Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On 5/17/09 9:10 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: If you take a country that is wholly Christian in ethos, lighting up an entire street with a string of lights, playing loud devotional music and pulling around a chariot with an idol of Ganesha accompanied by incredibly loud drums at 10 PM would offend enough sensibities to make it a law and order issue. The government of the land will have to take a stand and take one side and say whether this is acceptable or not as per the existing laws. Again, this sort of public act is not allowed in most islamic countries. Should it be allowed in India or not? Would a complaint that such a public act of devotion by Hindus in a public space offends Muslim or Christian sensibilities be a valid reason for judging such acts in india? If such acts are allowed, is India secular? My opinion is offending anyone's sensibilities is not an inviolable human right. By that manner, non-vegetarians eating near some vegetarians offend some vegetarian's sensibilities. On the other hand, anyone inciting anybody else, or dehumanising some people is a threat to secularism and should be stopped. I think a similar issue cropped up in France[1]. Singapore is the other extreme where Muslims technically live in an Islamic nation, have Islamic rules. Anyone who is not a Muslim is prohibited from marrying one / all food products have Halal certifications / court cases are judged on Sharia laws if all parties are Muslim / Muslim kids mostly study in Madrassas / All major Islamic holidays are public holidays. All this is possible only because of a strong government which allows such deep divisions in society and yet function efficiently. Of course, any act in the interest of secularism will probably be projected by those adversely affected by it, as being in the interest of their opponents. I doubt India will ever get down to implementing such rules. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3325285.stm - divya -- I blog at http://nimbupani.com/blog
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
AFAIK, Singapore is NOT a Muslim nation. Perhaps you meant Malaysia. It is in Malaysia that Muslims can't marry non-Muslims. My cousin, a Malaysian Tamilian had to move to Singapore with his Malay Muslim girlfriend to marry her - where it's perfectly legal. Singapore follows Chinese, Western, Tamil and Muslim festivals. I think a similar issue cropped up in France[1]. Singapore is the other extreme where Muslims technically live in an Islamic nation, have Islamic rules. Anyone who is not a Muslim is prohibited from marrying one / all food products have Halal certifications / court cases are judged on Sharia laws if all parties are Muslim / Muslim kids mostly study in Madrassas / All major Islamic holidays are public holidays. All this is possible only because of a strong government which allows such deep divisions in society and yet function efficiently.
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On 5/17/09 11:19 PM, Mahesh Murthy mahesh.mur...@gmail.com wrote: AFAIK, Singapore is NOT a Muslim nation. Perhaps you meant Malaysia. It is in Malaysia that Muslims can't marry non-Muslims. My cousin, a Malaysian Tamilian had to move to Singapore with his Malay Muslim girlfriend to marry her - where it's perfectly legal. Singapore follows Chinese, Western, Tamil and Muslim festivals. This is not true anymore. I got married in Singapore, and I distinctly remember there is a separate Muslim Registrar of Marriages for muslims. Here is the FAQ from Registrar of Marriages: http://app.customerfeedback.mcys.gov.sg/romm_faqmain.asp?strFaqSysid=2004119 14231strItemChoice=2004119134037strSubItemChoice=20041214145255action=SHO WTOPICSm_strTopicSysID=20041214145548#200411914231 Your cousin might have gotten married before the Women's charter came into effect. I do know singapore follows all festivals, but it gives a lot of freedom to practice your religion which goes above and beyond what any other non-islamic country provides to muslims. - divya -- I blog at http://nimbupani.com/blog
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On 5/17/09 11:45 PM, Divya Manian divya.man...@gmail.com wrote: Your cousin might have gotten married before the Women's charter came into effect. I do know singapore follows all festivals, but it gives a lot of freedom to practice your religion which goes above and beyond what any other non-islamic country provides to muslims. When I said your religion, I meant any religion and not pointing fingers (sorry if it came across that way)!
