Re: sundials in schools
Rod, That app is already available, it's Sol Et Umbra. Starting from the GPS and clock information it computes all sun parameters including EoT and it also gives you the local true time. Moreover it draws a dial computed for the actual declination and inclination of your device. It could easily provide a pdf file to be printed to build a dial on whichever surface you want but I preferred not to include that capability. The reason is that smartphone sensors are not good enough to provide orientation values with the required accuracy. Greetings. Gian Sent from Libero Mobile Il 05/07/2014, Rod Wall ha scritto: Hi Donald, And why not also include extra code to design and generate a pdf file for a sundial. Save the pdf file in cloud memory or Drop Box, then print it onto a A4 sheet of paper. Roderick Wall. On Jul 5, 2014 12:01 PM, Rod Wall rodwall1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Donald, A lot of Smart Android mobile phones have GPS (to know what the Longitude is). They also know what the time zone, local standard time and date is. Wouldn't take much for someone to write a Android application (program) to tell what the solar time is for a sundial to face north. We would just need to find someone who is able to do this. Roderick Wall. On Jul 5, 2014 10:23 AM, Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com wrote: I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: sundials in schools
Greetings Donald, One of the ways I like to find north is to determine the latitude and longitude of a location with Goggle Earth (to Goggle Map). Then I enter that information in the NOAA Sunrise/Sunset Calculator at http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/sunrise.html which will tell me the time of Solar Noon on any particular date. Armed with this information I can use a plumb-bob over a point and mark a second point on the shadow of the plumb-bob string at solar noon the moment the sun is southing. A line drawn between these two points is a north-south line.A long way around the barn, but rather fun. Sunny hours, Gino Schiavone Gino SchiavoneThe Schiavone Studio1337 Gusdorf Road, Ste JTaos, NM 87571 575-758-7797575-613-0943 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 10:23:29 +1000 Subject: sundials in schools From: dchristensen...@gmail.com To: sundial@uni-koeln.de I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Gino I do it the same way. However, as you can tell by my website, I'm trying to make sundials so simple that young school children can understand them. I've tried to simplify things as much as I could. A 3rd grade class installed one of my sundials. I'm trying to think up an easy way for a class as young as first grade could make a sundial. Such as a very simplified website that says 1. Find your longitude and latitude by placing the point on this world map 2. Print out the PDF of the sundial that has been generated from the coordinates that you entered 3. Assemble the sundial 4. rotate it until it shows the correct solar time 5. Solar time can be found by setting your watch to the time on this website. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 5:32 AM, GINO SCHIAVONE schiavon...@msn.com wrote: Greetings Donald, One of the ways I like to find north is to determine the latitude and longitude of a location with Goggle Earth (to Goggle Map). Then I enter that information in the NOAA Sunrise/Sunset Calculator at http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/sunrise.html which will tell me the time of Solar Noon on any particular date. Armed with this information I can use a plumb-bob over a point and mark a second point on the shadow of the plumb-bob string at solar noon the moment the sun is southing. A line drawn between these two points is a north-south line. A long way around the barn, but rather fun. Sunny hours, Gino Schiavone Gino Schiavone The Schiavone Studio 1337 Gusdorf Road, Ste J Taos, NM 87571 575-758-7797 575-613-0943 -- Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2014 10:23:29 +1000 Subject: sundials in schools From: dchristensen...@gmail.com To: sundial@uni-koeln.de I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Greetings to you both, Another way I prefer to use, during spring and summer when the sun is north of the equator, is to find the east-west line from the prime vertical (the great circle passing through those points on the horizon and the zenith). If you know the time of noon, then the sun will be on the prime vertical when Z = 90 or 270 degrees. Its hour angle T is easily calculated, cos T = tan d / tan L, (d declination of sun, L latitude). (The very slight error from interval change in declination can be reduced by a second approximation using the found time. In practice, this is usually negligible.) The method is better because the sun is lower in the sky, lengthening its shadow conveniently, and because the change in azimuth with time is less near the horizon. The disadvantage is that the rest of the year the sun crosses the PV below the horizon. Ah, well! It's often raining here in those months. You might choose to try it, however. Gino, it was very pleasant to have you both here in Portland for the conference in '09. I hope to see you and Donald in Indianapolis. Best wishes, John John F. Schilke, MD N 45º 24' W 122º 39' - Original Message - From: GINO SCHIAVONE Subject: RE: sundials in schools One of the ways I like to find north is to determine the latitude and longitude of a location with Goggle Earth (to Goggle Map). Then I enter that information in the NOAA Sunrise/Sunset Calculator at http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/sunrise.html which will tell me the time of Solar Noon on any particular date. Armed with this information I can use a plumb-bob over a point and mark a second point on the shadow of the plumb-bob string at solar noon the moment the sun is southing. A line drawn between these two points is a north-south line. A long way around the barn, but rather fun.--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
sundials in schools
I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
There are astronomy programs like Stellarium and smartphone apps that give the azimuth of the sun at a given time. That and a protractor will give you true north. I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
In message 6fdf1b3f189fbd5c34dc9ac34702c0da.squir...@webmail.dickkoolish.com kool...@dickkoolish.com wrote: There are astronomy programs like Stellarium and smartphone apps that give the azimuth of the sun at a given time. That and a protractor will give you true north. An EASY way, will be to use a 'combined' Horizontal AND Analemmatic dial. You just rotate this, until it shows the SAME time on BOTH dials - which then means that it is AUTOMATICALLY aligned in the North/South direction. No need for any computer 'Apps' - although you would need some sunshine! Hope this is of some help - Linda Reid. I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Hi Donald, A lot of Smart Android mobile phones have GPS (to know what the Longitude is). They also know what the time zone, local standard time and date is. Wouldn't take much for someone to write a Android application (program) to tell what the solar time is for a sundial to face north. We would just need to find someone who is able to do this. Roderick Wall. On Jul 5, 2014 10:23 AM, Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com wrote: I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Hi Donald, And why not also include extra code to design and generate a pdf file for a sundial. Save the pdf file in cloud memory or Drop Box, then print it onto a A4 sheet of paper. Roderick Wall. On Jul 5, 2014 12:01 PM, Rod Wall rodwall1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Donald, A lot of Smart Android mobile phones have GPS (to know what the Longitude is). They also know what the time zone, local standard time and date is. Wouldn't take much for someone to write a Android application (program) to tell what the solar time is for a sundial to face north. We would just need to find someone who is able to do this. Roderick Wall. On Jul 5, 2014 10:23 AM, Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com wrote: I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Hello Linda and all, Yes, this is all it takes, the combination of an analemmatic dial and a horizontal dial provide a quick determination of true north and true (solar) time. Many old pocket dials, the size of today's smart phones, provided this information. What goes around comes around. People still need to no the time and direction, so easily provided by the analemmatic horizontal dial combination in a simple flip dial. Regards, Roger Bailey -- From: Linda Reid linda.r...@fastmessage.co.uk Sent: Friday, July 04, 2014 6:06 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: sundials in schools In message 6fdf1b3f189fbd5c34dc9ac34702c0da.squir...@webmail.dickkoolish.com kool...@dickkoolish.com wrote: There are astronomy programs like Stellarium and smartphone apps that give the azimuth of the sun at a given time. That and a protractor will give you true north. An EASY way, will be to use a 'combined' Horizontal AND Analemmatic dial. You just rotate this, until it shows the SAME time on BOTH dials - which then means that it is AUTOMATICALLY aligned in the North/South direction. No need for any computer 'Apps' - although you would need some sunshine! Hope this is of some help - Linda Reid. I would also love to see sundials in schools. Not just an analemmatic dials but the multi dial as well. This is why I am trying to find an easy way to find north. I would like to be able to use a horizontal dial and rotate it until it reads the true time. Obviously this won't work with a standard horizontal dial because we are not all on the same longitude. The other reason is the equation of time. However, I believe it would work if there was a website that calculate setting your watch to LAT instead of LMT. This website would have to take in account the longitude as well as the day of the year it is. You then rotate the sundial until it is the correct time on your watch. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7800 - Release Date: 07/04/14 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7800 - Release Date: 07/04/14 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Sundials in schools
In message CAC+yKPtUogU41edQk2CFWZMf5a23Dz6Kr0fFef=hxgsukdk...@mail.gmail.com
Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com wrote:
About year ago, (shortly after I had the w3c errors fixed) I started
running into financial hardship and stopped spending on things like SEO. I
have a better google ranking now that I made my website mobile phone
friendly but I haven't spent anything on SEO. I would welcome any help on
SEO. My website still sometimes has a problem when viewed from Internet
Explorer
My apologies for coming 'late', to this thread - but I have been on
summer vacation, and so am just catching-up on these recent postings.
