Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Derek Hoy wrote: Bob said: When I was in high school, we lived at Fort Riley, Kansas, an infantry post. They played bugle calls several (15?) times a day. Of course they played retreat to take down the flag, which was preceeded by firing the howitzer. Every night. That was about 3 blocks from our quarters. They fire the howitzer when they raise the flag too (6AM?). Ritual. What more can you ask for? Sleep? Mountains? :-) Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
This is from a note to a CD by the Household Division (they do the Changing of the Guard stuff I think): - The beating or sounding of Retreat has its origins in the sixteenth century When I was in high school, we lived at Fort Riley, Kansas, an infantry post. They played bugle calls several (15?) times a day. Of course they played retreat to take down the flag, which was preceeded by firing the howitzer. Every night. That was about 3 blocks from our quarters. They fire the howitzer when they raise the flag too (6AM?). Ritual. What more can you ask for? I think I'll put on my kilt now, and march around the house beating pots... Bob South Carolina Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Stuart wrote: The retreat march is not, as Stan suggests, necessarily a march time tune which would be marched to - as often as not it was played as part of the evening ritual in the military camp as day duties gave way to night ones. It was not linked to the military manoeuvre of retreating in or from battle but was linked to the idea of refuge and safety in the camp. Some contemporary players, assuming that the retreat march is to be marched to, crank it up to ... This is from a note to a CD by the Household Division (they do the Changing of the Guard stuff I think): - The beating or sounding of Retreat has its origins in the sixteenth century when it was possibly the same ceremony as Tattoo, 'ye retrete to beat att 9 att night and take it from ye garde'. A book of 1598 says 'ye Drumme Major will advertise (by beate of Drum) those require for watch'. In the seventeenth century the Drummers are 'to beate the Retreat through the large street and to be answered by all the dummerrs of ye Gardes'. Nowadays the ceremony, usually at sunset, denotes the end of the working day and heralds the mounting of the Guard. - There you are then. My most memorable retreat was at Gleneagles during the 1977 Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers, when I watched the retreat being beaten with Pierre Trudeau. Derek Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Jack Campin wrote: I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about rattlers--which are sometimes noted as retreats? Morgan's Rattler also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong. Morgan Rattler is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march was invented. I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary verse from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline I lathered her up with my Morgan Rattler, which kinda suggests he didn't have 3-wheelers in mind either. Where do you find these rattler tunes? === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html See Morgan Rattler and variant Jackson's Bouner Burger in the Irish tune index on my website for many copies of each. Thomas Hudson's song Morgan Rattler was written more than 40 years after the tune appeared. Bruce Olson Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or just A href=http://www.erols.com/olsonw; Click /a Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about rattlers--which are sometimes noted as retreats? Morgan's Rattler also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong. Morgan Rattler is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march was invented. I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary verse from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline I lathered her up with my Morgan Rattler, which kinda suggests he didn't have 3-wheelers in mind either. Where do you find these rattler tunes? === http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/ === Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
I find your observations interesting, especially in that a march usually listed as a retreat like Battle of the Somme seems to want-- at least for me-- to move along a bit. I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about rattlers--which are sometimes noted as retreats? Morgan's Rattler also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong. CliffA The retreat march is not, as Stan suggests, necessarily a march time tune which would be marched to - as often as not it was played as part of the evening ritual in the military camp as day duties gave way to night ones. It was not linked to the military manoeuvre of retreating in or from battle but was linked to the idea of refuge and safety in the camp. Some contemporary players, assuming that the retreat march is to be marched to, crank it up to a kind of swaggering, kilt swinging, tempo which robs the airs of the inherent melancholy quality which many possess. I hope this helps illustrate my earlier point. Stuart Eydmann __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Re Stuart Eydmann's recent e-mail on the subject: I am very interested in the work you refer to which was done by Dr. Peter Cooke... to explain the internal rhythmic variation in traditional players which gives the music its particular lift, lit and drive. Is it available? Re the issue of traditional characteristics or the Scottish Idiom as Hunter describes it ; the following may be of interest to you and others. The quote from Hunter in your e-mail Snap bowing is one of the most fundamental strokes in strathspey playing, continues and mastery of it is essential if the player is to capture the rhythmic drive inherent in the music. In my experience not a single Cape Breton fiddler plays or ever did play strathspeys this way. In fact I believe that it is virtually impossible to play strathspeys this way at step dance tempo, [176 to 184] but you'd be in for a royal fight if you concluded that CB fiddlers don't play them with rhythmic drive. It is also interesting to note that Hunter's description of the Scots snap on the same page and the up-driven bow on the following page describe precisely how CB fiddlers execute this bowing. