Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Mar 31, 2012 6:26 AM, Aadisht Khanna li...@aadisht.net wrote: On 29-03-2012 20:44, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Affluence is definitely a prime culprit - during the zenith of the Imperium Romanum there was a similar crisis when free Romans didn't want to marry, because it was a drag, orgies were much fun. Roman society had to introduce a variety of incentives to promote marriage and the family. The tax benefits handed to married couples in modern societies comes directly from those times. Cheeni, do you have a citation for this, please? I was under the impression that income tax (and therefore any benefits or exemptions to it) was a twentieth century invention. Lex Julia et Papia is your Google term. http://www.unrv.com/government/julianmarriage.php « 120. Men must marry. Rome, 131 B.C. (fr. 6 Malcovati. L) Speech of the censor Quintus Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus [16] about the law requiring men to marry in order to produce children. According to Livy (Per. 59), in 17 B.C. Augustus read out this speech, which seemed written for the hour, in the Senate in support of his own legislation encouraging marriage and childbearing (see no. 121).If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance; but since nature has so decreed that we cannot manage comfortably with them, nor live in any way without them, [17] we must plan for our lasting preservation rather than for our temporary pleasure. 121. Prizes for marriage and having children. Rome, 1st cent. A.D. (Dio Cassius, History of Rome 54.16.1-1. Early 3rd cent. A.D. G) [Augustus] assessed heavier taxes on unmarried men and women without husbands, and by contrast offered awards for marriage and childbearing. And since there were more males than females among the nobility, he permitted anyone who wished (except for senators) to marry freedwomen, and decreed that children of such marriages be legitimate. »
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 6:31 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: Aadisht Khanna [31/03/12 09:54 +0530]: On 29-03-2012 20:44, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Cheeni, do you have a citation for this, please? I was under the impression that income tax (and therefore any benefits or exemptions to it) was a twentieth century invention. 1799 in england to be specific. by Pitt the Younger eh? Kautilya’s Arthasastra (300BC) talks in detail about income tax, customs levies and trade taxes, and still earlier, the Manu Smriti also has sections on taxation of agricultural produce. Chinese emperors have for long played with income tax too. Sloth taxes were quite common too; if you didn't cultivate land under your ownership it was quite common to pay a tax for keeping it fallow. There have been other taxes on income such as tithes since ancient times In ancient times the idea of personal property was non-existent, everything belonged to the tribe. It was in later years when the size of the tribe expanded to empire sized institutions that land taxes and tithes started becoming necessary.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
In its present shape and form at any rate There have been previous taxes on income and wealth, around the world -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:54:45 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 6:31 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: Aadisht Khanna [31/03/12 09:54 +0530]: On 29-03-2012 20:44, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Cheeni, do you have a citation for this, please? I was under the impression that income tax (and therefore any benefits or exemptions to it) was a twentieth century invention. 1799 in england to be specific. by Pitt the Younger eh? Kautilya’s Arthasastra (300BC) talks in detail about income tax, customs levies and trade taxes, and still earlier, the Manu Smriti also has sections on taxation of agricultural produce. Chinese emperors have for long played with income tax too. Sloth taxes were quite common too; if you didn't cultivate land under your ownership it was quite common to pay a tax for keeping it fallow. There have been other taxes on income such as tithes since ancient times In ancient times the idea of personal property was non-existent, everything belonged to the tribe. It was in later years when the size of the tribe expanded to empire sized institutions that land taxes and tithes started becoming necessary.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Deepak Shenoy deepakshe...@gmail.com wrote: To balance the personal with the social and familial is a tough thing to do in the modern world where choices are increasingly personal because the personal has a short-termist appeal to the curious. I can't agree with this; personal choices make for brilliant long term thinking. Which to me explains why, in those olden ages, people went off to the mountains to meditate. If you wanted to think longer term, you needed to get out of society which always bound you to the short term. The exception does not make the rule. Soceity has never been at risk of being over run by society shunning monks and thinkers. For most people personal choice is a way of acting out their desires away from the glare of social censure.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
The exception does not make the rule. Soceity has never been at risk of being over run by society shunning monks and thinkers. For most people personal choice is a way of acting out their desires away from the glare of social censure. An exception usually attempts to disprove the rule, and in this case there was just one example given. Gazillions others exist, from the Socrateses to those that argued against blood-letting, to prove that ignoring individual choices or thinking can be hugely harmful to society as a whole. Society has always been at risk by not allowing personal decisions to flourish. I also disagree on the last sentence - every choice, whether social or personal, will invite some censure, personal or social. Either party doesn't care. The social element is far more dangerous which is why we loathe collateral damage. Often collateral damage is written away as a tradeoff, but like a white lie, it is always wrong.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
ss [30/03/12 09:07 +0530]: Srini there are thousands upon thousands of records. The internet is nowadays bursting with them. Many are oral but an increasing number are documented. Many are now being documented as family narratives, and some of those are I will agree with Shiv on this.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Thursday 29 Mar 2012 8:44:13 pm Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: The new way of the individual is new to humanity - it's never been attempted at this scale heretofore. Barring the mendicants and eccentrics, the way of society has almost always revolved around the family and the tribe. Speaking of scales, humans have never existed in the numbers that they do so the scales will be bigger for that reason alone. But that apart, I find it instructive that Hindu, Christian and Islamic tradition individually and specifically frown upon the new way of the individual. That gives me the sense that the new way is not just new, but well known and recognized as a problem and has been that way for over 2000 years. shiv
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On 29-03-2012 20:44, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Affluence is definitely a prime culprit - during the zenith of the Imperium Romanum there was a similar crisis when free Romans didn't want to marry, because it was a drag, orgies were much fun. Roman society had to introduce a variety of incentives to promote marriage and the family. The tax benefits handed to married couples in modern societies comes directly from those times. Cheeni, do you have a citation for this, please? I was under the impression that income tax (and therefore any benefits or exemptions to it) was a twentieth century invention. -- Regards, Aadisht Mailing address for lists: li...@aadisht.net Personal mailing address: aadi...@aadisht.net Phone: 96000 23067
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
Aadisht Khanna [31/03/12 09:54 +0530]: On 29-03-2012 20:44, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: Cheeni, do you have a citation for this, please? I was under the impression that income tax (and therefore any benefits or exemptions to it) was a twentieth century invention. 1799 in england to be specific. by Pitt the Younger There have been other taxes on income such as tithes since ancient times