You asked about SEO help - but the latest Panda and Penguin up-
dates by Google have rather made 'Search Engine Optimisation' a bit of
a minefield, when compared with methods which were used previously.
You said that your W3C errors were fixed, and (after checking your
website) it is certainly a lot better than most I have seen - but there
are still a couple of design 'mistakes', (see the attached W3C report).
Unless you comply FULLY with those W3C standards, then it is likely that
some visitors to your website will have problems - because you have no
control over what computer system or 'Browsing' software, they are using.
You had also asked for help with 'marketing companies', and it looks as
though Bill Irvine has already given you the same answer which I would
recommend myself - subscribe to the Education Marketing Mailing List,
where you could post requests for help and receive lots of advice.
Wishing you success, with selling Analemmatic sundials to schools - but
as another person had previously said, Don't give up your day job!
David Andersson.
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Re: Sundials in schools
Thank you all for your wonderful feedback. I'm slow to reply because I only recently figured out how to get the sundial mailing list off the spam list. Gmail mad 'improvements' to their spam filter and they believed the SML to be spam. However it did not visually put it on the spam list so it would not give me an option to remove them from the spam list. I got them off by adding them to 'my contacts' As far as the testimonies, Only half of them are genuine. To be honest I forgot about them and regret not taking the false ones down. I put them up as I was laying out my webpage. I have taken off the false ones. Most all teachers that see my sundial like it. However they don't have control over what the school sets aside for their curriculum or what they have time for. I try to explain that It does not need to be constructed by the children. However, I sound like a telemarketer. I'm a draftsman. I feel like a fish out of water when it comes to selling. I'm looking for educational marketing companies that will sell on commission. If anybody knows of any please contact me. My efforts so far have been to approach schools directly in an attempt to give away my sundials. I knew my website needs photos of children. I'm a terrible salesman and the results discouraging. About year ago, (shortly after I had the w3c errors fixed) I started running into financial hardship and stopped spending on things like SEO. I have a better google ranking now that I made my website mobile phone friendly but I haven't spent anything on SEO. I would welcome any help on SEO. My website still sometimes has a problem when viewed from Internet Explorer I have build a small scale sloping sundial. After a few preliminary test trials, I'm about 80% certain that my sloping sundial will work. I need to talk to a surveyor to work out how to communicate/describe the slope and how to tell people how they can construct it off my dimensions. I will design a sloping sundial at no cost Donald Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 12:27 AM, John Carmichael jlcarmich...@comcast.netwrote: A simple method of laying out a human analemmatic has just occurred to me. 1. Make a true to scale design drawing of the sundial with the Time Marks and the Solar Noon Mark on the ellipse. 2. Measure the distance along the ellipse from the Solar Noon Mark to an adjacent Time Mark. Then measure the distances between each Time Mark along the ellipse. 3. Find True North at the construction site. 4. At the construction site, mark the East/West and North/South cross lines that pass through the center of the date line (the center of the ellipse) 5. draw the ellipse on the ground using the simple line and pin method. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UD8hOs-vaI 6. Using your drawing, simply measure and mark the distances between the Time Marks on the ellipse. Hint: If you use a flexible ruler or measuring tape, you can accurately measure the distances between the Time marks on the curve of the ellipse. This lay out method avoids the use of x/y coordinates or angle measurements. Simple! -Original Message- From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Roger Bailey Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:48 PM To: Robert Kellogg; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Sundials in schools Hi Bob and Donald, I have done the same when an interest is expressed to NASS or to the SML. I routinely send people the basic design information, generally as a spreadsheet with x y data and charts. These requests are from individuals, schools and Eagle Scouts. A minority result in the construction of a dial. This information is offered to encourage people to construct a dial. These offers of information are not in competition with commercial products like Sunclocks but are encouragement to people to explore the possibilities for their specific location. The technology exists to define a dial. The challenge remains the artistic expression. How can the designer bring to life this known 2 dimensional definition of lines on a surface? There is the challenge and the opportunity. My own examples are dials 666 and 668 in the NASS sundial registry. http://www.sundials.org/index.php/dial-registry. The former, 666, Elliston Park Calgary, may be a beast but it is one of the first analemmatic sundials with seasonal markers showing where and when the sun rises and sets. For me the numbers are easy, the creative design is more challenging. Regards, Roger Bailey -- From: Robert Kellogg rkell...@comcast.net Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 2:23 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Sundials in schools Take Linda Reid's comments to heart. Over the last 4 months I've helped two schools make analemmatic sundials. One was an Eagle Scout project, the other was a team of parents. So neither
RE: Sundials in schools
Please try the make a hole in the wall method, it works on some Italian Cathedrals, including the Milano Duomo, but, instead of make the mark over the meridian line, make the mark at an specific hour, all the marks at same hour. I recommend the midday hour at the spring equinox, maybe, as the Milano Duomo, because the latitud, will be better to make the hole in the wall (south wall, of course) instead of the ceiling.It will be very didactic for your students, because you can make the marks with them, along the year. Please see mi link about the projective analemma http://makeaholeinthewall.com/index.php/analemma Ruben Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 10:36:19 +1000 Subject: Re: Sundials in schools From: dchristensen...@gmail.com To: jlcarmich...@comcast.net CC: rkell...@comcast.net; sundial@uni-koeln.de Thank you all for your wonderful feedback. I'm slow to reply because I only recently figured out how to get the sundial mailing list off the spam list. Gmail mad 'improvements' to their spam filter and they believed the SML to be spam. However it did not visually put it on the spam list so it would not give me an option to remove them from the spam list. I got them off by adding them to 'my contacts' As far as the testimonies, Only half of them are genuine. To be honest I forgot about them and regret not taking the false ones down. I put them up as I was laying out my webpage. I have taken off the false ones. Most all teachers that see my sundial like it. However they don't have control over what the school sets aside for their curriculum or what they have time for. I try to explain that It does not need to be constructed by the children. However, I sound like a telemarketer. I'm a draftsman. I feel like a fish out of water when it comes to selling. I'm looking for educational marketing companies that will sell on commission. If anybody knows of any please contact me. My efforts so far have been to approach schools directly in an attempt to give away my sundials. I knew my website needs photos of children. I'm a terrible salesman and the results discouraging.About year ago, (shortly after I had the w3c errors fixed) I started running into financial hardship and stopped spending on things like SEO. I have a better google ranking now that I made my website mobile phone friendly but I haven't spent anything on SEO. I would welcome any help on SEO. My website still sometimes has a problem when viewed from Internet Explorer I have build a small scale sloping sundial. After a few preliminary test trials, I'm about 80% certain that my sloping sundial will work.I need to talk to a surveyor to work out how to communicate/describe the slope and how to tell people how they can construct it off my dimensions.I will design a sloping sundial at no cost Donald Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 12:27 AM, John Carmichael jlcarmich...