Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
On 2014-03-05, seva, soundcurrent mastering wrote: yes i believe Ambisonics (and real life) would be 4D. that is a traditional University definition of time-based media (film, video, sound). Heh, you might argue that mono is 0D, pantophony 1D, and periphony 2D, based on the intrinsic dimensionality of the emitting manifold and/or the minimal parametrization of direction. If you just *have* to add amplitude control -- nowadays of course not a given -- you just got upto 3D. So why on earth do we need four channels for B-format? Well, that's about representation theory and the role of time; if you want to assign a physical interpretation to that, it'd have to do with direction of propagation, and the possibility of standing fields. The sanest way I can think of it'll is to think of mono as 0D, stereo as .5D, pantophony as 1D, periphony as 2D and filling up the whole space with emitters as 2.5D, since it in theory yields unlimited parallax as well. No such thing as 3D audio can exist, because an intrinsically 3D emitter would require a 4+1D space to radiate into. ;) -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
On 2014-03-07, Timothy Schmele wrote: A large space coming out of a mono speaker sounds like a large space coming out of a mono speaker. It does. But with a proper mono recording -- instead of just a stereo fold down -- and a proper speaker -- e.g. an omni in a relatively dead room -- even mono can be spectacular. Especially with some practice, like we've all had with the stereo pair and its abject phasing, pulling and whatnot. Few people on this list would willingly go down to mono, given a chance. Of course. But few of us have actually heard professional quality mono playback either. So I'd argue we tend to overestimate the benefits of stereo, especially since for most music out there relies on center panned vocals, melody, drums etc. which mono actually does much more solidly than phantom stereo, because most of the important envelopment cues can be substituted for by a lively room (cf. Ralph Glascal's Ambiophonics work), and because every other system besides mono *too* is an acquired and practiced habit. Just monitor your own reactions when you next hear dialogue coming from a hard center, with the actor on screen actually appearing at the middle. With the right movie and the right theatre, that's pretty much as close you get to proper mono. And it really can be spectacular: at low amplitudes, closing your eyes, it can sometimes sound fully transparent, like there was an actual person there. But then in general you probably won't like it with your eyes open. Why? Because most of us, me included, have already ruined our ears with stereo-the-so-called-solid. The fiction it presents us with by now sounds more normal and lifelike than even the physically more accurate mono dialogue or lead voice. I'm not too sure that is a good thing. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
On Sun, Mar 09, 2014 at 02:00:28AM +0200, Sampo Syreeni wrote: I'm not too sure that is a good thing. I'm not too sure it's true. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
On 2014-03-09, Fons Adriaensen wrote: I'm not too sure that is a good thing. I'm not too sure it's true. Nor should you be. So do try it out. You do have the equipment, the space, and perhaps even the research funding. Why not make the anecdote into a hypothesis, and then a full fledge theorem? ;) -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
Michael Chapman wrote: ... I always remember one teacher commenting on speech, that you can apply* any standard effect and it is still intelligible, except playing it backwards. Not saying that it couldn't be learnt ... Indeed it can. When I was in high school, many moons ago, there was a brief fad for talking backwards. The participants began by reversing only the order of words in a sentence, but progressed to reversing the individual words as well. They became very proficient at this, and could reverse a long sentence after only a second or two of thought. I never took part; I thought it was silly. Regards, Nitram -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
A large space coming out of a mono speaker sounds like a large space coming out of a mono speaker. There is no illusion, there is only what *is*, which is the matter of what is presented to you. The medium through which a sound is presented is just as present. Icons may exist, but they are still icons presented through a single point source, a space squashed into sound singularity. I assume if you would compare the sound of a bird through a mono speaker and a periphonic higher order ambisonic recording, you hear a difference. Hence, of what quality would you call this difference, if you already call a mono reproduction 3D? On 3/7/14 2:07 AM, etienne deleflie wrote: Mono could also be understood as 4D (or 3D space) in the sense that one can easily recognise certain acoustic spaces with a mono recording. such as a recording of someone talking in a church. There will be very clear cues, within that recording, that the voice was captured within a large space that has high ceilings and is bounded by hard surfaces. The difference, of course, is that here the perception of space occurs through 'references' that exist within the sound rather than through experiencing the simulation or mimesis of sensory data. And by extension a piece of music performed by an orchestra can also be understood as 4D in the sense that musical form can also allude to space. In the mono sound recording the reference to space can be classified as an 'icon' (after Peirce's Semiological framework) the captured reverberation 'sounds similar' to the sound of a real experienced church. In a piece of music, the reference might be 'indexical': if you hear a bird-like sound, it might reference some form of height. That said, some pieces of music, such as Ligeti's Lontano, very clearly reference space as 'icons'. The long slow changes in sound loundness 'sound similar' to the real-world witnessing of moving through large landscapes. The important question, for the composer, is which holds the greater aesthetic movement? Is it the illusion of reality that is possible with technology and simulation? ... or is it the realm of meaning that the listener is enveloped by when listening to musical form? Etienne On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/707e58e6/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Documento sin título *Timothy Schmele* *Audio Researcher *http://www.barcelonamedia.org/ *Barcelona Media* Av. Diagonal 177, 08018 Barcelona, Spain. Tel: (+34) 932 381 400 | Mob: (+34) 673 986 061 | Fax: (+34) 933 093 188 tim.schm...