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: People who desire choice in their career will also desire a choice in their partner, in their beliefs, in their religion, in their social circle, in every aspect of life primarily because there's no coercive counter force. Once career leaves the societal and familial circle there is no control left over the individual for society to exert, thus we see more and more expansion of the personal sphere. Once there's a critical mass of personal decisions made it becomes expensive to maintain all three spheres - endless justification of one's personal decisions to society and family can be demanding, increasing the concentration of our lives around the personal sphere. This is also termed in the West as self actualization and individual development, which on the face of it is a jolly good idea. In a way this is freedom, but it is also lack of insurance, a lack of a frame of reference. Why is it lack of insurance ? I dont see how living in the same house in a big nuclear family is better insurance. From my personal experience I can tell you that one makes choices - you develop alternatives to the insurance provided by extended family, you build your own frames of reference. That can mean building a network of supportive social relationships with other people who are in the same boat as you. You also don't neccessarily lose extended family support - it doesnt have to mean that your aging parents must go to a retirement home - you have a choice now, when there was none before. Also, you are not making choices in isolation - there are extended family members who make similar choices - and are in the same boat, if you maintain a relationship you can count on them. I think making a personal choice is better, because it allows you to expand your social fabric without necessarily losing the security of the birth culture one - and also makes you more responsible since its your decision and not some collective unspoken proclamation. Chasing the personal sphere is risky - it is the way of the world today - but it is risky - and worst of all this risk isn't obvious at first. Of course its risky, but no more risky than chasing the traditional family sphere.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 09:16:52PM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: This is not just an Indian thing. It is traditional in Canada to have a cottage or cabin at the lake, and there are so many lakes that Same thing in Finnland, presumably. even people of very modest means can often manage to have one. These are passed down in families. When I was working at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, there was this guy on my team who'd married into a family where a bunch of sisters had cabins near Parry Sound (http://g.co/maps/9hu46) - most of these women were traditional full-time Moms, and in Summer, would decamp with the kids en masse for the cabin. Their husbands would drive 5 hours up to the cabin to spend the weekends, when they could.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:25 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: But, Cheeni, you criticise Shiv for terming it dharma vs adharmabut when you call it a silent killer of the night (I remembered Bhopal when I read that)...you too, take a judgemental stance. It is a silent killer because it killed the old ways; that doesn't imply moral judgement - assassins of the night can be for the good too. It's merely an observation. What's clear is that the old ways had flaws, but I am worried if we have not thrown out the baby with the bath water. I don't know, I'm rather agnostic on this issue. The new way of the individual is new to humanity - it's never been attempted at this scale heretofore. Barring the mendicants and eccentrics, the way of society has almost always revolved around the family and the tribe. Affluence is definitely a prime culprit - during the zenith of the Imperium Romanum there was a similar crisis when free Romans didn't want to marry, because it was a drag, orgies were much fun. Roman society had to introduce a variety of incentives to promote marriage and the family. The tax benefits handed to married couples in modern societies comes directly from those times. Today as a society we have a lot of affluence and freedom, and barring a few decades of nuclear threat under the cold war the existential threat to the race isn't something that keeps us up at night. Society therefore will naturally drift towards more freedom and choice. Of course all it takes is one nasty decade and the tide will turn. Exercising freedom needs a lot of discipline and wisdom which isn't possessed by more than a few. After the fall of Communism, America - the land of the rugged individual was questioning the role of the State, but all it took was a single 9/11 for the State to come rolling into everyone's lives with intrusive laws and coercive policies at the clamoring invitation of the people. Now that the shadow of terrorism no longer hovers over the USA we see a creeping increase in rhetoric that questions the value of the state. The same dilemma plays out at the level of the individual and the family. We love our freedoms, but we are like babies who run back to the mother at the first hint of trouble.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 4:35 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: With India's historical disdain for the humanities, neither historian nor sociologist was around to fully record or explain the scale of the destruction. Srini this is wrong. The history and and sociologuists merely wroet out their biases and paid no attention to the Indian tradition of historical continuity my mens of an oral tradition. I agree that there's been no dearth of half baked theories that need avoiding, my favorite is the Noble Savage phenomenon (there's a hilarious text I recall that tried very hard to make the case that the Toda Tribes of Nilgiris were in fact one of the lost tribes of Israel), but that's digressing. I believe you've grasped the wrong import from my statement. There is a good reason the printing press wasn't invented in India - Indians weren't very big on writing things down for consumption. If you didn't learn it at the knees of your master you didn't learn - period. It is true that sociologists and historians are not solely a Western creation. And, in India the written record is quite strong when it comes to accounting - land grants to temples and war settlements are dutifully recorded in stone, brass plates and parchment right back to the start of recorded time. However, when it comes to recording the usual kinds of history India has lagged behind the rest of the world, and even China by a lot. Hagiographic records aren't solely an Indian phenomenon either, but there's not much of that either - sadly, oral record was preferred over the written as an instrument of caste control - the oral tradition preserved the transmission of knowledge within the permitted castes as the story of Ekalavya describes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekalavya When it came to oral records Indians are definitely the masters - the Vedas have multiple checksums in them to prevent their corruption during transmission. It's no mean feat to transmit a complex text over millennia purely through oral means, but it's such a wasted effort - they had knowledge of writing all along and could have just written it down. The other thing is Indians of late don't seem to be a very introspective sort. Of course there are exceptions, but in general there are very few records from commoners in the last century. This is a rather recent phenomenon - there have been many great thinkers in the past, but again their mental efforts were lost to subsequent generations thanks to the peculiar Indian disdain for writing things down - we see this from the snatches of history that survive - the theological and philosophical debates of Adi Shankara are well recorded by his disciples, like the popular song bhaja govindam, but unlike Socrates, most Indian philosophers weren't so lucky as to have a Plato recording everything they said. Maharishi Kapila for example is more or less lost to the modern Indian. Even the well recorded teachings of the Buddha are rarely dissected in modern India, but one would hope that the person the Bahagavad Gita describes as equal to Krishna, and whom Buddha considers his spiritual master would merit some analysis. The art of analysis and introspection is lost in modern India. To compare if I were to hold up the world leader in navel gazing, the United States, the number of battle records and account of valor and martial prowess that have been recorded both in the first person and otherwise are innumerable. WWII and Vietnam alone must account for a good sized library of stories. With the number of battles and the enormous population of India our record of this sort of thing should respectfully stack up against any number of American histories, but sadly it doesn't. I think we've had no choice but to acknowledge we suck at athletic sport, let's come out on history and writing too.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Thursday 29 Mar 2012 10:12:14 pm Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: but in general there are very few records from commoners in the last century. Srini there are thousands upon thousands of records. The internet is nowadays bursting with them. Many are oral but an increasing number are documented. Many are now being documented as family narratives, and some of those are dismissed as being communalist or as examples of Indian inability to write objective history. You are nerely glossing over your own ignorance of them and giving prominence to what you have been taught is real history. shiv
