Re: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
Don Brown wrote: Rumor has it IDEA is working on a C# version :) They are at least planning one, at least if you believe the IntelliJ CTO: http://www.freeroller.net/page/gstamp/20030427 -T. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
Chris, Thanks for your response, I find many of your arguments and others compelling. Please note that I am working with Struts when I had the opportunity to work with .NET. (Just what does that say about me? :-) )I agree with the majority of what you wrote and probably didn't fully understand the parts I might have issue with. The issue here is the perception by the majority of the business world. I will be using many of the issues raised here to try and to get more acceptance for Struts/JSP If you need any proof of the business acceptance of .NET just look at the job sites for web developers and see how many listings are for .NET and how many are for Struts/JSP etc. I have used the argument that Real productivity lies in the ability to provide rich, complex functionality that supports real people in getting real things done. the .NET heads ( is there a term used to describe them? ) come back and say that it is easier and faster to build in C# then Java. They say that the tools to work with C# are better ( I don't agree ). In fairness, we should not assume that .NET developers are going to skip design or write GUIs with no functionality. We should look at the total cost of development. I must take issue with your point that It's this complexity that goes begging when UI construction is the sole (or even majority) measure of productivity. The fact is that as of right now you can build and maintain a GUI using .NET faster and easier (read productivity). You can build rich and complex functionality using C#. The building the business functionality is basically on par between Java and C#. Is it not fair to say that the productivity gained in the GUI construction is a clear win for .NET? If you take two groups one for Java/Struts/et. al. and one for .NET, where they are equally proficient in their respective technologies, and give them the same application to build, which will be done first? Bottom line who gets the job done first? The business world has decided that the .NET team will be done first. From what I have seen myself I have little reason to doubt this. I have made the argument about how much richer Java is as a language, and what I hear back is that the difference between Java and C# is like the difference between Coke and Pepsi. Again, perception is reality. Good tools do have a direct impact on development schedules. When are we going to have JSF and the tools to support it? Are the anti-Microsquish league (IBM, SUN, Oracle, et. al.) going to come up with tools to match .NET? Lastly, one of our teams here is writing a .NET front-end talking to Web Services supplied by a Java J2EE middle tier. The say they are having their cake and are able to eat it too. The interesting thing is they are succeeding and are getting their applications to the users faster and management has noticed. Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 1:48 PM To: Struts Developers List Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Glenn, I'm continuously unimpressed by the implicit assumption that Developer Productivity == GUI construction. The blind acceptance of this hoary old chestnut has been a huge impediment to real progress in developing better systems. Given that the rapid construction of a UI is a good thing, what's my beef? Simply put, there's a whole world of complexity behind the UI that needs to be conceived of, designed, and implemented before the application is useful. It's this complexity that goes begging when UI construction is the sole (or even majority) measure of productivity. There are levels of productivity. GUI building is on the surface, easy to see. But it's thin, and not nourishing. Real productivity lies in the ability to provide rich, complex functionality that supports real people in getting real things done. GUI tools tend to concentrate on the thin layer on top, providing some hardwired mechanism(s) underneath to support the UI. This is an extreme limitation in real productivity in that it limits the access the developers have to the underlying bits. Struts provides the framework that lets us deal with the UI and get past it into the Java world where we're really limited only by our own skills and knowledge. Like Vic said in his post, I provide training in Struts (and other stuff) to corporate clients. I recently mentored a bunch of mainframe programmers starting up with Java/Struts in order to reimplement their existing FoxPro application. It's a simple customer info collection application - get some info into a form, save it, find it, update it, save the changes. The UI side of things is straightforward with Struts, as it would be with other technologies. BUT, real complexity lies unspoken in the find it functionality. The naive approach is to provide a single-field input form accepting a client ID# which is used to look up the info. Next up is the search form
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
CTGOne last emphasis - Struts is a wonderful piece of work in and of itself. It's as valuable as an example of the type of software that CAN be developed to satisfy a particular set of problems. Completely open. If anyone has a need to build a dynamically configurable application that interacts with external actors via well-defined protocols according to declaratively supplied behaviours they can look to Struts as a mode. Can the same be said for the .NET tools? And I cannot believe that the .NET solution will be as flexible as Java-based solutions. The motivations of the sponsors are different. MS needs to lock everyone into the one way in order to control the environment and maximize revenue; Java's sponsors promote a high level of adherence to standards while adding value through extensions to the standard, customizations, and professional standards. The MS approach will enable cookie-cutter applications to be stamped out by minimally skilled worker bees. The Java approach will encourage and enable a variety of solutions, architectures, application styles and types to emerge, each suited to distinct problem domains. If I were in the business world I wouldn't want to close down my future flexibility and increase my ongoing maintenance costs by choosing a closed fixed-form GUI-building tool