@barcelonamedia.org mailto:tim.schm...@barcelonamedia.org | www.barcelonamedia.org http://www.barcelonamedia.org/ http://www.facebook.com/pages/Barcelona-Media/248401718551715 https://twitter.com/#%21/barcelona_media http://www.youtube.com/user/BarcelonaMediaTV http://www.linkedin.com/company/293860?trk=tyah CONFIDENCIALITAT: Aquest missatge és confidencial i per a ús exclusiu del seu destinatari. RESPECTEM EL MEDI AMBIENT: Necessita realment imprimir aquest missatge? ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
Hi Tim, A higher order ambisonic full-periphony presentation of a bird is a simulation or a mimetic representation of the behaviour of sound (of a sound) in space. It is a form of presentation that is well characterised by academic concerned with the notion of 'presence'. One very useful definition of the word 'presence' is provided by Lombard and Ditton who say that presence can be understood as the illusion of non-mediation. In other words, there is a suspension of disbelief ... and at some point, the listener accepts that what is heard is real instead of merely simulated (or mediated). At no point, would a listener accept that an orchestral performance of a work, say by Messiaen, is actually a bird. But in a Messiaen work, the notion of a bird may well be referenced. And that brings with it qualities of space. My point is (or my interest is): what is the aesthetic movement of the illusion of reality? (as opposed to mere 'signs'). How do illusions of reality contribute to the aesthetic worth, or the expression, of a composition? You might say that it brings the suspension of disbelief ... but when a listener sits down in a concert hall they have already accepted, they have already agreed, to suspend disbelief. Otherwise, instead of hearing 'music' they would hear instruments. Etienne On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Timothy Schmele tim.schm...@barcelonamedia.org wrote: A large space coming out of a mono speaker sounds like a large space coming out of a mono speaker. There is no illusion, there is only what *is*, which is the matter of what is presented to you. The medium through which a sound is presented is just as present. Icons may exist, but they are still icons presented through a single point source, a space squashed into sound singularity. I assume if you would compare the sound of a bird through a mono speaker and a periphonic higher order ambisonic recording, you hear a difference. Hence, of what quality would you call this difference, if you already call a mono reproduction 3D? On 3/7/14 2:07 AM, etienne deleflie wrote: Mono could also be understood as 4D (or 3D space) in the sense that one can easily recognise certain acoustic spaces with a mono recording. such as a recording of someone talking in a church. There will be very clear cues, within that recording, that the voice was captured within a large space that has high ceilings and is bounded by hard surfaces. The difference, of course, is that here the perception of space occurs through 'references' that exist within the sound rather than through experiencing the simulation or mimesis of sensory data. And by extension a piece of music performed by an orchestra can also be understood as 4D in the sense that musical form can also allude to space. In the mono sound recording the reference to space can be classified as an 'icon' (after Peirce's Semiological framework) the captured reverberation 'sounds similar' to the sound of a real experienced church. In a piece of music, the reference might be 'indexical': if you hear a bird-like sound, it might reference some form of height. That said, some pieces of music, such as Ligeti's Lontano, very clearly reference space as 'icons'. The long slow changes in sound loundness 'sound similar' to the real-world witnessing of moving through large landscapes. The important question, for the composer, is which holds the greater aesthetic movement? Is it the illusion of reality that is possible with technology and simulation? ... or is it the realm of meaning that the listener is enveloped by when listening to musical form? Etienne On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/707e58e6/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Documento sin título *Timothy
[Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/3b86830f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/707e58e6/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
Nah With my Serious Bloke hat on: Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener. Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the listener. Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right. Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if it would work.) Eero 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Dave Excellent, I've always liked the concept of kiosk/cabin (as in telephone) individual immersion audio. ... I am presuming that 4DSOUND is a unique installation, 256 square meters is a typo for '4DSOUND is a unique installation, 256 hypercubic metres' ... which gives a space of 4m x 4m x 4m x 4m. Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