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote: We've kind of had to modify our habits a lot Safe options like parks, the beach, temples etc. And movies if any, only of the happy feet, alvin and the chipmunks etc variety -- srs (blackberry) This is not as easy as it sounds. Movies and plays are out of the question, since the kid can't be trusted to keep quiet. Pubs are completely out- noise, smoke, Lady Gaga, etc. In addition, kids need to sleep early, so you can't stay out too late. certainly, your social habits will change -- * Pubs - are out (never a fan of pubs or lady gaga myself...but wine tastings are fine though ) * Movies (yeah the variety mentioned above though i have had success with wallace and grommit...shaun the sheep ... and such which are much better fare than 'happy feet' for the parent) * Music and Dance (watching, and also taking a class ... seems to work out fine with kids above 3 ) * horse riding (kids above 3) * swimming (even with 1 year olds ) * Painting
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:35 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday 28 Mar 2012 5:01:51 am Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:50 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k566/bennedose/LRM-intro-ii-part.jpg This one classified human races as possibly being as different as chmpanzes and gorillas. this is what your grandfather was possibly fed. Mine certainly was. http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k566/bennedose/LRM-263part.jpg Read it all: The gross corruptions of the Vedic Aryans was due to their intermingling with black heathendom interesting. i still remember my dear grandmother (unfortunately passed on now) asking me if i had any negro friends (note: the terms negro was not said in a derogatory way, but quaint english use... but the idea of inferiority was perhaps there ) . One look at the classics will tell you that it was a sin against tradition to cross the oceans, or travel other than when forced by trade or religion. Thus as a classical society India has always been ill prepared to deal with personal mobility. Not true. Mobility was quite OK all the way into Africa and the far East. The trading links with those areas, and the temples of Angkor Wat suggest no such restriction in the remote past My own grandfather, the owner of the book whose pages are scanned above was himself ostracized for going abroad, and the habit finds mention in mathematician AK Ramanujam's biography. But this was a more recent Brahmin reaction to threats that they faced. Clearly not all Brahmins gave a damn about such threats. I have some interesting anecdotes about how my grandfather showed the middle finger to thse types. In the socialist years, if you moved across the country it was usually for a government job, and the State played parent and guardian to its favorite sons, if it I think you are leaving out about 3000 years of history of free movement here. i had a couple of grand uncles who moved to Burma for a long time had a life there (with burmese wives etc. ). One of my cousins did a lot of research on the family tree - and there was anecdotal evidence to suggest that one branch of the family had migrated from western india around 300 years ago ...
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:54 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: But I think the focus will have to shift outside India to find out who thought up the idea of a 40 hour week. I recall that when I was a boy, most developed western nations had only Sunday off and maybe half day Saturday. I vaguely recall the time that work week was reduced to 5 days a week and 8 hours a day. 5 days a week 8 hours a day is unnatural. It is unnatural for the police, doctors, firemen and a whole lot of others. It is unnatural for farmers and soldiers. Unnatural for seamen and fishermen. It seems normal only for employees working for someone. Henry Ford introduced 40-hour week for the assembly line on May 1st - Labour Day. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-factory-workers-get-40-hour-week Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford#The_five-dollar_workday Other industry players initially whined and complained but soon followed suit when they saw the productivity gains. -- Vinayak
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wednesday 28 Mar 2012 3:07:13 pm ashok _ wrote: interesting. i still remember my dear grandmother (unfortunately passed on now) asking me if i had any negro friends (note: the terms negro was not said in a derogatory way, but quaint english use... but the idea of inferiority was perhaps there ) . Its called linguistic fractal recursivity. The colonized takes on the attitudes of the coloniser even while referring to a sub group among his own. I apologize if I have posted this before on Silk. In the 1960s my parents bought a (45 RPM) gramophone record of Nursery Rhymes for their darling babies. Among many. It featured one particular nursery rhyme that I have uploaded to YouTube Ten Little Nigger Boys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkb4rP6Jq1Q shiv
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wednesday 28 Mar 2012 9:36:06 am Deepa Mohan wrote: My sambandhi (child's spouse's parents are sambandhi or those who have a tie) used a perceptive phrase...he said, we are not human beings but human doings. We can rarely just be. Interesting. Is that in Tamil? It is clearly of Sanskrit origin and the bandhi part shows up links with Latin as in bind or bond. I think the actual word is sama + bandhi. sama means equal (as in same) Same- bond==Sambandhi In Kannada the word used for your son's (or daughter's) in-laws is beegaru. Beegaru (Beega=the father, Beegithi=mother) are to be given the utmost respect and never slighted or insulted in any way. Funny how Kannada and Tamil have so many similarities as well as wild differences. shiv
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:24 AM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: [...] But regular time off once a week is alien in India, cruel as it may sound. If you look at Indian businessmen, traders, farmers and priests there is no concept of taking one day off in a week. Oh yes people take time off regularly every day. Maybe they sleep every afternoon, and take time off for festivals. On the street outside my house street vendors, male or female are there every day of the week. but during some festivals - notably Pongal or Dussehra they vanish for several weeks at a stretch. This is the very complaint Indian employers have about unskilled Indian labor. If you are constructing a house in India, work will come to a standstill during some festivals, even if it goes on day in and day out 7 days a week. [...] But I think the focus will have to shift outside India to find out who thought up the idea of a 40 hour week. I recall that when I was a boy, most developed western nations had only Sunday off and maybe half day Saturday. I vaguely recall the time that work week was reduced to 5 days a week and 8 hours a day. 5 days a week 8 hours a day is unnatural. It is unnatural for the police, doctors, firemen and a whole lot of others. It is unnatural for farmers and soldiers. Unnatural for seamen and fishermen. It seems normal only for employees working for someone. There is one sociologist called Robert Castel who describes the process by which workers were disciplined to work as today. To have a separation between work time and non-work time. It was not always like that even in the late XIX and early XX century. The 40 hour work week came as a worker conquest and came as kind of a consequence of the way society and economy were structured after WWII. Salaries to workers were increased and they got time off so they would not only be producers, but also consumers of mass produced-goods. Before that time there was no expectation that workers would be entitled to paid time off, or that they would be required to work through festivals. It was just as you describe for India. Andre