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Re Stuart Eydmann's recent e-mail on the subject: I am very interested in the work you refer to which was done by Dr. Peter Cooke... to explain the internal rhythmic variation in traditional players which gives the music its particular lift, lit and drive. Is it available? Alexander, we have the Peter Cooke book here and you could borrow it. Stuart Eydmann wrote: The grace note has echoes of the birl discussion of some months ago. Non traditional players are often thrown by the presence of grace notes on the written page and I think that is what is being referred to here. In most circumstances in fast music a fiddle grace note is fitted in without any real or apparent robbing of time from the melody note which follows - if it is overdone then it just does not sound right. I think it was CPE Bach who wrote on the true way to perform gracenotes (presumably in keyboard music) which classical musicians often drag up to defend their case. Classical musicians see the grace note and immediately strive to give it an emphasis and value which it does not deserve or require. I have to disagree here because in Cape Breton fiddling there is much use of emphasized grace notes with real note value. Or, I should say that one hears this type of grace note often anyway. David and I notate them as grace notes with no slashes when we transcribe from someone's playing. I'm not sure how many Cape Breton fiddlers actually *read* grace notes this way though -- this would have to be investigated. I suspect that when reading music, Cape Breton fiddlers usually ignore most of the extra stuff and substitute their own expressions. However, I bet that if a written grace note fits the Cape Breton style and is placed in the type of situation in which these long grace notes are used, then a Cape Breton fiddler might well interprete it that way. Some Cape Breton fiddlers play even the quick type of double grace notes more slowly than others, almost in a triplet rhythm. - Kate D. -- Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
All this stuff about Tempi is sort of interesting. What is right, is not for me as interesting as WHY certain tempi work. Human Physiology dosn't vary that much (Dinner plates are the same size all over the world). Understanding tempi is also about understanding its function. Marches should be played at marching speed. Watch people going across the Millenium bridge. They are all going at more or less the same speed. As you play pretend you are marching home after you have escaped a bloody, painful death in a battle you were forced to go to avoid your house being burned. If you are only a few miles from your loved ones, and you see the hills of home you'll start to swing into a retreat march, and my won't the tune go, and be just right You are playing at a dance and are not sure of the tempo. Dance it through in your head and pick up the pulse. This of course depends on some familliarity with the dance and and being a no bad dancer. So if you want to be a dance musician, first learn to dance. Why are reels good at between 108\116 BPM? Moderate areobic exercise, which allows a moderately fat, moderately middle aged man, to chat up a moderately beautiful partner, while getting all the appropriate endorphins to kick in to keep you going all night, produces a heart rate of 108/116BPM. So in theory a good band is so sensitve to the audience and the audience is so sensitive to the band that a commomn pulse builds in the hall, and we all get HIGH. Please consult a whirling dervish to confirm AY STAN -- Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Several people have commented on the subject of tempi so I thought I'd also get my two cents worth in. I have been metronoming Cape Breton fiddlers periodically for more that 40 years. My interest was initially in attempting to learn why it was that among the best fiddlers, there were some who had reputations as great dance players, [for both step and community square dances] and others considered equally skilled did not. The difference between them was truly remarkable; at the former's dances there was a rush to get on the dance floor to the extent that space was sometimes not available. I thought it must be tempi, but while tempi is very important, it did not explain the differences as in at least some cases, the tempi was the same. Some have what I call rhythmic drive and some don't. I'm still searching for the answer. Here are the results of my metronome work in Cape Breton: Jigs: 120 to126 Reels [in 2/4] see below 108 to116, interestingly, identical to tempi recommended by Alastair Hardy in The Caledonian Companion HornpipesSame tempi as reels when played as part of a square dance medley, otherwise a little slower. Strathspeys176 to 184 for step dance strathspeys, and many different tempi for the many different other types. There is a tendency among this generation of CB players to play at a faster tempi. There is a related subject which interests me and which was discussed by someone, Nigel Gatherer, I believe and that is time signature. Some reels are written 2/4 and others 4/4. To my ear the difference between strathspeys and reels is not just tempi but also pulse. J. Murdock Henderson in Flowers of Scottish Melody says Strathspeys are written in common time, designated by C or 4/4 while reels are in 2/4 time. Writing reels, contra dances and hornpipes in common time gives a wrong idea of pulse,... I'm told that this is done in other music including American pop and resulted from the fact that in older times when music had to be written by hand, it was less expensive in terms of hours of work and quantities of ink to write 2/4 music in 4/4; for example reels written in 2/4 required two beams for the four note [1/16th] note clusters