@comcast.net wrote: A simple method of laying out a human analemmatic has just occurred to me. 1. Make a true to scale design drawing of the sundial with the Time Marks and the Solar Noon Mark on the ellipse. 2. Measure the distance along the ellipse from the Solar Noon Mark to an adjacent Time Mark. Then measure the distances between each Time Mark along the ellipse. 3. Find True North at the construction site. 4. At the construction site, mark the East/West and North/South cross lines that pass through the center of the date line (the center of the ellipse) 5. draw the ellipse on the ground using the simple line and pin method. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UD8hOs-vaI 6. Using your drawing, simply measure and mark the distances between the Time Marks on the ellipse. Hint: If you use a flexible ruler or measuring tape, you can accurately measure the distances between the Time marks on the curve of the ellipse. This lay out method avoids the use of x/y coordinates or angle measurements. Simple! -Original Message- From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Roger Bailey Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:48 PM To: Robert Kellogg; sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Sundials in schools Hi Bob and Donald, I have done the same when an interest is expressed to NASS or to the SML. I routinely send people the basic design information, generally as a spreadsheet with x y data and charts. These requests are from individuals, schools and Eagle Scouts. A minority result in the construction of a dial. This information is offered to encourage people to construct a dial. These offers of information are not in competition with commercial products like Sunclocks but are encouragement to people to explore the possibilities for their specific location. The technology exists to define a dial. The challenge remains the artistic expression. How can
RE: Sundials in schools
Just don't quit your day job quite yet. Jack Aubert From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Donald Christensen Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:08 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Sundials in schools My sundials haven't sold as well as I hoped. In fact they haven't sold at all. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Some of the things I know X and Y coordinates are also given with my sundial. However, I promoted triangulation too much and people are unaware that I give measurements in the Cartesian coordinate system as well. This is confusing. I may drop triangulation all together. I'm slow to take this out because I cannot edit my movie. My movie software no longer works. Perhaps I will drop the movie altogether. I promoted the learning outcomes aspect of my sundial. Perhaps I shouldn't. Schools can quickly say, We don't have time for any other activities and therefore they look no further. It doesn't even occur to them that the sundial enhances any playground. It does not have to become a learning activity or be constructed by the children. What is your opinion? I don't have photos of children on my website. I don't have any because I haven't sold any. I tried to give some sundials away but can't. I'm a terrible salesman and sound more like a telemarketer. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com http://www.sundialsforlearning.com/ http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/d 641cee8-137c-456d-afc1-334e75526254/logo%20GIRL_SHADOW.gif -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by http://www.mailscanner.info/ MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Sundials in schools
An observation about selling. Successful sales happen when people BUY as opposed to when someone SELLS. A good salesperson creates in the buyer a desire to buy, that is the motive force. You have had some good ideas from others on this group. Takes the best of each suggestion, and blend it into your next steps. Simon Simon Wheaton-Smith www.illustratingshadows.com Phoenix, Arizona, W112.1 N33.5 From: Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com To: sundial@uni-koeln.de sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 4:08 PM Subject: Sundials in schools My sundials haven't sold as well as I hoped. In fact they haven't sold at all. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Some of the things I know X and Y coordinates are also given with my sundial. However, I promoted triangulation too much and people are unaware that I give measurements in the Cartesian coordinate system as well. This is confusing. I may drop triangulation all together. I'm slow to take this out because I cannot edit my movie. My movie software no longer works. Perhaps I will drop the movie altogether. I promoted the learning outcomes aspect of my sundial. Perhaps I shouldn't. Schools can quickly say, “We don't have time for any other activities” and therefore they look no further. It doesn't even occur to them that the sundial enhances any playground. It does not have to become a learning activity or be constructed by the children. What is your opinion? I don't have photos of children on my website. I don't have any because I haven't sold any. I tried to give some sundials away but can't. I'm a terrible salesman and sound more like a telemarketer. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
sundials in schools
My sundials haven't sold as well as I hoped. In fact they haven't sold at all. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Some of the things I know X and Y coordinates are also given with my sundial. However, I promoted triangulation too much and people are unaware that I give measurements in the Cartesian coordinate system as well. This is confusing. I may drop triangulation all together. I'm slow to take this out because I cannot edit my movie. My movie software no longer works. Perhaps I will drop the movie altogether. I promoted the learning outcomes aspect of my sundial. Perhaps I shouldn't. Schools can quickly say, “We don't have time for any other activities” and therefore they look no further. It doesn't even occur to them that the sundial enhances any playground. It does not have to become a learning activity or be constructed by the children. What is your opinion? I don't have photos of children on my website. I don't have any because I haven't sold any. I tried to give some sundials away but can't. I'm a terrible salesman and sound more like a telemarketer. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Sundials in schools
My sundials haven't sold as well as I hoped. In fact they haven't sold at all. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Some of the things I know X and Y coordinates are also given with my sundial. However, I promoted triangulation too much and people are unaware that I give measurements in the Cartesian coordinate system as well. This is confusing. I may drop triangulation all together. I'm slow to take this out because I cannot edit my movie. My movie software no longer works. Perhaps I will drop the movie altogether. I promoted the learning outcomes aspect of my sundial. Perhaps I shouldn't. Schools can quickly say, “We don't have time for any other activities” and therefore they look no further. It doesn't even occur to them that the sundial enhances any playground. It does not have to become a learning activity or be constructed by the children. What is your opinion? I don't have photos of children on my website. I don't have any because I haven't sold any. I tried to give some sundials away but can't. I'm a terrible salesman and sound more like a telemarketer. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
sundials in schools
My sundials haven't sold as well as I hoped. In fact they haven't sold at all. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Some of the things I know X and Y coordinates are also given with my sundial. However, I promoted triangulation too much and people are unaware that I give measurements in the Cartesian coordinate system as well. This is confusing. I may drop triangulation all together. I'm slow to take this out because I cannot edit my movie. My movie software no longer works. Perhaps I will drop the movie altogether. I promoted the learning outcomes aspect of my sundial. Perhaps I shouldn't. Schools can quickly say, “We don't have time for any other activities” and therefore they look no further. It doesn't even occur to them that the sundial enhances any playground. It does not have to become a learning activity or be constructed by the children. What is your opinion? I don't have photos of children on my website. I don't have any because I haven't sold any. I tried to give some sundials away but can't. I'm a terrible salesman and sound more like a telemarketer. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Sundials in schools