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On 3/27/12 5:39 PM March 27, 2012, John Sundman wrote: 1) I remain grateful for having been invited to this list. I enjoy it very much, even if many of the references and allusions elude me. This is true for me as well. 2) About children and day night care: I, a parent with 75+ parent-years' experience, am very reluctant to judge how other presumably well-meaning people handle their parental responsibilities. I gulped when I read the “75+ parent-years' experience” and then did my own arithmetic. I, a parent with 100+ parent-years' experience, am not interested in judging how other parents handle their responsibilities. I do, however, feel sad for people who are so enmeshed in the rat race that they are largely separated from their families. My grandparents' generation was raised on farms in an extended family where they worked together and cared for one another. As a young adult, I observed that, even in old age, my grandparents were closer to their siblings than I had ever been or would ever be with mine. My parents' generation and mine had been raised in a more industrial model, with nursery schools and babysitters, and early compulsory education. As a result, we were more independent and more isolated than previous generations. My grandparents had a connection with and support from their siblings that served them throughout their lives. My grandmother and my grandfather's sister, now both in their 90s, still have that connection. When our eldest was born, it would have been quite natural for us to put her in daycare full-time and continue our hectic high-tech careers. What we chose to do instead was to negotiate schedules where we could reduce our hours somewhat and work mostly from home. When it came time for the oldest to start school, she had a baby sister. Again, it would have been natural to send the eldest to a carefully-chosen school. I realized that, if we did that, the sisters would likely never be very close. Their lives would be worlds apart. So we chose to start homeschooling, and that choice threw us into an entirely different way of being. We were fortunate to have the options that we had. A lot of people don't have that kind of flexibility in their work, and lack the job skill set to create the kinds of options that we created for ourselves. The parents in this article, and all parents, do the best they can. I often wonder, however, whether parents think about the long-term effects of some of the most basic choices they make. So much of the connection between children and parents comes from spending time together. It comes from sharing mundane chores like feedings and nappy changes and cooking and cleaning and laundry. It comes from negotiating ways to get through all the things we need to do to keep our lives running. It comes from a shared history, shared memories, family jokes, certain ways of doing things. If parents work 12 hours a day, it is no wonder they balk at the thought of coming home and cajoling a cranky child through the end-of-day chores. They want some time to unwind, to enjoy themselves, to take advantage of the fruits of their hard work. So better, perhaps, to have the baby in night care and let someone else handle the end-of-day crankiness. Childhood, however, is fleeting. Before you know it, that little bundle is taller than you are, wearing enormous shoes, and eager to be off on his own independent life. Those childhood years will not come again, and whatever you missed (the first step, the first time they sounded out the words in a picture book, helping them with their algebra, companionable times cooking together and cleaning the kitchen) is gone for good. The foundation of your relationship with your children is laid during their childhoods, and there are no backsies. I don't think that it was worth it to trade in the extended family for industrial society. I think it has led to generations of people who are far more stressed and depressed than previous generations. I think that people traded away something that is essential to human happiness so they could have more stuff. It was a bad deal for them, but it so quickly became the norm that it's hard, now, to move in the other direction. -- Heather Madrone (heat...@madrone.com) http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is power correcting everything that stands against love. - Martin Luther King
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:25 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: I cannot believe that the old system was always good; the concept of family before self, of duty before self, did, in my opinion, lead to a lot of bad practices, and deep unhappiness. This was especially so when a person did not believe implicitly in this concept. For better or worse (obviously, you two feel it was for worse), the change has come to stay. We are now cocooned in individuality; but yet, I feel that we are quite connected to our families and to our friends. [Most of this should apply to any set of peoples of the world from a few hundred to a few years back really, but I'll limit this to the TamBram community since that has personal relevance to many here.] There are three spheres of an individual's personality, the personal, the familial and the societal. In traditional Indian societies the personal was always the smallest, most neglected sphere with very little space available for individual expression. The societal as well as the family received the most attention. In what are considered definitely personal choices today, such as the choice of a spouse or career one often had little or no say in a traditional society. The choice was made keeping in mind the preservation of familial and societal ties. The Tambram agraharam was a socio-familial-professional housing project, where one lived cheek by jowl with friends, relatives and colleagues. The strongest punishment that could be meted out by society was expulsion from this tribal housing project because it represented the sum total of one's identity. Thus the workplace was a place for the family and the society to intermingle, it wasn't uncommon to have the shop or workplace in the front of the building and the home attached to the rear. None of the gross income inequalities of market-capitalism today could exist under a system where the sources of income were shared; it was socialism of a kind before there was a word for it. Early military traditions recognized the importance of the tribal bond, and the military unit under which one serves is family and society for men away from their real families and society. Let's consider now how modernity and the tribe of one have changed all this. The modern workplace is not guaranteed for life, one cannot construct an identity of society and family around one's employer, not when our jobs change every 3-4 years. Nor can one count one's colleagues as friends or relatives. When we work in merit based occupations, our colleagues are chosen solely by their ability to do their jobs, and not necessarily for any of their other companionable traits. And our careers are often chosen for flexibility and ampleness of opportunity and income. Thus the modern career leaves behind the familial and societal spheres and enters the personal sphere. Once career becomes personal, the power equation between the spheres of life has shifted drastically. People who desire choice in their career will also desire a choice in their partner, in their beliefs, in their religion, in their social circle, in every aspect of life primarily because there's no coercive counter force. Once career leaves the societal and familial circle there is no control left over the individual for society to exert, thus we see more and more expansion of the personal sphere. Once there's a critical mass of personal decisions made it becomes expensive to maintain all three spheres - endless justification of one's personal decisions to society and family can be demanding, increasing the concentration of our lives around the personal sphere. This is also termed in the West as self actualization and individual development, which on the face of it is a jolly good idea. In a way this is freedom, but it is also lack of insurance, a lack of a frame of reference. Human beings seek happiness and direction through comparison. With the reduction of family and society's role in our lives, our comparison scope is left impossibly open or wide. It is no longer possible to compare oneself against the finite 30 or 40 families in an agraharam. It becomes harder and harder in fact to find other individuals who made the exact same set of choices in life, and this makes comparison difficult. It becomes necessary therefore to create artifices that create the illusion of comparison when we can't find equals to compare against. Driven by a desire to make the comparison at any cost we often trap ourselves into a limited dimension, such as material wealth and possessions that reasonably translates across all people. Wealth is a moving target of course, and leaves one very open to the vagaries of economics and there's no generational stability like one used to have with reputation and family heritage. If one refuses to make such crass comparisons then one invites fear, which is the natural human response to the unknown. Chasing the personal sphere is risky - it is the way
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