versus one if written in 4/4. At any rate it has confused the issue of designating tempi as has already been discussed and does as Henderson says give a wrong idea of pulse Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Steve Wyrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: how does a devisor decide if a dance should be a jig or a reel? Are there figures that work better for one or the other or is it just a matter of personal preference? I suppose this is really a question for the strathspey list! I suppose so (and feel free to re-ask it there), but in a nutshell there are no hard-and-fast rules of the form »poussette always goes with reel time«. There are various observations that one could make which may either be »tradition« or pure coincidence, but there are lots of dances that disprove any rule that one could postulate from those observations. Let's discuss this on Strathspey, where some of the big names in dance devising (such as Iain Boyd) might be tempted to throw in their 2¢. Just one thing: If you could ask Hugh Foss (who of course is no longer with us), he would tell you that to devise a dance, you pick a tune first and then come up with suitable movements that fit the twists, turns and rhythms of the tune. Try to get hold of Foss's booklet, _Roll back the carpet_; there are some very interesting little essays in there that try to explore the connections between some dances and their music. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your buggestions are welcome. -- Richard Stallman, *GNU Emacs Manual* Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
On Wednesday 06 February 2002 06:06, Nigel Gatherer wrote: STRATHSPEYS Jeffrey Friedman says they dance Strathspeys at 60. I'm not a dancer, but musically that seems VERY slow to me [3]. JMM states the limits as between 160 and 188. That upper limit seems fast to me, but nothing compared to the 202 reached in some Cape Breton recordings [2]. Now to Jimmy Shand and his Band; listening to a few Shand Strathspeys gives measurements of 130, 133 139, 139, 141 and 142; this seems right to me as a musician, but I can't speak for a dancer. Alastair Hardie's count of 126-138 seems to concur. snip [1] Flowers of Scottish Melody, 1935 [2] ...as notated in 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton' Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg [3] Jeffrey - are you sure it's not half-note measurements you mean? Nigel - Jeff was referring to Scottish Country Dance strathspeys, not Cape Breton. For SCD aren't the strathspeys supposed to be counted two to the bar, rather than four to the bar as in Cape Breton? I *can* tell you that if you tap your foot for four downbeats the SCD teacher is almost certain to tell you you're playing it wrong because it's not what they need. Ian, Anselm?? Wendy Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
David Francis wrote: ...Jimmy Shand was renowned for his ability to hit the right tempo and keep it ticking along...Beware the early Shand recordings though. They go at an unbelievable lick. One theory is that this was to accommodate the limited recording space available on the old shellac records. Or maybe it was the wildness of youth I think the latter, Dave. I remember reading that it was at a particular point in his career, after the Beltona recordings I think, that Jimmy decided to study tempi and made a big effort to get it right from then on. Or you could blame earlier recording artists such as the Wyper Brothers; it's fairly obvious that Shand listened to their 78s a great deal. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Wendy Galovich wrote: Nigel - Jeff was referring to Scottish Country Dance strathspeys, not Cape Breton. For SCD aren't the strathspeys supposed to be counted two to the bar, rather than four to the bar as in Cape Breton? That's what I'm guessing, Wendy. Jeffrey specifically said quarter notes, however, which is why I asked. I think as you said we need Anselm or David South to come in with their thoughts now. As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat remains the same, doesn't it? On a final note, here's J Murdoch Henderson again: 1. To calculate from the metronome beat of an air...the number of seconds required to render any given part of it: multiply by 60 the number of beats in the part played, then divide by the metronome beat number. e.g. Time required to play once through a strathspey at 160 is 64x60/160=24 seconds. 2. To calculate the metronome beat of an air from the number of seconds required to play any given part of it: multiply by 60 the number of beats in the part played, then divide by the number of seconds required to play that part. e.g. Metronome beat of a reel played once through in 16 seconds is 32x60/16=120... You can picture it, can't you, a couple of traditional musicians with pencil and paper, scratching their heads, saying Ach Archie, Ah dinna see hoo we can dae a Glasgow Highlanders, the numbers jist dinna mak sense. Havers, Dod. Ye've timesed it insteed o' takin' awa the number ye first thocht o'. Hing it a', jist tap yer bliddy foot, man, an' be done wi' it! -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [scots-l] Tempi