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Sun, 17/5/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote: From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 11:46 PM Before someone bashes me up, I wish to correct a small typo here: Replace all BJP with Congress and the same comments will apply to them as well easily keeping in view the Sikh riots. Replace all BJP with Congress, Hindutva with pesudo-secularism and the same comments will apply to them as well easily keeping in view the *anti-Sikh* riots. -- Bharat | http://twitter.com/shettyb On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Mahesh Murthy mahesh.mur...@gmail.com wrote: Somehow, every Modi and BJP / Hindutva plank apologist seems to believe that it's okay to order the killing (and subsequent hush-up) of thousands of Muslims as long as you're pro-development, especially if that tag comes from bribing the Tatas and Ambanis with free land and zero taxes to side-step their conscience and set up factories in Gujarat. Am waiting for the time when the average Gujarati will realise that they've so far been voting the Nazis into power repeatedly. Somebody - maybe us - has to keep telling them. Replace all BJP with Congress and the same comments will apply to them as well easily keeping in view the Sikh riots. May be somebody - may be me and others - will need to tell the average Indian that they are voting for a party that thrives on pesudo-secularism, and statements like Nitish Kumar is communal when taking support from criminal and psuedo-secular parties like SP, RJD, JMM, JD(S), repeatedly since Indira-Rajeev times and is responsible for some mismanagement and poverty that lingers in our country. -- Bharat | http://twitter.com/shettyb So? What difference do you imagine that made? Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Mon, 18/5/09, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote: From: Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 11:14 AM 2009/5/18 Chetan N che...@nagster.org: 1. I don't believe what you've just said 2. By whose standards? Hoo boy. Déjà vu all over again. Where's Atul? Ram Is this the same Chetan from CiX? I can't believe it. In any self-respecting society, 'steps' would have been taken. Is it possible to bribe Bharat Shetty to ship him out to Gujarat? in a closed cattle-truck, with the usual bathing instructions? Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Sun, 17/5/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: From: ss cybers...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Sunday, 17 May, 2009, 7:33 PM On Sunday 17 May 2009 3:53:08 pm Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: Are you joking? Or do you actually believe that? Raising hindutva card - hell, any number of people will do that .. Shiv will probably point you to a bunch of harmless people (and I have very dear relatives who are card carrying bjp members). It takes a very special kind of person indeed to countenance a pogrom. And that's what the gujarat riots were, plain and simple. It is a political viewpoint that has existed at least from the time Gandhi was shot. Unfortunately in discussions such as these the expression raising the Hindutva card is used exacty in the sense of the act of raising a yellow card or a red card in a soccer match, after which the marked person who brings up the topic is branded an offender of a sort and a supporter of a murderer. For this reason, discussion progress no further in allowing someone (In this case Bharat Shetty) to put a viewpoint across. In other words, once a person is said to have raised the Hindutva card he must not be allowed to proceed further on pain of being dubbed a supporter of genocide and a cheerful bystander while pregnant Muslim women have their child ripped out of their belly by a frothing Hindu fanatic. All that this does is to stop the presenting of a viewpoint, but it does not alter the fact that there are, out in the community, certain people and certain red lines that cooperate to commit horrendous acts of murder and destruction. A frank exchange of views is avoided by the calling of the card. There are two aspects to Modi and he and his supporters lose no opportunity to thumb their noses at people who keep getting worked up about his continued success in Gujarat. What is missed in this rhetoric is the rubbish that the so called secular parties are up to when it comes to Muslims. Hindus who claim to be secular and pointedly shiver with horror at Modis communalism are no better at doing anything for Muslims in India than Hindutvadis - and may actually be a lot worse than Modi. Whatever problems the community of Hindus may have - an overly exaggerated horror at Hindutva represents only ignorant lip service to Muslims. All the secular parties treat Muslims as a bloc or as a vote bloc. They do not really spend as much thought or effort as they ought to in improving Muslim neighborhoods and genuinely believe that Muslims are happy in their madrassas. Check this article http://www.deccanherald.com/content/1496/muslims-entitled-full-fledged-schools.html 'Muslims are entitled to full-fledged schools, not madarsas' Saturday, May 09, 2009, 1:30 [IST] Muslims are entitled to full-fledged schools, not Madarsas. The government engages two teachers with minimum pay for Madarsas and claims that it has taken care of minority children. But the government is doing it with a purpose, as engaging Urdu teachers in full-fledged schools or setting up more schools in Muslim-dominated areas will be far more expensive than just doling out a few thousand rupees for the Madarsas. The government should not spend a single penny for the madarsas and let them be as they are. Instead there should be more schools where a Muslim boy can sit with his Hindu classmate and learn what every other child of his age is learning elsewhere. Only then this exclusion, this ghettoisation of the Muslims will come to an end. Secular Hindus who huff and puff and rant in horror at Hindutva are as much of a