My sundials haven't sold as well as I hoped. In fact they haven't sold at all. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. Some of the things I know X and Y coordinates are also given with my sundial. However, I promoted triangulation too much and people are unaware that I give measurements in the Cartesian coordinate system as well. This is confusing. I may drop triangulation all together. I'm slow to take this out because I cannot edit my movie. My movie software no longer works. Perhaps I will drop the movie altogether. I promoted the learning outcomes aspect of my sundial. Perhaps I shouldn't. Schools can quickly say, “We don't have time for any other activities” and therefore they look no further. It doesn't even occur to them that the sundial enhances any playground. It does not have to become a learning activity or be constructed by the children. What is your opinion? I don't have photos of children on my website. I don't have any because I haven't sold any. I tried to give some sundials away but can't. I'm a terrible salesman and sound more like a telemarketer. Cheers Donald Christensen 0423 102 090 www.sundialsforlearning.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Hi Donald, Your website doesn't indicate the location of your business and if the $275.00 kit price is in US dollars? Roderick. From: Donald Christensen Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 3:14 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: sundials in schools My website is finally done It's about putting in analemmatic sundials in schools. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoW-Kl_kaxw http://www.sundialsforlearning.com/ Cheers Donald 0423 102 090 This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5196 - Release Date: 08/12/12 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5196 - Release Date: 08/12/12 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Roderick Thank you for pointing out my slip up. I'll sort out my paypal account jmikeshaw I don't understand. Did you find a mistake or is the problem that I don't spell out that I design for northern and southern dials Cheers Donald 0423 102 090 This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorizeduse of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 5:46 PM, RW Mail List maillis...@optusnet.com.auwrote: Hi Donald, Your website doesn't indicate the location of your business and if the $275.00 kit price is in US dollars? Roderick. *From:* Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com *Sent:* Monday, August 13, 2012 3:14 PM *To:* sundial@uni-koeln.de *Subject:* sundials in schools My website is finally done It's about putting in analemmatic sundials in schools. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoW-Kl_kaxw http://www.sundialsforlearning.com/ Cheers Donald 0423 102 090 This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorizeduse of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5196 - Release Date: 08/12/12 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5196 - Release Date: 08/12/12 --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: sundials in schools
Well done. This is a useful instruction website. Regards, Roger Bailey From: Donald Christensen Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:14 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: sundials in schools My website is finally done It's about putting in analemmatic sundials in schools. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoW-Kl_kaxw http://www.sundialsforlearning.com/ Cheers Donald 0423 102 090 This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
sundials in schools
My website is finally done It's about putting in analemmatic sundials in schools. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoW-Kl_kaxw http://www.sundialsforlearning.com/ Cheers Donald 0423 102 090 This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorizeduse of this email is subject to penalty of law. So there! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Good afternoon Frank, Brilliant response. Here in Australia the nanny state is alive and thriving, so your thoughtful analysis would be welcomed by some local councils. Cheers, John John Pickard john.pick...@bigpond.com - Original Message - From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk To: John Carmichael jlcarmich...@comcast.net Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 1:57 AM Subject: Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ? Dear John You write... How in the world did your local Education Authority reach the absurd conclusion that interactive human analemmatics are dangerous for children. Have you never heard of the expression about being afraid of your own shadow? This is a well-known phobia which has to be taken seriously... Clearly, the Local Education Authority knew all about this risk and maybe had read about children going home in a state of shock after being forced to use their own shadows to tell the time. It gets worse... This would also be a case of using children as experimental subjects. As such, even written consent is insufficient. It has to be clear that you are giving *informed* consent too so you would need to take legal advice before giving such consent. You don't seem to appreciate what a dangerous business we are in :-) I can see that the paperwork involved in letting children loose on an analemmatic sundial is too horrendous to contemplate. Do they outlaw hopscotch too? Don't even think about it. You are getting very close to encouraging child abuse and someone will soon insist that this site is closed down. The world is mad. All the best Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Fw: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Setting aside the matter of Educational Authorities who cannot think (!), I also agree that you might like to give this another go in order to allow the Authority to think again. There is another type of dial you might try on them – one that can also be painted on the ground and where the person standing on it casts the shadow in a similar way to an analemmatic dial. This is the human nodus horizontal dial where the dial is a conventional (though large) horizontal dial and the person stands on the noon line at a point on a scale of heights such that the top of their head is at the same height as a real gnomon would be. These are strangely rare (at least in the UK) with only a few known. John Moir’s one at Poplar in London is a recent example (see the blurred image attached – I can email a better image) and it’s hard to see how any thinking person could object to something like this for children. Not only that but its operation is much easier to explain and to compare with conventional horizontal dials and also of course, given the solar time it can be used to determine the child’s height – something which they find fun. Patrickattachment: human dial.jpg--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
I am happy to live in my country, preferring a country already over one year without a governement to a governement so bureaucratic ! Willy Leenders Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium) Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): http://www.wijzerweb.be Op 23-apr-2011, om 01:27 heeft Martina Addiscott het volgende geschreven: In message 4bf91f91-2e43-4531-8fdb-e98e9db0f...@thebells.net David Bell db...@thebells.net wrote: The only conceivable problem that I could suggest is related to the complaints (were they also from the UK?) of outdoor dials being an attractive nuisance. I can see a flock of unruly kids pushing and shoving to each have a go at the dial. Eventually someone would get hurt, and the local Council doesn't want to be liable... Dave Firstly, thanks to everyone who took the trouble to reply to my query. I do not really have the time to respond to you all, individually - but hope that the following will explain the situation, (and the rather ridiculous attitude adopted by Councils plus Educational Authorities, within the UK). As at least some of you will know, schools must (under the law) conduct a risk assessment of any new addition to the school buildings or grounds. Just as mentioned by Dave Bell and Frank King (though they were probably intended as 'tongue-in-cheek' comments), that is EXACTLY why we cannot get permission for a 'dangerous' Human Sundial painted on to our playground. Basically, the powers that be think that there will be arguments and/or fights between the pupils who want to use it as intended - but also those children who want to use at the same time for other things (and, yes, the central 'scale-of-months' does indeed look a bit like a Hopscotch grid). Not only that, but they feel that enticing (their words, not mine) kids into the sunshine is a 'bad thing' - in case it increases their chance of developing skin cancer in the future, and the Educational Authority does not want to get sued for injuries or health-related compensation claims. I do not know whether this is true or not, (perhaps someone on this List can confirm) - but I was told that schools in Australia have BANNED the use of analemmatic dials on playgrounds, for sunshine/skin cancer reasons. It seems that children in Australian schools must by law wear protective clothing (and hats) when outside in sunshine, within the school grounds. Anything which increases 'exposure-time' to sun, is actively discouraged. At least in the UK, there seems to be a general opinion that any 'public' Human Sundials are a cause of trouble - and I was referred to this page on the Modern Sunclocks website at: www.sunclocks.com/pics/fs-015.htm For all of those above reasons, our request has fallen upon deaf ears, which then led to my request for details on any other 'Teaching Dials'. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