Hi Wendy, Nigel, On Wednesday 06 February 2002 06:06, Nigel Gatherer wrote: STRATHSPEYS Jeffrey Friedman says they dance Strathspeys at 60. I'm not a dancer, but musically that seems VERY slow to me [3]. JMM states the limits as between 160 and 188. That upper limit seems fast to me, but nothing compared to the 202 reached in some Cape Breton recordings [2]. Now to Jimmy Shand and his Band; listening to a few Shand Strathspeys gives measurements of 130, 133 139, 139, 141 and 142; this seems right to me as a musician, but I can't speak for a dancer. Alastair Hardie's count of 126-138 seems to concur. snip [1] Flowers of Scottish Melody, 1935 [2] ...as notated in 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton' Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg [3] Jeffrey - are you sure it's not half-note measurements you mean? Nigel - Jeff was referring to Scottish Country Dance strathspeys, not Cape Breton. For SCD aren't the strathspeys supposed to be counted two to the bar, rather than four to the bar as in Cape Breton? I *can* tell you that if you tap your foot for four downbeats the SCD teacher is almost certain to tell you you're playing it wrong because it's not what they need. Ian, Anselm?? Hmm. I can't really speak from a musician's point of view here. As a dancer, the beats are 1, 2, 3, and, which corresponds to step, close, step, pull through. The first and third beats are definitely the key ones in the step, and I can see how counting in minims might help get the emphasis right. RSCDS recommendations for strathspeys (sudden memories returning) are 112-116; [1] I suspect if I was to dance to music played at 126-138 I'd feel like I was running (though 112 and below is probably starting to get laboured and wobbly...depending on the band, of course...) Ian [1] The Manual of Scottish Country Dancing, RSCDS -- IndigoVision Ltd http://www.indigovision.com/ The Edinburgh Technopole, Bush Loan, Edinburgh, EH26 0PJ Tel: [+44] (0)131 475 7234 Fax: [+44] (0)131 475 7201 Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.scottishdance.net Feed the world: http://www.thehungersite.com/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Nigel Gatherer wrote: | David Francis wrote: | ...Jimmy Shand was renowned for his ability to hit the right tempo | and keep it ticking along...Beware the early Shand recordings though. | They go at an unbelievable lick. One theory is that this was to | accommodate the limited recording space available on the old shellac | records. Or maybe it was the wildness of youth | | I think the latter, Dave. I remember reading that it was at a | particular point in his career, after the Beltona recordings I think, | that Jimmy decided to study tempi and made a big effort to get it right | from then on. Or you could blame earlier recording artists such as the | Wyper Brothers; it's fairly obvious that Shand listened to their 78s a | great deal. Something else to take into consideration is the sloppiness of the recording industry with regards to tempos. I've heard re-releases of old recordings whose tempo differs by 10% or more. This is a big difference to dancers and musicians, but not to recording companies. It explains some of the strange keys that you find on recordings. Sometimes you can ask the original artists what key they played it in and adjust your variable-speed player to get that key. Otherwise, you really don't know. (You do have variable speed record and cassette and CD players, don't you? ;-) Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Nigel Gatherer wrote: As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat remains the same, doesn't it? Actually, it does matter a bit. As Ian has pointed out (referring to strathspey steps, but it applies to most of the steps used in dancing to reels and jigs as well), a step has four bits, roughly step-close-step-and; and where they fit on the music is different for reel and for jig. (It's right that the step bits come on what you refer to as the beats if I'm understanding properly; but the other bits matter.) I believe that's the main reason that jig music is preferred for teaching the skip-change-of-step, and reel for the pas de basque. In the end, both steps have to be done to either kind of music, and _should_ be slightly different depending on the music. Enjoying the discussion, Peter McClure Winnipeg, MB Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Nigel Gatherer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think as you said we need Anselm or David South to come in with their thoughts now. SCD strathspeys are at 116 »ticks« per minute or so if you let your metronome tick four times per bar. (I'm desperately trying to avoid the issue of »beats« to the bar -- the SCD teacher in me says that the strathspey step is really four beats rather than two. Marches have two beats per bar but not strathspeys, and with the strathspey there is a big emphasis on the 1 and a not-so-big one on the 3). 32 bars (that is, 128 »ticks«) of strathspey time at SCD speed take somewhat more than a minute or so, so you can take it from there. 116 is really quite zippy already -- except for Glasgow Highlanders, which is played a good bit faster, and some other dances involving Highland setting steps, such as »Schiehallion« or the »Garry Strathspey«. As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat remains the same, doesn't it? Nope. Most SCD dance steps are composed of four separate »actions« (such as »hop-step-close-step« or »step-beat-beat-hold«). Simplifying things somewhat for the sake of argument, in reel time, these actions take place on beats 1, 2, 3, 4 of a bar (assuming 4/4, common or cut-common time), and in jig time on beats 1, 3, 4, and 6. The RSCDS sells a nice book called »Any good tune«, by Muriel A. Johnstone (who as some of you may be aware of is the doyenne of RSCDS-style SCD music) which is targeted at beginning SCD musicians and contains a nice selection of well-known and useful country dance tunes, arranged for piano. The introduction to that book gives various hints about playing SCD music, including tempo specifications, and it says: »Tempos vary greatly according to different situations and different preferences. A metronome marking lying between half note = 104 and half note = 112 for reel time quarter note = 104 and quarter note = 116 for strathspey time dotted quarter = 104 and dotted quarter = 112 for jig time would cover most dancers' needs from the expert demonstration dancer to young children learning; from a formal ball to a barn dance. Tempo is not something that should become an obsession since music that has powerful rhythm and good lift swings along and brings the dancers with it, even at a relaxed speed. [...] It is important to remember that a VERY SLIGHT [Muriel's emphasis] alteration in the speed of the music can make an enormous difference to the dancers. [...] If you notice people struggling to balance and dancing ahead of the music then the speed is too slow. If the dancers are repeatedly late for the next figure of the dance and look rushed and ungainly with a loss of any accuracy in the steps, then your music is too fast.