Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Radhika, Y.radhik...@gmail.com wrote: not tamil. Peecha Kai (left hand), Sothu kai (right hand) is common terminology among tamil brahmins... On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/9/09, Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com wrote: What is Peecha Kai? Never heard that before... Chee, chee, peecha kaiyAle kudukkAthEy... The left hand IS the Peecha Kai.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
There have been a few left handed 'South Indian cricketers, such as WV Raman, Venkatapathi Raju, etc, but not enough to make an impact. Islam, on the other hand, has produced a clutch of talented left-handed cricketers- Wasim, Saeed Anwar, Zaheer Khan, etc. Does this mean that left-handed South Indians are not given enough support when they are kids? On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:20 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: It might not just be South Indians. and/or brahmins. Islamic guidelines for eating and cleaning certain body areas (that you are referring to Deepa) state that you use the right hand for eating and the left hand for the other stuff.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
This is one of the few practices for which I have found a logical and valid reason. Since Indians use water and not toilet paper, the left hand is used for such cleaning and hence never used for ingestion. wouldn't a left-handed kid naturally want to lift the lota/jug with the left hand? for the same reason that right-handed people, esp kids, would naturally lift with the right. or is it parents insisting on the choice of hand, since the association with a particular side is part of the collective and not individual memory? u
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Lahar Appaiahthew...@gmail.com wrote: There have been a few left handed 'South Indian cricketers, such as WV Raman, Venkatapathi Raju, etc, but not enough to make an impact. Islam, on the other hand, has produced a clutch of talented left-handed cricketers- Wasim, Saeed Anwar, Zaheer Khan, etc. Does this mean that left-handed South Indians are not given enough support when they are kids? I like how you've conflated 'south Indian vs non-south Indian' with 'Hindu vs Islam'. :) The clutch of left-handed, non-south Indian Hindu batsmen in the current Indian team supports the former theory, but probably not quite the latter. At least among south Indian Hindus, I know there is still plenty of stigma attached to being left-handed. I have a couple of cousins who were forced as children to learn to use their right hands, especially while eating, when their natural urge was to use the left. Venkat Inumella
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Indrajit Guptabonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: Jhoota - touched by another, typically by mouth, making it impure for consumption by another. The Tamil equivalent is yechal i.e saliva - in very traditional households it is common to never let the lips touch the vessel or I, to this day, do not cease being amazed that your plate is yechal while the table it rests on is not. Just the surface though is. My mom and I have huge arguements about this subject even today and it usually culminates in me shaking my head and walking away while she triumphantly goes about business as usual. Venkat
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
Deepa Mohan wrote: For Brahmins (only men of course) , after sitting down at the palm leaf, and after the meal has been served up to the rice part (before the sambar) it is mandatory to take a palmful of water, take it around the leaf clockwise three times with the water dribbling around (probably to purify the food?), This is to apparently keep the ants and other insects out, if you look at it scientifically. saying, or rather muttering, the Gayatri mantra (I think). Then, the man says, achyuthAya namaha, ananthAya namaha, gOvindAya namaha, Om shri kEshava nArAyaNA mAdhava gOvinda vishNu madhusoodhana thrivikra vAmana They say something, I never got around to learn it, and then eat three grains of rice first and then commence the meal. But the mantra is not the one you have mentioned. The mantra, while correct and all, is usually done many time for various reasons. I never got a proper answer from any perivaal (literally, older people... actually, the wiser ones, or so they say) when I asked. Venkat
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
Radhika, Y. wrote: not tamil. Right. It is madras bhashai. I used to always hear it being referred to as edathu kai. Venkat
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
You want your head to spin a lot more .. here's how to do it. http://bhargavasarma.blogspot.com/2009/04/aachamana-vidhi-its-significance.html Even your periyaval wouldn’t do it this rigorously I think. srs -Original Message- From: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net [mailto:silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net] On Behalf Of Venkat Mangudi Sent: Tuesday, 9 June 2009 3:39 PM To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Indian foodies Deepa Mohan wrote: For Brahmins (only men of course) , after sitting down at the palm leaf, and after the meal has been served up to the rice part (before the sambar) it is mandatory to take a palmful of water, take it around the leaf clockwise three times with the water dribbling around (probably to purify the food?), This is to apparently keep the ants and other insects out, if you look at it scientifically. saying, or rather muttering, the Gayatri mantra (I think). Then, the man says, achyuthAya namaha, ananthAya namaha, gOvindAya namaha, Om shri kEshava nArAyaNA mAdhava gOvinda vishNu madhusoodhana thrivikra vAmana They say something, I never got around to learn it, and then eat three grains of rice first and then commence the meal. But the mantra is not the one you have mentioned. The mantra, while correct and all, is usually done many time for various reasons. I never got a proper answer from any perivaal (literally, older people... actually, the wiser ones, or so they say) when I asked. Venkat
Re: [silk] member intro
Usman Sadozai wrote: Hi, nice to have another U on the list! Welcome, Usman. (Do you call an American a USman?) Deepa. (yes, if he is a USmale). thanks Deepa :-) Welcome to Silk, Usman. And unlike some people, you do not top post. I think we will get along finely, now! Oooh and you also snip! Awesome. Venkat PS: My message contains some additional left over forwards to illustrate a point. :) wink wink nudge
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 04:47:36PM -0400, Bruce Metcalf wrote: snip Sorry, have to ask what is jhoota? Is that like feng shui for food? Food partially eaten by someone else. Or any item in which someone else's saliva may be mixed. Devdas Bhagat