R: Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich von Schiller Greetings. Gian Casalegno--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Martina, et. al., In the world of contradiction that we live in, perhaps some recent articles from the UK itself regarding the NEED for sunlight on the skin would help your authorities come to a better conclusion. (below) After reading these, one would conclude that it would be irresponsible for the school to not have a program that sends students out to watch their shadows move for 15 minutes once a week. And, if the need to prevent students from wrestling each other to the pavement fighting for the right to be the gnomon, paint multiple smaller dials on the pavement so that everyone in the class can simultaneously participate. Sell the sundial as a low cost timer for the students' treatments. Larry Bohlayer - Dec. 10, 2010 New guidance on vitamin D recommends midday sunshine By Jane Dreaper Health correspondent, BBC News New health advice recommends short spells in the sun - without suncream and in the middle of the day. Seven organisations have issued joint advice on vitamin D, which the body gets from natural sunlight. The nutrient keeps bones strong, and protects against conditions like osteoporosis. The guidance was drawn up because it is thought fears about skin cancer have made people too cautious about being in the sun. Cancer Research UK and the National Osteoporosis Society are among the bodies which agree that little and frequent spells in summer sunshine several times a week can benefit your health. The experts now say it is fine to go outside in strong sun in the middle of the day, as long as you cover up or apply sunscreen before your skin goes red. Professor Rona Mackie, from the British Association of Dermatologists, said: Total sun protection with high factor suncream on all the time is not ideal, in terms of vitamin D levels. Even Australia has changed its policy on this. They're now producing charts showing parts of Australia where sun protection may not be required during some parts of the year. .rest of article at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12013332 - Sunlight is the most effective way for the body to manufacture Vitamin D. Yet in the UK, our bodies can only manufacture Vitamin D from exposure to the sun during the months of May to October. Outside of these months, the sun is simply not strong enough. MYTH: UNPROTECTED SUN EXPOSURE IS UNHEALTHY TRUTH: Although precautions do need to be taken, regular, moderate amounts of unprotected UV exposure are absolutely necessary for good health. Independent scientific research has shown that whether you live in a sunny or not-so-sunny climate, but expose yourself to sun, then your subsequent increased production of vitamin D will help lower the risk of a host of debilitating and fatal diseases including colon, breast, prostate and ovarian cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis and depression. . rest of article at http://www.sunbedassociation.org.uk/vitamind.php - Fair-skinned people only need around 15 minutes of direct sunlight to produce enough vitamin D to last for several days (although people with darker skin may need more exposure). And it's not suggested that this exposure to the sun has to be every day; instead, a few short exposures a week is considered to be plenty. .rest of article at http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/diet-fitness/soak-sun-%E2%80%94-benefits-vitam in-d-article-ulrb.html - --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: R: Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Maybe they need the type of sundial that doesn't cast a shadow but casts a spot of light. That way the kids can be in the shade. What might be fun for a class is to make a birthday window in the classroom. When a students birthday is approaching ask them to bring in a photo of themselves and stick it to the wall where the sun spot is shining. You could also mark holidays and vacation days, sure to attract the interest of kids. With their attention on the sunspot you could all watch the solstices come and go and determine the equinoxes. You could also watch the sun spot progress during the day and learn lots about declination. Simple and cheap to make, big display, and keeps kids safely away from the sunshine. brent On 4/23/2011 6:06 AM, sun.di...@libero.it wrote: Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich von Schiller Greetings. Gian Casalegno --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on to the playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us their permission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as basically they feel that such layouts are too dangerous for the children). It had also been suggested to us that a large globe-of-the-world might be a good way to cover the necessary aspects (Latitude/Longitude, daily rotation of the earth, night/day, annual change of seasons, etc) - but we feel that there has to be something better and more 'sundial-specific', if only we can trace suppliers of any suitable item being sold at a reasonable price. Len Honey at Science Replicas suggested an individual portable dial, for each pupil - but (apart from the cost), we think that those would soon get damaged (or simply 'go missing'). Instead, if this is possible, we would prefer one large 'demonstration' sundial - ideally in wood or plastic (not metal, as that would be expensive, plus too heavy for a teacher to hold). Though Mr Honey offered to have something specially designed/manufactured for volume sales to schools, it is likely to take some time to implement. Hence my plea to this Mailing List - asking if there are any 'commercial Teaching Sundials' already on the market, and if so, can anyone point me towards the supplier of them. We have a budget of 500 Pounds, for this. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Hi Martina, An analemmatic sundial may just be painted onto the pavement of the schoolyard, which should - after drying - take away any safety risks. Otherwise you might have a look at: - the Sun Disk from Astrovisuals, http://www.astrovisuals.com.au/SunDisc.html - the Sundial Science Construction Kit from Science Times, http://www.outtolearn.co.nz/product_info.php?products_id=5304 - the sundials (Sonnenuhren) from Astromedia, http://www.astromedia.de/ Good luck with your project, and let us know about the results and your experiences, positive as well as negative. That will comprise valuable information for many of us on the list! Best regards, Frans Maes www.fransmaes.nl/sundials On 22-4-2011 13:19, Martina Addiscott wrote: Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on to the playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us their permission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as basically they feel that such layouts are too dangerous for the children). It had also been suggested to us that a large globe-of-the-world might be a good way to cover the necessary aspects (Latitude/Longitude, daily rotation of the earth, night/day, annual change of seasons, etc) - but we feel that there has to be something better and more 'sundial-specific', if only we can trace suppliers of any suitable item being sold at a reasonable price. Len Honey at Science Replicas suggested an individual portable dial, for each pupil - but (apart from the cost), we think that those would soon get damaged (or simply 'go missing'). Instead, if this is possible, we would prefer one large 'demonstration' sundial - ideally in wood or plastic (not metal, as that would be expensive, plus too heavy for a teacher to hold). Though Mr Honey offered to have something specially designed/manufactured for volume sales to schools, it is likely to take some time to implement. Hence my plea to this Mailing List - asking if there are any 'commercial Teaching Sundials' already on the market, and if so, can anyone point me towards the supplier of them. We have a budget of 500 Pounds, for this. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