« Mind you that this is, more or less, the official RSCDS position. You will find very popular dance bands who take their strathspeys rather a lot quicker than the suggested 116, and I have a recording of another very famous and popular band whose rendition of the 8x32 »strathspey«, The Duchess Tree, clocks in at something like 9'20, which is *way* too slow even from the RSCDS perspective. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that, as life is action and passion, it is required of a man that he should share the passion and action of his time at peril of being judged not to have lived.-- Oliver Wendell Holmes Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Anselm Lingnau wrote: (Nigel, I think, wrote) As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat remains the same, doesn't it? Nope. Most SCD dance steps are composed of four separate »actions« (such as »hop-step-close-step« or »step-beat-beat-hold«). Simplifying things somewhat for the sake of argument, in reel time, these actions take place on beats 1, 2, 3, 4 of a bar (assuming 4/4, common or cut-common time), and in jig time on beats 1, 3, 4, and 6. Right, that's what I was trying to get at. The difference is subtle enough that some dancers don't notice it until it's pointed out to them (even though they may be unconsciously making the adjustment to the different rhythm). Anselm (or anyone else), this is probably a dumb question, but having never devised a dance myself, how does a devisor decide if a dance should be a jig or a reel? Are there figures that work better for one or the other or is it just a matter of personal preference? I suppose this is really a question for the strathspey list! -Steve -- Steve Wyrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Steve Nigel, I can only speak from my very limited knowledge and experience of having taken a lesson from Susie Petrov and having played a sort of rhythm guitar for a number of Scottish Country Dances, here in the non-highlands of the Connecticut River Valley. The dance Strathspey speed does seem to be in the low 60 BPM, and that is the metronome setting for 1/4 notes. It does seem slow, but the dance seems to work at that speed. We usually play with one of Susie's band mates in Local Hero, Norb Spencer on accordion. He is mentioned in her book on page 31. The dancers really enjoy dancing to a live band, rather than recordings, and provide us with a real bounty of homemade breads and cookies. Just my own limited experience. Jeff - Original Message - From: Nigel Gatherer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 4:04 AM Subject: Re: [scots-l] Tempi Steve Wyrick wrote: ...I remember a discussion on the STRATHSPEY mailing list in the last couple years to the effect that even within recent memory the tempo of the Strathspey has slowed downSome people said they recalled that in the mid-1900s the strathspey tempo was more like what we now do Glasgow Highlanders at, ie around 60-66 BPM. (regarding Hardie's tempo for the Strathspey it seems to be double what I'm used to. Do you think he's counting differently?) Mmm. This is where I get all mixed up. Let's see. (Whips out a metronome)... (For x/4 tunes, one click of the metronome equals a crotchet, or one quarter note. Perhaps you're counting it as a minim or half-note?) At 66, a Strathspey sounds to me like a slow Strathspey (or solo Strathspey as Skinner would call it. At 126 it sounds faster but not blistering. Looking at 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton', there are many speeds given there for Strathspeys from 118 up to 202 and beyond. I hope this is useful. Yes, Steve, very useful, but my head is spinning and I'm lost! I think the message is that it depends and there's no real answer. I was hoping that someone with definite opinions would come and say This is it and no other thing is right. I suppose I could do worse and set the metronome on some Jimmy Shand recordings, since he was very particular about tempi. Thanks Steve, and Kate Dunlay for assisting me. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Steve Wyrick wrote: ...I remember a discussion on the STRATHSPEY mailing list in the last couple years to the effect that even within recent memory the tempo of the Strathspey has slowed downSome people said they recalled that in the mid-1900s the strathspey tempo was more like what we now do Glasgow Highlanders at, ie around 60-66 BPM. (regarding Hardie's tempo for the Strathspey it seems to be double what I'm used to. Do you think he's counting differently?) Mmm. This is where I get all mixed up. Let's see. (Whips out a metronome)... (For x/4 tunes, one click of the metronome equals a crotchet, or one quarter note. Perhaps you're counting it as a minim or half-note?) At 66, a Strathspey sounds to me like a slow Strathspey (or solo Strathspey as Skinner would call it. At 126 it sounds faster but not blistering. Looking at 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton', there are many speeds given there for Strathspeys from 118 up to 202 and beyond. I hope this is useful. Yes, Steve, very useful, but my head is spinning and I'm lost! I think the message is that it depends and there's no real answer. I was hoping that someone with definite opinions would come and say This is it and no other thing is right. I suppose I could do worse and set the metronome on some Jimmy Shand recordings, since he was very particular about tempi. Thanks Steve, and Kate Dunlay for assisting me. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [scots-l] Tempi
