Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Matthew Rennekamp]

>
> > i guess we already discussed about that on 
> > 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/sage-devel/$20Organisation$20of$20online$20$3A$20survey$20of$20developers|sort:relevance/sage-devel/vc2lXsjDwYU/2DswQOyNAQAJ


Did we reach a conclusion? The plan I outlined still holds.
 

> > If you can not refrain to remove pages, please *rename* them instead of 
> > deleting and reecreate an alternative, so that we can follow their 
> > history.
>

At this point, I figure that if there are needed pages, then there wouldn't 
be duplicates. Most pages had another name that allowed MoinMoin to suggest 
a similarly named page (ex. /LinearAlgebraSEP 
 doesn't exist after I renamed 
it to SEP/LinearAlgebra , but 
works perfectly fine in suggesting.) I rely on that feature to help users 
try to find the designated page - that would have exactly the same content. 
It's better for anyone who would stumble across any system page to find 
what's right. From above, I don't think that there are any major links to 
these smaller pages that couldn't be solved from a simple search (assuming 
familiarity with MoinMoin).
 

> > Also, a big grid table is definitely *not* a way to organize a wiki, it 
> is 
> > way too rigid,

 
The terrible excuse here is that it's a work in progress. It still *is a 
wiki*, so it's the best way I could think of that was supported that shows 
what pages' purposes were (or are, if updated often).

and the table markup makes it hard to modify for most 
> > users. A wiki is not a spreadsheet. It is better to organize 
> semantically, 
> > by thematics, with sections, not a single grid mixing everything with 
> > flags.
>

It'd be nice to have something like a map to show connections, but I don't 
think we can embed JS, or create some database. It's also hard to keep up 
with changes, so if someone changes the style and tone of content, any 
multilevel listing (or listing whatever the different types of pages) would 
need to change accordingly. We're not the Arch Wiki, so I shouldn't assume 
that this is important enough (shown in the discussion above) that it *would 
continue to be accurate*. My categorization is confusing, but I don't know 
what should be done that would please the greatest number of people.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Thierry]

To clarify:

i do appreciate that you take care of the organisation of the wiki, in
particular that you group packages pages within a dedicated category, and
even make a table out of their list. However, mixing every page in a
single table in the welcome page of the wiki makes the navigation (and
modification) very hard. For example, what is the relation between
"GroupeUtilisateursBordeaux", "freebsd" and "padics" ?

Ciao,
Thierry



On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 04:29:17PM +0100, Thierry wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 04:33:40PM -0700, Matthew Rennekamp wrote:
> > Hi all.
> > I've messed around with the wiki, too. Check out the expanded frontpage 
> > that I've taken to. Thoughts on that while I continue with it?
> > I also have started removing some of the specific SPKG pages in order to 
> > keep it all on one wiki.sagemath.org/spkg page. That would help with trying 
> > to keep it all on Trac.
> > 
> > Feedback?
> 
> i guess we already discussed about that on
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/sage-devel/$20Organisation$20of$20online$20$3A$20survey$20of$20developers|sort:relevance/sage-devel/vc2lXsjDwYU/2DswQOyNAQAJ
> 
> If you can not refrain to remove pages, please *rename* them instead of
> deleting and reecreate an alternative, so that we can follow their
> history.
> 
> Also, a big grid table is definitely *not* a way to organize a wiki, it is
> way too rigid, and the table markup makes it hard to modify for most
> users. A wiki is not a spreadsheet. It is better to organize semantically,
> by thematics, with sections, not a single grid mixing everything with
> flags.
> 
> Ciao,
> Thierry
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "sage-devel" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Thierry]

Hi,

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 04:33:40PM -0700, Matthew Rennekamp wrote:
> Hi all.
> I've messed around with the wiki, too. Check out the expanded frontpage 
> that I've taken to. Thoughts on that while I continue with it?
> I also have started removing some of the specific SPKG pages in order to 
> keep it all on one wiki.sagemath.org/spkg page. That would help with trying 
> to keep it all on Trac.
> 
> Feedback?

i guess we already discussed about that on
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/sage-devel/$20Organisation$20of$20online$20$3A$20survey$20of$20developers|sort:relevance/sage-devel/vc2lXsjDwYU/2DswQOyNAQAJ

If you can not refrain to remove pages, please *rename* them instead of
deleting and reecreate an alternative, so that we can follow their
history.

Also, a big grid table is definitely *not* a way to organize a wiki, it is
way too rigid, and the table markup makes it hard to modify for most
users. A wiki is not a spreadsheet. It is better to organize semantically,
by thematics, with sections, not a single grid mixing everything with
flags.

