Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
It's really difficult to watch some of those "undercover" videos of slaughter houses and laboratories without really examing the way you live and the way you think of animals. If everyone had to look at the animal they ate living and dying in little cages in industrial farms, full of hormones and antibiotics, I think things would be a lot different. Out of sight out of mind. I have to agree with what was said earlier, I have no problem with eating meat. I haveproblem with the system that delivers me that meat, and the impact that system has on the planet, as it's set up now. I enjoy pointing that out to people, too! When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. Chris N. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] give up meat? "Google" on "vegetarian" and you'll find numerous sources of information on how to get anhealthful diet. I've been "vegetarian" for two and a half years now, although I have to admit I occasionally eat fish (sustainable types), milk (organic) -- although I usually use "soy" milk, eggs (free range, organic), and cheese. Maybe I'll take the leap to vegan-ism some day, but that's a tough move. I was motivated to go vegetarian by reading about the cruel "living" conditions in which most of our meat animals are raised, by trying to achievebetter health for myself, and to have less of an impact on the environment. I drive throughfarm country inMaryland and in South Central Pennsylvania fairly often, and I see many examples of unmitigated livestock waste runoff into the local streams, which then ends up in the Chesapeake to choke off life there. (Certainly there are other sources of nutrient load and toxic chemicals as well.) Most of the planted fields grow food for the meat animals as well. I'd much rather see that land used to grow foods for vegetarians and source plants for biofuels. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Hi Chris, Bob It's really difficult to watch some of those undercover videos of slaughter houses and laboratories without really examing the way you live and the way you think of animals. I've been finding it more and more difficult. I'm not willing to turn away either. If you deal with livestock or any animals all the time, no matter what kind of animals, you know what they're really like, that they're fellow-creatures with their own lives and personalities, and somehow, that they're basically good. They're not just things to be used, or abused, at our convenience. It's supposed to be a sort of partnership. Everything about the industrialised system is just so horribly wrong. Okay, it's deeply evil, that's how I feel about it, and I've been feeling it more and more as the years go by, feeling it as well as thinking it and knowing it. I'm still having difficulty with the millions of birds that were wiped out in East and Southeast Asia during the bird flu epidemic. It's not whether it was necessary or not. It was brutal and inhuman. There was no sign that anyone looked at it from the birds' point of view, only the human risk and the financial loss. But you have to put yourself in the other person's position, walk a mile in his shoes. That's why we have an imagination and it's what keeps us human. But a chicken isn't a person, right? If you think that you've never kept chickens. Not a human, but I just don't think that's very relevant. Anyway I've known some animals that demonstrated repeatedly that they were more human than some of the humans were. We're all in this together, all we living creatures trying to go about our daily business on the face of this fair planet, we're interdependent. We're not more important, we're not the only ones that matter. Nonetheless, we small farmers and smallholders who keep livestock, no matter how well we may treat them, we still kill them in the end. Indeed we do, but this death has virtually nothing in common with what happens in the industrial slaughterhouses. Kim has discussed this here before, how she slaughters her livestock, and I totally agree with her. Give any animal the choice and see which they'd choose. If everyone had to look at the animal they ate living ... as such... and dying in little cages in industrial farms, full of hormones and antibiotics, I think things would be a lot different. I agree. Confronted with it head-on, with no chance to turn away, most people would change their ways, stop supporting it and start fighting it. But I believe that is happening and it's only a matter of time before it leads to real, lasting changes. Out of sight out of mind. Yes, but less and less so maybe. There are a lot of people who feel as you do, and who enjoy pointing it out. I have to agree with what was said earlier, I have no problem with eating meat. I have problem with the system that delivers me that meat, and the impact that system has on the planet, as it's set up now. I enjoy pointing that out to people, too! Don't stop! When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. :-) Always easier to label-and-dismiss than to consider something that might threaten one's comforts. Creatures with no backbones fell down or hid from each other, giving rise to generations of small, dying creatures. Chris N. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] give up meat? Google on vegetarian and you'll find numerous sources of information on how to get an healthful diet. I've been vegetarian for two and a half years now, although I have to admit I occasionally eat fish (sustainable types), milk (organic) -- although I usually use soy milk, eggs (free range, organic), and cheese. Maybe I'll take the leap to vegan-ism some day, but that's a tough move. I was motivated to go vegetarian by reading about the cruel living conditions in which most of our meat animals are raised, by trying to achieve better health for myself, and to have less of an impact on the environment. I drive through farm country in Maryland and in South Central Pennsylvania fairly often, and I see many examples of unmitigated livestock waste runoff into the local streams, which then ends up in the Chesapeake to choke off life there. (Certainly there are other sources of nutrient load and toxic chemicals as well.) Most of the planted fields grow food for the meat animals as well. I'd much rather see that land used to grow foods for vegetarians and source plants for biofuels. Trouble is it