Wealth is a moving target of course, and leaves one very open to the vagaries of economics and there's no generational stability like one used to have with reputation and family heritage. On the other hand, reputation inheritance has had substantially higher problems with slotting, caste system and all which comes with it. A system that ignores the merits and choices of the individual, in an age where communication across geographical boundaries is not an issue, is bound to collapse, unless bound by totalitarian force. The Chasing the personal sphere is risky - it is the way of the world today - but it is risky - and worst of all this risk isn't obvious at first. Nor is the risk with a totalitarian or family imposed system, at first, if you are within that system. It's very different to look at personal choice from the vantage point that gives you the freedom to choose, and very different to be in the inside of where a personal choice was always inferior to the whims, fancies, orders of a patriarch, a military ruler or a religious leader. The risk of a system is not apparent to those that it envelops, especially when basic needs are satisfied. Kind of like having all the toys in the world inside a room but killer dobermans walking outside. The question of why can't we go out isn't evident on the inside. To balance the personal with the social and familial is a tough thing to do in the modern world where choices are increasingly personal because the personal has a short-termist appeal to the curious. I can't agree with this; personal choices make for brilliant long term thinking. Which to me explains why, in those olden ages, people went off to the mountains to meditate. If you wanted to think longer term, you needed to get out of society which always bound you to the short term.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wednesday 28 Mar 2012 9:33:51 pm Heather Madrone wrote: I don't think that it was worth it to trade in the extended family for industrial society. I think it has led to generations of people who are far more stressed and depressed than previous generations. I think that people traded away something that is essential to human happiness so they could have more stuff. It was a bad deal for them, but it so quickly became the norm that it's hard, now, to move in the other direction. +1 What Heather is talking about is dharma or social duties of man. shiv
[silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
Saritha Rai's new fortnightly column in the New York Times online- http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-into-night-care / How do you all feel about it? Deepa.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On 27-Mar-12 1:49 PM, Deepa Mohan wrote: Saritha Rai's new fortnightly column in the New York Times online- http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-into-night-care / How do you all feel about it? This actually seems like an extension of the 40 hour week thread, in a sense. :-\ This is a logical thing, if you ask me. Given that there exist parents who work, childcare is a necessity. And a business opportunity. Saritha (who is on this list, but is part of the lurking masses) must have many other stories that didn't make it into the article. Care to share, Saritha? Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Mar 27, 2012 10:21 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: Saritha Rai's new fortnightly column in the New York Times online- http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-into-night-care Not that long ago a major controversy broke out in Switzerland when one of the affected children, now in his retirement years wrote a book detailing his life. Until the 1950s the conservative Swiss politicians and by extension society backed a secret policy that allowed the state to separate infants from incapable mothers. Incapable mothers so defined would be teenage mothers, pre-marital mothers, single mothers, mothers who worked when the father also worked , mothers of loose moral character and so on. These snatched infants would then be raised in proper foster homes, families with the proper structure of both parents, a large home, siblings, relatives and such. Of course they'd over stepped the line and the practice stopped, but even today normal Swiss society frowns intensely upon working mothers. Such day and night care services as the article talks about would be almost definitely illegal. In fact, the schools don't act as proxy care takers during the day either - they begin at 7:30 in the morning, break at 10:00, kids come home, they resume at 2:00; to let out at 5:00. Kids who are seen loitering the streets are reported to the parents first, and then the local church and at some point the city council steps in if they think the parents aren't doing a good job. I have no doubt that by Swiss standards the featured Indian parents would be considered grossly negligent to say the least. I can't directly evaluate the outcomes of this policy, still, most Swiss teens I know are among the best behaved. The loud drunk Swiss teen on a Friday evening is known to apologize for his behaviour rather shame-facedly when the passing old ladies turn on their disapproving gaze. Crime and truancy is impossibly low, kids generally seem to end up growing into proper citizens. Now there could be many other hidden and obvious aspects to this picture, but popular wisdom generally attributes all this to stay at home mothers and wholesome families.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
Appalled by the parents mentioned in the article. Gross negligence by any standards. Why have kids in the first place? - Original message - From: Srini RamaKrishnan [1]che...@gmail.com To: [2]silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:13:52 +0200 On Mar 27, 2012 10:21 AM, Deepa Mohan [3]mohande...@gmail.com wrote: Saritha Rai's new fortnightly column in the New York Times online- [4]http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-i nto-night-care Not that long ago a major controversy broke out in Switzerland when one of the affected children, now in his retirement years wrote a book detailing his life. Until the 1950s the conservative Swiss politicians and by extension society backed a secret policy that allowed the state to separate infants from incapable mothers. Incapable mothers so defined would be teenage mothers, pre-marital mothers, single mothers, mothers who worked when the father also worked , mothers of loose moral character and so on. These snatched infants would then be raised in proper foster homes, families with the proper structure of both parents, a large home, siblings, relatives and such. Of course they'd over stepped the line and the practice stopped, but even today normal Swiss society frowns intensely upon working mothers. Such day and night care services as the article talks about would be almost definitely illegal. In fact, the schools don't act as proxy care takers during the day either - they begin at 7:30 in the morning, break at 10:00, kids come home, they resume at 2:00; to let out at 5:00. Kids who are seen loitering the streets are reported to the parents first, and then the local church and at some point the city council steps in if they think the parents aren't doing a good job. I have no doubt that by Swiss standards the featured Indian parents would be considered grossly negligent to say the least. I can't directly evaluate the outcomes of this policy, still, most Swiss teens I know are among the best behaved. The loud drunk Swiss teen on a Friday evening is known to apologize for his behaviour rather shame-facedly when the passing old ladies turn on their disapproving gaze. Crime and truancy is impossibly low, kids generally seem to end up growing into proper citizens. Now there could be many other hidden and obvious aspects to this picture, but popular wisdom generally attributes all this to stay at home mothers and wholesome families. References 1. mailto:che...@gmail.com 2. mailto:silklist@lists.hserus.net 3. mailto:mohande...@gmail.com 4. http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-into-night-care
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
Biju Chacko [27/03/12 19:22 +0530]: The unspoken assumption in both this thread and the 40-hour week one that anyone who sacrifices family or personal time for work is a bad parent is, quite frankly, elitist crap. Sexist too, because it's the mothers who face the brunt of criticism. agree 100%. With 2 kids, 57k a month in a house loan to pay off, etc etc I'm sort of glad both sets of parents, mine and my wife's, live close enough to help take care of the kids. and as for 40 hours - whoever wrote that bull hasn't had to work with teams that are based half in the USA and half in hong kong, I see .. nor has he had to really work for a living. As in - if the tasks he has on his plate fill 40 hours a week no more, no less, he's really lucky, or maybe partially employed with a decent private income from somewhere that lets him work 40 hours a week.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: Saritha Rai's new fortnightly column in the New York Times online- http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-into-night-care / How do you all feel about it? I dont get the night care part. can't they go out with their kids in the evening ... why leave them at home ?
