RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
I guess it's too late to take the dry off city only, before the pump-- (usually in this set-up, the parking goes down and the high rise goes up)-- If 20 ft/sec was spec'd, city water only might not have been utilized-- I can see 50 pound safety on HUGE dry systems, AND the xtra heavy DP dilemma. -Original Message- From: David de Vries [mailto:ddevr...@firetecheng.net] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Sure, I have seen a fair number of popped circuit breakers, switches shut off, etc. and the air compressor is off, but this is a high rise building with all the bells and whistles. Fire alarm panel will be monitored by the complex and by the municipal remote station. If there is a low air alarm (yes, I have seen those fail also), people will know. That said, I am still not comfortable allowing the 175 sprinklers in a system that will see about 215 when it trips. Considering all options, including running exposed piping with high pressure uprights in the finished ceiling area (architect throws fit here), install a PRV ahead of the DPV (contractor throws fit here), separating and heating the finished ceiling areas and use high pressure pendents on return bends (everyone who has to come up with money throws fit here), etc. Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Chris Cahill fpech...@embarqmail.com wrote: From: Chris Cahill fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:50 AM With your subrogation work do you really believe supervised low air protects against false trips. Sometimes yes sometimes no IMHO. How about the one where the alarm rang for days before the freezer tripped and we got to take the sprinkler system to the parking lot for a couple days. Or sometimes the air compressor runs nearly constantly from a larger leak masking the leak and finally fails only then revealing the leak before anyone has a real chance to react to the low air alarm before it trips. But I think we digressed. I wouldn't allow the head if involved. Just not worth the risk IMHO. I though agree it would probably work. Good news is they only have to last 10 years. Chris -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Chris, we are designing to avoid the false trip from a dead compressor (supervised low air), but maybe a little hammer from the fire pump starting from a dead jockey pump will trip the DPV. Then you are right; we get the full static pressure. Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated 2715 Harrison St. Evanston, IL 60201 Tel: 847-733-0944 Fax: 847-866-6255 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
With your subrogation work do you really believe supervised low air protects against false trips. Sometimes yes sometimes no IMHO. How about the one where the alarm rang for days before the freezer tripped and we got to take the sprinkler system to the parking lot for a couple days. Or sometimes the air compressor runs nearly constantly from a larger leak masking the leak and finally fails only then revealing the leak before anyone has a real chance to react to the low air alarm before it trips. But I think we digressed. I wouldn't allow the head if involved. Just not worth the risk IMHO. I though agree it would probably work. Good news is they only have to last 10 years. Chris -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Chris, we are designing to avoid the false trip from a dead compressor (supervised low air), but maybe a little hammer from the fire pump starting from a dead jockey pump will trip the DPV. Then you are right; we get the full static pressure. Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated 2715 Harrison St. Evanston, IL 60201 Tel: 847-733-0944 Fax: 847-866-6255 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Would it be possible to heat trace the areas where you need pendants and use high pressure standard heads? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Matt, I liked your idea. That is the way I designed the system to begin with. Then the shops came in without the PRV, with a high pressure DPV and high pressure uprights on most of the system. Just a handful of dry pendents, but the cut sheet says 175 max. And I have found none listed for the 215 static wet pressure. So we might end up cutting in a PRV. Yes, George and Thom, I know it will only see about 50 most of the time and may not see the full 215 even when the DPV trips. Although wet sprinklers are tested at 500 psi (for a few seconds) and so says the cut sheet, the dry sprinkler cut sheet does not say that. Are they also tested at 500? The cut sheet says tested pneumatically at 100. Makes me think the procedure is not the same and the dry sprinklers are not quite so robust as the wet ones. Chris, we are designing to avoid the false trip from a dead compressor (supervised low air), but maybe a little hammer from the fire pump starting from a dead jockey pump will trip the DPV. Then you are right; we get the full static pressure. Ron, if the dry pendents could take 225 or 250, why is no mfr listing them for that pressure? Sure, there is a cost, but it seems there would be applications for them and a competitive advantage to the mfr (at least the first one!) who does list them at high pressure. Craig, all the system components are listed for 250 or 300, except the dry sprinklers. Lastly, the mfr's senior tech services mgr says 175 rated sprinklers are not recommended for this application. And, the hydrostatic test pressure should not exceed 225. So, no one knows of a high pressure dry pendent ... even an ugly one?? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated 2715 Harrison St. Evanston, IL 60201 Tel: 847-733-0944 Fax: 847-866-6255 --- On Thu, 11/11/10, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: From: Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 3:57 PM Nobody liked the pressure reducing valve? What if you put it in front of the dry pipe valve? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Is all the piping, fittings, etc., rated for 300 psi? If you're worried about the heads, don't forget the whole system is technically rated for 175. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries [ddevr...@firetecheng.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