Ciao,
Thierry



> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 02:59:52PM +0200, Johan S. H. Rosenkilde wrote:
> > +1.  If anything wiki.sagemath.org should redirect to
> > trac.sagemath.org/wiki since Trac already provides a (generally nicer,
> > more powerful) wiki that integrates better with development ;)
> 
> +1 to merging wiki.sagemath.org into trac.sagemath.org/wiki.
> 
> Right now there's tendency for duplicated information, and the current
> way wiki.sagemath.org is used, it's almost exclusively for developers
> anyway. Something integrated with trac would do that much better, and it
> would be exactly the same syntax as trac comments.

Even better, you have a choice of syntax with trac; I often switch to
ReST there :-)

Cheers,
Nicolas
--
Nicolas M. Thiéry "Isil" 
http://Nicolas.Thiery.name/

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Johan S . H . Rosenkilde]

> +1.  If anything wiki.sagemath.org should redirect to
> trac.sagemath.org/wiki since Trac already provides a (generally nicer,
> more powerful) wiki that integrates better with development ;)

+1 to merging wiki.sagemath.org into trac.sagemath.org/wiki.

Right now there's tendency for duplicated information, and the current
way wiki.sagemath.org is used, it's almost exclusively for developers
anyway. Something integrated with trac would do that much better, and it
would be exactly the same syntax as trac comments.

Best,
Johan

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Erik Bray]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Bruno Grenet  wrote:
> I am in favor of keeping the wiki on wiki.sagemath.org. My two-cents is that
> we should either completely switch Sage's development to github (including
> the developers' wiki, etc.) or stay on foo.sagemath.org for various values
> of foo. It would be kind of (or super) weird to only have the wiki on
> github. As long as there is no consensus to move the development to github,
> the wiki should stay where it is. (Several developers, among whom some very
> prolific ones, have explicitly expressed concerns against moving to github.)

+1.  If anything wiki.sagemath.org should redirect to
trac.sagemath.org/wiki since Trac already provides a (generally nicer,
more powerful) wiki that integrates better with development ;)

> As for my personal opinion, I prefer the current situation than moving to
> github. First because I really like the current system of review and so on
> that is on trac (so I do not see any need to move to github), second due to
> the recent thread about ethical evaluation of repository services.

GitHub's issue tracker is abysmal for a project this size and complexity.

> Le 26/08/2016 à 23:02, William Stein a écrit :
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Johan S. H. Rosenkilde
>>  wrote:

 Would you have any interest in moving the wiki
 to https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki ?
>>>
>>> What would be the advantage of doing so?
>>
>> - We don't have to worry about hosting it ourselves.
>> - It's hosted on a DDOS hardened globally distributed CDN instead of
>> one single VM.
>> - More standard markdown instead of a the moin moin wiki custom format.
>> - Revision history stored in git; you can easily clone the whole wiki,
>> work on it offline, and push it.
>> - Better antispammer measure and account management handled by Github.
>>
>>> What do the Sage developers even want to use the wiki for? Apart from
>>> SageDays organisation.
>>
>> - listing sage days
>> - there's a nice list of interact examples:
>> https://wiki.sagemath.org/interact
>>
>> Look at https://wiki.sagemath.org/RecentChanges to see what people
>> *do* use the wiki for.  E.g., there's been a lot of activity on a page
>> "Coding Theory in Sage: A collection of ideas and long-term goals for
>> Coding Theory in Sage, and the people interested." today by several
>> people.
>>
>> There's even a recently modified page here
>> https://wiki.sagemath.org/Debate/Collective%20infrastructure%20management
>> that has a bunch of arguments *against* moving hosting of sage-related
>> services from universities to third party cloud hosting services
>> (Github, Google, etc.).
>>
>>> At SageDays75, we just created (or rewrote)
>>> https://wiki.sagemath.org/Coding_Theory sub-page and propose it to be a
>>> place to discuss long-term goals for coding theory in Sage. Let's see
>>> how it works out.
>>
>> That's definitely a very good use of this wiki (or any other sage one).
>>
>>   -- William
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Bruno Grenet]

I am in favor of keeping the wiki on wiki.sagemath.org. My two-cents is 
that we should either completely switch Sage's development to github 
(including the developers' wiki, etc.) or stay on foo.sagemath.org for 
various values of foo. It would be kind of (or super) weird to only have 
the wiki on github. As long as there is no consensus to move the 
development to github, the wiki should stay where it is. (Several 
developers, among whom some very prolific ones, have explicitly 
expressed concerns against moving to github.)


As for my personal opinion, I prefer the current situation than moving 
to github. First because I really like the current system of review and 
so on that is on trac (so I do not see any need to move to github), 
second due to the recent thread about ethical evaluation of repository 
services.


Best,
Bruno



Le 26/08/2016 à 23:02, William Stein a écrit :

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Johan S. H. Rosenkilde
 wrote:

Would you have any interest in moving the wiki
to https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki ?

What would be the advantage of doing so?

- We don't have to worry about hosting it ourselves.
- It's hosted on a DDOS hardened globally distributed CDN instead of
one single VM.
- More standard markdown instead of a the moin moin wiki custom format.
- Revision history stored in git; you can easily clone the whole wiki,
work on it offline, and push it.
- Better antispammer measure and account management handled by Github.