problem as Hindutva when it comes to the status of Muslims in India. But they somehow seem to imagine that if they express their horror at Hindutva sufficiently vehemently they are absolved of all responsibility of understanding what is actually happening. That understanding often never comes when discussions are scotched with an outporing of the memories of horror of some event or the other in what I see as an exaggerated sense of Hindu embrarrassment and apology about an event that they were not personally responsible. This is the precise behavior which has been dubbed as pseudo-secularism Why not sit back and listen to a person expressing a viewpoint without making a vigorous attempt at connecting him with murder? shiv Shiv, Be aware that this may appear to be a drive-by pot-shot, because I am unable to access the 'Net for very long hours; this means that after I sit down and think of what I am trying to say and put it down and so on, it's time to move to the next place I am due, and therefore brings in a delay of hours. No discourtesy intended. The disjointed nature of my response is also partly due to
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Mon, 18/5/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: From: ss cybers...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 7:30 AM On Monday 18 May 2009 3:21:13 am Badri Natarajan wrote: Shiv, can you tell us what you think of Modi? Badri - I don't think about Modi at all. All my thoughts about Modi are based around what others say about him. But when I listen to others I have the option of giving equal weightage to two or more sides of a story. When you look at Modi through this sort of lens the jury is out about Modi, if you like. Modi's initial rise to national prominence was based around the riots. But he seems to have been an effective administrator after that - so clearly there are at least two sides. He is the darling boy of one side and the Hitler of another side. When only one side of a story is given a lot of prominence it smacks of a political agenda that is utilizing the saleability of horror to smear someone and obfuscate issues while debate is scotched. In India the people who like to describe themselves as secular have been given a bomb proof shelter to hide their own mistakes by events such as the Ahmedabad riots and that event is being milked to the fullest extent without any hint of introspection about what relationship the state of india has developed with people of different faiths under the guise of secularism. My torn shirt - open fly analogy works very well here. The so called secular parties have a gala time dissing the open fly of Modi's Hindutva while all discussion of their own torn shirt is suppressed. This is a national mistake. In that sense the Modi issue is a veil behind which other issues are cheerfully and mindlessly suppressed in public debate. shiv Shiv, I hate late night bus journeys at my age, and a certain degree of acidity in my views may be attributed to that, if it helps. I was depressed to read your two sides business; the aiding and encouragement of rioting and assault and battery by a constitutionally sworn authority does not balance out against his ability to run trains on time. Not in the 40s, not now, not ever. No amount of administrative efficiency can excuse a betrayal of the constitution, or a betrayal of innocent victims of mob outrage, or a cynical stone-wall defence against investigation. I like to describe myself as secular. Please tell me what use I have made of the bomb-proof shelter that is the opportunity to hide my own mistakes. This is a very bad way of expressing your indignation about political parties that sport this label to appeal to the gullible. It cannot apply, the way you have applied it, to individuals. It cannot apply as a catch-all defence. When you wish to have people be accurate in their use of descriptions and their use of words, there is a duty that you have to practise what you preach. Regarding your torn shirt/open fly analogy, surely you are aware that a significant section of people, myself included, condemn in the strongest terms the hypocrisy, the cant of the Congress party, and their ineffable cheek in permitting Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar to go about free, and even give them party tickets. I put to you that as a fierce opponent of both types of ethnic massacre, there is nothing hypocritical in my condemnation of the Gujarat massacres, and that you can use this only against a specific party and specific individuals from that party and from elsewhere who have actually demonstrated the hypocrisy that you have rightly pilloried. The point? Not everybody falls within your classification, and it does not seem logical to use arguments which depend on these categories as universal categories. Now it would be interesting for you to state those other issues which are being suppressed under the Modi smoke-screen. Please go ahead and list them, and see how secularism or its absence affects those issues. Or our responses to those issues. IG Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: Aren't exit polls supposed to ask voters who they voted for as opposed to their perception of good governance? Isnt asking that generally considered a no no !? Asking if people voted at all would be more acceptable, in light of the low voter turnout in Mumbai and MH. This time the EVM's had introduced the NOTA/protest vote option very quietly as part of the ballot process but my random unscientific conversations across voters from different strata of society tells me that the voter(s) has noticed the NOTA option but yet thinks that is not an effective way of cleaning the candidate system, instead preferring to not vote at all if they dont like a particular candidate which is highly surprising (and a bit of a let-down) considering that the ballot[0] is the culmination of lone voices into a collective roar in any democracy. [0] http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1255476 -- .