Re[2]: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Hallo Folks, Saturday, 09 July, 2005, 03:44:18, you wrote: When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. KA :-) Always easier to label-and-dismiss than to consider something KA that might threaten one's comforts. ...snip... KA Trouble is it wouldn't work, if you have a look at earlier KA messages in this thread. Maintaining soil fertility means farming KA with animals, and when it's done properly it's humane, sustainable KA and profitable. ...snip... We have, on and off over the years, raised our own meat, milk and eggs and even made our own tofu. I was a vegetarian up until about 1969 or 1970. My father was a butcher and before I left home (at 16) I was forced to eat meat but when I left I chose to be a vegetarian. I don't know how I came to return to eating meat but I did. When my kids were children and we were in the habit of keeping animals for meat and milk the kids liked to name the animals. I had them naming the cattle and hogs things like Essen, Speise, Wurst and such which are German words which are food related. I figured that way when it came time to butcher them they would not be in for too big a shock. It appears to have worked. The animals were loved and well cared for. Their end purpose, just like a field of grain, was however as food. The kids were taught to be kind to the animals, to keep them clean and well fed and watered but to not lose sight of their purpose which was three fold. First they were to nourish the family. Second they were to save us money (as we have always lived below the poverty level for our family size). Third they were to provide healthy food free from chemicals, medications, hormones and whatever. Keith is absolutely correct in stating that the animals have their own personalities. Even the turkeys and chickens do if you observe them long enough and are observant enough. Everything however has a purpose and the purpose of some animals is, in the end, food. What we can do, survive quite nicely on a vegetarian diet, and what we actually do are for many if not most of us worlds apart. As with anything else in nature, whether it be people or resources of one sort or another, we have a responsibility to have a reasonable and wise use and treatment of these things. Unfortunately we seem to choose waste, convenience and pollution over utility, conservation and wise use of our world and that which inhabits it. And again unfortunately we seem to not only reward these things but encourage them for greater profits of the few over the many. We drive our family farmers out of a livlihood, drive the small community based businesses out of business and force our people to become, of necessity, part of the low-wage high-profit machine. For me the debate is not about veggies/meat but about wise use. There is room for the meat eaters and the vegetarians. Without those consuming meat we would have a boatload of domesticated animals competing for the very things the vegetarians want to eat. How we got to this place and whether or not it is right makes no difference at all. Here is where we are and this is what we have to deal with. If the whole world became vegetarian overnight we would still have to figure out what to do with the animals and they would still die because they would be competing for the very food we need to survive. Animals don't have guns and anyone thinking that fences would work need to get out and around animals more. When they get hungry or want out you better be sure your fence is made of cement and plenty high. I have seen a bull back out through a barn wall as easily as Arnold Schwarzenegger would walk through a wall made out of a sheet of paper and two steers jump a five foot woven wire fence with a strand of electric wire six inches above that like they were deer and if they couldn't have jumped it and wanted out they would have trampled it down. Come to think of it I have seen a cow run through and trample down a woven wire fence and electric fencing as well. As with everything else it all boils down to restraint, responsibility, reason and discipline. The way the world works now may appear reasonable but that is deceiving. Economics says that paper and metal have worth but not so very long ago it was carved sticks of wood called tallysticks. It is all in how one looks at it. Change your perspective and your reality changes. Reality is, after all, something we have to agree on. Without that agreement it doesn't exist for us in exactly the same way it does for others.
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hakan, The whole Bush propaganda, about WMD has in all its aspects been provento be without any substance. No WMDs or program to produce them have been found in Iraq. In UK this is a big scandal and Blair is suffering from it, but the Americans seems to be more tolerant about their government's lies about it. Somebody posted earlier calling us Sheeple...that explains our tolerance. LOL What is the probability that they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their situation? I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused, like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys. I use this example: If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, well lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, we are liberating you from this oppressive government. You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some guns and fighting the intruders. The news would say it was our only hope for survival. And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a field day. Most people still cannot grasp the concept. Here is the link to that respected talk show host. This is the entire transcript, all of what he said. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.guest.html This will give you an idea of why we are so accepting of our governments lies, Hakan. Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to turn it off and form my own opinion. If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias. Again, no problem with this, I just don't agree. Without left we can have no right. The problem is when they get out of balance, yin and yang. Happy Day to all Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ASPO on the Economic near-Future
