Re: [biofuels-biz] Genetic Engineering
Thank you, Keith, for your very ood arguments Regards Reinhard Henning Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Chuck Strictly from the standpoint of efficiency, growing a plant that produced an acceptable yield of fuel for diesel engines without processing any further than extraction and filtering is nearly ideal. We do need people hanging around with a healthy dose of skepticism, but running away from the future because some aspects of that future appear to carry risks is worse than plunging blindly forward without heed of the consequences. That's NOT what we're doing. I am not against genetic engineering - I am against genetic engineering in the hands of the current players, who have a VERY bad record at such things, with virtually nothing to redeem it. Genetic engineering in itself is a most promising technology. My fear is not only that great damage will be caused by the current highly irresponsible initiatives but that the future of the technology might thus be ruined. My fears are being amply realised day by day, I'm very sorry to say. A large portion of the world sees it just the same way. These are not over-emotional fears based on scare-mongering, as some try to paint them, they're very often well-informed views, despite much corporate spin which attempts to confuse the issue, often successfully. Many of the nay-sayers are themselves scientists, many of whom have changed sides from pro to con. More and more scientists are doing that. Genetic engineering has been going on since that monk, whats-his-name, was messing around with peas in his garden, even before that. That is not true. His name was Mendel. Plant breeding is quite different to genetic engineering. The two have almost nothing in common. Read the definition Ed just posted. Neither Mendel, nor the hundreds of generations of careful farmer breeders before him and since who have given us our range of food crops - all very different from their wild originals - have not practised genetic engineering. We have been cross-breeding, hybridizing, and culling herds and crops for desirable traits since before recorded history. Its just that now we've advanced to the stage that we can do it with tremendous efficiency at the direct genetic level. You're quite wrong, on both counts. For the first, see above. For the second, there's very little efficiency involved. Check out your facts first. It's not an efficient process, it's highly random. Claims that the results are known and reliable have in all cases so far proven wrong. The effects - the GMO crops themselves - have not performed as claimed, and have behaved as it was promised they would not. Not efficient, bad science, bad technology. Monitor the progress, give those who are concerned a public forum, and let normal human progress take its course. This is not normal human progress, this is corporate irresponsibility. As a student of western civilization, I can tell you that, historically, cultures that turn their backs, or try to stop social, or scientific progress, marginalize themselves, ceding the forefront to other cultures that are willing to embrace the future. Stopping scientific progress is one thing, giving an unrestricted green light to unproven technology that is at best half-baked quite another. I am not flaming anyone here, I respect the cynic and the critic, we need you to balance the science-as-a-god crowd on the other end of the spectrum. But, please, accept the possibility that your opinions are just that; opinions. It is possible for someone equally well informed to disagree with you without being evil. These are not opinions. If you want solid references I'll give them to you. I wonder, though, if you can do the same. From my view of the subject, I doubt it. I'm sorry this got so, long, I just didn't want to see another tangential flame war fire up. I hope I haven't caused one. We can have a discussion, we can have an argument, we can even get heated about it, no problem, it only becomes a flame war when it goes beyond that into a personal slanging match, which I trust won't happen. Oh, we're talking to the local economic development people about building a BD plant right here, using WVO as feedstock. Good for you! Best wishes Keith Chuck R. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de
Re: [biofuels-biz] Genetic Engineering
Hallo Thor Skov, I think I know a plant that is nearly in the way you whish: It is Jatropha curcas, a shrub, with little demand of water and good soil, which grows in tropical and subtropical countries. It does not stand frost. This shrub (a botanical relative of the castor plant) produces seeds, that contain more than 30 % of a non edible oil. Theproduction rate is about 1.500 litres of oil per ha. This oil, after extraction and sedimentation, can be used directly as a substitute of diesel in precombustion chamber diesel engines (like Mercedes personel cars). More information on the Jatropha website: www.jatropha.org Best regards Reinhard Henning Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I agree that it would be marvelous to grow a plant that could produce a diesel-ready fuel that could be had without processing beyond extraction. But, there is no such thing as running away from the future, since at any given time there are an infinite number of possible futures. Historically, adaptation of technologies, especially in the choice of competing technologies, has been strongly influenced by the relative power of the beneficiaries of those technologies. And genetic engineering, as the term is currently used, has NOT been going since Mendel's time. Genetic engineering can mix the genes of organisms from different classes, phyla, even kingdoms, and breaks all the natural boundaries and checks and balances of cross-breeding closely related species. Furthermore, it is myth that genetic engineering is marvelously efficient. On the contrary, it takes thousands of attempts to get the desired expression of the desired traits without undesireable (and immediately apparent) characteristics (the not immediately apparent characteristics can stay long hidden). That is why it is so expensive. It's the same type of argument that people make when they say that mechanized, input-intensive monoculture farming is more efficient than biointensive multi-cropping on a small scale. This is NOT a flame. Simply an attempt to clear up a common misconception. Regards, Thor Skov --- Chuck Ranum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Strictly from the standpoint of efficiency, growing a plant that produced an acceptable yield of fuel for diesel engines without processing any further than extraction and filtering is nearly ideal. We do need people hanging around with a healthy dose of skepticism, but running away from the future because some aspects of that future appear to carry risks is worse than plunging blindly forward without heed of the consequences. Genetic engineering has been going on since that monk, whats-his-name, was messing around with peas in his garden, even before that. We have been cross-breeding, hybridizing, and culling herds and crops for desirable traits since before recorded history. Its just that now we've advanced to the stage that we can do it with tremendous efficiency at the direct genetic level. Monitor the progress, give those who are concerned a public forum, and let normal human progress take its course. As a student of western civilization, I can tell you that, historically, cultures that turn their backs, or try to stop social, or scientific progress, marginalize themselves, ceding the forefront to other cultures that are willing to embrace the future. I am not flaming anyone here, I respect the cynic and the critic, we need you to balance the science-as-a-god crowd on the other end of the spectrum. But, please, accept the possibility that your opinions are just that; opinions. It is possible for someone equally well informed to disagree with you without being evil. I'm sorry this got so, long, I just didn't want to see another tangential flame war fire up. I hope I haven't caused one. Oh, we're talking to the local economic development people about building a BD plant right here, using WVO as feedstock. Chuck R. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now!