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 15:21, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Indrajit Guptabonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: Jhoota - touched by another, typically by mouth, making it impure for consumption by another. The Tamil equivalent is yechal i.e saliva - in very traditional households it is common to never let the lips touch the vessel or I, to this day, do not cease being amazed that your plate is yechal while the table it rests on is not. Just the surface though is. My mom and I have huge arguements about this subject even today and it usually culminates in me shaking my head and walking away while she triumphantly goes about business as usual. Why must we subject all traditions to logic? That results, most irritatingly, in 'modern traditionalists' (to coin a phrase) offering faux-scientific explanations for their practices. I'd rather follow logic-less traditions than be subject to cargo cult science. [general rant] Related to this is the practice of faux-scientific explanations for non-allopathic medicinal systems. They work (for a great many), and that's great. They (indigenous systems of medicine) offer a holistic view of human well-being, in stark contrast to allopathy, and that's wonderful. It is even better when they are examined using the scientific method and shown to have a scientific basis (though many critique this hegemony of the scientific method). However, it is painful when Western medicinal terminology is used to try to explain in a pseudo-scientific manner how unani or siddha work. The same applies to pseudo-scientific explanations for how astrology works. I am perfectly fine with people rejecting the claims to universality that Science makes. But why is there this great urge in astrologers and modern traditionalists to try to fit their pet superstitions within the realms of science while rejecting all that science stands for? [/ general rant] Cheers, Pranesh P.S. I hope 'pseudo-science' is clearer than 'pseudo-secularism'.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 16:01, Devdas Bhagat dev...@dvb.homelinux.org wrote: On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 04:47:36PM -0400, Bruce Metcalf wrote: snip Sorry, have to ask what is jhoota? Is that like feng shui for food? Food partially eaten by someone else. Or any item in which someone else's saliva may be mixed. A friend recently asked me if belief in 'jhoota'/'yechal' meant that a person couldn't kiss another!
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.comwrote: Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Indrajit Guptabonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: Jhoota - touched by another, typically by mouth, making it impure for consumption by another. The Tamil equivalent is yechal i.e saliva - in very traditional households it is common to never let the lips touch the vessel or I, to this day, do not cease being amazed that your plate is yechal while the table it rests on is not. Just the surface though is. My mom and I have huge arguements about this subject even today and it usually culminates in me shaking my head and walking away while she triumphantly goes about business as usual. Venkat It is basically understanding what is a good conductor of yechal or Ointha as we call it in Oriya. Whatever is fixed is not while what is not fixed is. So plates clearly are while kitchen counters are not. The fridge used to pose a challenge for my othodox grandmother since Non veg food used to contaminate her food in the fridge. The problem was solved by desiganting one shelf in the fridge as pure ensuring that no meat, eggs or Ointha food ever touched that shelf. A Table falls somewhere in no mans land since it is fixed but also movable. . I had this near miss incident in a small village in Orissa when I are some snacks and sweets and unconsciously almost put the dirty plate on the cabinet where all the sweets were stored. The waiter shouted and I stopped myself just in time. Deepak
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
The modern traditionalists are the sort who also insist that ancient india had everything from airplanes (pushpaka vimana) to atomic bombs (brahmastra etc etc - must have got that idea from the cheesy fireworks displays in the Ramayana / Mahabharata TV soap operas) P.S. I hope 'pseudo-science' is clearer than 'pseudo-secularism'. It is even clear than science studies - a weird bastard offspring of science and post modernism, that lays claim to academia. Did anybody around read the Sokal book that debunks it? Even more interesting is the science studies assistant prof (a tambram like us, from her name) who wanted to sue her entire class at Dartmouth for being allergic to her brand of postmodernist nonsense .. http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=659292 -Original Message- From: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net [mailto:silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net] On Behalf Of Pranesh Prakash Sent: Tuesday, 9 June 2009 4:02 PM To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Indian foodies Why must we subject all traditions to logic? That results, most irritatingly, in 'modern traditionalists' (to coin a phrase) offering faux-scientific explanations for their practices. I'd rather follow logic-less traditions than be subject to cargo cult science. [general rant] Related to this is the practice of faux-scientific explanations for non-allopathic medicinal systems. They work (for a great many), and that's great. They (indigenous systems of medicine) offer a holistic view of human well-being, in stark contrast to allopathy, and that's wonderful. It is even better when they are examined using the scientific method and shown to have a scientific basis (though many critique this hegemony of the scientific method). However, it is painful when Western medicinal terminology is used to try to explain in a pseudo-scientific manner how unani or siddha work. The same applies to pseudo-scientific explanations for how astrology works. I am perfectly fine with people rejecting the claims to universality that Science makes. But why is there this great urge in astrologers and modern traditionalists to try to fit their pet superstitions within the realms of science while rejecting all that science stands for? [/ general rant] Cheers, Pranesh P.S. I hope 'pseudo-science' is clearer than 'pseudo-secularism'.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 16:07, Deepak Misra yahoogro...@deepakmisra.com wrote: It is basically understanding what is a good conductor of yechal or Ointha as we call it in Oriya. Whatever is fixed is not while what is not fixed is. So plates clearly are while kitchen counters are not. In some orthodox tambram houses putting a 'yechal' plate on the kitchen counter would be a big no no. And there is also a restriction on putting the plate directly into the kitchen sink. You'd have to go wash it (or at least pour some water on it) where you wash your hands (which is never the kitchen sink), and subsequently go deposit it in the kitchen sink. The fridge used to pose a challenge for my othodox grandmother since Non veg food used to contaminate her food in the fridge. The problem was solved by desiganting one shelf in the fridge as pure ensuring that no meat, eggs or Ointha food ever touched that shelf. A Table falls somewhere in no mans land since it is fixed but also movable. . I had this near miss incident in a small village in Orissa when I are some snacks and sweets and unconsciously almost put the dirty plate on the cabinet where all the sweets were stored. The waiter shouted and I stopped myself just in time. The area of the dining table / floor where the plate rested (which for the brahmin men is signified by the circle of water drops around the plate) is yechchal. So, even the immovable floor can be yechchal. [The following sentences assume right-hand-normativity.] Also, if one held the plate in the left hand while eating, then that hand becomes yechchal. That means no serving of food using the left hand (until it is 'cleansed' with water), and sometimes even no touching of the remote control with the left hand! For a bit more nuance: Yechchal, as someone observed earlier in this thread, can be avoided by flicking the food (if it is flickable, like mixture or laddoo) into the mouth. If, however, your hand is holding the laddoo when the laddoo touches your teeth, then your hand is yechchal.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 04:47:36PM -0400, Bruce Metcalf wrote: snip Sorry, have to ask what is jhoota? You know, from the Indian standpoint, a chef who puts a ladle/spoon into some food to lift out some gravy and then sips the gravy and puts the same ladle/spoon back in the gravy has committed the ultimate sin of contamination that food with his saliva which then becomes jhoota. That food can then be consumed by no one but him. Exchange of body fluids between strangers and even members of the family is strictly discouraged. Any contact with anyone's lips is contamination It is possible that this is a brahmin characteristic. shiv