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Chetan Nagendra che...@nagster.org wrote: Appalled by the parents mentioned in the article. Gross negligence by any standards. Why have kids in the first place? Every couple of months we go through a panic stricken routine of trying to replace our nanny. I've been lucky enough to be working for relatively understanding employers who've tolerated weeks of working from home. Chetanit's not that simple as 'having kids' or 'not'.nor can we judge those who have to let others take care of their children, day or night (or both). In an ideal world, one, or the other, or both, parents could devote the whole time to the raising of the children...but real life is not like that. In this, as in almost everything, we walk the fine line of major compromise between a lot of things. Torn by guilt at the ways in which we accomodate our realities, and yet trying to do our best, we pursue our careers, bring up our children, take care of our parents...we make our own ways through the maze of living. My grand-daughter spends the whole day in day care, and it was because I contracted with my daughter to take care of her at home for a year, that she was able to stay at home until she was past a year old. Otherwise, there would have been no alternative. And though it hurt to put a one-year-old in day care...I see children as young as four weeks in day care...and they must, I have to say, seem none the worse for it...at least in the day care I am talking about. One of the parents giving up the job is not, as Biju says, an option. And what happens if there is a divorce or death? Can one parent manage a job and the children alone? Those of us who are lucky enough to be able to care for our children at home...or have parents to help...we have to appreciate our luck, that's all. D.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Tuesday 27 Mar 2012 1:49:54 pm Deepa Mohan wrote: Saritha Rai's new fortnightly column in the New York Times online- http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-into-night-car e / How do you all feel about it? Deepa. For the heck of it I post a slightly edited version of something I said elsewhere. The language was designed to trigger particular switches in the target audience :D Children need mummies and daddies to grow up as healthy well adjusted individuals. The institution of marriage evolved for just this purpose and it was aided by joint families. The institution of marriage unfortunately trampled on women's freedom and rights. The women's rights movement and the desire to set free female sexuality from the burden of childbirth led to the development of contraception and laws that dissolved marriage more easily. That in turn led to societies in which multiple sexual partners for male and female became easier as part of freedom. Single mothers by choice also became more common without having to face criticism from society for having a baby outside of marriage. But children are themselves an economic burden and a restriction of freedom as is marriage. So couples without marriage and without kids are the ultimate in financial and physical happiness. This is the ultimate freedom. Marriage and children are bonds that reduce physical, emotional and financial freedom. Freedom from these bonds constitutes modernity. Archaic and oudated societies such as Hindu society encourage freedom restricting ideas like Dharma. Dharma demands the bondage of marriage and children as a duty. Dharma restricts freedom and by insisting that couples have children. This is a disaster for individual freedom and wealth. I am sure the state can look after children as happens in advanced countries and old people can go to old age homes courtesy the state. This gives people a lot more freedom. Sexual freedom. Financial freedom. Freedom to travel. etc. Every individual has to decide for himself what he wants. You could choose the route of bondage and outdated laws and restriction of freedom. Or you could choose a free society. The former conforms to dharma, the latter is adharma. shiv
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
This is not as easy as it sounds. Movies and plays are out of the question, since the kid can't be trusted to keep quiet. Pubs are completely out- noise, smoke, Lady Gaga, etc. In addition, kids need to sleep early, so you can't stay out too late. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 8:11 PM, ashok _ listmans...@gmail.com wrote: I dont get the night care part. can't they go out with their kids in the evening ... why leave them at home ?
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Mar 27, 2012 10:21 AM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: Saritha Rai's new fortnightly column in the New York Times online- http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/27/when-daycare-slips-into-night-care Not that long ago a major controversy broke out in Switzerland when one of the affected children, now in his retirement years wrote a book detailing his life. snip / I have no doubt that by Swiss standards the featured Indian parents would be considered grossly negligent to say the least. The same argument is often used in terms of : poor parents are negligent (cannot afford nutritious food) single parents are negligent (shouldnt you be married ) working parents are negligent (reasons above) same-sex parents are negligent (turn kids into homos) etc... fact of the matter is when you are a parent, people give advice on how you should be a better parent whether you want advice or notin many cases people who have never had kids give you advice on how to be a better parent. concluding negligence is just another form of such advice :-)
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:50 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: The former conforms to dharma, the latter is adharma. The many liberated Communist states have their favorite coping phrases to describe their transition to a market economy and its effect on society. When human and economic dreams soared and crashed unpredictably, and when the emptiness of communism was replaced by the emptiness of capitalism. When chaos prevailed. India went through an even greater transition in the last 70 some independent years, second only to the Chinese cultural revolution, and yet it's gone unnoticed. Like the silent killer of the night, inconspicuous yet deadly. Under the literate tradition of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and later the Nehru - Gandhi dynasty, a cultural and western educated elite operating presumably centuries ahead in their thought than their obedient compatriots, three hundred million people used to an alien hand on the leash, allowed themselves to be led. India leaped from a classical age of temples, society, rituals, castes and traditions headlong into the bureaucratic equality and rationed guarantees of socialism and then the shunned embraces of market capitalism. For a vocal democracy capable of great bloodshed this was a rather boring bureaucratic revolution. With India's historical disdain for the humanities, neither historian nor sociologist was around to fully record or explain the scale of the destruction. And thus, inside the heads of most upwardly mobile urban Indians today there's a very poorly formed sense of society and family, and an even less formed sense of self. Since the revolution was never announced other than as a fait accompli, most Indians never fully grasped the enormity of the change, nor of the havoc it was going to wreak on family, hearth and home. One look at the classics will tell you that it was a sin against tradition to cross the oceans, or travel other than when forced by trade or religion. Thus as a classical society India has always been ill prepared to deal with personal mobility. In the socialist years, if you moved across the country it was usually for a government job, and the State played parent and guardian to its favorite sons, if it willed them back and forth across hill, valley and plain it also offered useful excuses and lodgings that preserved morality. There was a fatalistic appeal that this held to the Hindu traditions, if the master willed, who was the servant to object after all. Yet when the capitalist chapter began Indian society didn't really have any of the tools to deal with the consequent personal mobility, not even the helpful fatalistic attitude. After all it is clear that personal decisions are being made here. The personal sphere that has remained silent for millennia in Indian society, a slave to the family and society is now unlocked, and instead of fighting the forces that caused it to be liberated - and of what use would that be, the enemy is invisible and long gone - the Indians fight each other. Father against son, family against freedoms, ambition against tradition. Dharma vs adharma is phrasing it unhelpfully. India needs to learn to cope as a nation with this new balance of the personal, the familial and the social. Sadly there isn't any conscious public debate of any significance, nor is it feasible any more to lead by the leash. So it plays out in a billion internecine conflicts and clashes. As the Americans say, it will get worse before it gets better. Cheeni
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
Saritha Rai's article only examines the lives of MNC employed parents. Are there no other parents in Bangalore or is that her mandate - examine only the lives of the wealthy?