Re: [biofuels-biz] Genetic Engineering
Hallo Thor Skov, I think I know a plant that is nearly in the way you whish: Snip This oil, after extraction and sedimentation, can be used directly as a substitute of diesel in precombustion chamber diesel engines (like Mercedes personel cars). HUGE SNIP Most Modern Diesels do not have a precombustion chamber. The TDI Diesels have a small well in the pistion, but its not anything like a precombustion chamber. Can this oil be used in modern Diesels? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Genetic Engineering
So far, this is what we've had from GMOs, as far as biofuels are concerned: http://www.safe2use.com/ca-ipm/01-02-05-study.htm GM Bacteria could destroy all life on earth - Report Klebsiella planticola--The Gene-Altered Monster That Almost Got Away The Deadly Genetically Engineered Bacteria that Almost Got Away: A Cautionary Talle Web Note: In the early 1990s a European genetic engineering company was preparing to field test and then commercialize on a major scale a genetically engineered soil bacteria called Klebsiella planticola. The bacteria had been tested--as it turns out in a careless and very unscientific mannner--by scientists working for the biotech industry and was believed to be safe for the environment. Fortunately a team of independent scientists, headed by Dr. Elaine Ingham of Oregon State University, decided to run their own tests on the gene-altered Klebsiella planticola. What they discovered was not only startling, but terrifying-- the biotech industry had created a biological monster--a genetically engineered microorganism that would kill all terrestrial plants. After Ingham's expose, of course the gene-altered Klebsiella planticola was never commercialized. But as Ingham points out, the lack of pre-market safety testing of other genetically altered organisms virtually guarantees that future biological monsters will be released into the environment. Moreover it's not only genetic engineering that poses a mortal threat to our soil ecology, the soil food web, as Ingham calls it. Chemical-intensive agriculture is slowly but surely poisoning our soil and our drinking water as well. The purpose of the thing was to convert cellulose plant residue to alcohol. Unfortunately it converted living plants to alcohol as well. This is a good example - there's certainly a need for better cellulose-to-alcohol technology, and biotech should be able to provide excellent solutions. But instead we get this really bad science - sloppy, careless, arrogant, and VERY STUPID. Regarding what I said about corporate spin, have a look at this to see what happened to Dr Ingham: http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/gm/gm.jsp?id=22801100 New Scientist | GM Foods | The accused The accused - Is the biotech industry trying to silence one of its outspoken critics? SUPPORTERS of the biotech industry have accused an American scientist of misconduct after she testified to the New Zealand government that a genetically modified bacterium could wreak havoc if released... They're trying to cause trouble with my university and get me fired, Ingham told New Scientist. [more] The New Scientist is not sensationalist and Ingham's not being paranoid - remember what happened to Arpad Pusztai. Also: http://ngin.tripod.com/deceit_index.html SEEDS OF DISSENT: Anti-GM scientists are facing widespread assaults on their credibility - who is behind the attacks? http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4412987,00.html From the Guardian . The fake persuaders Corporations are inventing people to rubbish their opponents on the internet http://www.guardian.co.uk/gmdebate/Story/0,2763,723926,00.html Guardian Unlimited Corporate Phantoms - The Web of Deceit Over GM Food We should trustingly put the future of our food supplies and our environment into the hands of these scumbags? And if we have our doubts then we're Luddites, standing in the way of science? LOL! Somebody who's currently eating humble pie over just this issue is one Tony Blair, and quite right too. It's most delightful to see all the spin and lies blowing up in their faces. There are still a few honest journalists around. http://www.guardian.co.uk/gmdebate/Story/0,2763,726540,00.html Guardian Unlimited Green lobby forces Blair into rethink over GM So, amid all this excrement, when are we likely to get a real GMO to convert cellulose for us, without killing everything? Fat chance of any real science emerging from this disgusting mess. Best Keith Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Genetic Engineering
Thank you, Keith, for your very ood arguments Regards Reinhard Henning Thankyou, Reinhard - Thor's was better though, IMHO. regards Keith Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hello Chuck Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Genetic Engineering
Hello Reinhard, Thor and all Jatropha's great, but it's not the only one. I guess which is best depends on the circumstances (as with all things!). Here are some more: Copaifera langsdorfii Desf. Caesalpiniaceae Diesel tree That the oleoresin called copaiba could be obtained by incising the trunk was first reported in England in 1625, in a work published by Purchas, ...a single tree is said to yield about 40 litres. (Grieve, 1931, reprinted 1974). Quoting nobel-laureate Calvin, Maugh says (1979), Natives ... drill a 5 centimeter hole into the 1-meter thick trunk and put a bung into it. Every 6 months or so, they remove the bung and collect 15 to 20 liters of the hydrocarbon. Since there are few Rabbit diesels in the jungle, the natives use the hydrocarbon as an emollient and for other nonenergy-related purposes. But tests have shown, he says, that the liquid can be placed directly in the fuel tank of a diesel-powered car. (Maugh, 1976). The copal is used in lacquers, massage preparations, medicines, and paints. Wood and resin can be used for fuel. The wood is used in carpentry (Burkart, 1943). [More...] http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Copaifera_langsdorfii.html Honge oil Pongamia Pinnata http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/discovery/honge.html Pongamia pinnata http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Pongamia_pinnata.html Pittosporum resiniferum Pittosporaceae Petroleum nut (English) Hanga (Philippine) Called petroleum nut because of the fancied resemblance of the odor of the fruit's oil to that of petroleum, the fruits, even green ones, burn brilliantly when ignited. Hence they are used like torch nuts or candlenuts for illumination in the bush. Dihydroterpene (C10H18) is used in perfumes and medicines. Heptane (C7H16) is a component of gasoline, and has been suggested as a possible component of paint and varnish (Anonymous, 1981c). [More...] http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Pittosporum_resiniferum.html Etc etc etc Regards Keith Hallo Thor Skov, I think I know a plant that is nearly in the way you whish: It is Jatropha curcas, a shrub, with little demand of water and good soil, which grows in tropical and subtropical countries. It does not stand frost. This shrub (a botanical relative of the castor plant) produces seeds, that contain more than 30 % of a non edible oil. Theproduction rate is about 1.500 litres of oil per ha. This oil, after extraction and sedimentation, can be used directly as a substitute of diesel in precombustion chamber diesel engines (like Mercedes personel cars). More information on the Jatropha website: www.jatropha.org Best regards Reinhard Henning Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I agree that it would be marvelous to grow a plant that could produce a diesel-ready fuel that could be had without processing beyond extraction. But, there is no such thing as running away from the future, since at any given time there are an infinite number of possible futures. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Definition of diesel