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: no no, not another broken thread !!? -- ., who was tempted but erased the (bo) from the no to avoid bashInG ^_^
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:45 AM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: Aren't exit polls supposed to ask voters who they voted for as opposed to their perception of good governance? Isnt asking that generally considered a no no !? Really? I was not aware of such a restriction. This may be an India thing. In the US exit polls can and do ask voters who they voted for. See: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls.main/how.to.read.html Wikipedia also seems to concur: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_poll Unlike an opinion poll, which asks whom the voter plans to vote for or some similar formulation, an exit poll asks whom the voter actually voted for. S. -- You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel. -- Homer J. Simpson
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Mon, 18/5/09, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: From: . svaks...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 11:19 PM On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: no no, not another broken thread !!? -- ., who was tempted but erased the (bo) from the no to avoid bashInG ^_^ Huh? What'd I do? Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: no no, not another broken thread !!? -- ., who was tempted but erased the (bo) from the no to avoid bashInG ^_^ Huh? What'd I do? borken thread -- .
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:31 AM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: Huh? What'd I do? borken thread It looks like bonobashi's MUA - Yahoo Mail Classic - is the culprit. It does not seem to add the 'In-Reply-To' header to his replies. I did a couple of tests with my Yahoo account just now and it looks like the new AJAXy Yahoo Mail adds the header. The old Classic version not only does not add the header, but also inserts seemingly random invisible characters (=0A=0AS.=0A=0A=0A---, etc.) into the body of the reply. Thaths -- You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel. -- Homer J. Simpson
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
Thaths [18/05/09 11:54 -0700]: a couple of tests with my Yahoo account just now and it looks like the new AJAXy Yahoo Mail adds the header. The old Classic version not only does not add the header, but also inserts seemingly random invisible characters (=0A=0AS.=0A=0A=0A---, etc.) into the body of the reply. That second part is what's called quoted-printable encoding. And the first part - yes, classic has been known to occasionally break in that way. In any case, could some kind soul steer this back to the topic that Shiv drifted it from (a discussion of his polemics from another master polemicist .. a shiv vs IG thread is always fun) rather than get distracted by the arcana of MUAs and smtp headers?
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
Heh, Atul bashing hasn't stopped at all, has it? Regards Chetan che...@pobox.com On May 18, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram wrote: 2009/5/18 Chetan N che...@nagster.org: 1. I don't believe what you've just said 2. By whose standards? Hoo boy. Déjà vu all over again. Where's Atul? Ram
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
Hi IG The very same. I don't know Mr. Shetty, but cattle trucks to Gujarat are stopped at the border. Now wouldn't you argue that the Center failed miserably in this case? And what about the people who set fire to the train in the first place? Oh, and there are many other cliches- for instance, why do people still refer to the Afghan mountain ranges as the Hindu-Kush? Of course, it offends my secular sensibilities. It should probably be renamed as Taliban-Kush, Regards Chetan On May 18, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Bonobashi wrote: --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote: From: Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 11:14 AM 2009/5/18 Chetan N che...@nagster.org: 1. I don't believe what you've just said 2. By whose standards? Hoo boy. Déjà vu all over again. Where's Atul? Ram Is this the same Chetan from CiX? I can't believe it. In any self- respecting society, 'steps' would have been taken. Is it possible to bribe Bharat Shetty to ship him out to Gujarat? in a closed cattle- truck, with the usual bathing instructions? Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: could some kind soul steer this back to the topic that Shiv drifted it from You mean threads on silk actually drift BACK to original topics? Deepa.
