[SLUG] A comparison for fun ...
Why SuSE Why Ubuntu Any useful stuff, I'll put on my wiki. Any flames to trash. For me, I have a paying customer who wants Ubuntu and does NOT want SuSE. As I struggled with the paradigms shift (from SuSE to Ubuntu) many people have been majorly helpful - thanks guys: SuseUbuntu - Easy for simple desktop Easy for simple desktop Easy for complex server Hard for complex server eg Firewall, MASQ, tun setup routing Sysadmin works, is easy, is niceSysadmin patchy, some works, some does not eg system - administration - services see tricks later: update-rc.d RPM is usually easy and lots of infoapt-get is very easy is available about installednot detailed info about packages packages, changed packages, eg apt-get install kubuntu-desktop adds 800M contents of packaghes apt-get remove kubuntu-desktop dels 40K !! multimedia possible multimedia easy - easyubuntu KDE Very clear and obvious Gnome Full of undocumented (obviously) tricks (not really SuSE, but all eg ^L to list hidden files all of SuSE seems to be (not really ubuntu, but see comment re SuSE) KDE minded despite Gnomeeg update-rc.d being the default choice now - I'd really like to see any supporting/debunking comments and any additions to the list James -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] A comparison for fun ...
On Sat, Jul 08, 2006 at 03:30:15PM +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why SuSE Why Ubuntu Any useful stuff, I'll put on my wiki. Any flames to trash. For me, I have a paying customer who wants Ubuntu and does NOT want SuSE. As I struggled with the paradigms shift (from SuSE to Ubuntu) many people have been majorly helpful - thanks guys: Suse Ubuntu - Easy for simple desktop Easy for simple desktop Easy for complex server Hard for complex server eg Firewall, MASQ, tun setup routing Isn't there a ubuntu server distro? Sysadmin works, is easy, is nice Sysadmin patchy, some works, some does not eg system - administration - services see tricks later: update-rc.d There's also a bunch of other ways of doing these things. Like sysvconfig and others. It's just not very well integrated I guess. RPM is usually easy and lots of info apt-get is very easy is available about installed not detailed info about packages packages, changed packages, eg apt-get install kubuntu-desktop adds 800M contents of packaghesapt-get remove kubuntu-desktop dels 40K !! apt-get is kind of a lower level tool. Using aptitude, in both command line and GUI mode (run without arguments) will give you detailed info. If you use aptitude to install, and then remove, it will also take all the dependencies with it. So you won't get the problem with kubuntu-desktop. multimedia possible multimedia easy - easyubuntu KDE Very clear and obviousGnome Full of undocumented (obviously) tricks (not really SuSE, but all eg ^L to list hidden files all of SuSE seems to be (not really ubuntu, but see comment re SuSE) KDE minded despite Gnome eg update-rc.d being the default choice now - I must admit, I use Debian, but Ubuntu is Debian based. Further discussion would be interesting and much appreciated. Byron -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] A comparison for fun ...
On 7/8/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why SuSE Why Ubuntu I've never used SuSE so nothing too useful to contribute however: snip SuseUbuntu - snip RPM is usually easy and lots of infoapt-get is very easy is available about installednot detailed info about packages packages, changed packages, eg apt-get install kubuntu-desktop adds 800M contents of packaghes apt-get remove kubuntu-desktop dels 40K !! Being picky, comparing apt-get and rpm is not really right, comparing yum or whatever other rpm management thingo's are out there now is more appropriate (dpkg is more the equiv for rpm). Not really a comment on main point of your comparison though. For that case apt-cache show package is usually pretty good, although I can see that running it for kubuntu-desktop may not make it crystal clear that it is a meta-package (do rpm distro's have that concept??, if not maybe an additional point to add because it's a good feature). It does however say that the installed size is 40 (it just has heeaps of dependencies :) A more contstructive comment I could add might be that with ubuntu (and debian) you tend to go to one place to get all your packages (ie. their repo's), whereas my (now fairly dated) experience with other distro's is that you tended to need to add other repositries and therefore start to head down dodgy dependency street. Whether this applies to SuSE (or other's anymore) I'm not really sure. Cheers...Steve -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] A comparison for fun ...