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tuesday 09 Jun 2009 4:41:50 pm Lahar Appaiah wrote: This whole kissing thing is a Western concept, and is against Indian culture. I agree with Pranesh that if someone really believes in our traditions, they should not kiss. While we get rid of kissing, could we also get rid of the missionary position? Malabar shot anyone? shiv
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
I've always believed that most traditions are rooted either in logic, or in what was most convenient to the people who set the traditions at that time (and which would, presumably, have been logical to those people). Obviously, over time, they've gained the added halo of being an integral part of 'culture' (apart from being irrelevant to the present day and age), and people tend to follow them blindly, because that was what their parents followed. I suspect that if you dig deep enough, you can find a logical explanation for just about anything that falls within the realm of 'tradition'. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.comwrote: Why must we subject all traditions to logic? That results, most irritatingly, in 'modern traditionalists' (to coin a phrase) offering faux-scientific explanations for their practices. I'd rather follow logic-less traditions than be subject to cargo cult science.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
Next you'll say kissing has been set in stone in our culture for centuries. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Mahesh Murthy mahesh.mur...@gmail.comwrote: Unless you think what the sculptures at Khajuraho show or the texts of the Kama Sutra say are against Indian culture, kissing has been very much a part of our culture for millenia. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Lahar Appaiah thew...@gmail.com wrote: This whole kissing thing is a Western concept, and is against Indian culture. I agree with Pranesh that if someone really believes in our traditions, they should not kiss.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
Have you heard the old fable of the priests and the cat? There was this guru whose hermitage had a pet cat in it. Once, the guru was praying / performing a sacrifice when the cat, chasing a mouse, ran into and upset his sacrificial vessels, flowers etc. So the guru ordered his disciples to tie the cat up whenever he was praying / sacrificing etc. Sometime later the guru passed away - but his disciples continued to tie the cat up whenever they were praying. The cat died, and the disciples tied up its kitten that stayed on .. Pretty soon the original disciples died but their students spread out far and wide to found their own hermitages, become priests etc etc. And every one of them dictated that whenever a ritual was to be performed, a cat had to be bought in and tied up .. even if there was no cat around to begin with. srs -Original Message- From: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net [mailto:silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net] On Behalf Of Lahar Appaiah Sent: Tuesday, 9 June 2009 4:51 PM To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Indian foodies I've always believed that most traditions are rooted either in logic, or in what was most convenient to the people who set the traditions at that time (and which would, presumably, have been logical to those people). Obviously, over time, they've gained the added halo of being an integral part of 'culture' (apart from being irrelevant to the present day and age), and people tend to follow them blindly, because that was what their parents followed. I suspect that if you dig deep enough, you can find a logical explanation for just about anything that falls within the realm of 'tradition'. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.comwrote: Why must we subject all traditions to logic? That results, most irritatingly, in 'modern traditionalists' (to coin a phrase) offering faux-scientific explanations for their practices. I'd rather follow logic-less traditions than be subject to cargo cult science.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 04:41:50PM +0530, Lahar Appaiah wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.comwrote: A friend recently asked me if belief in 'jhoota'/'yechal' meant that a person couldn't kiss another! This whole kissing thing is a Western concept, and is against Indian culture. I agree with Pranesh that if someone really believes in our traditions, they should not kiss. Do you just mean among people who aren't exchanging other bodily fluids? Because, unless Richard Burton introduced the bits about kissing in his translation, kissing between lovers has many centuries of history in India. (Or was Vātsyāyana influenced by Western concepts?) It is really difficult to find any concepts that don't exist *somewhere* in Indian history. How old is the jhoota concept? I am guessing India didn't wait for Pasteur to discover that drinking other people's saliva was unhealthy. Even though I didn't grow up in an Indian family, I did grow up with the idea that drinking someone else's drink or eating someone else's food was sort of unclean and polluting. Later, I mostly became assimilated into mainstream American society. No herpes yet! KISS is also an American heavy metal band with widespread notoriety. The name was supposed to be an anagram for Knights in Satan's Service. They are mostly notorious because their music is bad. Wikipedia claims that the acronym claims are all wrong. Kragen
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
Crazy Crazy Nights is an excellent song, and is a particular favorite of mine, but it falls rapidly downhill from there- 2nd best is the disco-ish and insipid-after-3-minutes I was born for loving you. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Kragen Javier Sitaker kra...@canonical.orgwrote: KISS is also an American heavy metal band with widespread notoriety. The name was supposed to be an anagram for Knights in Satan's Service. They are mostly notorious because their music is bad. Wikipedia claims that the acronym claims are all wrong.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:36 AM, Deepa Mohanmohande...@gmail.com wrote: This is one of the few practices for which I have found a logical and valid reason. the indian obsession with the right hand is not restricted to just food. on numerous ocassions the subziwallah or the local bania's (shopkeepers?) would be deeply offended if i gave them money with the left hand. It will be accompanied by a bonii ka time hai, woh haath se do (its business time, give the money with your right hand). Well so long as the money came in why did it matter which hand gave it?- but obviously it does matter. for accepting anything from anyone. There's even a superstition that if you accept money with your left hand, you might lose it (er, not in the toilet, yikes, i typed the above before reading your mail :) -- .