Have you tried the sections of the CFR that deal with Department of Energy or Department of Transportation? timothyennuinet [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/05/2002 11:41 PM Please respond to biofuels-biz To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:[biofuels-biz] Definition of diesel It seems that yellowdiesel has had a smack down from the EPA (as many of us know) for the 'unlisenced' production of fuel. I looked at yd's asite, then went to the EPA site and got out the relevant text of CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) that refer to diesel fuel. Here are two pieces that were of interest to myself: 40 CFR 80.1(x) Diesel fuel means any fuel sold in any state or Territory of the United States and suitable for use in diesel motor vehicles, diesel motor vehicle engines or diesel nonroad engines, and which is commonly or commercially known or sold as diesel fuel. (y) Motor vehicle diesel fuel means diesel fuel, or any distillate product, that is used, intended for use, or made available for use, as a fuel in diesel motor vehicles or diesel motor vehicle engines. There is also a requirements piece that refers to sulfur ppm, cetane number, aromatic content and dye content. All standard tests, and which do not cost a million bucks to do. So, I'm confused. Either the EPA is flexing its muscles in territory in which it has no business doing so (I could find ZERO mention of the phrase 'biodiesel' in the CFR database), or, failing that, if the definitions and requirements which apply to petro diesel were also to be applied to bio diesel, then it would be easy to meet those requirements, in which case they would also be unlawfully flexing their enforcement powers, and in fact would be lieing. Now.. is there another section of the CFR that specifically deals with biodiesel? 'Alternative fuel' (Couldn't find a doc stating that either)? Which section did they cite? I'd personally like to know, and to reference them myself, to see if they even have a leg to stand on. See, if it isn't in the CFR, they can't do it, nor can they demand it. Unless I'm missing something here. Please let me know if I am off base, or am on target. --T Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Definition of diesel
Here is a summary nof the situation with the EPA as prepared by Dr. Shine Tyson of the national renewable Energy lab, and editied by me. Tom Leue I finally reached Joe Sopata at EPA and we discussed the registration issue. It appears that you were correct that because biodiesel isn't a petroleum fuel, the exemption doesn't apply. But that may not be entirely true. Read through what I've written below. Some of this you already know but I wrote it out so I could understand it too. I'm not a lawyer so if you plan to pursue the angles I've identified below, please consult legal assistance! According to Joe, all fuels and fuel additives need to go through the basic registration process (40CFR79.1). Only fuels that are designated a motor fuel for on-road use need to go through Tier I II (40CFR79.3) . If you strictly sell your fuel to off-road users (e.g., dyed; off-road including: heating oil, power generators, farm equip, construction equip, marine vessels, barges, boats, irrigation pumps, etc.) Tier I II won't apply because the fuel is not designated. You still need to register and meet all information requests by EPA. Given the interest in biodiesel for heating oil blends in New England, off-road sales could be a realistic avenue for avoiding Tier I II Health Effects requirements. Double check this with the EPA before proceeding!! For on-road fuels, Joe went on to say the small business exemptions depend on which family/category the fuel/additive fall into. If the product (e.g., fuel with additives) was considered baseline or non-baseline, then the manufacturer (interpreted in the broadest sense) with total annual sales of less than $50 mil were not required to meet Tier I or Tier II although the EPA could demand a full registration with literature review (40CFR79.58(d)2). If the product was considered atypical, then manufacturers with total annual sales of less than $10 mil were not required to meet Tier II (Tier I still applied) (40CFR79.58(d)3). Joe seemed to think that if a blend (B5, B10, B15, B20) could meet the definitions of either the baseline or nonbaseline, a small business would be exempt from both Tier I and II, and if the fuel was considered atypical, only exempt from Tier II (note the different sales standards above). This is where things get tricky. According to 40CFR79.56(e)1(ii), The Diesel Family includes fuels composed of more than 50% diesel fuel (including formulations of No. 1 and No. 2) by volume and their associated fuel additives. The base fuel for this family is specified in 40CFR79.55(c), Diesel Base Fuel is defined (40CFR79.55(c)). Diesel Base Fuel shall be a #2 diesel having the defined fuel properties (which appear to reflect ASTM D 975 although ASTM is not mentioned) with variations in fuel properties specifically limited. It also lists permissible additive types which include corrosion inhibitors, demulsifiers, anti-oxidants, metal deactivators, anti-static, and flow improvers. Lubricity is not listed as a permissible additive and deposit control are specifically excluded. Additives shall be limited to compounds that contain only carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur and no other elements. There are three diesel categories in the Diesel Family: Baseline Diesel, Non-Baseline Diesel, and Atypical [diesel]. Baseline Diesel is comprised on diesel fuels and associated additives which satisfy ALL of the following criteria: shall contain no elements other than carbon, hydrogen, oxygen (1%), nitrogen and sulfur (no more than the legal limit for highway diesel). Baseline Diesel must possess the characteristics of ASTM D 975-93. Baseline Diesel must be derived from conventional petroleum sources only. (40CFR79.56(e)3(ii)A) NonBaseline Diesel must meet all the criteria of baseline diesel except: oxygen can be 1% or higher (no specified limit) and it can include diesel fuel and additives which may be derived from synthetic crudes, such as those prepared from coal, shale, tar sands, heavy oil deposits, and other non-conventional petroleum sources. (40CFR70.56(e)3(ii)B). Atypical Diesel comprises diesel and additives which contain one or more elements other than carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur. (40CFR79.56(e)3(ii)C) No mention of source. If I read the options above correctly, then I don't think that biodiesel (either as a fuel or an additive) meets Baseline or Non-Baseline because its made from non-petroleum sources. So even if a blend of biodiesel and diesel fuels could meet ASTM D 975, it doesn't meet the petroleum (et al) source requirements. Therefore, the small business exclusion for baseline and non-baseline diesel does not apply to either biodiesel or fuels that contain small amounts of biodiesel. If you claimed that trace amounts of Na, K, or P are present in biodiesel (which they typically do), then biodiesel could be considered
Re: [biofuels-biz] Genetic Engineering
The oil can be used in modern Diesels also. You have to do some modificaton. I put some addresses of persons and firms in the internet, who do such modifications in Germany. http://www.jatropha.org/p-o-engines/conversion-cars.htm Best regards Reinhard Henning Eric Ruttan [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Hallo Thor Skov, I think I know a plant that is nearly in the way you whish: Snip This oil, after extraction and sedimentation, can be used directly as a substitute of diesel in precombustion chamber diesel engines (like Mercedes personel cars). HUGE SNIP Most Modern Diesels do not have a precombustion chamber. The TDI Diesels have a small well in the pistion, but its not anything like a precombustion chamber. Can this oil be used in modern Diesels? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Organic Farming and Ethanol Energy Ratios
