have to rewrite
ALL your old personal code when you update your sage version (which happens
all the time), and I know it's a put-off for many people (and Sage has
quite a bad reputation for it).

Also, Nathann, please do not assume that you represent all the Sage coders.
I'm a Sage coder and user, and I use 1-Permutation. I use them ALL THE TIME
and I need them.  In every single of my programs, because permutation is my
main object of study!  And the users you seem to so easily ignore are
contributors too. They contribute to algorithms and maps on permutations
that are useful to everyone. The fact is that in the math world, in every
single paper about the symmetric group, the permutations are 1-Permutations
and it makes sense to have them.

As Volker says, it's an old debate and you can't just erase everyone else's
work and point of views because it suits you. The fact that it makes you
lose time is bad and yes, we have to do something about it. But there is no
simple answer and people are making efforts to handle all these different
situations as best as they could.

Cheers

Viviane


2014-09-05 22:16 GMT+02:00 Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com:

 The whole 0 vs. 1 based permutations (Python vs. Matlab :-) is always
 confusing. And there is good reason and history in both conventions, so we
 should IMHO accept that we'll have to live with it. Its not something that
 can be solved satisfactorily by trying to guess the user's intentions, you
 can never say for sure if thats a 0-based permutation that just doesn't act
 on 0.

 So how about making it explicit, have separate Permutation and
 Permutation0 (instead of tuple vs list). They can share most of the
 backend, its just a slightly different set that they operate on. In Code,
 you just call sigma = Permutation0(sigma) on user input in the beginning to
 convert it to your desired presentation if you depend on the actual
 integers.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] You don't really think that Sage has failed, do you? (a comment about it)

[Viviane Pons]

From what I understand, nobody here is saying what *should* be but more how
it is. I think the debate on whether people support one way or another is
mostly irrelevant here, even so, I do understand the frustration and I do
think myself that all this national stuff is quite stupid.

Anyway, here's my point of view on why Europe should support Sage for
pro-Europe reason and I would like the opinion of some of you here who
seem to know more on how these fundings work.

Sage is definitely NOT a American project. It is not own by any American
university, it is used and constructed by many researcher in world,
especially by many European people. To support that fact, we have indeed
the many Sage days which have been organized in Europe with European funds.
I understand from your comments that we really have to emphasize this.
So Sage is needed and used by many European researchers. If Europe is not
funding Sage, then those researcher rely on Amercian fundings to go to Sage
days, to use servers etc. European funds could be used for opening a Sage
service on some servers, just as SMC in Washington. (Nothing against SMC
but it would make sense to have our own service in Europe that does not
depend on an American university).
My point here is mostly: if Europe don't fund Sage then Sage is becoming
de-facto an American project (through funding) and it should not be this
way...

I don't really have time to develop that here, but I'd like to know if
emphasizing this necessity for Europe to fund Sage sound like a good
strategy. There is no European-Sage that should be developed against the
American-sage, there's a International-Sage and Europe should be part
of it.

I must say that this national way of thinking is not natural for me or for
any of the Sage developers who are going to write this application. We have
to find a way to defend the utility of Sage for Europe without being too
much in a contradiction with own beliefs in open-source and border-free
development models.

Cheers

Viviane


2014-08-30 10:46 GMT+02:00 William A Stein wst...@uw.edu:

 On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Bill Hart goodwillh...@googlemail.com
 wrote:
 
 
  On Saturday, 30 August 2014 00:35:01 UTC+2, Robert Bradshaw wrote:
 
  On Fri, Aug 29, 2014 at 5:03 AM, Bill Hart goodwi...@googlemail.com
  wrote:
  
   On Friday, 29 August 2014 13:17:40 UTC+2, Volker Braun wrote:
  
   First of all, it always saddens me when the ugly head of nationalism
   rears
   its head. I thought the time where we only support German science
 were
   over...
 
  +1
 
   You have misunderstood. When applying for German funding, the rules
 will
   naturally state that the project must benefit the people paying for
 the
   work, namely German companies and Mutter und Vater taxpayer.
  
   When applying for European funding, the rules will naturally state
 that
   the
   funding must benefit the people paying for the work, namely the
 European
   Union members.
 