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:54 AM, Deepa Mohanmohande...@gmail.com wrote: Chee, chee, peecha kaiyAle kudukkAthEy... The left hand IS the Peecha Kai. i am hearing this for the first time -- .
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
the Great chestnut served up in an Indian avatar. The west takes its revenge on India for the Panchatantra. --- On Tue, 9/6/09, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: From: Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Indian foodies To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Tuesday, 9 June, 2009, 5:02 PM Have you heard the old fable of the priests and the cat? There was this guru whose hermitage had a pet cat in it. Once, the guru was praying / performing a sacrifice when the cat, chasing a mouse, ran into and upset his sacrificial vessels, flowers etc. So the guru ordered his disciples to tie the cat up whenever he was praying / sacrificing etc. Sometime later the guru passed away - but his disciples continued to tie the cat up whenever they were praying. The cat died, and the disciples tied up its kitten that stayed on .. Pretty soon the original disciples died but their students spread out far and wide to found their own hermitages, become priests etc etc. And every one of them dictated that whenever a ritual was to be performed, a cat had to be bought in and tied up .. even if there was no cat around to begin with. srs -Original Message- From: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net [mailto:silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net] On Behalf Of Lahar Appaiah Sent: Tuesday, 9 June 2009 4:51 PM To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Indian foodies I've always believed that most traditions are rooted either in logic, or in what was most convenient to the people who set the traditions at that time (and which would, presumably, have been logical to those people). Obviously, over time, they've gained the added halo of being an integral part of 'culture' (apart from being irrelevant to the present day and age), and people tend to follow them blindly, because that was what their parents followed. I suspect that if you dig deep enough, you can find a logical explanation for just about anything that falls within the realm of 'tradition'. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.comwrote: Why must we subject all traditions to logic? That results, most irritatingly, in 'modern traditionalists' (to coin a phrase) offering faux-scientific explanations for their practices. I'd rather follow logic-less traditions than be subject to cargo cult science. The old Catherine Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tuesday 09 Jun 2009 7:54:11 pm . wrote: the indian obsession with the right hand Just for you: In 1999 I wrote an article for my alumni newsletter that I reproduce here: Toilet thoughts When one is young, one takes for granted the experiences that one is subjected to, and accepts rules that are taught without questioning their meaning. At least, this was certainly true for me until I entered an NHS toilet in England in the early 1980s in partial fulfillment of an urgent physiological requirement. I found, to my amusement, that the toilet paper had, printed on it, the words Now wash your hands please. I wondered if people had to be told to perform this task which I and everyone I knew performed routinely without talking about it and announcing it aloud. Suddenly, something fell into place in my mind and I started thinking of all that had been drilled into my resisting mind as a boy at home, and compared it with the wisdom imparted to me by my teachers and textbooks in medical college. I remembered being taught the word fomite and how a fomite might spread bugs (of the non-carrot-eating kind). It seemed strange that the act of washing one's hands after using them for unspeakable tasks had been conceived of and taught to me by people who had no knowledge of fomites or fo-midges. How had they known? There were a number of other tips on hygiene that had similarly been passed on to me. I was born and brought up in a Brahmin family, and there exists a concept called madi in Kannada. Madi is pronounced muddy, but is quite the opposite in its intent. Madi is typically used by a Brahmin prior to performing his work - whatever it might be - which traditionally was that of a teacher or a priest, or even perhaps a physician. In essence it involved having a bath and wearing fresh clothes, after which the person could not be touched by a non-madi person. Even a single touch was considered contamination (a state called ma'ilgay), necessitating a repeat bath and a change. The concept was a joke for me, and I remember deriving great pleasure from ruining the madi state of my grandmother by touching her. A decade later, I realized that the practice of operating theatre technique has close parallels to this madi state. A mere touch is considered contamination, and is treated as such. People still remove their footwear before entering a house in India. Certainly this used to make much sense when cooking, eating, and everything was at floor level in India. Removing footwear is the usual first step before entering most operating theatres and intensive care units anywhere in the world. Overshoes serve much the same purpose - that is, of preventing gross contamination adherent to one's footwear from being carried in and spread around in an area where one is trying to keep contamination down. In Indian homes the advent of dining tables and kitchen platforms for cooking have diluted, but have not fully taken away the significance of the simple act of removing one's footwear. At a recent meeting in Bangalore on nosocomial infections, one prominent surgeon from St. John's said that in this day and age it is ridiculous and unnecessary to take off one's shoes before entering an ICU because bugs cannot walk up beds and tables. I was surprised at this statement from a person who I otherwise view in a very favourable light. Floor contamination has an insidious way of getting on raised platforms. Dust can be stirred up by gusts caused by people walking. Pens and papers are accidentally dropped and then picked up and replaced on tables or on beds. I still think removal of footwear is a useful adjunct in keeping bug counts down. As a boy, I was always instructed to wash my hands and feet if entering the house from outside, or after visiting the toilet. The necessity for washing hands is obvious, but why the feet? A single experience of relieving oneself in the traditional Indian way gives new meaning to the word splashing, and it is easy to convince oneself that washing of feet is an essential part of maintaining a degree of hygiene. But what about hospitals? Certainly, we all wear shoes, and most wear socks as well, and our feet are generally kept free from gross amounts of muck, so removing footwear is probably adequate - for us. But things always work differently in India. I once noticed that the canteen boy who brought in coffee and snacks to the operating theatre side rooms was barefoot, seemingly indicating that he had removed his footwear. But when I followed him out, I saw that he had no footwear at all. In effect, that hospital had a system in which those who had footwear maintained OT hygiene by removing their footwear outside, but the dozens of people who never wore footwear at all were walking in and out of the clean area of the OT with impunity. Maybe washing one's feet should be a requirement before entering Indian operating theatres.