See: http://eatwild.com/index.html Eat Wild The Clearinghouse for Information about Pasture-Based Farming ok thx. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/nCP_wD/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] ignition retarding
SunflowerI am new to this list and am about to do my first series of test batches of fuel. I was going to do a few 10ltr batches to check the titration results etc. Now for my Question. What is the issue if the ignition is not retarded 2-3 deg? As I live in Australia and cover many outback Klms where fuel production would not be possible (Thankfully I have 265ltrs on board capacity) I would need to keep the car suitable to run on dinodiesel. Your help gratefully accepted. Neil Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] The Reality Principle: The consequences of oil shortages
http://www.theecologist.co.uk/archive_article.html?article=263category=47 The Ecologist - ARCHIVE The Reality Principle: The consequences of oil shortages Date Published: 22/10/2001 Author: David Fleming In the heat of the coming oil shock Green ideals will be forged into hard economic truths, as energy crisis devastates the global market. It's a pity no one in authority listened. The case was made, not least in these pages, for reshaping the market economy intelligently, before the ecosystem took its brutal revenge. Arguments were made for the speedy development of renewable energy, organic agriculture, competent local economies, closed systems and effective means of restraining predatory multinational business. Solutions were invented and refined. But the opportunity has now passed. The turning-point at which the initiative shifts from the market economy to the ecosystem will be the moment when the world experiences a peak, followed by a downturn, in the supply of oil. This will occur when the five large OPEC producers in the Middle East - Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the UAE - are no longer able and willing to pump their oil fast enough to meet the growth in world demand. All the other oil suppliers throughout the world (including the UK's North Sea) are in decline, or too small for any remaining growth in their output to make a difference; global growth in oil supply now depends entirely on the 'Middle East Five', and when they can no longer meet demand, there will be an oil shock. The speed at which it arrives could be startling. This will mark the beginning of the end of the oil-based market economy, and it is for this moment that we should by now have prepared an infrastructure of renewables, backed by conservation systems to reduce energy demand to less than one third of what we use at present. However, this infrastructure takes a minimum of 25 years to build, and since it has been barely started, the oil famine which can be expected to develop in the next ten years will be catastrophic. The consequences in the short term cannot be predicted in detail because, when systems break down, they do so chaotically. But some leading symptoms can be foreseen. There will be incremental economic damage, affecting Third World countries first of all, before becoming more general. This is because the multinational institutions have taken pains to make 'developing' economies dependent on oil, and so when the price of oil rises beyond their means, their economies will start to disintegrate. Agriculture will be disabled by disruptions in the supply of oil for fertiliser, machinery, irrigation pumps and transport. Tourism will be paralysed by high fuel costs and by a collapse in consumers' income. Political unrest will develop as economic institutions and distribution systems for food and fuel show the strain and begin to break down. It is now too late to prevent this from happening. Moreover, it is likely that governments, international organisations and transnational corporations will refuse to recognise that there is a problem until they are actually buried in it. Even then, they will insist that more oil exploration or more faith in free market forces will solve it. They will claim that a few wicked hooligans or 'extremists' are stirring up public unrest. Then they will panic. But what about the critics who have been warning about this for so long? What should they do? Endgames demand new tactics. During this period of transition, it will be necessary to shift the grounds of the ecology-argument decisively forward from ethics to practice. Let me explain. Ethical arguments are relevant in cases where a course of action is possible but undesirable and avoidable. It is possible to produce large quantities of cash crops by means of heavy applications of fertiliser and pesticide, by expropriating subsistence farmers and depleting the soil and drawing on irreplaceable reserves of groundwater - but, of course, there are environmental-humanitarian-ethical arguments against it. In the future, by contrast, such a policy will no longer be possible: there will not be the energy to produce the fertiliser, to drive the machines, the irrigation and the transport, nor the rich-country incomes to buy the product. There is no doubt that such industrial agriculture is bad, but we will be wasting our time pointing that out. If it is impossible, the ethical argument becomes scarcely relevant. With oil famine, ethical options become the only way forward. Industrial agriculture? Fantasy. The only option for the future is low-energy organic cultivation, bringing redundant farmers and abandoned fields back into production. Globalisation? This is no more than a short-lived side effect of cheap oil. In the future, local development is the only practical solution. Nuclear energy? Moonshine. To fill the energy gap left by oil and - shortly - by gas, would
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 06:27:31PM +1000, Neil and Adele Craven wrote: Now for my Question. What is the issue if the ignition is not retarded 2-3 deg? As I live in Australia and cover many outback Klms where fuel production would not be possible (Thankfully I have 265ltrs on board capacity) I would need to keep the car suitable to run on dinodiesel. Why would you want to retard the ignition? This is the first I've ever heard of anyone doing this with biodiesel. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The Reality Principle
This does not mean that ethical judgement will become obsolete, but that ethics and practice will converge. The task of building an energy-efficient localised economy at least 25 years too late may well be futile - but there is one good outcome. This time, having explored all alternatives, human society will be forced to do the right thing. It's always nice to wake up to a naively optimistic email message, but let's get REAL here -- humans can ALWAYS find a way to do the WRONG thing, especially if they feel FORCED! :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks http://www.nationalcenter.org/TSR60502.html DATE: June 5, 2002 BACKGROUND: The Wall Street Journal (1) reported recently that long-haul truck sales have skyrocketed primarily as trucking firms buy new rigs before new anti-pollution rules for diesel engines take effect October 1, 2002. The added cost of the new less polluting engines is estimated to be between $3000 and $5000. In addition, the engines are reported to be less fuel efficient, more costly to maintain and possibly more prone to breakdowns while in use. TEN SECOND RESPONSE: Here's another example of how over-reaching regulation can backfire and have just the opposite effect it intended. THIRTY SECOND RESPONSE: By trying to impose mandatory changes in diesel engines as of October, EPA pushed the trucking industry to buy trucks before the new rule goes into effect, thus thwarting its intentions. These trucks will stay on the roads for several years before being