solution. I'm really looking forward to Struts' evolution, and comforted in knowing that I'll be able to see it, understand it, and be able to explain it to the business world. /CTG Chris -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 1:48 PM To: Struts Developers List Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Glenn, I'm continuously unimpressed by the implicit assumption that Developer Productivity == GUI construction. The blind acceptance of this hoary old chestnut has been a huge impediment to real progress in developing better systems. Given that the rapid construction of a UI is a good thing, what's my beef? Simply put, there's a whole world of complexity behind the UI that needs to be conceived of, designed, and implemented before the application is useful. It's this complexity that goes begging when UI construction is the sole (or even majority) measure of productivity. There are levels of productivity. GUI building is on the surface, easy to see. But it's thin, and not nourishing. Real productivity lies in the ability to provide rich, complex functionality that supports real people in getting real things done. GUI tools tend to concentrate on the thin layer on top, providing some hardwired mechanism(s) underneath to support the UI. This is an extreme limitation in real productivity in that it limits the access the developers have to the underlying bits. Struts provides the framework that lets us deal with the UI and get past it into the Java world where we're really limited only by our own skills and knowledge. Like Vic said in his post, I provide training in Struts (and other stuff) to corporate clients. I recently mentored a bunch of mainframe programmers starting up with Java/Struts in order to reimplement their existing FoxPro application. It's a simple customer info collection application - get some info into a form, save it, find it, update it, save the changes. The UI side of things is straightforward with Struts, as it would be with other technologies. BUT, real complexity lies unspoken in the find it functionality. The naive approach is to provide a single-field input form accepting a client ID# which is used to look up the info. Next up is the search form approach: Let's give them a form that looks like the input form, let them fill in some value(s) and then search for their info. OK, now we're talking. What fields are on the form? How do the values entered interact with one another - implicit ANDs or ORs, or do we try to give them a real query builder? And so it goes. Even better, as the user population gains experience with the application, having a flexible powerful language and platform underneath employed via strong, supple frameworks and architectures makes it much, much easier to continually improve things than is the case for systems built from GUI-oriented tools lacking Java's access to the machinery. Up until now the Java world has concentrated on core technology, and thereby enabled core productivity. Struts has brought us up to the surface, and things have always improved. I'm really hoping that JavaServer Faces will provide the rapid UI-building experience other tools and technologies enjoy. Once that happens the world will change. It'll be Java all the way down. Chris At 03:14 PM 6/11/2003, you wrote: Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
the .NET heads ( is there a term used to describe them? ) come back and say that it is easier and faster to build in C# then Java. They say that the tools to work with C# are better ( I don't agree ). Having worked with VS.NET and various Java IDEs I can say that .NET developers don't know what they're missing. They might have easy gui construction but VS is woefully lacking in ease of use and features (the most noticeable to me is the lack of automated refactorings). David In fairness, we should not assume that .NET developers are going to skip design or write GUIs with no functionality. We should look at the total cost of development. I must take issue with your point that It's this complexity that goes begging when UI construction is the sole (or even majority) measure of productivity. The fact is that as of right now you can build and maintain a GUI using .NET faster and easier (read productivity). You can build rich and complex functionality using C#. The building the business functionality is basically on par between Java and C#. Is it not fair to say that the productivity gained in the GUI construction is a clear win for .NET? If you take two groups one for Java/Struts/et. al. and one for .NET, where they are equally proficient in their respective technologies, and give them the same application to build, which will be done first? Bottom line who gets the job done first? The business world has decided that the .NET team will be done first. From what I have seen myself I have little reason to doubt this. I have made the argument about how much richer Java is as a language, and what I hear back is that the difference between Java and C# is like the difference between Coke and Pepsi. Again, perception is reality. Good tools do have a direct impact on development schedules. When are we going to have JSF and the tools to support it? Are the anti-Microsquish league (IBM, SUN, Oracle, et. al.) going to come up with tools to match .NET? Lastly, one of our teams here is writing a .NET front-end talking to Web Services supplied by a Java J2EE middle tier. The say they are having their cake and are able to eat it too. The interesting thing is they are succeeding and are getting their applications to the users faster and management has noticed. Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 1:48 PM To: Struts Developers List Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Glenn, I'm continuously unimpressed by the implicit assumption that Developer Productivity == GUI construction. The blind acceptance of this hoary old chestnut has been a huge impediment to real progress in developing better systems. Given that the rapid construction of a UI is a good thing, what's my beef? Simply put, there's a whole world of complexity behind the UI that needs to be conceived of, designed, and implemented before the application is useful. It's this complexity that goes begging when UI construction is the sole (or even majority) measure of productivity. There are levels of productivity. GUI building is on the surface, easy to see. But it's thin, and not nourishing. Real productivity lies in the ability to provide rich, complex functionality that supports real people in getting real things done. GUI tools tend to concentrate on the thin layer on top, providing some hardwired mechanism(s) underneath to support the UI. This is an extreme limitation in real productivity in that it limits the access the developers have to the underlying bits. Struts provides the framework that lets us deal with the UI and get past it into the Java world where we're really limited only by our own skills and knowledge. Like Vic said in his post, I provide training in Struts (and other stuff) to corporate clients. I recently mentored a bunch of mainframe programmers starting up with Java/Struts in order to reimplement their existing FoxPro application. It's a simple customer info collection application - get some info into a form, save it, find it, update it, save the changes. The UI side of things is straightforward with Struts, as it would be with other technologies. BUT, real complexity lies unspoken in the find it functionality. The naive approach is to provide a single-field input form accepting a client ID# which is used to look up the info. Next up is the search form approach: Let's give them a form that looks like the input form, let them fill in some value(s) and then search for their info. OK, now we're talking. What fields are on the form? How do the values entered interact with one another - implicit ANDs or ORs, or do we try to give them a real query builder? And so it goes. Even better, as the user population gains experience with the application, having a flexible powerful language and platform underneath employed via strong, supple frameworks and architectures makes it much, much easier to continually improve things than is the case for systems built
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
Rumor has it IDEA is working on a C# version :) Don On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, David Graham wrote: the .NET heads ( is there a term used to describe them? ) come back and say that it is easier and faster to build in C# then Java. They say that the tools to work with C# are better ( I don't agree ). Having worked with VS.NET and various Java IDEs I can say that .NET developers don't know what they're missing. They might have easy gui construction but VS is woefully lacking in ease of use and features (the most noticeable to me is the lack of automated refactorings). David In fairness, we should not assume that .NET developers are going to skip design or write GUIs with no functionality. We should look at the total cost of development. I must take issue with your point that It's this complexity that goes begging when UI construction is the sole (or even majority) measure of productivity. The fact is that as of right now you can build and maintain a GUI using .NET faster and easier (read productivity). You can build rich and complex functionality using C#. The building the business functionality is basically on par between Java and C#. Is it not fair to say that the productivity gained in the GUI construction is a clear win for .NET? If you take two groups one for Java/Struts/et. al. and one for .NET, where they are equally proficient in their respective technologies, and give them the same application to build, which will be done first? Bottom line who gets the job done first? The business world has decided that the .NET team will be done first. From what I have seen myself I have little reason to doubt this. I have made the argument about how much richer Java is as a language, and what I hear back is that the difference between Java and C# is like the difference between Coke and Pepsi. Again, perception is reality. Good tools do have a direct impact on development schedules. When are we going to have JSF and the tools to support it? Are the anti-Microsquish league (IBM, SUN, Oracle, et. al.) going to come up with tools to match .NET? Lastly, one of our teams here is writing a .NET front-end talking to Web Services supplied by a Java J2EE middle tier. The say they are having their cake and are able to eat it too. The interesting thing is they are succeeding and are getting their applications to the users faster and management has noticed. Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 1:48 PM To: Struts Developers List Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Glenn, I'm continuously unimpressed by the implicit assumption that Developer Productivity == GUI construction. The blind acceptance of this hoary old chestnut has been a huge impediment to real progress in developing better systems. Given that the rapid construction of a UI is a good thing, what's my beef? Simply put, there's a whole world of complexity behind the UI that needs to be conceived of, designed, and implemented before the application is useful. It's this complexity that goes begging when UI construction is the sole (or even majority) measure of productivity. There are levels of productivity. GUI building is on the surface, easy to see. But it's thin, and not nourishing. Real productivity lies in the ability to provide rich, complex functionality that supports real people in getting real things done. GUI tools tend to concentrate on the thin layer on top, providing some hardwired mechanism(s) underneath to support the UI. This is an extreme limitation in real productivity in that it limits the access the developers have to the underlying bits. Struts provides the framework that lets us deal with the UI and get past it into the Java world where we're really limited only by our own skills and knowledge. Like Vic said in his post, I provide training in Struts (and other stuff) to corporate clients. I recently mentored a bunch of mainframe programmers starting up with Java/Struts in order to reimplement their existing FoxPro application. It's a simple customer info collection application - get some info into a form, save it, find it, update it, save the changes. The UI side of things is straightforward with Struts, as it would be with other technologies. BUT, real complexity lies unspoken in the find it functionality. The naive approach is to provide a single-field input form accepting a client ID# which is used to look up the info. Next up is the search form approach: Let's give them a form that looks like the input form, let them fill in some value(s) and then search for their info. OK, now we're talking. What fields are on the form? How do the values entered interact with one another - implicit ANDs or ORs, or do we try to give them a real query builder? And so it goes. Even better, as the user population gains experience with the application