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tuesday 09 Jun 2009 7:54:11 pm . wrote: subziwallah or the local bania's (shopkeepers?) would be deeply offended if i gave them money with the left hand. Actually it is impolite to do that. In the UK sniffing was impolite. Blowing your nose loudly was fine. Stepping over the stretched legs of someone sitting down was normal in the UK. But it is impolite in India. Raju, chai lao meaning Raju fetch tea! is a perfectly polite way of asking for tea in India - although it sounds more like a command to your dog in English. The English equivalent is a circuitous and tentative, Can I have a cup of tea please? A lot of anglophone (Macaulayite) Indians grow up with cultural confusion. I had an alumni newsletter article about that too - but I'll leave that for another time... shiv
Re: [silk] Quizzing in Bangalore
I used to have a fairly settled quiz team, but haven't quizzed for months now, and suspect that I have been kicked out. Why don't you try the KQA group on Facebook and see if you can get a partner? On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.comwrote: Dear all, Would anybody on this list in Bangalore be interested in going for a bunch of quizzes[1] (organized by the Karnataka Quiz Association) on Sunday, June 28, 2009 with me in his/her/their team? I've lost my erstwhile quiz-mates to various sources -- including a multinational tax consultancy firm,[2] and the Chief Justice of India[3] (fondly called KGB) -- but am keen on trying my hand (or should I say mind?) at quizzing again. [1] http://kqaquizzes.org/2009/06/04/askqance-2009/ [2] http://www.in.kpmg.com/about/overview.asp [3] http://www.supremecourtofindia.nic.in/judges/bio/sitting/bkgopinathan.htm Cheers, Pranesh
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Lahar Appaiah thew...@gmail.com wrote: There have been a few left handed 'South Indian cricketers, such as WV Raman, Venkatapathi Raju, etc, but not enough to make an impact. Islam, on the other hand, has produced a clutch of talented left-handed cricketers- Wasim, Saeed Anwar, Zaheer Khan, etc. Does this mean that left-handed South Indians are not given enough support when they are kids? Mihir Bose, in his book A History of Indian Cricket, puts forward exactly this theory as a reason for why India has historically had such few left-handed batsmen. Given the left-handers to come into the Indian team in the last 15 years or so, this no longer holds -- no pun intended. -- Amit Varma http://www.indiauncut.com
Re: [silk] Intro
There have been tons of Appaiahs at Cottons, but none are related (to the best of my knowledge :-). Appaiah, though (like all other Coorg names) is a given name, and not a surname. The 'traditional' Coorg naming system is AB Name, where A is the 'Family' name, B is your dad's name, and Name is the given name. Hence, a PB Bopanna and a PB Chengappa are likely to be brothers, but PB Bopanna and MD Bopanna are as likely to be related as a Ravi Jain and a Ravi Kumar. This naming system is pretty common across South India, with the number of initials varying, and denoting village, father's name, etc. In my case, though, I'm an army kid, and my early years were in North India, where the schools followed a First Name Last Name system (especially with admission forms, etc), and so my dad's name ended up as my surname. This is becoming more common now among Coorgs, and even among South Indians in general. -Lahar On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Dave Kumar dave.ku...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 2:49 AM, Lahar Appaiah thew...@gmail.com wrote: My alumni listing has Infosys, Wipro, National Law School and Bishop Cottons Bangalore. A fellow Cottonian! And another in the long list of Appaiahs to attend Cottons (though it is a common name I suppose). DK (ISC/ICSE from BCBS in '89/'87 and yes, I was on the quiz team)
Re: [silk] Introductions and Identity
Udhay wrote: Am I making sense? Yes, but perhaps not the *same* sense to all of us. I may have a somewhat different perspective on this, being an relatively untraveled American. My meatspace experience has never introduced me to a Udhay, a Madhu, or a Bonobashi. From here, I can't tell if any of these are typical names, obvious (to you) pseudonyms, or cultural references. I can't even guess which are (meant to be) male and which female. Similarly, Bruce may be a cypher to some others here. And you know what? I don't care. Each regular poster here has a consistent name (though I see from this thread that some have more than one). Those I recognize have built for themselves a reputation, and though it be entirely divorced from the human I might hope some day to meet, these electronic personalities are as real to me as any of my friends. Disinhibition? Yes, always a concern online, as is misidentification, but this list has both technical and social barriers to misbehavior (without comic intent) that seem sufficient -- indeed superior to most lists I read. Do you wish to reinvent yourself, perhaps experimentally? I see no reason to block this so long as the deception is not malicious. Do you wish two, unrelated identities on this list? You may have them, but at the cost (to us both) that I will know you in both guises less well. (Don't expect me to carry the burden of remembering who is also who.) So call yourselves what you will, for whatever reasons you find sufficient to your needs, and I will gladly abide. Just try to stay interesting. Bruce
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.comwrote: Radhika, Y. wrote: not tamil. Right. It is madras bhashai. I used to always hear it being referred to as edathu kai. Venkat I grew up in Calcutta/Kolkata...but perhaps I heard these terms (shOtthu kai, peecha kai) from my Madras cousins?can't remember! Deepa.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.comwrote: A friend recently asked me if belief in 'jhoota'/'yechal' meant that a person couldn't kiss another! Yeah, right, that's why we are a nation of a billion people! Probably one of our national songs would be Jhoot oonchA rahEy hamArA. Deepa.