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Monday 18 May 2009 11:36:44 am Divya Manian wrote: On the other hand, anyone inciting anybody else, or dehumanising some people is a threat to secularism and should be stopped. I do not disagree Divya - but you know I have laid a trap (or I will now proceed to lay the trap) Is there any cut off date before which inciting and dehumanizing can be declared valid. After the cut off date people doing that can be declared a threat to secularism. The reason why I call this a trap is because secularism means no religion. Religion must be kept out. If you try to make some exceptions for religion and say it's OK to have a little bit of religion, (because people respect religion and all religions are good, sarva dharma sambhava) then it is not difficult to dig up religious literature that ostensibly dehumanizes and incites. shiv
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Tue, 19/5/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: From: ss cybers...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 7:14 AM On Monday 18 May 2009 11:36:44 am Divya Manian wrote: On the other hand, anyone inciting anybody else, or dehumanising some people is a threat to secularism and should be stopped. I do not disagree Divya - but you know I have laid a trap (or I will now proceed to lay the trap) Is there any cut off date before which inciting and dehumanizing can be declared valid. After the cut off date people doing that can be declared a threat to secularism. The reason why I call this a trap is because secularism means no religion. Religion must be kept out. If you try to make some exceptions for religion and say it's OK to have a little bit of religion, (because people respect religion and all religions are good, sarva dharma sambhava) then it is not difficult to dig up religious literature that ostensibly dehumanizes and incites. shiv I don't understand this. This is precisely the point, that the rule of law, a civil law, not a law coming straight from the lips of a hairy old man (or a hairy young man, for that matter), is what we need. What we do not need is a phony situation where our religious proclivities are concealed under a peculiarly Indian formulation, totally worthless and intellectually decrepit, which insinuates the thought that accepting all religions is equivalent to accepting no religion. That white, in effect, is equivalent to black. This is the absolute depth to which we have sunk. And thanks to Mr. Gandhi's batty views on the subject, and our irrational reverence for cranky old men (Gandhi, not Advani), we have been carrying this cross - and the Congress along with it - around our collective necks for 61 years. If people really want to get rid of pseudo-secularism, which is what this is, they have to stand up first and acknowledge that minority bashing does not neutralise minority pandering, that both are equal evils and both should be driven out tarred and feathered. In saying all this, I have probably landed in whatever subtle Brahminical Manuvadi trap Shiv has designed, but to hell with it. Shiv, can we have a time-out on this one? A ghost from the past has reared his head, and there's some cattle-truck polishing that may become urgently necessary. This is an emergency. That can't be allowed to roam about free. I still don't understand the cut-off date business. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Tue, 19/5/09, Chetan Nagendra che...@pobox.com wrote: From: Chetan Nagendra che...@pobox.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 5:46 AM Hi IG The very same. I don't know Mr. Shetty, but cattle trucks to Gujarat are stopped at the border. Now wouldn't you argue that the Center failed miserably in this case? And what about the people who set fire to the train in the first place? Oh, and there are many other cliches- for instance, why do people still refer to the Afghan mountain ranges as the Hindu-Kush? Of course, it offends my secular sensibilities. It should probably be renamed as Taliban-Kush, Regards Chetan On May 18, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Bonobashi wrote: --- On Mon, 18/5/09, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote: From: Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Monday, 18 May, 2009, 11:14 AM 2009/5/18 Chetan N che...@nagster.org: 1. I don't believe what you've just said 2. By whose standards? Hoo boy. Déjà vu all over again. Where's Atul? Ram Is this the same Chetan from CiX? I can't believe it. In any self-respecting society, 'steps' would have been taken. Is it possible to bribe Bharat Shetty to ship him out to Gujarat? in a closed cattle-truck, with the usual bathing instructions? Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/ I'm coming for you. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:15 PM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: This time the EVM's had introduced the NOTA/protest vote option very quietly as part of the ballot process but my random unscientific conversations across voters from different strata of society tells me that the voter(s) has noticed the NOTA option but yet thinks that is not an effective way of cleaning the candidate system, instead preferring to not vote at all if they dont like a particular candidate which is highly surprising (and a bit of a let-down) considering that the ballot[0] is the culmination of lone voices into a collective roar in any democracy. There was? I actually looked and couldn't find a NOTA option. Was this roll out only in some places. I voted in Bombay (NW, I think) where there were 19 candidates of whom I recogonised only one. -gabin -- Casey Stengel - There comes a time in every man's life, and I've had plenty of them. - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/c/casey_stengel.html
[silk] Silk and Gmail
Does anyone else see a unraveled thread now, [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? and Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?? Is this IG's fault, as usual? Ram
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
Sure, you spotted him first, but I'm first in queue. --- On Tue, 19/5/09, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote: From: Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 8:19 AM 2009/5/19 Chetan Nagendra che...@pobox.com: Heh, Atul bashing hasn't stopped at all, has it? Who's bashing Atul, tempting as that prospect is? It's you. Ram Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Silk and Gmail
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote: Is this IG's fault, as usual? Yes. Thaths -- You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel. -- Homer J. Simpson
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
ss [19/05/09 07:14 +0530]: On Monday 18 May 2009 11:36:44 am Divya Manian wrote: On the other hand, anyone inciting anybody else, or dehumanising some people is a threat to secularism and should be stopped. I do not disagree Divya - but you know I have laid a trap (or I will now proceed to lay the trap) Is there any cut off date before which inciting and dehumanizing can be declared valid. After the cut off date people doing that can be declared a threat to secularism. In legal parlance, a statute of limitations. There's none for murder as far as I am aware. Or for genocide for that matter.