replaced. Whereas if the market were allowed to work unfettered, consumer demand for cleaner diesel engines would have accomplished the same thing. DISCUSSION: Manufacturers of the diesel engines have reportedly told EPA that they may not be able to produce reliable new engines as required as of October 1, 2002. However, EPA has not yet granted an extension of the timetable and is recommending fines of up to $15,000 per engine sold after Oct. 1 that don't meet the new standard. The new standard set in 1998 would reduce the nitrogen oxide (NOX) emissions from diesel engines by about one-third by 2008, according to EPA. NOX emissions are thought to be one of the major contributors to smog. by Gretchen Randall, Director John P. McGovern, MD Center for Environmental and Regulatory Affairs The National Center for Public Policy Research Contact the author at: 773-857-5086 or [EMAIL PROTECTED] The National Center for Public Policy Research, Chicago office 3712 North Broadway - PMB 279 Chicago, IL 60613 Footnote: 1 Truck Firms Go on Buying Binge to Circumvent a New EPA Rule, Jeffrey Ball, The Wall Street Journal, May 28, 2002, downloaded from http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1022539501352661400-search,00.html?collection=wsjie/30dayvql-string=%28truck+firms+go+on+buying+binge%29%3Cin%3E%28article%2Dbody%29, subscription required. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 11:25:31AM -0500, Tee wrote: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks http://www.nationalcenter.org/TSR60502.html DATE: June 5, 2002 BACKGROUND: The Wall Street Journal (1) reported recently that long-haul truck sales have skyrocketed primarily as trucking firms buy new rigs before new anti-pollution rules for diesel engines take effect October 1, 2002. The added cost of the new less polluting engines is estimated to be between $3000 and $5000. In addition, the engines are reported to be less fuel efficient, more costly to maintain and possibly more prone to breakdowns while in use. TEN SECOND RESPONSE: Here's another example of how over-reaching regulation can backfire and have just the opposite effect it intended. Yah, well, we need to look at this in context -- such as the EPA's attempt to stonewall superclean fuel producers like the biodiesel producer they shut down for no real reason. THIRTY SECOND RESPONSE: By trying to impose mandatory changes in diesel engines as of October, EPA pushed the trucking industry to buy trucks before the new rule goes into effect, thus thwarting its intentions. These trucks will stay on the roads for several years before being replaced. Whereas if the market were allowed to work unfettered, consumer demand for cleaner diesel engines would have accomplished the same thing. No, it certainly would not. Where have you been? Are you aware that most automakers (foreign, that is) who sell really neat hi-tech diesel engines refuse to import them to North America because of our very crappy diesel fuel? DISCUSSION: Manufacturers of the diesel engines have reportedly told EPA that they may not be able to produce reliable new engines as required as of October 1, 2002. However, EPA has not yet granted an extension of the timetable and is recommending fines of up to $15,000 per engine sold after Oct. 1 that don't meet the new standard. The new standard set in 1998 would reduce the nitrogen oxide (NOX) emissions from diesel engines by about one-third by 2008, according to EPA. NOX emissions are thought to be one of the major contributors to smog. Gawd, what planet are you from? Manufacturers of the diesel engines like Mercedes, BMW, Peugot, VW, etc. already produce far better engines than the EPA is asking for -- whats wrong with Cummins, Detroit, Catepillar? Oh, sorry, I forgot, they're all in brain dead Amerika. As are you. Get a clue! -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Equipment Information
I am knew in thsi list. I would like to produce sunflower oil and I don't know what kind of equipment i should use. Could you help me? And, do you usually burn it with glicerin or take it out? What about motor problems after 200 hours for waste acumulation inside motor? regards, Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Equipment Information
I am knew in thsi list. I would like to produce sunflower oil and I don't know what kind of equipment i should use. Could you help me? And, do you usually burn it with glicerin or take it out? What about motor problems after 200 hours for waste acumulation inside motor? regards, Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Questions concerning the conversion of car engines to run with plant oil you will find under http://www.jatropha.org/p-o-engines/conversion-cars.htm To extract sunflower oil you can use manual presses or mechanical expellers. Examples of both you find at: http://www.jatropha.org/expellers/index.html and http://www.jatropha.org/extract.htm and http://www.jatropha.org/rampresses/biel-ram.htm Best regards Reinhard Henning marcohgcardoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I am knew in thsi list. I would like to produce sunflower oil and I don't know what kind of equipment i should use. Could you help me? And, do you usually burn it with glicerin or take it out? What about motor problems after 200 hours for waste acumulation inside motor? regards, Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
H, been far longer than the ten second responce -- or the 30 minute. So, cat got your tongue? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
How much seed do you want to press per hour? Where are you located? Regards, Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/6/02 10:08 AM, marcohgcardoso at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am knew in thsi list. I would like to produce sunflower oil and I don't know what kind of equipment i should use. Could you help me? And, do you usually burn it with glicerin or take it out? What about motor problems after 200 hours for waste acumulation inside motor? regards, Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The Reality Principle
This does not mean that ethical judgement will become obsolete, but that ethics and practice will converge. The task of building an energy-efficient localised economy at least 25 years too late may well be futile - but there is one good outcome. This time, having explored all alternatives, human society will be forced to do the right thing. It's always nice to wake up to a naively optimistic email message, but let's get REAL here -- humans can ALWAYS find a way to do the WRONG thing, especially if they feel FORCED! :-) A very industrialised post-modern view, Ken - ie, naively pessimistic. :-) Your REAL hasn't applied to most humans who've lived, and still doesn't to most now alive, who're neither industrialised nor post-modern, for the most part. Maybe they'll succeed in skipping this little blip in history altogether, eh? Along with its pessimisms. Though not, indeed, many of its side-effects, as the article says, whether it paints the right scenario or not, even if maybe not quite the side-effects he predicts. I don't think he figures in nearly enough of the factors at play, but he could be right, could be wrong. Right about some things. Regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
I am knew in thsi list. I would like to produce sunflower oil and I don't know what kind of equipment i should use. Could you help me? And, do you usually burn it with glicerin or take it out? What about motor problems after 200 hours for waste acumulation inside motor? regards, See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html#Oilpress Biofuels supplies and suppliers: Oilseed presses regards Keith Addison Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
No I don't waste my time. Give your ego a rest. Your not that impressive. At 01:25 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: H, been far longer than the ten second responce -- or the 30 minute. So, cat got your tongue? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The Reality Principle