Re: [silk] Burnout
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Kiran Jonnalagaddaj...@pobox.com wrote: I figured the only way to remain sane was by joining the mainstream and leading an unhurried life. If this puts me in the category of those people who are mysteriously of lower productivity when in India, so be it. The price of added productivity is not worth it. I'd rather be unhurried and focus on doing something meaningful. Sorry for flogging a dead horse, but I do want to add my rant about India. I left India at 16 and do not get to experience the day to day troubles of living in India. But it amazes me that living in India can be summed up in a slogan: adjust please. My parents are middle-aged and taking care of my grand mother who can hardly walk. With the searing heat in Chennai, there are constant power cuts and voltage fluctuations. So the fridge stops working. Electrician, does not come immediately, but comes when he pleases. There is no competition but just one or two electricians covering a beat. He fixes it but the voltage stabilizer he has installed does not work after he leaves. So he comes back, in his own sweet time, and fixes it AGAIN. The Cable TV randomly shows channels as and when they want to show. My dad wanted to see the T20, and the channels go missing. Calls go unanswered. Then after 4 days of repeated calls, someone deigns to come to my place and fix the cable TV. Every freaking electricity connection is loose. Move the computer / mixie / coffee maker / TV a little bit and the power goes off on that machine. My sister-in-law bought an iMac and it has the same blasted loose connection. People are never on time - or never bother to inform if they are coming or not. Nobody says No or even Yes. I had so much trouble managing one of the employees of an outsourcing outfits. He seemed to understand, but never did what was asked. But, it seems to be the case otherwise. My sister-n-law seems to have the same problem interacting with ppl at her work place. One guy (an experienced senior) who was fired seems to be hell bent on making her resign from her job (she did resign eventually, but for different reasons). I know it is not a problem in India alone. But this has been my experience in India. I doubt if I can get even 10% of the usual stuff I get done here, in India. I don't really look forward to living in India but I would have to at some point in the future to take care of my parents. Sigh.
Re: [silk] Intro
i am an air force kid and my name has stubbornly remained Yeddanapudi Radhika where Yeddanapudi is the village we hail from;-) On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM, Lahar Appaiah thew...@gmail.com wrote: There have been tons of Appaiahs at Cottons, but none are related (to the best of my knowledge :-). Appaiah, though (like all other Coorg names) is a given name, and not a surname. The 'traditional' Coorg naming system is AB Name, where A is the 'Family' name, B is your dad's name, and Name is the given name. Hence, a PB Bopanna and a PB Chengappa are likely to be brothers, but PB Bopanna and MD Bopanna are as likely to be related as a Ravi Jain and a Ravi Kumar. This naming system is pretty common across South India, with the number of initials varying, and denoting village, father's name, etc. In my case, though, I'm an army kid, and my early years were in North India, where the schools followed a First Name Last Name system (especially with admission forms, etc), and so my dad's name ended up as my surname. This is becoming more common now among Coorgs, and even among South Indians in general. -Lahar On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Dave Kumar dave.ku...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 2:49 AM, Lahar Appaiah thew...@gmail.com wrote: My alumni listing has Infosys, Wipro, National Law School and Bishop Cottons Bangalore. A fellow Cottonian! And another in the long list of Appaiahs to attend Cottons (though it is a common name I suppose). DK (ISC/ICSE from BCBS in '89/'87 and yes, I was on the quiz team)
Re: [silk] Intro
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com wrote: i am an air force kid and my name has stubbornly remained Yeddanapudi Radhika where Yeddanapudi is the village we hail from;-) Just could NOT resist saying, I was wondering, Y Radhika! : Deepa.
Re: [silk] Indian techies - eat yer heart out!
2009/6/8 ss cybers...@gmail.com A bit old - but nothing wakes me up like Pakistan http://www.pseb.org.pk/bulletin/spet2006/bulletin_details.htm Pakistan Software Export Board Bulletin I quote only the parts to cause heartburn... Pakistani media is good fun. I turn to them for a good laugh now and then. I recently read an article detailing the widespread conspiracy unleashed by the Indian Government (and of course the BJP) in ---wait for it--- IPL of all things. I'll post it if I find it. Dawn on the other hand is fairly unbiased and I go to their website once in a while for a glimpse on the goings on in that very troubled neighbour of ours. Incidentally, I have been getting a lot of invites recently from dudes in Pakistan (primarily on Facebook and Skype) asking to be friends. I've declined all of them since a family in Cochin had an unpleasant ordeal due to answering a call from a number the police were monitoring. Anybody else facing the same thing? Kiran
Re: [silk] Intro
actully the middle initial makes it even more philosophical a question: Y.R. Radhika! imagine the commotion it causes when i arrive in YVR (vancouver airport!) On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com wrote: i am an air force kid and my name has stubbornly remained Yeddanapudi Radhika where Yeddanapudi is the village we hail from;-) Just could NOT resist saying, I was wondering, Y Radhika! : Deepa.