What do the Sage developers even want to use the wiki for? Apart from
SageDays organisation.

- listing sage days
- there's a nice list of interact examples: https://wiki.sagemath.org/interact

Look at https://wiki.sagemath.org/RecentChanges to see what people
*do* use the wiki for.  E.g., there's been a lot of activity on a page
"Coding Theory in Sage: A collection of ideas and long-term goals for
Coding Theory in Sage, and the people interested." today by several
people.

There's even a recently modified page here
https://wiki.sagemath.org/Debate/Collective%20infrastructure%20management
that has a bunch of arguments *against* moving hosting of sage-related
services from universities to third party cloud hosting services
(Github, Google, etc.).


At SageDays75, we just created (or rewrote)
https://wiki.sagemath.org/Coding_Theory sub-page and propose it to be a
place to discuss long-term goals for coding theory in Sage. Let's see
how it works out.

That's definitely a very good use of this wiki (or any other sage one).

  -- William



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Johan S . H . Rosenkilde]

>> What do the Sage developers even want to use the wiki for? Apart from
>> SageDays organisation.
>
> - listing sage days
> - there's a nice list of interact examples: https://wiki.sagemath.org/interact
>
> Look at https://wiki.sagemath.org/RecentChanges to see what people
> *do* use the wiki for.  E.g., there's been a lot of activity on a page
> "Coding Theory in Sage: A collection of ideas and long-term goals for
> Coding Theory in Sage, and the people interested." today by several
> people.

Yes, I just wrote that page and some participants on SD75 added some
stuff.

Apart from this, and the Debate/Collective Infrastructure Management
page, changes are +1 year old, and growing rapidly older.

>> At SageDays75, we just created (or rewrote)
>> https://wiki.sagemath.org/Coding_Theory sub-page and propose it to be a
>> place to discuss long-term goals for coding theory in Sage. Let's see
>> how it works out.
>
> That's definitely a very good use of this wiki (or any other sage one).

Indeed, I hope people will be interested in keeping it alive.

Best,
Johan

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[William Stein]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Johan S. H. Rosenkilde
 wrote:
>> Would you have any interest in moving the wiki
>> to https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki ?
>
> What would be the advantage of doing so?

- We don't have to worry about hosting it ourselves.
- It's hosted on a DDOS hardened globally distributed CDN instead of
one single VM.
- More standard markdown instead of a the moin moin wiki custom format.
- Revision history stored in git; you can easily clone the whole wiki,
work on it offline, and push it.
- Better antispammer measure and account management handled by Github.

> What do the Sage developers even want to use the wiki for? Apart from
> SageDays organisation.

- listing sage days
- there's a nice list of interact examples: https://wiki.sagemath.org/interact

Look at https://wiki.sagemath.org/RecentChanges to see what people
*do* use the wiki for.  E.g., there's been a lot of activity on a page
"Coding Theory in Sage: A collection of ideas and long-term goals for
Coding Theory in Sage, and the people interested." today by several
people.

There's even a recently modified page here
https://wiki.sagemath.org/Debate/Collective%20infrastructure%20management
that has a bunch of arguments *against* moving hosting of sage-related
services from universities to third party cloud hosting services
(Github, Google, etc.).

> At SageDays75, we just created (or rewrote)
> https://wiki.sagemath.org/Coding_Theory sub-page and propose it to be a
> place to discuss long-term goals for coding theory in Sage. Let's see
> how it works out.

That's definitely a very good use of this wiki (or any other sage one).

 -- William

-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Sage Wiki

[Johan S . H . Rosenkilde]

> Would you have any interest in moving the wiki 
> to https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki ? 

What would be the advantage of doing so?

What do the Sage developers even want to use the wiki for? Apart from
SageDays organisation.

At SageDays75, we just created (or rewrote)
https://wiki.sagemath.org/Coding_Theory sub-page and propose it to be a
place to discuss long-term goals for coding theory in Sage. Let's see
how it works out.

Best,
Johan


help writes:

> Would you have any interest in moving the wiki 
> to https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki ? 
>
> On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 9:12:01 AM UTC-7, Johan S. R. Nielsen wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone, 
>>
>> I just edited the front page of http://wiki.sagemath.com so that it 
>> appears less embarrassingly out of date. I restructured it so that it is 
>> more clear that it is a place for certain developer organization (mostly 
>> SageDays), so that it now less pretends to be a very lively place with 
>> frequent updates everywhere (or rather, so that it is honest about where 
>> it is out-of-date). 
>>
>> I stuffed links to lots of sub-pages under headlines marked out-of-date. 
>> If you disagree or update one of those sub-pages, please just put the 
>> link under some appropriate headline not marked out-of-date :-) 
>>
>> Best, 
>> Johan 
>>


-- 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"sage-devel" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.