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Monday 18 May 2009 10:14:56 pm Bonobashi wrote: there is nothing hypocritical in my condemnation of the Gujarat massacres, and that you can use this only against a specific party and specific individuals from that party and from elsewhere who have actually demonstrated the hypocrisy that you have rightly pilloried. The point? Not everybody falls within your classification, and it does not seem logical to use arguments which depend on these categories as universal categories. Now it would be interesting for you to state those other issues which are being suppressed under the Modi smoke-screen. Please go ahead and list them, and see how secularism or its absence affects those issues. Or our responses to those issues. IG I will try and address the following issues in my reply (and will hopefully answer your questions as well). 1) I will try and illustrate why the use of what I term as a torn shirt versus open fly argument leads inexorably into a slippery slope where anything can be connected up with anything else leading to irreconcilable argument without the ability to see some important issues. 2) I will also try and show why the views you have expressed, while being valid, still count as pseudosecular in their ability to obfuscate and suppress certain opinions. 3) How the suppression of certain inconvenient viewpoints has a negative effect on Indian society today. if you felt personally targeted by my comments, I must admit that my comments (while not targeted at you personallly) were meant to hurt anyone who counters what is seen as a Hindutva argument with a reminder that Modi represents genocide. i don't think any one of us on this list needs a reminder that Modi stands accused of representing genocide. I don't think anyone on this list is a supporter or abettor of murder. Let me merely point out how you have fallen into the standard Hindutva trap by raising the Modi is a killer card as soon as your Hindutva detection meter sounds a warning. But you will have to listen to a fundamntalist Hindu viewpoint that I will state here because this is exactly what is said (and let me point out that is is another egregious example of torn shirt versus open fly - where one fact does not make another irrelevant or false) Al Beruni has documented the murder of Hindus in the past. There are records of other massacres of Hindus including that of 500 brahmins in Melkote. Despite this, I will explain why would it be wrong for a Hindutvadi to call all Muslims murderers on the basis of documented history. No matter who committed murder in the past there are two incontrovertible facts: 1) All Muslims are not murderers and do not support or abet murder 2) For all the murder that was commited by some people, a lot of innocent people are being smeared merely for representing a different viewpoint Now apply that to Hindutva and BJP 1) All Hindutvadis and BJP supporters are not murderers and do not support or abet murder 2) For all the murders commited by Modi and his goons, a lot of innocent people are being smeared merely for representing a different viewpoint. The pseudosecular argument is as follows: You represent Hindutva. Modi represents Hindutva. Modi is a murderer, and therefore your opinions coincide with that of a murderer. No decent human would agree wth you. You need to shut up The counter argument made by Hindutvadis is similar: Islam is a murderous religion. Muslim opinions represent a murderous religion. And your support to them represents support of murder and Hindu genocide. You do not represent real secularism when you fail to criticize genocide by Muslims in the past, while you criticize murder by Hindus more recently. You are pseudosecular. You need to shut up yourself This is the slippery slope that you are getting into when you use Modis guilt to suppress an opinion expressed by somenone else - in this case Bharat Shetty. How does all this impact Indian society? How is pseudosecularism as damaging to society as a misrepresentation of all Muslims as fundamentalists? You and me and everyone else on this list, as decent, secular people claim to fully understand the angst of religious minorities in India such as Muslims and Christians. But what does not get expressed so often is that the majority community of Hindus have their own reasons for dissatisfaction and angst. In a secular and democratic country such as India, if we must go to great lengths to reduce the angst and suffering of the religious minorities' it also means that we have to be willing to recognize and assuage the angst of the majority too, which exists, whether one wants to admit it or not. There is a problem and the Hindu majority are making sure that the problem translates into action whether or not decent, secular Indians allow them to have their say. I will try and explain how Hindu majority angst has a practical impact on the treatment of Muslims in