Re: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
I have 2 words to say about the .NET stuff Springfield monorail On Wednesday, Jun 11, 2003, at 20:14 Europe/London, Davidson, Glenn wrote: Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/ defaul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
Do anybody have a bit more information about Project Rave? On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:51:40 -0400, James Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Glenn, There's actually been some really exciting JavaServer Faces tools news at JavaOne. First, there's Project Rave from Sun which looks really close to the Visual Studio stuff from Microsoft. This looks very promising. Basically drag and drop type stuff. I also had the fortune of getting to see some upcoming Oracle JDeveloper builds which also incorporate very nice functionality for JavaServer Faces. The Oracle stuff looks very promising and I'm quite excited about it. I just added a link to my Java Server Faces page for Project Rave: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:34 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro James, Your site is most helpful, thanks. I was wondering if you had any additional details on potential JSF developer products and/or any idea when we might be able to start using JSF? Are there any tools planned for migrating Struts applications to JSF? JSF is clearly something we want to know more about. Glenn -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:19 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro I'd recommend you have a look at JavaServer Faces (JSF). I'm at JavaOne right now and Sun -- along with other vendors -- is putting some serious resources into developer productivity by way of JSF. I have put together a page on my website with more info on Java Server Faces: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:15 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/de faul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com
Re: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
It's due sometime in 2004. Its based on Netbeans. Lets you drag and drop ... from RowSet. (similar to ScioWorks for Struts). Hyped at JavaOne. Includes JSF. Later (2005?) it would allow drag and drop from EJB and Soap. It's unclear if there will be licensing cost to vendors. (but I am like a 3rd party so ... ) .V Igor Shabalov wrote: Do anybody have a bit more information about Project Rave? On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:51:40 -0400, James Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Glenn, There's actually been some really exciting JavaServer Faces tools news at JavaOne. First, there's Project Rave from Sun which looks really close to the Visual Studio stuff from Microsoft. This looks very promising. Basically drag and drop type stuff. I also had the fortune of getting to see some upcoming Oracle JDeveloper builds which also incorporate very nice functionality for JavaServer Faces. The Oracle stuff looks very promising and I'm quite excited about it. I just added a link to my Java Server Faces page for Project Rave: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:34 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro James, Your site is most helpful, thanks. I was wondering if you had any additional details on potential JSF developer products and/or any idea when we might be able to start using JSF? Are there any tools planned for migrating Struts applications to JSF? JSF is clearly something we want to know more about. Glenn -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:19 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro I'd recommend you have a look at JavaServer Faces (JSF). I'm at JavaOne right now and Sun -- along with other vendors -- is putting some serious resources into developer productivity by way of JSF. I have put together a page on my website with more info on Java Server Faces: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:15 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/de faul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
There's a link to Sun's Rave page on my website: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ It's similar to Visual Studio type functionality. I saw it working and was pretty impressed considering I don't use that type of tool currently. It's definitely a step in the right direction for Java tools. -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Igor Shabalov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 6:15 PM To: Struts Developers List Subject: Re: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Do anybody have a bit more information about Project Rave? On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:51:40 -0400, James Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Glenn, There's actually been some really exciting JavaServer Faces tools news at JavaOne. First, there's Project Rave from Sun which looks really close to the Visual Studio stuff from Microsoft. This looks very promising. Basically drag and drop type stuff. I also had the fortune of getting to see some upcoming Oracle JDeveloper builds which also incorporate very nice functionality for JavaServer Faces. The Oracle stuff looks very promising and I'm quite excited about it. I just added a link to my Java Server Faces page for Project Rave: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:34 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro James, Your site is most helpful, thanks. I was wondering if you had any additional details on potential JSF developer products and/or any idea when we might be able to start using JSF? Are there any tools planned for migrating Struts applications to JSF? JSF is clearly something we want to know more about. Glenn -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:19 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro I'd recommend you have a look at JavaServer Faces (JSF). I'm at JavaOne right now and Sun -- along with other vendors -- is putting some serious resources into developer productivity by way of JSF. I have put together a page on my website with more info on Java Server Faces: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:15 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/de faul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/defaul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further.