Hi Nigel, et al, I'm writing an article about the speed of Scottish tunes using my own research based on recordings of dance bands, although I've just noticed that I didn't note any Strathspeys. I've always been under the impression that a Strathspey would be played slower than a reel, but looking at 'The Caledonian Companion', Alastair Hardie gives reels at 120-128, Most reels, however, will benefit from the less breathless tempo of 108-116 He gives the Strathspey tempo as between 126-138, considerably faster than the reel. He has marches at 92-100, even-rhythmed hornpipes at 104-112, and uneven-rhythmed hornpipes at 69-76, which does seem rather slow to me. I'd like to hear your opinions. I'm under the impression (without doing much research) that strathspeys have slowed down somewhat over the years. Hugh Thurston, in Scotland's Dances, quotes Major Edward Topham, in 1775, writing as follows: Another of the national dances is a kind of quick minuet, or what the Scotch call a 'Straspae.' We in England are said to walk a minuet: this is gallopping a minuet. Nothing of the minuet is preserved except the figure; the step and time most resemble an hornpipe--and I leave you to dwell upon the picture of a gentleman full-dressed and a lady in a hoop dancing an hornpipe before a large assembly. I think he wouldn't have made this observation if he'd encountered the strathspey at the tempos we dance it nowadays. I remember a discussion on the STRATHSPEY mailing list in the last couple years to the effect that even within recent memory the tempo of the Strathspey has slowed down. Writers attributed it mostly to the graying of the SCD population but it may also have to do with the trend toward more gracefulness in the step. Some people said they recalled that in the mid-1900s the strathspey tempo was more like what we now do Glasgow Highlanders at, ie around 60-66 BPM. (regarding Hardie's tempo for the Strathspey it seems to be double what I'm used to. Do you think he's counting differently?) At any rate, regarding current practice, Barbara McOwen (a great fiddler from San Francisco always in demand for RSCDS functions) writing in 1989 gave these tempi: Reel and jig: 112-120 Strathspey: 60-66; strathspeys with highland setting may require 66 or faster, official Highland Fling tempo is 68. Suzie Petrov (an excellent pianist from Pennsylvania who plays at a lot of RSCDS functions) writing in 2001 gives tempi for the RSCDS versions of these tunes as follows: quick time tunes (jigs, reels hornpipes): 110-112 Strathspeys: 60 Speaking as a Scottish Country Dancer, I would expect quick-time tunes (reels and jigs, i.e. 4/4 2/4 played quickly, and 6/8) to take approx 4'30 for 8x32 bars. Strathspeys would be 8'00 approx for 8x32 bars (where a bar is sufficient music to dance a single travelling step - often equivalent to 1 bar of music, but sometimes 2 bars of music = 1 dancer's bar; this seems only to occur with 2/4 tunes in my experience). The way we dance strathspey nowadays, we would be hard put to get the step in at the speed I understand Jimmy Shand used to play (not that I've ever heard any of his recordings myself). So if you want to give modern tempos, you're better working to that speed (which works out at Barbara/Susie's speeds). Of course, if you want historical info, or info for music played for listening, that's a different matter. Alan Paterson's DanceData database includes info on over 5000 dance music tracks, and includes the time taken for many of these tracks. See http://www.scottap.com/dancedata/ for more info and to download. On the terminology side, SCDers do not make many distinctions at all. The average SCDer is hard put to distinguish between a reel (simple time) and a jig (6/8) - subtleties such as hornpipes are beyond them. In slow time, it's just strathspeys, even when they are slow airs or schottisches (though they are always simple time - they can tell a waltz, although it's not part of the standard repertoire). HTH, Ian -- IndigoVision Ltd http://www.indigovision.com/ The Edinburgh Technopole, Bush Loan, Edinburgh, EH26 0PJ Tel: [+44] (0)131 475 7234 Fax: [+44] (0)131 475 7201 Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.scottishdance.net Feed the world: http://www.thehungersite.com/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Tempi
I guess the tempo question will depend to a large extent on who you're playing for, the nature of the event, your own taste and preference (and your ability to play at speed, of course). If you're playing for Cape Breton solo or square dances then the reel tempo seems to be somewhere around 108 - 112 (echoing Alastair Hardie's suggestion), while strathspey tempos can be anywhere from 88 to not far short of reel tempo. For country dancing these strathspey tempos would be way too fast, while the reel tempos would be too slow. In concert there are no rules, of course. Aly Bain, Johnny and Phil Cunningham, and any number of young desperados delight in fast tempos, while someone like Buddy MacMaster doesn't stray too far on the concert stage from the tempos he would use for playing a dance. Jimmy Shand was renowned for his ability to hit the right tempo and keep it ticking along, leading to the often heard assertion that you could dance all night to his music without tiring. Beware the early Shand recordings though. They go at an unbelievable lick. One theory is that this was to accommodate the limited recording space available on the old shellac records. Or maybe it was the wildness of youth David Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Ian Brockbank wrote: | On the terminology side, SCDers do not make many distinctions at all. | The average SCDer is hard put to distinguish between a reel (simple time) | and a jig (6/8) - subtleties such as hornpipes are beyond them. In slow | time, it's just strathspeys, even when they are slow airs or schottisches | (though they are always simple time - they can tell a waltz, although it's | not part of the standard repertoire). How true. I've seen numerous cases of dance teachers trying to explain the difference between a jig and a reel, and after listening to their fuzzy, mystical attempts, it becomes clear that they don't have a clue. OTOH, some of them understand the differences very well, including the march/reel/hornpipe distinction and how airs differ from strathspeys. I know a few dance leaders who are clear when they want hornpipe tunes rather than reels, mostly because it's natural to play hornpipes a bit slower (104-108 or