quote who=[EMAIL PROTECTED] Suse Ubuntu Easy for complex server Hard for complex server eg Firewall, MASQ, tun setup routing So, I would not describe these as 'complex server' tasks. These are basic network things for which Debian/Ubuntu don't provide an *enormous* amount of built-in clicky-clicky (CLI or GUI, helper tools are still clicky-clicky). On the other hand, for a truly complex server infrastructure, I would not choose anything but Debian/Ubuntu. I have been doing some Red Hat admin again recently, and every task reminds me how much easier life is on Debian and Ubuntu. Partly, this is because Red Hat chose to marginalise RHEL by making it available only to enterprise-paying customers, so the community around RHEL is *significantly* smaller than the communities around Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu. For things like mail server systems, web servers and so on, I would choose the Debian/Ubuntu world without worry. Sysadmin works, is easy, is nice Sysadmin patchy, some works, some does not eg system - administration - services see tricks later: update-rc.d I'm surprised you'd say 'patchy' about a distro that is essentially made by sysadmins, for sysadmins. That has been a delight for me about Debian since I first started using it. When you say 'tricks', I think you mean things that are different and/or that I'm not used to because I don't have as much experience on this platform. How different, really, is update-rc.d to, say, chkconfig? They're both obtuse command line programs. RPM is usually easy and lots of info apt-get is very easy is available about installed not detailed info about packages packages, changed packages, eg apt-get install kubuntu-desktop adds 800M contents of packaghesapt-get remove kubuntu-desktop dels 40K !! Others have answered about apt-get vs. aptitude/synaptic/etc, but... Info about packages is lacking in Debian/Ubuntu? Dude, this is the platform that *drove* modern package management demands. What info are you missing? I'm pretty sure this comes down to I'm familiar with the rpm commands, but not familiar with the apt/dpkg commands - same as above. multimedia possible multimedia easy - easyubuntu KDE Very clear and obviousGnome Full of undocumented (obviously) tricks ...? - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ The cool stuff coming out of freedesktop.org doesn't just happen as the result of an accident with a particle accelerator and a goat: it only happens when people hack on it. - Daniel Stone -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] A comparison for fun ...
On Saturday 08 July 2006 23:11, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Suse Ubuntu Easy for complex server Hard for complex server eg Firewall, MASQ, tun setup routing So, I would not describe these as 'complex server' tasks. These are basic network things for which Debian/Ubuntu don't provide an *enormous* amount of built-in clicky-clicky (CLI or GUI, helper tools are still clicky-clicky). On the other hand, for a truly complex server infrastructure, I would not choose anything but Debian/Ubuntu. I have been doing some Red Hat admin again recently, and every task reminds me how much easier life is on Debian and Ubuntu. Partly, this is because Red Hat chose to marginalise RHEL by making it available only to enterprise-paying customers, so the community around RHEL is *significantly* smaller than the communities around Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu. For things like mail server systems, web servers and so on, I would choose the Debian/Ubuntu world without worry. I've tried a few, settled on guidedog, guarddog. I still see no way of adding these to my firewall rules: iptables -A INPUT -i tun+ -j ACCEPT iptables -A FORWARD -i tun+ -j ACCEPT Sysadmin works, is easy, is nice Sysadmin patchy, some works, some does not eg system - administration - services see tricks later: update-rc.d I'm surprised you'd say 'patchy' about a distro that is essentially made by sysadmins, for sysadmins. That has been a delight for me about Debian since I first started using it. When you say 'tricks', I think you mean things that are different and/or that I'm not used to because I don't have as much experience on this platform. How different, really, is update-rc.d to, say, chkconfig? They're both obtuse command line programs. I want a desktop image saved in .icons. What did I NOT do to find out that ^L will let me see hidden dirs? (grin I asked SLUG) This is IMHO a trick