  I would say that the beneficiaries are (1) those funded to do the work
  and (2) all users of the work. It's not like the money would go to the
  US or even the project.
 
 
  Then the grant would be rejected.
 
 
 
   The idea that European funds should be used primarily to support an
   international project *with no direct benefit to European projects*
   invoked
   in the grant is patently a non-starter. That's just as bad, in my
   opinion,
   as taking public funds to work on a closed source mathematical system!
 
  You're a big fan of Julia. However, would you argue that European
  funds should not be used to support it because it's not a European
  Project?
 
 
  Yes.

 Would you argue that American funds should not be used to support
 Pari, Singular, GAP, etc., etc., because they are not American
 Projects?

  I'd say the criteria would be whether Europeans benefit from
  Julia (and I one could argue from a protectionist economic perspective
  whether Europeans are the ones being paid to do the work, though I'd
  just rather pay the best available person).
 
  Sadly, if the people judging these grants have this perspective, one
  might have to sell efforts like sage-combinat as a European
  project rather than part of Sage.
 
 
  Yes.

 Would you argue that American funds should not be used to support
 sage-combinat?(In fact, the NSF has directly funded sage-combinat
 [1].)

 Or do you apply a double standard for European funds versus outside funds?

 And most importantly when you say should above, do you mean:

   [ ] you think this is the way it *should* be, or

   [ ] you simply mean that you believe -- via your reading of the EU
 grant guidelines -- that this is how it *is* right now.   There's an
 enormous difference between these two choices.

 

 [1] Linked NSF grant funding sage-combinat
 (
 http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/advancedSearchResult?QueryText=sage-combinatActiveAwards=true#results
 ):

 Collaborative Research: SI2-SSE: Sage-Combinat: Developing and Sharing
 Open Source 

Re: [sage-devel] PyCon talk proposal

[Viviane Pons]

Good!

I just discovered there is a PyConFr. I might go there as well and submit a
talk.

Daniel: good news ;) I hope to see you there in Montreal then!


2014-08-28 10:47 GMT+02:00 mmarco mma...@unizar.es:

 The spanish python conference (PyConEs) will happen in november. I am
 thinking about proposing myself for a short presentation of Sage.

 El jueves, 28 de agosto de 2014 09:07:11 UTC+2, Daniel Krenn escribió:

 Am 2014-08-26 um 11:58 schrieb Viviane Pons:
  a reminder that you still have until 15th of September to submit a
  talk for PyCon 2015 in Montreal. I read some of you are attending
  SciPyEurope or EuroPython and that's great! [...] - have you
  developed or are you using some framework or something specifically
  for your code that could benefit the entire Pycon community
  (categories, debugging, etc)?

 I'll try to give an introductory talk about coercion and categories in
 Sage.

  Also, we're in touch with the PyCon organization team to have Sage
  days organized during the PyCon sprints, so there will be Sage people
  at PyCon next year, so you should consider going!

 :)

 Daniel


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] You don't really think that Sage has failed, do you? (a comment about it)

[Viviane Pons]

I really agree with your comments. And in terms of niche, I would add
that Sage is actually becoming one for combinatorics. I don't say that
everyone in combinatorics is using Sage but I know lots of people
(including me) for whom it would be quite complicated to move to another
language. And we do have lots of high skilled researcher that develop their
newest algorithms into sage and not in the MMMs.

I also agree with externalization and larger communities. That is one of
the reasons I was promoting PyCon here and why I'm organizing these PyCon
Sage days. I think we have a lot to learn and gain from other python
developers and projects.


 For information: we will have a preparatory meeting for this grant
 application on September 8-9th in Orsay. Feel free to join.


Noted ;)

Cheers,

Viviane




 Cheers,
 Nicolas

 [1] http://sagebook.gforge.inria.fr/

 PS for William: please be super careful with wording. Referees of
 grant applications will look around to access the value of Sage and
 its chances of success.


 --
 Nicolas M. Thiéry Isil nthi...@users.sf.net
 http://Nicolas.Thiery.name/

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-release] You don't really think that Sage has failed, do you? (a comment about it)

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I have been following part of this conversation and I think there is one
aspect here that most of you are missing. Sage does not chose... Sage is
not a mess on purpose, but it is developed by a big number of people and
people develop what they need. So if all developers are researchers, then
mostly research aspects are going to be developed, not interface and basic
usage. I think most sage users agree that the interface could be made
better but as nerd-mathematicians, we are not the ones qualified to do it
(and we don't want to cause we don't have the time).