so) so you can get the semi-dotted rhythm right. This is is desirable for some dances that are otherwise too hectic. Similarly, some teachers will request a real strathspey for teaching a dance that usually uses an air, because the recommended air doesn't have a strong enough rhythm and is confusing to novice dancers. After they've learned the dance, the recommended air may then be requested. As for waltzes in the standard repertoire, you can't get much more standard than the RSCDS booklets, which include: Book 4 # 8 Waltz Country Dance Book 12 # 7 The Yellow Haired Laddie Book 19 # 5 Tweedside These are the only ones that I know about, and I'd have to agree that they aren't common dances. (And the tune for The Yellow Haired Laddie is actually labelled minuet rather than waltz, though I'd predict that the Renaissance Dance crowd would object that the tune isn't a minuet at all. ;-) Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
John Chambers wrote: OTOH, some of them understand the differences very well, including the march/reel/hornpipe distinction and how airs differ from strathspeys. I know a few dance leaders who are clear when they want hornpipe tunes rather than reels, mostly because it's natural to play hornpipes a bit slower (104-108 or so) so you can get the semi-dotted rhythm right. This is is desirable for some dances that are otherwise too hectic. I still don't like the way that SCD'ers like strathspeys played. :-) It sounds good with certain strathspeys, but it ruins other ones. It robs them of their drive. Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Toby wrote: | John Chambers wrote: | OTOH, some of them understand the differences very well, including | the march/reel/hornpipe distinction and how airs differ from | strathspeys. I know a few dance leaders who are clear when they want | hornpipe tunes rather than reels, mostly because it's natural to play | hornpipes a bit slower (104-108 or so) so you can get the semi-dotted | rhythm right. This is is desirable for some dances that are otherwise | too hectic. | | I still don't like the way that SCD'ers like strathspeys played. :-) It | sounds good with certain strathspeys, but it ruins other ones. It robs | them of their drive. Yeah, but that's nothing compared to what is done to airs. I mean, ruining a good, slow, meandering air by playing it in strict tempo with neat 8-br phrases -- Jeez! ;-) But no matter what, when playing for dancing, ya does what the dance requires, and make the best of it. You can always play the tune right in your living room or for a listening audience. I might also mention that a few dance leaders are clear about wanting shottish tunes for some strathspeys. One that's common around here is the Glasgow Highlanders. The feel is different, and the dances that want shottishes should also usually be a bit faster than strathspeys. Of course, most of the dancers don't have a clue about the difference. But some of them will start doing Highland step-dance things during such dances if the tune has the right feel. We had an advanced SCD workshop here a few weeks ago that went over just this topic. The approach was Here's a cool thing to do when appropriate. It doesn't interfere with the dance, and it's fun if you can do it. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
John Chambers wrote: Toby wrote: | John Chambers wrote: | OTOH, some of them understand the differences very well, including | the march/reel/hornpipe distinction and how airs differ from | strathspeys. I know a few dance leaders who are clear when they want | hornpipe tunes rather than reels, mostly because it's natural to play | hornpipes a bit slower (104-108 or so) so you can get the semi-dotted | rhythm right. This is is desirable for some dances that are otherwise | too hectic. | | I still don't like the way that SCD'ers like strathspeys played. :-) It | sounds good with certain strathspeys, but it ruins other ones. It robs | them of their drive. Yeah, but that's nothing compared to what is done to airs. I mean, ruining a good, slow, meandering air by playing it in strict tempo with neat 8-br phrases -- Jeez! ;-) Oh yes, I forgot about that. Alot of airs need creative tempos, in order to really hit home. But no matter what, when playing for dancing, ya does what the dance requires, and make the best of it. You can always play the tune right in your living room or for a listening audience. Yes, it's always better in your living room. Usually when just a few people are around. Wow, did you hear that? I often think about how I would like to have a permanent tape recorder in the living rooms of some of my musical heroes. Imagine what treasures are being lost! Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (And the tune for The Yellow Haired Laddie is actually labelled minuet rather than waltz, though I'd predict that the Renaissance Dance crowd would object that the tune isn't a minuet at all. ;-) It's not a waltz, either. When that tune was new the waltz hadn't been invented yet. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] See, the story goes on and on and on. It's like a soap opera, only this soap opera is real, and has changed our world. -- Robert X. Cringely, on Microsoft, Netscape, AOL and the history of the Net Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Anselm writes: | John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | (And the tune for The Yellow Haired Laddie | is actually labelled minuet rather than waltz, though I'd predict | that the Renaissance Dance crowd would object that the tune isn't a | minuet at all. ;-) | | It's not a waltz, either. When that tune was new the waltz hadn't been | invented yet. True. But then, people routinely play a lot of 17th-century tunes as waltzes. Hereabouts, several of O'Carolan's tunes are considered waltzes by a lot of the Contra and SCD gang. The Yellow Haired Laddie tune does work for a waltz, while it doesn't really fit a minuet very well. The RSCDS booklet treats it as a waltz-time tune, despite their labelling it as a minuet. The really curious one of the dances I listed is Tweedside, which has 6-bar phrases. The two tunes in the RSCDS booklet have different phrasing. The first tune has parts made up of two 3-bar phrases, while the second has three two-bar phrases. There are a very small number of RSCDS dances that have phrase lengths other than 8 bars. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [scots-l] Tempi