Re: [silk] Intro
Radhika, Could you please avoid top-posting and trim your replies? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting#Choosing_the_proper_posting_style Leaving the entire messsage below to make my point (you may have to choose show quoted parts in gmail to view it. Udhay Radhika, Y. wrote, [on 6/10/2009 5:54 AM]: actully the middle initial makes it even more philosophical a question: Y.R. Radhika! imagine the commotion it causes when i arrive in YVR (vancouver airport!) On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com wrote: i am an air force kid and my name has stubbornly remained Yeddanapudi Radhika where Yeddanapudi is the village we hail from;-) Just could NOT resist saying, I was wondering, Y Radhika! : Deepa. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Intro
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Udhay Shankar Nud...@pobox.com wrote: Radhika, Could you please avoid top-posting and trim your replies? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting#Choosing_the_proper_posting_style Leaving the entire messsage below to make my point (you may have to choose show quoted parts in gmail to view it. And the same goes to you too Lahar Appiah. Please do take the time to trim your quotes in replies. Thaths -- You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel. -- Homer J. Simpson
Re: [silk] Intro
2009/6/10 Thaths tha...@gmail.com And the same goes to you too Lahar Appiah. Please do take the time to trim your quotes in replies. I believe it is Appaiah. Appiah has some very nasty connotations/meanings I believe in most South Indian languages and most definitely in Malayalam. Kiran
Re: [silk] Intro
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyankiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/6/10 Thaths tha...@gmail.com And the same goes to you too Lahar Appiah. Please do take the time to trim your quotes in replies. I believe it is Appaiah. Appiah has some very nasty connotations/meanings I believe in most South Indian languages and most definitely in Malayalam. Apologies, Appaiah, about the mangling of the name. That was not intended. The request about not top posting and quoting sensibly stands. Thaths -- You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel. -- Homer J. Simpson
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
Deepa Mohan wrote: Yeah, right, that's why we are a nation of a billion people! Probably one But seriously, what does kissing have to do with our nation being a billion strong? If memory serves me right, adding to the population can be easily accomplished without kissing. ;-) Venkat
[silk] pay up, or stay here
Are employment contracts with if you leave, you have to give three months' notice or _pay us three months' salary_ clauses enforceable in India? Or is it just intimidation? -- ams, just curious.
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
2009/6/10 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com But seriously, what does kissing have to do with our nation being a billion strong? If memory serves me right, adding to the population can be easily accomplished without kissing. ;-) Though I'm sure its not the case here, an Indian exposed only to mainstream Indian cinema of a few decades ago and not having access to the requisite literature would have vehemently disagreed with you. When I moved to the US after 6th standard, Sex Ed was a total revelation. Till then I had loosely associated babies to kissing and any one or a combination of the sun shining/birds chirping/dew falling off plants/plants swaying in the breeze :) Kiran
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyankiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: When I moved to the US after 6th standard, Sex Ed was a total revelation. Till then I had loosely associated babies to kissing and any one or a combination of the sun shining/birds chirping/dew falling off plants/plants swaying in the breeze :) Don't you know? Every time a train enters a tunnel or a bee buzzes a flower or a bush shakes vigorously a baby is made. Thaths -- You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel. -- Homer J. Simpson
Re: [silk] pay up, or stay here
--- On Wed, 10/6/09, Abhijit Menon-Sen a...@toroid.org wrote: From: Abhijit Menon-Sen a...@toroid.org Subject: [silk] pay up, or stay here To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 8:23 AM Are employment contracts with if you leave, you have to give three months' notice or _pay us three months' salary_ clauses enforceable in India? Or is it just intimidation? -- ams, just curious. This is a contract under civil law, enforceable in a civil suit, whatever time it takes. It has to be even-handed, insofar as both sides have to have equal rights; you can't say,When we sack you, we pay you a month's money, when you resign, you pay us three months' worth. Consequences when you leave may be refusal to give you an experience certificate, which may give some ethical employers a pain in the elbow; there are no ethical employers in India. They can't hold your PF. They may hold your gratuity. No variable pay (bonuses, etc.) unless you are married to a lawyer who's willing to fight, doubtful even then. No sales or marketing commissions. The definition of a month's salary needs VERY careful attention, with regard to what is included and what is not. It has to be the same both ways. Cricket on your mind? Visit the ultimate cricket website. Enter http://beta.cricket.yahoo.com
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Wednesday 10 Jun 2009 8:15:14 am Venkat Mangudi wrote: But seriously, what does kissing have to do with our nation being a billion strong? If memory serves me right, adding to the population can be easily accomplished without kissing. ;-) Are you talking about the difference between love and making love? shiv
[silk] Indian Habits
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:57 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: People still remove their footwear before entering a house in India. Not everybody, I know of traditional families who were very strict about it, BUT one trip to the USA and they are walking with shoes/sandals all over the house. In our home, its a strict NO-NO, even for kids (who sometimes do). At a recent meeting in Bangalore on nosocomial infections, one prominent surgeon from St. John's said that in this day and age it is ridiculous and unnecessary to take off one's shoes before entering an ICU because bugs cannot walk up beds and tables. I was surprised at this statement from a I am surprised too. After all these years, does he/she still has the same opinion ? Maybe washing one's feet should be a requirement before entering Indian operating theatres. It looks so. Have you though of implementing this rule at your workplace ? johnson