On 22/04/2011 12:19, Martina Addiscott wrote: Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. Hi Martin, You may be interested in my educational 'Multi-dial' which very clearly demonstrates the relationship between four of the most common sundials (Equatorial. horizontal,vertical and polar). A jpeg is too large for the SML so I'll email you a copy separately. (copies available on request for recent members of SML). The dial can be used outdoors in the sunshine or indoors using any suitable bright electric light for classroom demonstrations on a dull day. A 12 volt car headlamp bulb on the end of a 'wand' is ideal but any bright table lamp will do. The example in my photo' is only about 200mm wide but a larger one made of plywood would serve for whole-class demonstrations. One comment made about it was that it conveys the ideas so clearly there is little left to explain. A good fault perhaps. If you've not already seen it then How Sundials Work on the BSS website could be useful too. http://www.sundialsoc.org.uk/HDSW.htm Tony Moss --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Harriet James Sunnydials 35 Bradley Road Warminster BA12 8BN www.sunnydials.co.uk Tel: 01985 216311 On Fri 22/04/11 12:19 PM , Martina Addiscott martina.addisc...@gmail.com sent: Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', whichwould be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science sectionof that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on tothe playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us theirpermission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Harriet James Sunnydials 35 Bradley Road Warminster BA12 8BN www.sunnydials.co.uk Tel: 01985 216311 On Fri 22/04/11 12:19 PM , Martina Addiscott martina.addisc...@gmail.com sent: Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', whichwould be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science sectionof that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on tothe playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us theirpermission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
If I ever find a child who shows any interest in sundials, I give them a copy of Sundials and Timedials from Tarquin publications. See: http://www.tarquingroup.com/product.php?SKU_Code=438 Only £5.95 a copy and there are loads of paper dials to make of all different types. Mike Shaw 53º 22'N 03º02'W www.wiz.to/sundials --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Hi Martina: I'm most curious. How in the world did your local Education Authority reach the absurd conclusion that interactive human analemmatics are dangerous for children. Do they outlaw hopscotch too? John Carmichael -Original Message- From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Martina Addiscott Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 4:19 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ? Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on to the playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us their permission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as basically they feel that such layouts are too dangerous for the children). It had also been suggested to us that a large globe-of-the-world might be a good way to cover the necessary aspects (Latitude/Longitude, daily rotation of the earth, night/day, annual change of seasons, etc) - but we feel that there has to be something better and more 'sundial-specific', if only we can trace suppliers of any suitable item being sold at a reasonable price. Len Honey at Science Replicas suggested an individual portable dial, for each pupil - but (apart from the cost), we think that those would soon get damaged (or simply 'go missing'). Instead, if this is possible, we would prefer one large 'demonstration' sundial - ideally in wood or plastic (not metal, as that would be expensive, plus too heavy for a teacher to hold). Though Mr Honey offered to have something specially designed/manufactured for volume sales to schools, it is likely to take some time to implement. Hence my plea to this Mailing List - asking if there are any 'commercial Teaching Sundials' already on the market, and if so, can anyone point me towards the supplier of them. We have a budget of 500 Pounds, for this. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Martina I suggest you try again with a walk-on dial. Just show some photos of them in use to the School Board. I have a walk-on dial program for schools and have had questions from school heads about the danger of ' falling on the pointed thing' to questions about the religious bias of zodiac signs. The 'pointed things' are of course the kids themselves, and walk-ons do not have zodiac signs (except sometimes as pure decoration; and anyway they predate Christ and Mohammed by at least 1000 years). I also use cardboard cutouts for the kids to make ordinary horizontal dials, at least a few take them home and put them in a south facing window. Also the Shepherd's dial creates interest when you explain the French shepherds in the mountains used them hung on their belts to tell them when to take the sheep into safety away from the wolves. With 500 quid you can get a very good walk-on and lots of cardboard dials! Brian Albinson On 04/22/2011 4:19 AM, Martina Addiscott wrote: Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on to the playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us their permission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as basically they feel that such layouts are too dangerous for the children). It had also been suggested to us that a large globe-of-the-world might be a good way to cover the necessary aspects (Latitude/Longitude, daily rotation of the earth, night/day, annual change of seasons, etc) - but we feel that there has to be something better and more 'sundial-specific', if only we can trace suppliers of any suitable item being sold at a reasonable price. Len Honey at Science Replicas suggested an individual portable dial, for each pupil - but (apart from the cost), we think that those would soon get damaged (or simply 'go missing'). Instead, if this is possible, we would prefer one large 'demonstration' sundial - ideally in wood or plastic (not metal, as that would be expensive, plus too heavy for a teacher to hold). Though Mr Honey offered to have something specially designed/manufactured for volume sales to schools, it is likely to take some time to implement. Hence my plea to this Mailing List - asking if there are any 'commercial Teaching Sundials' already on the market, and if so, can anyone point me towards the supplier of them. We have a budget of 500 Pounds, for this. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Dear John You write... How in the world did your local Education Authority reach the absurd conclusion that interactive human analemmatics are dangerous for children. Have you never heard of the expression about being afraid of your own shadow? This is a well-known phobia which has to be taken seriously... Clearly, the Local Education Authority knew all about this risk and maybe had read about children going home in a state of shock after being forced to use their own shadows to tell the time. It gets worse... This would also be a case of using children as experimental subjects. As such, even written consent is insufficient. It has to be clear that you are giving *informed* consent too so you would need to take legal advice before giving such consent. You don't seem to appreciate what a dangerous business we are in :-) I can see that the paperwork involved in letting children loose on an analemmatic sundial is too horrendous to contemplate. Do they outlaw hopscotch too? Don't even think about it. You are getting very close to encouraging child abuse and someone will soon insist that this site is closed down. The world is mad. All the best Frank --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
The British Sundial Society has an excellent book 'Make a Sundial' most recently updated by Jane Walker, originally brought out in response to the National Curriculum's inclusion of sundials. All sorts of ideas in it. Painted analemmatic sundials present NO HAZARD to children. If the Education Authority can give you one well-substantiated hazard, I'd be very surprised. There's more danger going in and out of a door, which they must all do at least ten times a day. David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