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:50 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: The former conforms to dharma, the latter is adharma. India went through an even greater transition in the last 70 some independent years, second only to the Chinese cultural revolution, and yet it's gone unnoticed. Like the silent killer of the night, inconspicuous yet deadly. Cheeni...that was so impressive. I had not thought of it as a cultural revolution, and that is, of course, what it has been. But, Cheeni, you criticise Shiv for terming it dharma vs adharmabut when you call it a silent killer of the night (I remembered Bhopal when I read that)...you too, take a judgemental stance. I cannot believe that the old system was always good; the concept of family before self, of duty before self, did, in my opinion, lead to a lot of bad practices, and deep unhappiness. This was especially so when a person did not believe implicitly in this concept. For better or worse (obviously, you two feel it was for worse), the change has come to stay. We are now cocooned in individuality; but yet, I feel that we are quite connected to our families and to our friends. The question of who will care for the children has always been a complex one, and continues to be so. I, for one, would rather have parents drop off their children at a night care, even if they are partying, than either drag them to unsuitable places, or stay at home with them and vent their frustration on them. I have seen this happen so often in the old family system. A constant refrain of I gave up a, b, c, for you, be grateful to me is like the Chinese water torturea constant drip, drip, drip of mental tyranny. What is old is familiar, but for that reason, it cannot be held to be universally good. We just have to accept that many parents today cannot quit their jobs and be with *their* parents; they have to lead a lifestyle different from their parents' and they have to accept solutions about child care, that are different. Hmm...I wish I was as articulate as Cheeni or Shiv is...I'm just trying to say, we have to accept the new realities and not hanker after the old, seeing them through the rose-tinted glasses of selective memory and hallowed traditions. Deepa.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Mar 27, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:50 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: The former conforms to dharma, the latter is adharma. India went through an even greater transition in the last 70 some independent years, second only to the Chinese cultural revolution, and yet it's gone unnoticed. Like the silent killer of the night, inconspicuous yet deadly. Under the literate tradition of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and later the Nehru - Gandhi dynasty, a cultural and western educated elite operating presumably centuries ahead in their thought than their obedient compatriots, three hundred million people used to an alien hand on the leash, allowed themselves to be led. India leaped from a classical age of temples, society, rituals, castes and traditions headlong into the bureaucratic equality and rationed guarantees of socialism and then the shunned embraces of market capitalism. For a vocal democracy capable of great bloodshed this was a rather boring bureaucratic revolution. With India's historical disdain for the humanities, neither historian nor sociologist was around to fully record or explain the scale of the destruction. And thus, inside the heads of most upwardly mobile urban Indians today there's a very poorly formed sense of society and family, and an even less formed sense of self. Since the revolution was never announced other than as a fait accompli, most Indians never fully grasped the enormity of the change, nor of the havoc it was going to wreak on family, hearth and home. I'm an American profoundly ignorant of Indian history, culture(s), politics and current trends. I offer thus a few highly abstracted observations: 1) I remain grateful for having been invited to this list. I enjoy it very much, even if many of the references and allusions elude me. 2) About children and day night care: I, a parent with 75+ parent-years' experience, am very reluctant to judge how other presumably well-meaning people handle their parental responsibilities. I do believe it is the moral obligation of disinterested outsiders to protect children from their parents and family when said parents and family are not seeing to the basic emotional and physical needs of their own children. But although the NYT story that started this thread made me a bit uneasy, I didn't see anything that set off the proverbial alarm bells. And, as an American who is completely untuned to Indian/Bangalorean cultural frequencies, I disqualify myself from further judgement. 3) When I was 19 years old, a college freshman (Hamilton College, Clinton, NY), on a whim I enrolled in a course in cultural anthropology. I found it totally enthralling, and went on to take an undergraduate degree in that field. In anthropology, (at least as it was studied back then when dinosaurs roamed the earth), culture is/was more or less defined as the consensus view of members of a society on shared values, stories and ways of seeing things. (We'll skirt for now the definition of 'society'). It seems to me that in 2012 virtually all societies on earth are dealing with rapid, profound, unsettling change. But in some places, such as the USA, the changes are basically the result of conflicts and intermixing of relatively modern sub-cultures. In places like India and China, as far as I can tell, what's going on is the conflict and intermixing of traditional (pre-scientific, sometimes pre-literate) sub-cultures with hyper-modern ones. As an outsider, I find these transformations endlessly fascinating, even though, as I've said, I do accept that I'm missing 90+ % of the story because I don't understand the cultural/historical context. But it's still fascinating. jrs
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
- Original Message - From: John Sundman j...@wetmachine.com To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Cc: Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2012 6:09 AM Subject: Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore On Mar 27, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:50 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: The former conforms to dharma, the latter is adharma. India went through an even greater transition in the last 70 some independent years, second only to the Chinese cultural revolution, and yet it's gone unnoticed. Like the silent killer of the night, inconspicuous yet deadly. Under the literate tradition of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and later the Nehru - Gandhi dynasty, a cultural and western educated elite operating presumably centuries ahead in their thought than their obedient compatriots, three hundred million people used to an alien hand on the leash, allowed themselves to be led. India leaped from a classical age of temples, society, rituals, castes and traditions headlong into the bureaucratic equality and rationed guarantees of socialism and then the shunned embraces of market capitalism. For a vocal democracy capable of great bloodshed this was a rather boring bureaucratic revolution. With India's historical disdain for the humanities, neither historian nor sociologist was around to fully record or explain the scale of the destruction. And thus, inside the heads of most upwardly mobile urban Indians today there's a very poorly formed sense of society and family, and an even less formed sense of self. Since the revolution was never announced other than as a fait accompli, most Indians never fully grasped the enormity of the change, nor of the havoc it was going to wreak on family, hearth and home. I'm an American profoundly ignorant of Indian history, culture(s), politics and current trends. I offer thus a few highly abstracted observations: 1) I remain grateful for having been invited to this list. I enjoy it very much, even if many of the references and allusions elude me. 2) About children and day night care: I, a parent with 75+ parent-years' experience, am very reluctant to judge how other presumably well-meaning people handle their parental responsibilities. I do believe it is the moral obligation of disinterested outsiders to protect children from their parents and family when said parents and family are not seeing to the basic emotional and physical needs of their own children. But although the NYT story that started this thread made me a bit uneasy, I didn't see anything that set off the proverbial alarm bells. And, as an American who is completely untuned to Indian/Bangalorean cultural frequencies, I disqualify myself from further judgement. 