If I was going to install std. dry pend I would use ones by a mfg that tests them to 500Psi, like Globe GL series ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents
it is UL that dictates the test pressures as part of their listing. That is a leakage test that is held for one minute. There is also a hydrostatic test at 700 psi for one minute regarding rupture. Although I agree with the stated concerns and likelihood of successful operation with the standard pressure rating, I wouldn't go there since it is an explicit violation of NFPA 13. It's like putting a standard tire with a S speed rating on your Viper (or Ford Cobra if you have real money) instead of a Y rating. It will probably work but if (or when) it blows out, guess who gets to pay for the new car? Roland On Nov 12, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Thom wrote: If I was going to install std. dry pend I would use ones by a mfg that tests them to 500Psi, like Globe GL series __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Sure, I have seen a fair number of popped circuit breakers, switches shut off, etc. and the air compressor is off, but this is a high rise building with all the bells and whistles. Fire alarm panel will be monitored by the complex and by the municipal remote station. If there is a low air alarm (yes, I have seen those fail also), people will know. That said, I am still not comfortable allowing the 175 sprinklers in a system that will see about 215 when it trips. Considering all options, including running exposed piping with high pressure uprights in the finished ceiling area (architect throws fit here), install a PRV ahead of the DPV (contractor throws fit here), separating and heating the finished ceiling areas and use high pressure pendents on return bends (everyone who has to come up with money throws fit here), etc. Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Chris Cahill fpech...@embarqmail.com wrote: From: Chris Cahill fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:50 AM With your subrogation work do you really believe supervised low air protects against false trips. Sometimes yes sometimes no IMHO. How about the one where the alarm rang for days before the freezer tripped and we got to take the sprinkler system to the parking lot for a couple days. Or sometimes the air compressor runs nearly constantly from a larger leak masking the leak and finally fails only then revealing the leak before anyone has a real chance to react to the low air alarm before it trips. But I think we digressed. I wouldn't allow the head if involved. Just not worth the risk IMHO. I though agree it would probably work. Good news is they only have to last 10 years. Chris -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Chris, we are designing to avoid the false trip from a dead compressor (supervised low air), but maybe a little hammer from the fire pump starting from a dead jockey pump will trip the DPV. Then you are right; we get the full static pressure. Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated 2715 Harrison St. Evanston, IL 60201 Tel: 847-733-0944 Fax: 847-866-6255 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Have you looked into pressure reducing valves? I don't know if there are any that are listed for dry system use though... Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Best regards, Charles Thurston Coastal Fire Protection Coastal mailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents
What's the criteria for that 175 psi limit. I don't think it's burst pressure. Is it that haven't been tested for operation any higher than 175? Are 225 heads a special more robust head than 175 heads? Or are they just 175 heads that got tested and listed to 225. I remember PT tests in the Army. The performance criteria was always X number in Y time. You were done when you exhausted either so it was that one could meet X in Y in be done and pass although not out of strength and so still be able to continue and perform X in Y. I this a similar thing? And if so how willing are you to put that PE behind exceeding the listing? On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: Have you looked into pressure reducing valves? I don't know if there are any that are listed for dry system use though... Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Best regards, Charles Thurston Coastal Fire Protection Coastal mailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Considering all sprinklers are tested at 500 PSI, I doubt that they raise that to 700 and market those that stay together as high pressure. Dave, assuming the dry system supply- fire pump?- is 215, you could run a water delivery calc with a head operating and see if the pressure in the system really reaches 215 PSI with the decrease in pressure as water fills the pipe, and then when its full (or its equalized with trapped air) is one head flowing enough to bring the pressure below 175? Or depending on what the value of the contents is, susceptibility to water damage, owner tolerance for risk, it wouldn't be a quantum leap to allow a little over 200 PSI- where we often hydro for min 2 hrs anyway- and ask the AHJ to APPROVE the higher pressure. If I was entitled to an opinion, it would be that this would be fine. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents What's the criteria for that 175 psi limit. I don't think it's burst pressure. Is it that haven't been tested for operation any higher than 175? Are 225 heads a special more robust head than 175 heads? Or are they just 175 heads that got tested and listed to 225. I remember PT tests in the Army. The performance criteria was always X number in Y time. You were done when you exhausted either so it was that one could meet X in Y in be done and pass although not out of strength and so still be able to continue and perform X in Y. I this a similar thing? And if so how willing are you to put that PE behind exceeding the listing? On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: Have you looked into pressure reducing valves? I don't know if there are any that are listed for dry system use though... Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe
Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents
What about a dead air compressor that causes a false trip? More likely than one head flowing. Or a cracked drum drip valve? Will have 215 psi then. Chris -Original Message- From: George Church for...@ptd.net Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:22:24 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Considering all sprinklers are tested at 500 PSI, I doubt that they raise that to 700 and market those that stay together as high pressure. Dave, assuming the dry system supply- fire pump?- is 215, you could run a water delivery calc with a head operating and see if the pressure in the system really reaches 215 PSI with the decrease in pressure as water fills the pipe, and then when its full (or its equalized with trapped air) is one head flowing enough to bring the pressure below 175? Or depending on what the value of the contents is, susceptibility to water damage, owner tolerance for risk, it wouldn't be a quantum leap to allow a little over 200 PSI- where we often hydro for min 2 hrs anyway- and ask the AHJ to APPROVE the higher pressure. If I was entitled to an opinion, it would be that this would be fine. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents What's the criteria for that 175 psi limit. I don't think it's burst pressure. Is it that haven't been tested for operation any higher than 175? Are 225 heads a special more robust head than 175 heads? Or are they just 175 heads that got tested and listed to 225. I remember PT tests in the Army. The performance criteria was always X number in Y time. You were done when you exhausted either so it was that one could meet X in Y in be done and pass although not out of strength and so still be able to continue and perform X in Y. I this a similar thing? And if so how willing are you to put that PE behind exceeding the listing? On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: Have you looked into pressure reducing valves? I don't know if there are any that are listed for dry system use though... Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Is all the piping, fittings, etc., rated for 300 psi? If you're worried about the heads, don't forget the whole system is technically rated for 175. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries [ddevr...@firetecheng.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Best regards, Charles Thurston Coastal Fire Protection Coastalmailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Nobody liked the pressure reducing valve? What if you put it in front of the dry pipe valve? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Is all the piping, fittings, etc., rated for 300 psi? If you're worried about the heads, don't forget the whole system is technically rated for 175. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries [ddevr...@firetecheng.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Best regards, Charles Thurston Coastal Fire Protection Coastalmailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
If the drum drip is cracked water will be flowing. Unliely that you'll overpresurize the system. Even still 215 is not that big of a deal since you'd be testing at 200 psi minimum. The system should be capable of sustaining 215 for the amount of time it would take someone to respond and fix the problem. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill [fpech...@embarqmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 4:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents What about a dead air compressor that causes a false trip? More likely than one head flowing. Or a cracked drum drip valve? Will have 215 psi then. Chris -Original Message- From: George Church for...@ptd.net Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:22:24 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Considering all sprinklers are tested at 500 PSI, I doubt that they raise that to 700 and market those that stay together as high pressure. Dave, assuming the dry system supply- fire pump?- is 215, you could run a water delivery calc with a head operating and see if the pressure in the system really reaches 215 PSI with the decrease in pressure as water fills the pipe, and then when its full (or its equalized with trapped air) is one head flowing enough to bring the pressure below 175? Or depending on what the value of the contents is, susceptibility to water damage, owner tolerance for risk, it wouldn't be a quantum leap to allow a little over 200 PSI- where we often hydro for min 2 hrs anyway- and ask the AHJ to APPROVE the higher pressure. If I was entitled to an opinion, it would be that this would be fine. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents What's the criteria for that 175 psi limit. I don't think it's burst pressure. Is it that haven't been tested for operation any higher than 175? Are 225 heads a special more robust head than 175 heads? Or are they just 175 heads that got tested and listed to 225. I remember PT tests in the Army. The performance criteria was always X number in Y time. You were done when you exhausted either so it was that one could meet X in Y in be done and pass although not out of strength and so still be able to continue and perform X in Y. I this a similar thing? And if so how willing are you to put that PE behind exceeding the listing? On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: Have you looked into pressure reducing valves? I don't know if there are any that are listed for dry system use though... Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
I personally would not worry about the heads, not being rated for the 215# As stated below the 200 Psi is the minimum test pressure or as 13 says or 50# over operating pressure so test it to 265# for 2hours and sleep well. 175# is operating pressure and your operating pressure is 50Psi air most of the time. True if the system trips your operating pressure is then 215#, but it will not be a sustained pressure, as they will drain and reset the system, and no way will it exceed the test pressure of 265. Even still 215 is not that big of a deal since you'd be testing at 200 psi minimumCraig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents
The steel pipe and fittings we use are rated (not listed 'cause they don't need to be) at 150 psi WOG. WOG is water, oil, gas. The 150 is for gas and the fluid rating is twice that (300 psi) which is why we can use the same old pipe in those systems where we need 250 psi listed sprinkler components. On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Thom tmcma...@firetechinc.com wrote: I personally would not worry about the heads, not being rated for the 215# As stated below the 200 Psi is the minimum test pressure or as 13 says or 50# over operating pressure so test it to 265# for 2hours and sleep well. 175# is operating pressure and your operating pressure is 50Psi air most of the time. True if the system trips your operating pressure is then 215#, but it will not be a sustained pressure, as they will drain and reset the system, and no way will it exceed the test pressure of 265. Even still 215 is not that big of a deal since you'd be testing at 200 psi minimumCraig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Matt, I liked your idea. That is the way I designed the system to begin with. Then the shops came in without the PRV, with a high pressure DPV and high pressure uprights on most of the system. Just a handful of dry pendents, but the cut sheet says 175 max. And I have found none listed for the 215 static wet pressure. So we might end up cutting in a PRV. Yes, George and Thom, I know it will only see about 50 most of the time and may not see the full 215 even when the DPV trips. Although wet sprinklers are tested at 500 psi (for a few seconds) and so says the cut sheet, the dry sprinkler cut sheet does not say that. Are they also tested at 500? The cut sheet says tested pneumatically at 100. Makes me think the procedure is not the same and the dry sprinklers are not quite so robust as the wet ones. Chris, we are designing to avoid the false trip from a dead compressor (supervised low air), but maybe a little hammer from the fire pump starting from a dead jockey pump will trip the DPV. Then you are right; we get the full static pressure. Ron, if the dry pendents could take 225 or 250, why is no mfr listing them for that pressure? Sure, there is a cost, but it seems there would be applications for them and a competitive advantage to the mfr (at least the first one!) who does list them at high pressure. Craig, all the system components are listed for 250 or 300, except the dry sprinklers. Lastly, the mfr's senior tech services mgr says 175 rated sprinklers are not recommended for this application. And, the hydrostatic test pressure should not exceed 225. So, no one knows of a high pressure dry pendent ... even an ugly one?? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated 2715 Harrison St. Evanston, IL 60201 Tel: 847-733-0944 Fax: 847-866-6255 --- On Thu, 11/11/10, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: From: Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 3:57 PM Nobody liked the pressure reducing valve? What if you put it in front of the dry pipe valve? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Is all the piping, fittings, etc., rated for 300 psi? If you're worried about the heads, don't forget the whole system is technically rated for 175. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries [ddevr...@firetecheng.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings
Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents
David, The manufacturer's guy will always say not to exceed the listing and if you know one well enough and he trusts your discretion you might even get a yeah it will probably work but we haven't tested it that way so no. As to why no on has spent the dough to list it that way and get that competitive advantage maybe no one sees a market except for a handful of these things on a rare occasion. I dislike the PRV idea since I've tested enough of these things in fire systems and they seem to have a high failure rate from disuse. Two cents talking. On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:21 PM, David de Vries ddevr...@firetecheng.net wrote: Matt, I liked your idea. That is the way I designed the system to begin with. Then the shops came in without the PRV, with a high pressure DPV and high pressure uprights on most of the system. Just a handful of dry pendents, but the cut sheet says 175 max. And I have found none listed for the 215 static wet pressure. So we might end up cutting in a PRV. Yes, George and Thom, I know it will only see about 50 most of the time and may not see the full 215 even when the DPV trips. Although wet sprinklers are tested at 500 psi (for a few seconds) and so says the cut sheet, the dry sprinkler cut sheet does not say that. Are they also tested at 500? The cut sheet says tested pneumatically at 100. Makes me think the procedure is not the same and the dry sprinklers are not quite so robust as the wet ones. Chris, we are designing to avoid the false trip from a dead compressor (supervised low air), but maybe a little hammer from the fire pump starting from a dead jockey pump will trip the DPV. Then you are right; we get the full static pressure. Ron, if the dry pendents could take 225 or 250, why is no mfr listing them for that pressure? Sure, there is a cost, but it seems there would be applications for them and a competitive advantage to the mfr (at least the first one!) who does list them at high pressure. Craig, all the system components are listed for 250 or 300, except the dry sprinklers. Lastly, the mfr's senior tech services mgr says 175 rated sprinklers are not recommended for this application. And, the hydrostatic test pressure should not exceed 225. So, no one knows of a high pressure dry pendent ... even an ugly one?? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated 2715 Harrison St. Evanston, IL 60201 Tel: 847-733-0944 Fax: 847-866-6255 --- On Thu, 11/11/10, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: From: Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 3:57 PM Nobody liked the pressure reducing valve? What if you put it in front of the dry pipe valve? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents Is all the piping, fittings, etc., rated for 300 psi? If you're worried about the heads, don't forget the whole system is technically rated for 175. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries [ddevr...@firetecheng.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message