There are two ways of solving this problem: more funding and more diverse
users, which both imply a better interface so it looks like an infinite
loop. The efforts that William Stein put into SageMathCloud are going into
the right direction to leave the loop. He said so himself, he decided to
put lots of effort into non-mathematical aspects that, I suppose, do not
interest him that much, because he wants to reach more users. Doing so, we
can reach non-researcher users, like teachers, who might want to contribute
into a better documentation / interface. And of course, if SageMathCloud
becomes a viable funding source, then some developers could be hired which
would help.

Choosing what aspect you want to improve only comes with funding.
Otherwise, you can just take whatever people develop...


2014-08-27 17:09 GMT+02:00 kcrisman kcris...@gmail.com:

 Interesting comment on the post on Facebook.  Note the comment about
 payment as well.
 +++
 In my university, we have been using a sagenb server for three years. We
 use it in Calculus/Algebra courses for mathematicians, electrical
 ingenieers, agricultural ingenieers, etc. We really use a few basic
 commands. If Sage has the 1% functionality or less than Magma, Mathematica,
 etc, is not a problem for us. Our main problem is that the manual and
 documentation are a mess, lacking of enough examples (please, why not do
 something like Mathematica?). Anothe problem is the interface, for
 instance, you can not select several cells and make copy/paste (I know this
 is posible with sagemathcloud). Or for instance, it is difficult to avoid
 that pupils share worksheets in a final individual test. With respect to
 functionality we have problems with basic graphics (some of them fixed
 today, to be fair). Still having problems solving basic inequalities.
 Come on guys, SAGE has A LOT of possibilities that make it for
 universities a better choice than Mathematica, Maple, etc. But you should
 take care of interface, manuals and help and basic functionalities. I'm
 sure that many universities would pay if flexible possibilities of payment
 are allowed.
 In my opinión SAGE has to choose:
 1. Focus on development of more and new specialiced functionalities. In
 this case, its users will be a small group of researchers that don't care
 how rough or how time consuming is to make a few instructions to work
 properly. Besides, it will be difficult to obtain financing, thus you can
 compete only in a Little specialized part (magma, mathematica, maple, GAP
 all together is too ambicious).
 2. Focus on basic functionalities on calculus and basic algebra for
 teaching. They need to be improved (the power of Maxima is poor in
 inequalities, integrals, numeric series... it is not enough at all). They
 need also to be user friendly and easy to learn. In this case maybe you can
 obtain money from universities and with that money, maybe you can work on
 quaternion algebras.

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[sage-combinat-devel] PyCon talk proposal

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

a reminder that you still have until 15th of September to submit a talk for
PyCon 2015 in Montreal. I read some of you are attending SciPyEurope or
EuroPython and that's great!

A talk proposal is much shorter than a conference paper, mine took only one
day to write. If you don't know what you could talk about, here are some
ideas:

- how do you use Python in your research?

- have you developed or are you using some framework or something
specifically for your code that could benefit the entire Pycon community
(categories, debugging, etc)?

- Are you using Sage to teach and could you share that experience?

- How do you teach to code to mathematicians?

- sharing you experience of a big open source project.

These are just some ideas. My own talk proposal is about Experimental
mathematics in combinatorics, so mostly answering the first question.

If you don't want to talk for 20 minutes, there are also some 5 minutes
talks.

About funding, it is possible to get funding from PyCon itself for
registration and / or travel costs. Anyway, you should first worry about
submitting a talk and worry about the funding later...

Also, we're in touch with the PyCon organization team to have Sage days
organized during the PyCon sprints, so there will be Sage people at PyCon
next year, so you should consider going!

Cheers,

Viviane

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[sage-devel] PyCon talk proposal

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

a reminder that you still have until 15th of September to submit a talk for
PyCon 2015 in Montreal. I read some of you are attending SciPyEurope or
EuroPython and that's great!

A talk proposal is much shorter than a conference paper, mine took only one
day to write. If you don't know what you could talk about, here are some
ideas:

- how do you use Python in your research?