The only conceivable problem that I could suggest is related to the complaints (were they also from the UK?) of outdoor dials being an attractive nuisance. I can see a flock of unruly kids pushing and shoving to each have a go at the dial. Eventually someone would get hurt, and the local Council doesn't want to be liable... Dave Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2011, at 9:05 AM, David M Brown da...@davidbrownsundials.com wrote: The British Sundial Society has an excellent book 'Make a Sundial' most recently updated by Jane Walker, originally brought out in response to the National Curriculum's inclusion of sundials. All sorts of ideas in it. Painted analemmatic sundials present NO HAZARD to children. If the Education Authority can give you one well-substantiated hazard, I'd be very surprised. There's more danger going in and out of a door, which they must all do at least ten times a day. David Brown Somerton, Somerset, UK --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Hello Martina, Setting aside the matter of Educational Authorities who cannot think (!), I also agree that you might like to give this another go in order to allow the Authority to think again. There is another type of dial you might try on them – one that can also be painted on the ground and where the person standing on it casts the shadow in a similar way to an analemmatic dial. This is the human nodus horizontal dial where the dial is a conventional (though large) horizontal dial and the person stands on the noon line at a point on a scale of heights such that the top of their head is at the same height as a real gnomon would be. These are strangely rare (at least in the UK) with only a few known. John Moir’s one at Poplar in London is a recent example and it’s hard to see how any thinking person could object to something like this for children. Not only that but its operation is much easier to explain and to compare with conventional horizontal dials and also of course, given the solar time it can be used to determine the child’s height – something which they find fun. If you are interested there is an image of John’s really excellent dial in Aberfeldy Millennium Green, Poplar, London E14 at this URL: http://www.ppowers.com/poplar.htm Patrick From: Martina Addiscott Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 12:19 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials',for schools ? Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on to the playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us their permission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as basically they feel that such layouts are too dangerous for the children). It had also been suggested to us that a large globe-of-the-world might be a good way to cover the necessary aspects (Latitude/Longitude, daily rotation of the earth, night/day, annual change of seasons, etc) - but we feel that there has to be something better and more 'sundial-specific', if only we can trace suppliers of any suitable item being sold at a reasonable price. Len Honey at Science Replicas suggested an individual portable dial, for each pupil - but (apart from the cost), we think that those would soon get damaged (or simply 'go missing'). Instead, if this is possible, we would prefer one large 'demonstration' sundial - ideally in wood or plastic (not metal, as that would be expensive, plus too heavy for a teacher to hold). Though Mr Honey offered to have something specially designed/manufactured for volume sales to schools, it is likely to take some time to implement. Hence my plea to this Mailing List - asking if there are any 'commercial Teaching Sundials' already on the market, and if so, can anyone point me towards the supplier of them. We have a budget of 500 Pounds, for this. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Hello Martina, Setting aside the matter of Educational Authorities who cannot think (!), I also agree that you might like to give this another go in order to allow the Authority to think again. There is another type of dial you might try on them – one that can also be painted on the ground and where the person standing on it casts the shadow in a similar way to an analemmatic dial. This is the human nodus horizontal dial where the dial is a conventional (though large) horizontal dial and the person stands on the noon line at a point on a scale of heights such that the top of their head is at the same height as a real gnomon would be. These are strangely rare (at least in the UK) with only a few known. John Moir’s one at Poplar in London is a recent example and it’s hard to see how any thinking person could object to something like this for children. Not only that but its operation is much easier to explain and to compare with conventional horizontal dials and also of course, given the solar time it can be used to determine the child’s height – something which they find fun. If you are interested there is an image of John’s really excellent dial in Aberfeldy Millennium Green, Poplar, London E14 at this URL: http://www.ppowers.com/poplar.htm Patrick -Original Message- From: Martina Addiscott martina.addisc...@gmail.com To: sundial sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Fri, Apr 22, 2011 8:33 am Subject: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ? Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on to the playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us their permission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as basically they feel that such layouts are too dangerous for the children). It had also been suggested to us that a large globe-of-the-world might be a good way to cover the necessary aspects (Latitude/Longitude, daily rotation of the earth, night/day, annual change of seasons, etc) - but we feel that there has to be something better and more 'sundial-specific', if only we can trace suppliers of any suitable item being sold at a reasonable price. Len Honey at Science Replicas suggested an individual portable dial, for each pupil - but (apart from the cost), we think that those would soon get damaged (or simply 'go missing'). Instead, if this is possible, we would prefer one large 'demonstration' sundial - ideally in wood or plastic (not metal, as that would be expensive, plus too heavy for a teacher to hold). Though Mr Honey offered to have something specially designed/manufactured for volume sales to schools, it is likely to take some time to implement. Hence my plea to this Mailing List - asking if there are any 'commercial Teaching Sundials' already on the market, and if so, can anyone point me towards the supplier of them. We have a budget of 500 Pounds, for this. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ? - YES!
Hi Matina and friends, A couple of years ago I had the good fortune to be responsible for the sundials case study on the Bowland DVD that was sent to all state schools in the UK. This DVD contains 21 case studies for 11-14 year olds to use in mathematics lessons, the objective being to enthuse them about mathematics. The materials can be downloaded free of charge in the UK by visiting www.bowlandmaths.org.uk Then click on 'Run the Bowland Player online' Then click on 'The case Studies' and find the sundials one - there's LOTS of sundial related material there which was tested in schools and made it through to the final DVD. All mathematics faculties in state schools in the UK received this DVD. However outside the UK there is a charge of £200 for the DVD since the cost of all the work was met by the Bowland Charitable Organisation. Enjoy! Peter Ransom Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:19:19 +0100 From: martina.addisc...@gmail.com To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ? Is anyone aware of a commercially-available large 'Teaching Sundial', which would be suitable for fulfilling that part of the UK National Curriculum ? As many of you no doubt know, sundials are included in the Science section of that curriculum, but each school decides for themselves how to cover it. We had originally intended to mark an interactive analemmatic dial on to the playground - but our local Educational Authority will not give us their permission for that, because of the 'health and safety' implications (as basically they feel that such layouts are too dangerous for the children). It had also been suggested to us that a large globe-of-the-world might be a good way to cover the necessary aspects (Latitude/Longitude, daily rotation of the earth, night/day, annual change of seasons, etc) - but we feel that there has to be something better and more 'sundial-specific', if only we can trace suppliers of any suitable item being sold at a reasonable price. Len Honey at Science Replicas suggested an individual portable dial, for each pupil - but (apart from the cost), we think that those would soon get damaged (or simply 'go missing'). Instead, if this is possible, we would prefer one large 'demonstration' sundial - ideally in wood or plastic (not metal, as that would be expensive, plus too heavy for a teacher to hold). Though Mr Honey offered to have something specially designed/manufactured for volume sales to schools, it is likely to take some time to implement. Hence my plea to this Mailing List - asking if there are any 'commercial Teaching Sundials' already on the market, and if so, can anyone point me towards the supplier of them. We have a budget of 500 Pounds, for this. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