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
I'd recommend you have a look at JavaServer Faces (JSF). I'm at JavaOne right now and Sun -- along with other vendors -- is putting some serious resources into developer productivity by way of JSF. I have put together a page on my website with more info on Java Server Faces: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:15 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/de faul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
James, Your site is most helpful, thanks. I was wondering if you had any additional details on potential JSF developer products and/or any idea when we might be able to start using JSF? Are there any tools planned for migrating Struts applications to JSF? JSF is clearly something we want to know more about. Glenn -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:19 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro I'd recommend you have a look at JavaServer Faces (JSF). I'm at JavaOne right now and Sun -- along with other vendors -- is putting some serious resources into developer productivity by way of JSF. I have put together a page on my website with more info on Java Server Faces: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:15 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/de faul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
Struts is MUCH more productive, and I would be glad to show you, how using Struts with OO, you can code circles around. (I also offer the training w/ money back- excuse the sales talk) I just want to show you that most of my clients choose J2EE over .NET because it is more productive and more scalable. .V Davidson, Glenn wrote: Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: ..NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/defaul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro
Hi Glenn, There's actually been some really exciting JavaServer Faces tools news at JavaOne. First, there's Project Rave from Sun which looks really close to the Visual Studio stuff from Microsoft. This looks very promising. Basically drag and drop type stuff. I also had the fortune of getting to see some upcoming Oracle JDeveloper builds which also incorporate very nice functionality for JavaServer Faces. The Oracle stuff looks very promising and I'm quite excited about it. I just added a link to my Java Server Faces page for Project Rave: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:34 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro James, Your site is most helpful, thanks. I was wondering if you had any additional details on potential JSF developer products and/or any idea when we might be able to start using JSF? Are there any tools planned for migrating Struts applications to JSF? JSF is clearly something we want to know more about. Glenn -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:19 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro I'd recommend you have a look at JavaServer Faces (JSF). I'm at JavaOne right now and Sun -- along with other vendors -- is putting some serious resources into developer productivity by way of JSF. I have put together a page on my website with more info on Java Server Faces: http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -James Struts Console http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Davidson, Glenn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:15 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: Struts can't get its act together - JavaPro Chris, I tend to agree with your assessment of JavaPro but I'd like to open this up a little. Right now we are faced with two choices for web development .Net or not .Net. I can over-simplify the arguments for and against .Net as the following: .NET Pluses Developer Productivity Negatives Vendor lock in. Others (including Struts) Pluses No vendor lock in Negatives Less developer Productivity It seems like many if not most companies are more interested in developer productivity. Does anyone know of, or foresee any means by which we (developers) will be able to be as productive using Struts/JSP/DHTML/JavaScript etc. as people are using .Net? I'd love to be able to make a case against .Net . Thanks Glenn -Original Message- From: Chris Gerrard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Stuts can't get its act together - JavaPro I found this announcement today on JavaPro's August Issue online In Brief site: http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2003_08/magazine/departments/inbrief/de faul t.asp The blurb: Developer Tools TurboM2 Tired of waiting for The Apache Group to get its act together with the Struts initiative, Virtuas has launched a framework of its own. Virtuas released TurboM2 previously under the name Web Application Model (WAM). Since then, the company decided to alter the product to perform many of the features Struts offers, and like Struts will be released under the open source model. There's more, but on casual inspection it appears that JavaPro has simply regurgitated some marketing poo from Virtuas intended to convey the impression that Struts is in a funk and not moving forward. (so one should naturally move to Virtuas' TurboM2 product) Upon casual inspection it appears that TurboM2 is a fairly direct clone of Struts. On of Virtuas' value-added claims is that TurboM2 has available support and training that Struts does not. Links: Virtuas TurboM2: http://www.turbom2.org/index.html Struts/TurboM2 comparison: http://www.turbom2.org/docs/Comparison.pdf The part that disturbs me is JavaPro's presenting this whole pile as if it were truth. Someone reading this article could well be persuaded that yes, indeed, Struts is in trouble and they should look elsewhere. I've been less than impressed with JavaPro's content for some time, and this erodes my confidence in their editorial control and knowledge of the Java world even further. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