Keith writes: A very industrialised post-modern view, Ken - ie, naively pessimistic. :-) Your REAL hasn't applied to most humans who've lived, and still doesn't to most now alive, who're neither industrialised nor post-modern, for the most part. Maybe they'll succeed in skipping this little blip in history altogether, eh? Along with its pessimisms. If by people who're neither industrialised nor post-modern you're thinking of the Yanomamo, you MAY be right, but I think it's just the absence of a written history that allows us to romanticize them and attribute great ethical standards to them. The Native Americans, commonly praised for their ecological sensitivity, could also be very brutal, and were probably spared from decimating their environment only by their low and sparse populations. And if you mean anyone more modern, like say, in developing African nations, or in central or southern Asia, well. enough said. Mind you, I'm not saying people are all wretched, just that they've never had a reputation for choosing the reasonable, prudent, or RIGHT course, and I wouldn't expect them to start now. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 04:58:35PM -0500, Tee wrote: Sad what this list has come too. Name calling and put downs the tools of small minded people. Who was it started name calling and putdowns? Ego, etc., eh? And what, exactly, is the name calling you're upset about? The article is being reported by many sources and if you feel it needs to be debunked. Then by all means have at it. Gee, I thought that's exactely what I did -- where's your answer? So far all we've seen from you in response is ad hominem attacks -- c'mon address the issue! How long have you been working for the gov't? Geez, we don't have all day here -- even you burrowcrats can answer a straight question, eh? So why is it we don't have clean diesels in the US when they are available all over the rest of the world? Sorry dearie, but you just happened to hit a real pet peeve of mine, seriously -- I'm extremely pissed off by the fact that I can't buy any of those nice, clean, hi-tech diesel engines that VW and Mercedes are selling everywhere else. And why is that? Because scumbag politicians and scumbag propagandist like yourself are lying to the Amerikan public, isn't that right? Let's answer the questions, okay? Why is it that Cummins can't build an engine as good as VW or Mercedes? Is it simply that the scumbag criminals in the gov't haven't paid them enough welfare money? And the wefare suckers in the trucking industry -- didn't they get enough payoffs yet? How about you -- how much do they pay you to delude the public? At 03:02 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:59:52PM -0500, Tee wrote: No I don't waste my time. Give your ego a rest. Your not that impressive. Oh, 'tis not my ego that's the problem here, dearest. But simply that we're all waiting with bated breath to hear the answer. Official propagandists for the USA or (who is it you work for again, deary?) should be able to answer questions, don't you think? C'mon now, you *do* have something better than I don't waste my time or give yur ego a rest, eh? A real answer? At 01:25 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: H, been far longer than the ten second responce -- or the 30 minute. So, cat got your tongue? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] wise use?
Anybody every investigate these people? Is this one of the Wise Use groups? Gretchen Randall, Director John P. McGovern, MD Center for Environmental and Regulatory Affairs The National Center for Public Policy Research Contact the author at: 773-857-5086 or [EMAIL PROTECTED] The National Center for Public Policy Research, Chicago office 3712 North Broadway - PMB 279 Chicago, IL 60613 -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 08:07:32AM +1000, Neil and Adele Craven wrote: my mistake injection timing, which on a Diesel is similar to the ignition timing on a petrol. Neil yes, right - still the same question -- why would you want to do this? Why would you want to retard the ignition? This is the first I've ever heard of anyone doing this with biodiesel. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Sad what this list has come too. Name calling and put downs the tools of small minded people. The article is being reported by many sources and if you feel it needs to be debunked. Then by all means have at it. At 03:02 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:59:52PM -0500, Tee wrote: No I don't waste my time. Give your ego a rest. Your not that impressive. Oh, 'tis not my ego that's the problem here, dearest. But simply that we're all waiting with bated breath to hear the answer. Official propagandists for the USA or (who is it you work for again, deary?) should be able to answer questions, don't you think? C'mon now, you *do* have something better than I don't waste my time or give yur ego a rest, eh? A real answer? At 01:25 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: H, been far longer than the ten second responce -- or the 30 minute. So, cat got your tongue? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 08:30:59AM +1000, Neil and Adele Craven wrote: Also, retard the injection timing by 2-3 degrees -- this overcomes the effect of biodiesel's higher cetane number. The engine loses a little of the extra power you get with biodiesel, but it runs quieter and the fuel burns cooler, reducing NOx emissions. (See also NOx emissions and biodiesel.) I think you don't understand what octance (cetane) ratings are all about. If anything, with a higher octane (or cetane, as the case may be) you would benefit from *advancing* the timing, not retarding it. At any rate, where did you get this idea of changing the timing for biodiesel anyway? There's absolutely no basis for it that I'm aware of, in any of the documentation. Neil - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 08:07:32AM +1000, Neil and Adele Craven wrote: my mistake injection timing, which on a Diesel is similar to the ignition timing on a petrol. Neil yes, right - still the same question -- why would you want to do this? Why would you want to retard the ignition? This is the first I've ever heard of anyone doing this with biodiesel. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
my mistake injection timing, which on a Diesel is similar to the ignition timing on a petrol. Neil Why would you want to retard the ignition? This is the first I've ever heard of anyone doing this with biodiesel. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The Reality Principle
Ken writes: Keith writes: A very industrialised post-modern view, Ken - ie, naively pessimistic. :-) Your REAL hasn't applied to most humans who've lived, and still doesn't to most now alive, who're neither industrialised nor post-modern, for the most part. Maybe they'll succeed in skipping this little blip in history altogether, eh? Along with its pessimisms. If by people who're neither industrialised nor post-modern you're thinking of the Yanomamo, you MAY be right, but I think it's just the absence of a written history that allows us to romanticize them and attribute great ethical standards to them. The Native Americans, commonly praised for their ecological sensitivity, could also be very brutal, and were probably spared from decimating their environment only by their low and sparse populations. No, I didn't particularly mean any of those. I'm not attributing great ethical standards to anyone really, I wasn't saying the opposite of what you said, just disagreeing with what you said, different thing. By the way, it's pretty well established now that an oral history can be much more accurate and reliable than a written one. And it seems those populations weren't low and sparse, according