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
Shiv, I haven't read through completely, and am about to climb onto yet another vermin-laden mofussil bus. Just to say that I most emphatically do not think you are targeting me or anyone else personally. If anything, the boot is on the other foot; I have in the past, and in my last two posts, taken some liberties which I might not have taken in the case of absolute strangers. I have strong views about your opinions; nothing but respect for you. IG More this evening, if there is Internet access, telephone communications, and power, in that sequence, where I am heading. --- On Tue, 19/5/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: From: ss cybers...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 9:55 AM On Monday 18 May 2009 10:14:56 pm Bonobashi wrote: there is nothing hypocritical in my condemnation of the Gujarat massacres, and that you can use this only against a specific party and specific individuals from that party and from elsewhere who have actually demonstrated the hypocrisy that you have rightly pilloried. The point? Not everybody falls within your classification, and it does not seem logical to use arguments which depend on these categories as universal categories. Now it would be interesting for you to state those other issues which are being suppressed under the Modi smoke-screen. Please go ahead and list them, and see how secularism or its absence affects those issues. Or our responses to those issues. IG I will try and address the following issues in my reply (and will hopefully answer your questions as well). 1) I will try and illustrate why the use of what I term as a torn shirt versus open fly argument leads inexorably into a slippery slope where anything can be connected up with anything else leading to irreconcilable argument without the ability to see some important issues. 2) I will also try and show why the views you have expressed, while being valid, still count as pseudosecular in their ability to obfuscate and suppress certain opinions. 3) How the suppression of certain inconvenient viewpoints has a negative effect on Indian society today. if you felt personally targeted by my comments, I must admit that my comments (while not targeted at you personallly) were meant to hurt anyone who counters what is seen as a Hindutva argument with a reminder that Modi represents genocide. i don't think any one of us on this list needs a reminder that Modi stands accused of representing genocide. I don't think anyone on this list is a supporter or abettor of murder. Let me merely point out how you have fallen into the standard Hindutva trap by raising the Modi is a killer card as soon as your Hindutva detection meter sounds a warning. But you will have to listen to a fundamntalist Hindu viewpoint that I will state here because this is exactly what is said (and let me point out that is is another egregious example of torn shirt versus open fly - where one fact does not make another irrelevant or false) Al Beruni has documented the murder of Hindus in the past. There are records of other massacres of Hindus including that of 500 brahmins in Melkote. Despite this, I will explain why would it be wrong for a Hindutvadi to call all Muslims murderers on the basis of documented history. No matter who committed murder in the past there are two incontrovertible facts: 1) All Muslims are not murderers and do not support or abet murder 2) For all the murder that was commited by some people, a lot of innocent people are being smeared merely for representing a different viewpoint Now apply that to Hindutva and BJP 1) All Hindutvadis and BJP supporters are not murderers and do not support or abet murder 2) For all the murders commited by Modi and his goons, a lot of innocent people are being smeared merely for representing a different viewpoint. The pseudosecular argument is as follows: You represent Hindutva. Modi represents Hindutva. Modi is a murderer, and therefore your opinions coincide with that of a murderer. No decent human would agree wth you. You need to shut up The counter argument made by Hindutvadis is similar: Islam is a murderous religion. Muslim opinions represent a murderous religion. And your support to them represents support of murder and Hindu genocide. You do not represent real secularism when you fail to criticize genocide by Muslims in the past, while you criticize murder by Hindus more recently. You are pseudosecular. You need to shut up yourself This is the slippery slope that you are getting into when you use Modis guilt to suppress an opinion expressed by somenone else - in this case Bharat Shetty. How does all this impact Indian society? How is pseudosecularism as damaging to society