- have you developed or are you using some framework or something
specifically for your code that could benefit the entire Pycon community
(categories, debugging, etc)?

- Are you using Sage to teach and could you share that experience?

- How do you teach to code to mathematicians?

- sharing you experience of a big open source project.

These are just some ideas. My own talk proposal is about Experimental
mathematics in combinatorics, so mostly answering the first question.

If you don't want to talk for 20 minutes, there are also some 5 minutes
talks.

About funding, it is possible to get funding from PyCon itself for
registration and / or travel costs. Anyway, you should first worry about
submitting a talk and worry about the funding later...

Also, we're in touch with the PyCon organization team to have Sage days
organized during the PyCon sprints, so there will be Sage people at PyCon
next year, so you should consider going!

Cheers,

Viviane

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[sage-combinat-devel] Sage Days at PyCon 2015

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I've just written to the PyCon organizing team about making SageDays as a
satelite even for next year conference (April 2015). The idea would be to
organize the Sage Days during the sprint days of the PyCon conference. This
is not done yet but I'm very confident it's going to happen! Anyway, if
you're interested in helping us with the organization or if you have ideas
or suggestions, please write to me.

Also, the talk proposal have been open for PyCon 2015 in Montreal:

https://us.pycon.org/2015/

I'm going to propose a talk about experimental mathematics in
combinatorics, I'm pretty sure many things we do here in Sage are really
interesting for PyCon people, so do propose talks!

All the best

Viviane

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[sage-devel] Sage Days at PyCon 2015

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I've just written to the PyCon organizing team about making SageDays as a
satelite even for next year conference (April 2015). The idea would be to
organize the Sage Days during the sprint days of the PyCon conference. This
is not done yet but I'm very confident it's going to happen! Anyway, if
you're interested in helping us with the organization or if you have ideas
or suggestions, please write to me.

Also, the talk proposal have been open for PyCon 2015 in Montreal:

https://us.pycon.org/2015/

I'm going to propose a talk about experimental mathematics in
combinatorics, I'm pretty sure many things we do here in Sage are really
interesting for PyCon people, so do propose talks!

All the best

Viviane

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[sage-combinat-devel] Talk

[Viviane Pons]

Hi everyone,

I gave a 5 minutes lighting talk yesterday at SciPy on Experimental pure
mathematics with sage and it was quite a success!

You can watch it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMyto7WHiNslist=PLYx7XA2nY5GfuhCvStxgbynFNrxr3VFog

(at 30:20)

I intend to make it a long talk for next PyCon, suggestions are welcome!

Cheers,

Viviane

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: [sage-combinat-devel] Re: redesign combinatorial statistics

[Viviane Pons]

I actually do think it would be a really good thing to have a statfinder
within sage, and somehow merge findstat code with sage code. It would
benefit both sage and findstat users. At the end, both FindStat and Sage
have the same aim: using computers to help us doing research. I understand
completely that it should have no impact on performance for other people
(but it is true for every code someone adds...) but I do not understand the
it is useful only for FindStat users so it is not useful. Anyway, this
not going to happen in the near future, I mostly see this as long term
objective and it is only my opinion.

The short term perspectives is for us FindStat people to build a FindStat
API that would allow query from external websites. It does not seem that
complicated, it's mostly a question of taking the time to do it. Once we
have that, we can start thinking of more integration, local computation,
etc.


2014-05-29 22:35 GMT+02:00 John Cremona john.crem...@gmail.com:

 On 29 May 2014 21:02, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com wrote:
   BUT: this would result in code in Sage that is not useful purely
   within Sage. And there are people, loud people, that say there should
   not be such code in Sage.

 I do not know what is code in Sage that is not useful purely within Sage.

 John

 
  I can hear your frustration ... In similar situations, it helped me to
  keep in mind that loud people are not always representative. Of course
  the difficulty is to fetch the opinion from the others.
 
 
  Ahahahahahahah. Well, only including in Sage code that is useful to a
 Sage
  user or other developpers does not seem that far-fetched. I still do
 not
  see what the problem is with that.
 
  Err Well, assuming the obvious : that I am the loud people you
  mention.
 
  Nathann
 
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