rather than things that are different. An eg of patchy. Specific now: latest dapper 6.06: System - Administration - Services I want to enable bpalogin (which I installed). It is not listed. I select 'help'. It shows a menu, with checkboxes. That's not an option, despite the help display. That's patchy! I'm quite happy with the CLI. If you need the CLI to do stuff then System - Administration - Services should say For more, use update-rc.d RPM is usually easy and lots of info apt-get is very easy is available about installed not detailed info about packages packages, changed packages, eg apt-get install kubuntu-desktop adds 800M contents of packaghes apt-get remove kubuntu-desktop dels 40K !! Others have answered about apt-get vs. aptitude/synaptic/etc, but... Info about packages is lacking in Debian/Ubuntu? Dude, this is the platform that *drove* modern package management demands. What info are you missing? I'm pretty sure this comes down to I'm familiar with the rpm commands, but not familiar with the apt/dpkg commands - same as above. I'm sure that you are correct :-), I'm trying to be objective, so your comments are most usefull. I guess that having spent years using RedHat, the transition to SuSE was quick (1 week to say this is better) and easy. Its clear (and it's been since the release of Dapper) that I'm not finding this transition easy. Specially since I'm jumping in and trying to do fairly complex stuff right off (eg openvpn, with associated firewall setup) multimedia possible multimedia easy - easyubuntu KDE Very clear and obviousGnome Full of undocumented (obviously) tricks Cheers James -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] A comparison for fun ...
quote who=[EMAIL PROTECTED] For things like mail server systems, web servers and so on, I would choose the Debian/Ubuntu world without worry. I've tried a few, settled on guidedog, guarddog. I still see no way of adding these to my firewall rules: iptables -A INPUT -i tun+ -j ACCEPT iptables -A FORWARD -i tun+ -j ACCEPT So have you chosen the tool that fits your task? I want a desktop image saved in .icons. What did I NOT do to find out that ^L will let me see hidden dirs? (grin I asked SLUG) This is IMHO a trick rather than things that are different. This will actually be exposed in GTK+ 2.10 - earlier, it was up for debate as to whether or not it should be there at all. So I guess you could call this a GTK+ trick, but it's really a matter of software in flux. (The new GTK+ file chooser should never have gone in so early - it basically went in unfinished because we listened too much to the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the noisy, vocal minority who felt the GNOME file chooser was the only thing stopping Linux from succeeding on the desktop!) An eg of patchy. Specific now: latest dapper 6.06: System - Administration - Services Good example - the GUI tools are pretty lame. When you said server, I was under the impression you meant an actual server, not a desktop that happens to run services. I'm sure that you are correct :-), I'm trying to be objective, so your comments are most usefull. I guess that having spent years using RedHat, the transition to SuSE was quick (1 week to say this is better) and easy. Its clear (and it's been since the release of Dapper) that I'm not finding this transition easy. Specially since I'm jumping in and trying to do fairly complex stuff right off (eg openvpn, with associated firewall setup) Discovering more awesomeness deep in the bowels of Debian/Ubuntu is a never ending pleasure. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ Spam is about consent, not content. - Craig Sanders -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] A comparison for fun ...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've tried a few, settled on guidedog, guarddog. I still see no way of adding these to my firewall rules: iptables -A INPUT -i tun+ -j ACCEPT iptables -A FORWARD -i tun+ -j ACCEPT for shorewall in /etc/shorewall/zones add a vpn zone in /etc/shorewall/interfaces: (associate that zone with tun+) tun+vpn and in /etc/shorewall/policy make policys for your vpn zone: vpn lan ACCEPT lan vpn ACCEPT seriously, use shorewall. anyway - unless you are routing openvpn tunnels to lots of different lans, you only need a tun0 interface (use the server-client mode). if you want to route subnets behind the clients the ccd option is useful for this. dave -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