to this, and other stuff I've encountered, though I don't know very much about it: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/03/mann.htm 1491 And if you mean anyone more modern, like say, in developing African nations, or in central or southern Asia, well. enough said. No, not at all enough said. Who of those people do you have a view of? Their urban elites? Or via their urban elites? Just a twisted mirror, obscuring the reality you want us to get real about. But no, not only them. No use trying to narrow it down, you have to broaden it out. Take away the cities and what's left? Most people. And indeed, many people in the cities too. Mind you, I'm not saying people are all wretched, just that they've never had a reputation for choosing the reasonable, prudent, or RIGHT course, and I wouldn't expect them to start now. Clearly you don't. I disagree, only I wouldn't see it as starting. But then you belong to an industrialised society, and I don't. History is perhaps largely a series of interruptions, maybe not very relevant. Traditional societies continued nonetheless as they may, as they still do, and will do. Have you eaten a cabbage recently? Or broccoli, cauliflower, brussels spouts, kohlrabi? All developed from the same wild original, not very appetising. Eaten bread? Potatoes? Beans? An apple? Beef? The fact that you weren't left with a poor choice of their original ancestors, if you could even find them, is due to patient work by entire societies through scores or hundreds of generations. Keeping the best seed each year is an incredibly far-sighted thing to do. What kind of food would you be eating today if humans habitually chose the unreasonable, imprudent, wrong course? If pessimism were wise? Would you even be here at all? The fact that we inherited a viable environment for Industrial Man to ruin, or try to, is due to the same thing, no accident, not by default. Sure, there were failures - see Lowdermilk, for instance: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Lowd/Lowd1.html Famous book - but Lowdermilk was primed to see failure, he went looking for it. F.H. King wasn't so primed: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010122king/ffc.html And neither am I. Progress, eh? Very relative thing. MM said this here the other day: I'm thankful to live in a civilization making its growing pain efforts to become modern, and that to some extent food in general is dramatically easier for me to work for and acquire than for some of my ancestors. In fact, as with all of us, he spends more time earning money to pay for his food than a hunter-gatherer spends hunting and gathering it, and guess who has the healthier diet? The healthier life? If you think pre-industrial traditional people died at an early age riddled with disease, well, sorry, that's wrong too: http://journeytoforever.org/text_price.html The Darwin of nutrition - Weston A. Price I think what you say might apply to industrialised society, parts of it, maybe, not the rule at all. And what exactly does that amount to? Extraction, brief utilisation, and waste, plus widespread damage and destruction. As against which you'll set what? Do without it? Sure, any time - me and most people. And you? But, to get back to the original post, there's no need - it's perfectly possible to have it both ways, the two things can easily co-exist, quite sustainably, and indeed thrive together. As indeed they will have to. And will do. But it's the cities that will have to do the changing. Isn't that why we're all making biodiesel? Regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On the lighter side of the issue though: Once, by mistake, I placed a statement (below) on this site (while trying to send it to a friend of mine privately): It said, you know, Tom, this site is crowed with urchins, so, don't worry. Now, I feel was not wrong after all!! :). Now, again, this on the lighter side of life please :) - It means 'smile'. - Original Message - From: Tee To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks Sad what this list has come too. Name calling and put downs the tools of small minded people. The article is being reported by many sources and if you feel it needs to be debunked. Then by all means have at it. At 03:02 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 02:59:52PM -0500, Tee wrote: No I don't waste my time. Give your ego a rest. Your not that impressive. Oh, 'tis not my ego that's the problem here, dearest. But simply that we're all waiting with bated breath to hear the answer. Official propagandists for the USA or (who is it you work for again, deary?) should be able to answer questions, don't you think? C'mon now, you *do* have something better than I don't waste my time or give yur ego a rest, eh? A real answer? At 01:25 PM 6/6/02 -0500, you wrote: H, been far longer than the ten second responce -- or the 30 minute. So, cat got your tongue? -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
Also, retard the injection timing by 2-3 degrees -- this overcomes the effect of biodiesel's higher cetane number. The engine loses a little of the extra power you get with biodiesel, but it runs quieter and the fuel burns cooler, reducing NOx emissions. (See also NOx emissions and biodiesel.) Neil - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 08:07:32AM +1000, Neil and Adele Craven wrote: my mistake injection timing, which on a Diesel is similar to the ignition timing on a petrol. Neil yes, right - still the same question -- why would you want to do this? Why would you want to retard the ignition? This is the first I've ever heard of anyone doing this with biodiesel. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
While we're at it, how about a discussion of the sucking trucking industry anyway? Just another one of the big suckers at the public teat, truckers. We always hear a lot of bad press for Amtrack here in the US from the right wing and free market types, but no mention from those same people about all the bigtime public welfare suckers like truckers and farmers. Where would the truckers be without public highways, their tracks? What we really need in this country is to mandate that absolutely no road construction or repair be done anywhere from this point forward unless it's paid for totally 100% by fuel tax. No general funds whatsoever going into highways. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] re: Reality
Well, as they say, chacun son gout. I think we're talking a difference of temperament here, rather than a real difference of opinion. I have great respect for anyone who can remain optimistic these days, and I definitely appreciate this egroup, both for the great info as well as a place to rant occasionally. Rest assured, it's possible to still be motivated to do the right thing EVEN when you have doubts it will do any good, so even pessimists like me can still make biodiesel and talk it up :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] re: Reality
We don't need everyone to do the right thing. Just some. ÊÊTo paraphrase anthropologist Margaret Mead, never underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has. on 6/6/02 5:57 PM, Ken Provost at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, as they say, chacun son gout. I think we're talking a difference of temperament here, rather than a real difference of opinion. I have great respect for anyone who can remain optimistic these days, and I definitely appreciate this egroup, both for the great info as well as a place to rant occasionally. Rest assured, it's possible to still be motivated to do the right thing EVEN when you have doubts it will do any good, so even pessimists like me can still make biodiesel and talk it up :-) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