I refuse to be outgimmicked, I am pioneering 5 d sound as we speak... On 5 March 2014 12:05, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Dave Excellent, I've always liked the concept of kiosk/cabin (as in telephone) individual immersion audio. ... I am presuming that 4DSOUND is a unique installation, 256 square meters is a typo for '4DSOUND is a unique installation, 256 hypercubic metres' ... which gives a space of 4m x 4m x 4m x 4m. Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- 07580951119 augustine.leudar.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/d3af0a34/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
There is no sound without time, so time being a dimension should strictly speaking always result in a +1 on the dimension count from traditional accounting... Ronald On 5 Mar 2014, at 12:53, Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi wrote: Nah With my Serious Bloke hat on: Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener. Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the listener. Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right. Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if it would work.) Eero 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
My point exactly [?] On 5 March 2014 12:30, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: There is no sound without time, so time being a dimension should strictly speaking always result in a +1 on the dimension count from traditional accounting... Ronald On 5 Mar 2014, at 12:53, Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi wrote: Nah With my Serious Bloke hat on: Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener. Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the listener. Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right. Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if it would work.) Eero 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/0d257c32/attachment.html -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 96 bytes Desc: not available URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/0d257c32/attachment.gif ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
can we turn sound into matter? we can then have a whole new range of wmds (apart from a street in old delhi which sells objects contributing to about 6 db of the total noise in India). I think we should stop upping numbers and up the alphabet part instead. like 4E. why not? umashankar Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 12:36:13 + From: dave.mal...@york.ac.uk To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!) My point exactly [?] On 5 March 2014 12:30, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: There is no sound without time, so time being a dimension should strictly speaking always result in a +1 on the dimension count from traditional accounting... Ronald On 5 Mar 2014, at 12:53, Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi wrote: Nah With my Serious Bloke hat on: Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener. Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the listener. Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right. Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if it would work.) Eero 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/0d257c32/attachment.html -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 96 bytes Desc: not available URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/0d257c32/attachment.gif ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/ee354079/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
There is no sound without time, so time being a dimension should strictly speaking always result in a +1 on the dimension count from traditional accounting... Ronald Following Eero's notation, surely we should add + 0.5 D . . . unless we can move back in time Mind you some days I feel my 'progress' in time is not uniform but has some waveform 'mixed' with it ... Michael On 5 Mar 2014, at 12:53, Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi wrote: Nah With my Serious Bloke hat on: Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener. Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the listener. Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right. Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if it would work.) Eero 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
yes i believe Ambisonics (and real life) would be 4D. that is a traditional University definition of time-based media (film, video, sound). plus, i'd like to say that i do experience IMD in the 4th dimension. On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:49 AM, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote: There is no sound without time, so time being a dimension should strictly speaking always result in a +1 on the dimension count from traditional accounting... Ronald Following Eero's notation, surely we should add + 0.5 D . . . unless we can move back in time Mind you some days I feel my 'progress' in time is not uniform but has some waveform 'mixed' with it ... Michael On 5 Mar 2014, at 12:53, Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi wrote: Nah With my Serious Bloke hat on: Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener. Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the listener. Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right. Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if it would work.) Eero 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/f0790bab/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