In message 4bf91f91-2e43-4531-8fdb-e98e9db0f...@thebells.net David Bell db...@thebells.net wrote: The only conceivable problem that I could suggest is related to the complaints (were they also from the UK?) of outdoor dials being an attractive nuisance. I can see a flock of unruly kids pushing and shoving to each have a go at the dial. Eventually someone would get hurt, and the local Council doesn't want to be liable... Dave Firstly, thanks to everyone who took the trouble to reply to my query. I do not really have the time to respond to you all, individually - but hope that the following will explain the situation, (and the rather ridiculous attitude adopted by Councils plus Educational Authorities, within the UK). As at least some of you will know, schools must (under the law) conduct a risk assessment of any new addition to the school buildings or grounds. Just as mentioned by Dave Bell and Frank King (though they were probably intended as 'tongue-in-cheek' comments), that is EXACTLY why we cannot get permission for a 'dangerous' Human Sundial painted on to our playground. Basically, the powers that be think that there will be arguments and/or fights between the pupils who want to use it as intended - but also those children who want to use at the same time for other things (and, yes, the central 'scale-of-months' does indeed look a bit like a Hopscotch grid). Not only that, but they feel that enticing (their words, not mine) kids into the sunshine is a 'bad thing' - in case it increases their chance of developing skin cancer in the future, and the Educational Authority does not want to get sued for injuries or health-related compensation claims. I do not know whether this is true or not, (perhaps someone on this List can confirm) - but I was told that schools in Australia have BANNED the use of analemmatic dials on playgrounds, for sunshine/skin cancer reasons. It seems that children in Australian schools must by law wear protective clothing (and hats) when outside in sunshine, within the school grounds. Anything which increases 'exposure-time' to sun, is actively discouraged. At least in the UK, there seems to be a general opinion that any 'public' Human Sundials are a cause of trouble - and I was referred to this page on the Modern Sunclocks website at: www.sunclocks.com/pics/fs-015.htm For all of those above reasons, our request has fallen upon deaf ears, which then led to my request for details on any other 'Teaching Dials'. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
And I thought we had a near monopoly on stupidity in bureaucracy and litigation phobia in the US! Very, very sad... Dave -Original Message- From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Martina Addiscott Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 4:27 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials',for schools ? In message 4bf91f91-2e43-4531-8fdb-e98e9db0f...@thebells.net David Bell db...@thebells.net wrote: The only conceivable problem that I could suggest is related to the complaints (were they also from the UK?) of outdoor dials being an attractive nuisance. I can see a flock of unruly kids pushing and shoving to each have a go at the dial. Eventually someone would get hurt, and the local Council doesn't want to be liable... Dave Firstly, thanks to everyone who took the trouble to reply to my query. I do not really have the time to respond to you all, individually - but hope that the following will explain the situation, (and the rather ridiculous attitude adopted by Councils plus Educational Authorities, within the UK). As at least some of you will know, schools must (under the law) conduct a risk assessment of any new addition to the school buildings or grounds. Just as mentioned by Dave Bell and Frank King (though they were probably intended as 'tongue-in-cheek' comments), that is EXACTLY why we cannot get permission for a 'dangerous' Human Sundial painted on to our playground. Basically, the powers that be think that there will be arguments and/or fights between the pupils who want to use it as intended - but also those children who want to use at the same time for other things (and, yes, the central 'scale-of-months' does indeed look a bit like a Hopscotch grid). Not only that, but they feel that enticing (their words, not mine) kids into the sunshine is a 'bad thing' - in case it increases their chance of developing skin cancer in the future, and the Educational Authority does not want to get sued for injuries or health-related compensation claims. I do not know whether this is true or not, (perhaps someone on this List can confirm) - but I was told that schools in Australia have BANNED the use of analemmatic dials on playgrounds, for sunshine/skin cancer reasons. It seems that children in Australian schools must by law wear protective clothing (and hats) when outside in sunshine, within the school grounds. Anything which increases 'exposure-time' to sun, is actively discouraged. At least in the UK, there seems to be a general opinion that any 'public' Human Sundials are a cause of trouble - and I was referred to this page on the Modern Sunclocks website at: www.sunclocks.com/pics/fs-015.htm For all of those above reasons, our request has fallen upon deaf ears, which then led to my request for details on any other 'Teaching Dials'. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ?
Me too. So much so, as an American I had to share Martina's and Dave's last post with my British wife who thinks the Americans are just sue happy Hard to believe that there was a day when people sued far more often in the States than now. And more importantly how such concerns too often override such easy interactive learning experiences for our youth Thad Weakley Montreal, Quebec --- On Fri, 4/22/11, Dave Bell db...@thebells.net wrote: From: Dave Bell db...@thebells.net Subject: RE: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials', for schools ? To: 'Martina Addiscott' martina.addisc...@gmail.com, sundial@uni-koeln.de Received: Friday, April 22, 2011, 8:31 PM And I thought we had a near monopoly on stupidity in bureaucracy and litigation phobia in the US! Very, very sad... Dave -Original Message- From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Martina Addiscott Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 4:27 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Are there any commercially-available 'Teaching Sundials',for schools ? In message 4bf91f91-2e43-4531-8fdb-e98e9db0f...@thebells.net David Bell db...@thebells.net wrote: The only conceivable problem that I could suggest is related to the complaints (were they also from the UK?) of outdoor dials being an attractive nuisance. I can see a flock of unruly kids pushing and shoving to each have a go at the dial. Eventually someone would get hurt, and the local Council doesn't want to be liable... Dave Firstly, thanks to everyone who took the trouble to reply to my query. I do not really have the time to respond to you all, individually - but hope that the following will explain the situation, (and the rather ridiculous attitude adopted by Councils plus Educational Authorities, within the UK). As at least some of you will know, schools must (under the law) conduct a risk assessment of any new addition to the school buildings or grounds. Just as mentioned by Dave Bell and Frank King (though they were probably intended as 'tongue-in-cheek' comments), that is EXACTLY why we cannot get permission for a 'dangerous' Human Sundial painted on to our playground. Basically, the powers that be think that there will be arguments and/or fights between the pupils who want to use it as intended - but also those children who want to use at the same time for other things (and, yes, the central 'scale-of-months' does indeed look a bit like a Hopscotch grid). Not only that, but they feel that enticing (their words, not mine) kids into the sunshine is a 'bad thing' - in case it increases their chance of developing skin cancer in the future, and the Educational Authority does not want to get sued for injuries or health-related compensation claims. I do not know whether this is true or not, (perhaps someone on this List can confirm) - but I was told that schools in Australia have BANNED the use of analemmatic dials on playgrounds, for sunshine/skin cancer reasons. It seems that children in Australian schools must by law wear protective clothing (and hats) when outside in sunshine, within the school grounds. Anything which increases 'exposure-time' to sun, is actively discouraged. At least in the UK, there seems to be a general opinion that any 'public' Human Sundials are a cause of trouble - and I was referred to this page on the Modern Sunclocks website at: www.sunclocks.com/pics/fs-015.htm For all of those above reasons, our request has fallen upon deaf ears, which then led to my request for details on any other 'Teaching Dials'. Sincerely, Martina Addiscott. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