-Original Message- From: Ian Brockbank [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:53:26 - To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [scots-l] Tempi Hi Nigel, et al, On the terminology side, SCDers do not make many distinctions at all. The average SCDer is hard put to distinguish between a reel (simple time) and a jig (6/8) - subtleties such as hornpipes are beyond them. In slow time, it's just strathspeys, even when they are slow airs or schottisches (though they are always simple time - they can tell a waltz, although it's not part of the standard repertoire). HTH, Ian I started dancing after playing this music for a number of years and was surprised to find that a lot of people couldn't tell the difference between a jig and a reel; it was obvious to me! I agree that in SCD the only real distinction many dancers make is between fast and slow dances; however since the steps don't really change between the fast dances, one is basically dancing the same dance whether it's a reel, hornpipe or jig so there's little reason for the average dancer to make any finer distinction (yes the timing is slightly different but I find a lot of dancers make the adjustment without realizing they're doing it). The other thing that I think contributes to this is that a lot of teachers don't have the luxury of live music in classes and have to rely on recorded music. When they teach they may end up using whatever they have on hand that has the right number of bars and repetitions; if we end up dancing a reel to jig music, or a strathspey to an air, oh w! ell! -Steve -- Steve Wyrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Tempi
I'm writing an article about the speed of Scottish tunes using my own research based on recordings of dance bands, although I've just noticed that I didn't note any Strathspeys. I've always been under the impression that a Strathspey would be played slower than a reel, but looking at 'The Caledonian Companion', Alastair Hardie gives reels at 120-128, Most reels, however, will benefit from the less breathless tempo of 108-116 He gives the Strathspey tempo as between 126-138, considerably faster than the reel. He has marches at 92-100, even-rhythmed hornpipes at 104-112, and uneven-rhythmed hornpipes at 69-76, which does seem rather slow to me. I'd like to hear your opinions. For your interest, here are my findings: Jigs: 118-126 Marches: 108-116 Reels: 118-126 Hornpipes: 86-88 I have to say I did this survey some years ago, and I haven't verified it lately. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Nigel Gatherer wrote: I'm writing an article about the speed of Scottish tunes using my own research based on recordings of dance bands, although I've just noticed that I didn't note any Strathspeys. I've always been under the impression that a Strathspey would be played slower than a reel, but looking at 'The Caledonian Companion', Alastair Hardie gives reels at 120-128, Most reels, however, will benefit from the less breathless tempo of 108-116 He gives the Strathspey tempo as between 126-138, considerably faster than the reel. He has marches at 92-100, even-rhythmed hornpipes at 104-112, and uneven-rhythmed hornpipes at 69-76, which does seem rather slow to me. I'd like to hear your opinions. I'm under the impression (without doing much research) that strathspeys have slowed down somewhat over the years. Hugh Thurston, in Scotland's Dances, quotes Major Edward Topham, in 1775, writing as follows: Another of the national dances is a kind of quick minuet, or what the Scotch call a 'Straspae.' We in England are said to walk a minuet: this is gallopping a minuet. Nothing of the minuet is preserved except the figure; the step and time most resemble an hornpipe--and I leave you to dwell upon the picture of a gentleman full-dressed and a lady in a hoop dancing an hornpipe before a large assembly. I think he wouldn't have made this observation if he'd encountered the strathspey at the tempos we dance it nowadays. I remember a discussion on the STRATHSPEY mailing list in the last couple years to the effect that even within recent memory the tempo of the Strathspey has slowed down. Writers attributed it mostly to the graying of the SCD population but it may also have to do with the trend toward more gracefulness in the step. Some people said they recalled that in the mid-1900s the strathspey tempo was more like what we now do Glasgow Highlanders at, ie around 60-66 BPM. (regarding Hardie's tempo for the Strathspey it seems to be double what I'm used to. Do you think he's counting differently?) At any rate, regarding current practice, Barbara McOwen (a great fiddler from San Francisco always in demand for RSCDS functions) writing in 1989 gave these tempi: Reel and jig: 112-120 Strathspey: 60-66; strathspeys with highland setting may require 66 or faster, official Highland Fling tempo is 68. Suzie Petrov (an excellent pianist from Pennsylvania who plays at a lot of RSCDS functions) writing in 2001 gives tempi for the RSCDS versions of these tunes as follows: quick time tunes (jigs, reels hornpipes): 110-112 Strathspeys: 60 (As an aside, as far as I can tell the Society doesn't differentiate between hornpipes and reels, using them almost interchangeably as tunes for reels (the dance). As I understand it, the Hornpipe as danced historically, requires a much slower tempo due to the complexity of the steps.) I hope this is useful. -Steve -- Steve Wyrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Steve Wyrick wrote: Some people said they recalled that in the mid-1900s the strathspey tempo was more like what we now do Glasgow Highlanders at, ie around 60-66 BPM. Oops, I meant 66-68 -Steve -- Steve Wyrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