Hi, Very confusing this dimension business. Yes, sound always takes place in time. So does everything else. But `space has 3D implications. Spacetime is described in wikipedia as any mathematical model that combines space and time into a single interwoven continuum. This seems to describe completely what we're considering, but as sound means time 3D sound is accurate and adequate. Unless 4D sound is drawing on bits of string theory, and possibly extendable to 11D, or includes some other sense (smellosound ??) it is just marketing hype. Ciao, Dave 1. 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 2. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Ronald C.F. Antony) 3. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 4. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Eero Aro) 5. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Michael Chapman) 6. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Augustine Leudar) 7. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Ronald C.F. Antony) 8. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 9. Re: 4 D sound (!) (umashankar manthravadi) 10. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Michael Chapman) From: Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk Date: 5 March 2014 10:58:33 GMT To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!) Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists- explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/20140305/3b86830f/attachment.html From: Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com Date: 5 March 2014 11:08:56 GMT To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!) Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists- explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald From: Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk Date: 5 March 2014 11:42:30 GMT To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!) Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists- explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ attachments/20140305/707e58e6/attachment.html From: Eero Aro eero@dlc.fi Date: 5 March 2014 11:53:12 GMT To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!) Reply-To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Nah With my Serious Bloke hat on: Mono is 0,5 D sound. Distance and depth in front of the listener. Stereo is 1,5 D sound. Left-Right / distance and depth in front of the listener. Pantophonics is 2D. Front-Back, Left-Right. Periphonics is 3D. Front-Back, Left-Right, Up-Down. (Binaural also, if it would work.) Eero 5.3.2014 13:42, Dave Malham kirjoitti: Ah, but if that's the case, mono is 2-D sound, stereo is 3-D sound :-) On 5 March 2014 11:08, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 5 Mar 2014, at 11:58, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio- artists-explore-4dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max- lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Time, it's 3-D sound in Space-Time ;) Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound From: Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com Date: 5 March 2014 12:05:02 GMT To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] 4 D
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
Hi again, Marketing hype that is made up by those with a poor scientific education to fool others. Like those devices that can digitise your CD collection, or newspaper articles that tell you how to do it. Ciao, Dave 1. 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 2. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Ronald C.F. Antony) 3. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 4. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Eero Aro) 5. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Michael Chapman) 6. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Augustine Leudar) 7. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Ronald C.F. Antony) 8. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 9. Re: 4 D sound (!) (umashankar manthravadi) 10. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Michael Chapman) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/bf5ca9b2/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
Yeah, and stretch and compress. And warp, and whatever. :-) Eero 5.3.2014 22:04, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: Actually, with recorded media one can scrub back and forth through time, so it would still be +1D Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
M-theory of sound -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 5:59 AM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!) And now, 4-D sound http://createdigitalmusic.com/2014/03/full-immersion-audio-artists-explore-4 dsound-spatial-grid-omni-speakers-ableton-max-lemur/ X, Y, Z and... Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140305/3b8 6830f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] 4 D sound (!)
At 23:43 05-03-14, Aaron Heller wrote: On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 1:52 PM, David Pickett d...@fugato.com wrote: At 21:06 05-03-14, Dave Hunt wrote: 1. 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 2. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Ronald C.F. Antony) 3. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 4. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Eero Aro) 5. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Michael Chapman) 6. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Augustine Leudar) 7. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Ronald C.F. Antony) 8. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Dave Malham) 9. Re: 4 D sound (!) (umashankar manthravadi) 10. Re: 4 D sound (!) (Michael Chapman) And I thought music was a scalar quantity... The Fourier basis has a countably infinite number of dimensions. Maybe so, but my fingers only go from left to right (a.k.a. up and down) and back again on the keyboards of my harpsichords. (Though I will admit that fingers also move sideways on stringed instruments...) David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