3) When I was 19 years old, a college freshman (Hamilton College, Clinton, NY), on a whim I enrolled in a course in cultural anthropology. I found it totally enthralling, and went on to take an undergraduate degree in that field. In anthropology, (at least as it was studied back then when dinosaurs roamed the earth), culture is/was more or less defined as the consensus view of members of a society on shared values, stories and ways of seeing things. (We'll skirt for now the definition of 'society'). It seems to me that in 2012 virtually all societies on earth are dealing with rapid, profound, unsettling change. But in some places, such as the USA, the changes are basically the result of conflicts and intermixing of relatively modern sub-cultures. In places like India and China, as far as I can tell, what's going on is the conflict and intermixing of traditional (pre-scientific, sometimes pre-literate) sub-cultures with hyper-modern ones. As an outsider, I find these transformations endlessly fascinating, even though, as I've said, I do accept that I'm missing 90+ % of the story because I don't understand the cultural/historical context. But it's still fascinating. jrs A minor quibble - perhaps pre-technological would be more accurate than pre-scientific. Although India has had a proto-scientific culture, full-blown scientific theory eluded (and sometimes seems to continue to elude) us. On the other hand, there is a clear divide between pre-technological and post-. I think. Pre-literate presumably refers to the Chinese, since there is no other visible target.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
We've kind of had to modify our habits a lot Safe options like parks, the beach, temples etc. And movies if any, only of the happy feet, alvin and the chipmunks etc variety -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Lahar Appaiah thew...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:48:23 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore This is not as easy as it sounds. Movies and plays are out of the question, since the kid can't be trusted to keep quiet. Pubs are completely out- noise, smoke, Lady Gaga, etc. In addition, kids need to sleep early, so you can't stay out too late. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 8:11 PM, ashok _ listmans...@gmail.com wrote: I dont get the night care part. can't they go out with their kids in the evening ... why leave them at home ?
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
Articulateness versus rhetoric with loaded terminology is always an interesting distinction People in a comfort zone (stay at home spouse, extended family etc available to take care of the kid) aren't the best qualified to comment on this issue Deliberate neglect or abuse, which can happen in either situation, usually gets countered one of two ways - community, which kind of gets lost in a much more anonymous society, or government mandated childcare - which isn't sufficiently developed in India -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:55:40 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net; Saritha Raisarirai...@yahoo.com Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:50 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote: The former conforms to dharma, the latter is adharma. India went through an even greater transition in the last 70 some independent years, second only to the Chinese cultural revolution, and yet it's gone unnoticed. Like the silent killer of the night, inconspicuous yet deadly. Cheeni...that was so impressive. I had not thought of it as a cultural revolution, and that is, of course, what it has been. But, Cheeni, you criticise Shiv for terming it dharma vs adharmabut when you call it a silent killer of the night (I remembered Bhopal when I read that)...you too, take a judgemental stance. I cannot believe that the old system was always good; the concept of family before self, of duty before self, did, in my opinion, lead to a lot of bad practices, and deep unhappiness. This was especially so when a person did not believe implicitly in this concept. For better or worse (obviously, you two feel it was for worse), the change has come to stay. We are now cocooned in individuality; but yet, I feel that we are quite connected to our families and to our friends. The question of who will care for the children has always been a complex one, and continues to be so. I, for one, would rather have parents drop off their children at a night care, even if they are partying, than either drag them to unsuitable places, or stay at home with them and vent their frustration on them. I have seen this happen so often in the old family system. A constant refrain of I gave up a, b, c, for you, be grateful to me is like the Chinese water torturea constant drip, drip, drip of mental tyranny. What is old is familiar, but for that reason, it cannot be held to be universally good. We just have to accept that many parents today cannot quit their jobs and be with *their* parents; they have to lead a lifestyle different from their parents' and they have to accept solutions about child care, that are different. Hmm...I wish I was as articulate as Cheeni or Shiv is...I'm just trying to say, we have to accept the new realities and not hanker after the old, seeing them through the rose-tinted glasses of selective memory and hallowed traditions. Deepa.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
interest concept: women of leisure. in my experience i have only found men to be leisurely.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
We divide the labor a bit. I do all I can that is possible from a laptop (doing our taxes, paying bills ...) and some other stuff occasionally. She does most of the hard stuff - supervising our maidservant etc Besides our collective careers that is -- srs (blackberry) -Original Message- From: Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:09:47 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Reply-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Subject: Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore interest concept: women of leisure. in my experience i have only found men to be leisurely.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com wrote: interest concept: women of leisure. in my experience i have only found men to be leisurely. Leisure is, in itself, quite a concept to muse on! Leisure, I think, is the gap that one can either voluntarily take, or that involuntarily happens, in between things that have to be done. Leisure is the time in which I can do what I want to do...or not do anything. Our hobbies are the most enjoyable way we use our leisure. It's only in this free time that we can actually stop and stare if we wish to. I find, however, that most of us always fill leisure, too, with activity. My sambandhi (child's spouse's parents are sambandhi or those who have a tie) used a perceptive phrase...he said, we are not human beings but human doings. We can rarely just be. I would also make the distinction between people who can make some leisure time voluntarily, and those who cannot. A woman in charge of a household can make the time for her ladies' club meeting; a woman being sent to another city for work has to cancel the leave she has applied for. It was so common for the women and children to go for the summer holiday for four or more weeks, and the man of the house to join them for a much briefer period.
Re: [silk] Fwd: Life and Love in Bangalore
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: It was so common for the women and children to go for the summer holiday for four or more weeks, and the man of the house to join them for a much briefer period. This is not just an Indian thing. It is traditional in Canada to have a cottage or cabin at the lake, and there are so many lakes that even people of very modest means can often manage to have one. These are passed down in families. When I was working at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, there was this guy on my team who'd married into a family where a bunch of sisters had cabins near Parry Sound (http://g.co/maps/9hu46) - most of these women were traditional full-time Moms, and in Summer, would decamp with the kids en masse for the cabin. Their husbands would drive 5 hours up to the cabin to spend the weekends, when they could. -T