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:19 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: A lot of anglophone (Macaulayite) Indians grow up with cultural confusion. I had an alumni newsletter article about that too - but I'll leave that for another time... I for one, would like to read it. Do post it johnson
Re: [silk] Burnout
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:45 PM, divya manian divya.man...@gmail.comwrote: troubles of living in India. But it amazes me that living in India can be summed up in a slogan: adjust please. More so, if you live in Bangalore, my hometown where I was born, bred and buttered. Adjust maadi is namma bengaluru slogan. We own the rights :-) The Cable TV randomly shows channels as and when they want to show. My dad wanted to see the T20, and the channels go missing. Calls go Time to shift to Satellite Tv (Tatasky / BigTv ...) !! People are never on time - or never bother to inform if they are coming or not. Agreed, being on time is something most of us here don't, but few of us, like me, are a stickler for time. I am still not sure how to change this trend in my part of the world. I have tried many ways, for eg: during college days, when our group of friends planned to meet at a place, I used to be the only one on time and wait and wait ... So, after a while, I came on time, waited for 5-10 mins Max, and left. Thereafter, everytime, one of my friends used to come on time, I thought I brought in some change. Change I did, but only partly, becos' I later found out that, just to keep me from leaving, they used to call up each other and decide, in turns, to come on time :-( Nobody says No or even Yes. I had so much trouble Maybe they did, with the typical Indian head sway (up, down and sidewards). You will not be sure if its a yes/no, but we have perfected the art of interpreting it :-) __ j o h n s o n www.johnson.in
Re: [silk] Indian foodies
--- On Wed, 10/6/09, Dr. John Marshall Johnson johnso...@gmail.com wrote: From: Dr. John Marshall Johnson johnso...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Indian foodies To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 10:09 AM On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:19 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: A lot of anglophone (Macaulayite) Indians grow up with cultural confusion. I had an alumni newsletter article about that too - but I'll leave that for another time... I for one, would like to read it. Do post it johnson It would seem that Shiv's fellow alumni have a very lively time of it. From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/
Re: [silk] Intro
I have been following that admirable practice for some time now. A detailed scrutiny of any mail that might have caused offence would reveal that irrelevant bits are ruthlessly weeded out, and the remainder helps others place my message in the appropriate context. If I have been remiss in doing so for any message, my apologies. Oh, and I don't speak any of the languages where Appiah has negative connotations well enough :-) On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 7:39 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: And the same goes to you too Lahar Appiah. Please do take the time to trim your quotes in replies. Thaths
Re: [silk] Indian Habits
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Dr. John Marshall Johnson johnso...@gmail.com wrote: At a recent meeting in Bangalore on nosocomial infections, one prominent surgeon from St. John's said that in this day and age it is ridiculous and unnecessary to take off one's shoes before entering an ICU because bugs cannot walk up beds and tables. I was surprised at this statement from a I am surprised too. After all these years, does he/she still has the same opinion ? Well, I have strong issues with the fact that in many clinics and hospitals, the patients are mandated to remove their footwear...and the doctors and nurses don't. I pointed this out once at R V Dental College and was told that they didn't want patients to dirty the dental chairs. I promised not to, and kept my footwear on. Why do medical people do this? It's good, in places like Bangalore where the tiled floors might be cold (or even in other places where the Indian dust does crack the heels), to have a set of home slippers, that are never used outside the front door. I keep a few pairs of slippers for visitors who would like to use them.do hate people tracking in dirt on their shoes and spreading it all over my carpet! Yes, it is mostly the foreign visitors who forget to ask, and walk in with their designer trainersevery workman who comes home takes off his footwear as a matter of course. I do not like visiting temples because of the bare feet rule. My feet become so dirty, and I don't like, after the temple visit, putting my footwear on dirty feet and coming home. I have started preferring to wear covered footwear because of the dust. Deepa.
Re: [silk] pay up, or stay here
Yes, it's enforceable. What a company can do: 1. No relieving letter. (though a 'service certificate' is a requirement under law). 2. They can terminate you for abandoning work, and can issue a letter stating that you are terminated. When a background check occurs, they will state that you have been fired. 3. Hold back your dues/ adjust these against your full and final settlement. 4 Additionally, if they are serious about you staying back the 3 months, they can get an injunction in court, enforcing the terms of the contract. Once a court passes an order requiring you to serve out your notice period, you will have to comply. Just ensure that the calculation of salary is done consistently- ideally, see what standards they use when they are paying out notice pay to employees, and insist that the same calculations should apply. On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Indrajit Gupta bonoba...@yahoo.co.inwrote: This is a contract under civil law, enforceable in a civil suit, whatever time it takes.
Re: [silk] pay up, or stay here
On 10-Jun-09, at 11:09 AM, Lahar Appaiah wrote: 4 Additionally, if they are serious about you staying back the 3 months, they can get an injunction in court, enforcing the terms of the contract. Once a court passes an order requiring you to serve out your notice period, you will have to comply. Just ensure that the calculation of salary is done consistently- ideally, see what standards they use when they are paying out notice pay to employees, and insist that the same calculations should apply. Wouldn't this fall foul of bonded labour regulations? A friend of mine quit an IT major three months after joining, while still in his mandatory training period. His superior said she couldn't record it as a resignation. She'd get investigated for that, so she was going to mark him as absconding. He received a notice from them demanding he pay up the training fee bond. A lawyer advised him to ignore it since it wouldn't stand in court anyway. He did, and in over six years since, hasn't been bothered by them again.