This goes along the same lines as who should pay for airport security? Me? No. I don't fly. Adding $5 to every ticket won't hurt one thing. --- Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What we really need in this country is to mandate that absolutely no road construction or repair be done anywhere from this point forward unless it's paid for totally 100% by fuel tax. No general funds whatsoever going into highways. = -Martin Klingensmith http://archive.nnytech.net/ http://devzero.ath.cx/ http://www.nnytech.net/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
That's the first I've heard of anyone proposing to retard timing to lower NOx -- is anyone actually doing this? A catalytic converter would do the job with no loss of power or milage, and no increase in particulates. Of course, you couldn't run our high sulfur dinodiesel thru it then, but certainly you'd have problems running dinodiesel anyway if you retarded the injection timing, more smoke, less power, poor milage, etc. Bad idea all the way around. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
Harmon Seaver wrote: I think you don't understand what octance (cetane) ratings are all about. If anything, with a higher octane (or cetane, as the case may be) you would benefit from *advancing* the timing, not retarding it. At any rate, where did you get this idea of changing the timing for biodiesel anyway? There's absolutely no basis for it that I'm aware of, in any of the documentation. CETANE NUMBERS EUROPE: 43 - 57, average 50 U.S. lower, minimum 40, average 43 Higher cetane correlates with: improved combustion improved cold starting reduced noise, white smoke, HC, CO and particulate emissions particularly during early warm-up phase MOTOR VEHICLE FUELS www.carleton.ca/~dkarman/82571/FUELS2.ppt One approach often used to mitigate the NOx increase associated with biodiesel is to change the timing of the engine. Retarding the timing of these engines tends to reduce NOx emissions at the expense of increasing PM10. Urban Bus Operation http://www.worldenergy.net/articles/supportRes/documents/lifecycle_ch6.pdf CONCLUSIONS Fueling with biodiesel/diesel fuel blends effectively reduced particulate matter, unburned hydrocarbons, and carbon monoxide while increasing oxides of nitrogen emissions. The optimum blend of biodiesel and diesel fuel, based on the trade-off of PM decrease and NOx increase, was a 20/80 biodiesel/diesel fuel blend. Increased NOx emissions can be reduced by retarding engine timing while subsequently maintaining emission reductions associated with fueling a diesel engine with a 20/80 biodiesel/diesel fuel blend. The retarded timing lengthened the ignition delay time. This reduced the peak pressure and temperature that enhance the formation of NOx emissions. FUELING DIESEL ENGINES WITH BLENDS OF METHYL ESTER SOYBEAN OIL AND DIESEL FUEL http://www.missouri.edu/~pavt0689/Fueling_Diesel_Engines_with_Blends_of_Methyl_Ester_Soybean_Oil.pdf Emissions of NOX from biodiesel vehicles can be reduced substantially by adjusting the timing of injection. The Austrian study quoted above shows that, in buses, NOX emissions were reduced by 23% relative to fossil diesel by advancing injection timing. http://www.biodiesel.co.uk/press_release/submission_for_biofuels_2.htm Speed of sound and bulk modulus appear to cause ignition timing to advance by an average of one degree. This tendency contributes to some but not all of the increase in NOx emissions commonly seen in biodiesel engine stand emission tests. This information could also be used to support efforts to retard engine timing, although research on timing retardation with biodiesel and biodiesel blends show other emissions increasing when this occurs. A B100 engineövehicle system may eliminate or reduce the amount of NOx produced by biodiesel fuels, although a significant amount of engine mapping and research on fuel spray patterns, droplet size, droplet density, and other systems would be needed to accomplish this. Some of this research is underway in other projects. Measurement of Biodiesel Speed of Sound and Its Impact on Ignition Timing http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/99summaries/biodiesel.html Looking at Flash Point of Petro-Diesel Biodiesel 60-80 C, 100-170 C Biodiesel - Clean Green Diesel Fuel 2 page PDF http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy01osti/30882.pdf I would think advancing timing would increase biodiesel combustion. Searching Google brought forth far to many reports. ` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy01osti/30882.pdf If you look at page 2, there are no autoignition temp numbers for biodiesel. Bad news for those who are trying to develop a home heating oil system. I wonder if you could start a furnace on regular diesel and then switch over to bio like in a car? Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding Harmon Seaver wrote: I think you don't understand what octance (cetane) ratings are all about. If anything, with a higher octane (or cetane, as the case may be) you would benefit from *advancing* the timing, not retarding it. At any rate, where did you get this idea of changing the timing for biodiesel anyway? There's absolutely no basis for it that I'm aware of, in any of the documentation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ignition retarding cetane
MH wrote: CETANE NUMBERS EUROPE: 43 - 57, average 50 U.S. lower, minimum 40, average 43 Higher cetane correlates with: improved combustion improved cold starting reduced noise, white smoke, HC, CO and particulate emissions particularly during early warm-up phase MOTOR VEHICLE FUELS www.carleton.ca/~dkarman/82571/FUELS2.ppt Looking at the Cetane numbers above leaves me with the impression US BIG OIL is doing there best to increase sales unless theirs other reasons for this maybe a environment approach... Looking at Flash Point of Petro-Diesel Biodiesel 60-80 C, 100-170 C Biodiesel - Clean Green Diesel Fuel 2 page PDF http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy01osti/30882.pdf When looking at the Flash Point what do you think ?? Retard or Advance the Timing with Biodiesel and why. ` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gee, I thought that's exactely what I did -- where's your answer? So far all we've seen from you in response is ad hominem attacks -- c'mon address the issue! How long have you been working for the gov't? Geez, we don't have all day here -- even you burrowcrats can answer a straight question, eh? So why is it we don't have clean diesels in the US when they are available all over the rest of the world? Sorry dearie, but you just happened to hit a real pet peeve of mine, seriously -- I'm extremely pissed off by the fact that I can't buy any of those nice, clean, hi-tech diesel engines that VW and Mercedes are selling everywhere else. And why is that? Because scumbag politicians and scumbag propagandist like yourself are lying to the Amerikan public, isn't that right? Let's answer the questions, okay? Why is it that Cummins can't build an engine as good as VW or Mercedes? Is it simply that the scumbag criminals in the gov't haven't paid them enough welfare money? And the wefare suckers in the trucking industry -- didn't they get enough payoffs yet? How about you -- how much do they pay you to delude the public? I'm hesitant to jump into the middle of a hot debate, but IMHO the reason Cummins doesn't (not can't) build better Diesel engines, is the same reason Mercedes VW etc. won't/don't sell them here. Very poor fuel! Pearls before swine in reverse. A provocative thought...Who is really more technically advanced? The engine builders that can only use highly refined European fuels, or the ones who can run on the junk fuel we have in the US? Are we maybe comparing Apples and Oranges? Would it be a fair comparison to run a European engine on our junk fuel, and an American engine on European fuel? Which manufacturers will willingly provide warranty service for their engine if such a test were to be scheduled? Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