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Monday 18 May 2009 7:01:05 pm bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: In other words, some citizen wants to explain why murdering Muslims doesn't really matter, against the greater good of the greater number, and other citizens with a narrow mind call him or her a Hindutvabadi and shut off a proper reasoned argument on why and under what circumstances murdering Muslims should be permitted. IG I have already sent a verbose response to another post of yours but this one is too tempting. In the original post that defended Modi's actions I do not recall Bharat Shetty describing himself as either Hindu, or Hindutva or even Hindutvabadi (Hindutva-baddie :D ) If you would like to retrace the sequence of events, Bharat Shetty defended Modi, but, as I stated did not identify himself as either Hindu, or Hindutva or even Hindutvabadi That identification was made by SRS as playing the Hindutva card and that identification is being endorsed by you. Why not simply say that Bharat Shetty is defending Modi the murderer? Why pull all supporters of Hindutva into this? What you are doing in effect is to smear all people who represent Hindutva and being representative of a murderer. You need to ask yourself if you believe this to be true. No harm if you do believe it to be true. It is a viewpoint. But recall that when all Hindutvadis can be dubbed as apologists or representatives of murderers, the same argument can be conveniently applied to other people in other contexts to reach equally spurious conclusions. Why not allow all viewpoints to be aired? shiv
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
--- On Tue, 19/5/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: From: ss cybers...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately? To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 10:14 AM On Monday 18 May 2009 7:01:05 pm bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: In other words, some citizen wants to explain why murdering Muslims doesn't really matter, against the greater good of the greater number, and other citizens with a narrow mind call him or her a Hindutvabadi and shut off a proper reasoned argument on why and under what circumstances murdering Muslims should be permitted. IG I have already sent a verbose response to another post of yours but this one is too tempting. In the original post that defended Modi's actions I do not recall Bharat Shetty describing himself as either Hindu, or Hindutva or even Hindutvabadi (Hindutva-baddie :D ) If you would like to retrace the sequence of events, Bharat Shetty defended Modi, but, as I stated did not identify himself as either Hindu, or Hindutva or even Hindutvabadi That identification was made by SRS as playing the Hindutva card and that identification is being endorsed by you. Why not simply say that Bharat Shetty is defending Modi the murderer? Why pull all supporters of Hindutva into this? What you are doing in effect is to smear all people who represent Hindutva and being representative of a murderer. You need to ask yourself if you believe this to be true. No harm if you do believe it to be true. It is a viewpoint. But recall that when all Hindutvadis can be dubbed as apologists or representatives of murderers, the same argument can be conveniently applied to other people in other contexts to reach equally spurious conclusions. Why not allow all viewpoints to be aired? shiv Shiv, I have the following situation: The bus has broken down and will not proceed further; I will lose a large sum of money if I do not make it to my next stop; that will not be possible until an alternative vehicle is encountered; there are none for hire; the moment such a miracle happens, there will be the proverbial scramble for seats, and although I am assured of a seat due to the respect given to age and to spectacled age at that, I will have to move my arse. This could be the theme of an ironic book. I can think of the title and the contents already - Answering Shiv. Please bear with me as I try to remain alive in choking dust, keep an eye on my relatively expensive 'luggage', and remain prepared to leap off to the good seat on the expected Trekker; my reply may be oddly truncated. I wish to reply your two posts separately. Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
On Tuesday 19 May 2009 8:19:08 am Ramakrishnan Sundaram wrote: 2009/5/19 Chetan Nagendra che...@pobox.com: Heh, Atul bashing hasn't stopped at all, has it? Who's bashing Atul, tempting as that prospect is? It's you. Ram Anybody have anything against hammers? Or talking about hammers? A hammer is, after all A-tul for bashing things. shiv
Re: [silk] Why have Indian exit polls been so off lately?
OT: but it might interest some: An article I wrote that appeared in today's DNA on online advertising by the Congress and the BJP. http://is.gd/BehZ Mahesh