hakan, When we talk about oil prices, we are talking on the prices and trading on the spot market trading on the market means trade on the international exchanges. Most large supplies are contracted and not bought on the spot market, but the contractual prices are regulated by the spot market, This means that the prices are dependent on demand and supply, at the ultimate levels and margins. Before the war, the total Iraq production was near the swing (extra) production capacity. . .By taking out the swing capacity, the oil price get truly dependent on demand, since there are no more cushions, other than US purchases to its strategic inventory reserves. If the demand rises more than expected, as the non foreseeable demands from China and India, the market get very sensitive and without extra production capacity, the price will be the only regulating factor. i don't argue that the iraqui war hasn't had an impact on oil prices. but what you are saying still only underscores my point: there are certain market forces which influence oil prices, and which have been conspicuously unaffected by the u.s. invasion. in the markets, demand is a highly speculative thing. it's what the traders *think* demand is or will be. so they look at this storm two or three days from the gulf of mexico and they think hmmm, *if* this storm continues moving towards the gulf, and *if* it damages any of the oil installations or runs a tanker aground, then supply will be ever so little bit tighter, so i better put in more buy orders now before prices start to climb. this of course drives up prices overnight by ~10% when in reality nothing has changed that should cause this i.e. there has been no change in supply. yet somehow, the same traders didn't look at the impending invasion and say wow, iraqui production is equivalent to the swing production; an invasion could disrupt the flow from iraq, which would *really* tighten up supply so i better start buying now before prices start to climb. given the impact the tro pical storm had, you'd expect the prospect of invasion to have caused an immediate leap of at least 35% to 50%, with continued dramatic spikes as the iraqui situation became increasingly unstable. anyway, it seems we are talking about the same thing from slightly different angles, and perhaps merely differ on the importance of the trading markets. -chris b. In a message dated 7/7/05 7:16:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When we talk about oil prices, we are talking on the prices and trading on the spot market, which are relatively small volumes. Most large supplies are contracted and not bought on the spot market, but the contractual prices are regulated by the spot market, This means that the prices are dependent on demand and supply, at the ultimate levels and margins. Before the war, the total Iraq production was near the swing (extra) production capacity, which is what was needed to maintain a low oil price. There are only two price regulating factors, the swing production and the US purchases to its strategic inventory reserves. The latter was introduced after the first oil crises, 35 years ago, to give US a pricing tool for managing any new crises. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
back in the '80s i started comparing the dual-party system here to choosing between coke and pepsi. with some satisfaction, i sometimes hear that same sentiment from others. i must admit, though, that while at first i was quite in favor of dean, my disappointment was short-lived once he got sidelined. since kerry seemed the nominee-apparent, i tried to find out what i could about him beyond what the media was providing. what i found surprised me. if there was a single democratic nominee in the past quarter century with solid credentials, it had to be kerry. his post-vietnam efforts (on behalf of both the veterans and the truth about what happened there), and his instrumental role in getting the c.i.a. to admit to its role in the L.A. crack epidemic, are just two examples. how credentials like his could get morphed into the pathetic candidate we saw in 2000 is beyond me. compare that platform to his record in the senate, and it's quite startling. but that seems to be the strategic choice the democrat ic party has made in the post-reagan era: centrism as philosophy/policy i.e. ideology, in contrast to the republican use of centrist rhetoric as a campaign tactic. all the sadder when you consider the wasted potential of other former democratic leaders, esp. carter, mondale and clinton (although the former and the latter aren't without their black marks). i look at interviews they've done and am truly impressed by their intellect and insight. -chris b. ---BeginMessage--- Thanks Ryan. I'm with you on everything you said. You mentioned the Dems. Nader called Democrats and Republicans part of a vast duopoly and I tend to agree. Theplatforms of both Bush and Kerry were strikingly similar.Ironically (or maybe not),the Nader campaign received very little air time in the media and was shut out of political debates. I'm not sure how much you know about Nader but, based on hiscredentials and the credentials of his running mate, Peter Miguel Camejo, there was a real opportunity to have a legitimate president in the White House. I have no doubt that both of themwould havedemonstratedtheir feelingstowardthe sanctity of life with legitimate and peaceful solutions to poverty, hunger and civil liberties (among other things). Here is some biographical information on Camejo. His background makes Bush and Kerry look pretty inadequate. Despite that, the media and political maneuvering by Bush and Kerry shut them out. Peter Miguel Camejo: He marched in Selma, Alabama with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., rallied for migrant farm workers and was active against the war in Vietnam. He was admitted to MIT after receiving a perfect score on the Math SAT test. He attended UC Berkeley where he studied history. In 1967, after winning a student council election at UC Berkeley he was suspended for "using an unauthorized microphone" protesting the Vietnam War. When he was 20 he competed in the Olympics in Italy as a yachtsman. http://www.votenader.org/media_press/index.php?cid=80 Put that alongsideour presidents academic record and failed business attempts. Hell,just getting him to speak a coherent and complete sentence would be a step in the right direction. Mike Ryan Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael As an American citizen, I must believe that there are people in the world who understand that not all Americans stand by this president and that there is a difference between a people and its government There are quite a few of us out there. The problem is that many of the people who didn't like what this administration stood for, also didn't vote. The Bush campaign did a marvelous job of making their constituency happy come campaign time and also made sure that the things their constituency cared about (abortion, gay marriage etc.) got on the ballot. This spurred them to go vote so that them gay baby killin' librils won't take the country from 'em. The Dems did a terrible job of rallying support. Dean was doing great with the youth, but of course he screamed into a microphone and apparantly that makes him unfit to be president...hey, at least he could speak, right. Ryan ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ---End Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing
[Biofuel] ethanol from animal waste
Robert mentioned his concern over the masses of animal waste pouring into the rivers. I found these articles showing how in N Carolina they are starting to make pig waste into ethanol. Has anyone researched this area? Marilyn http://mark.asci.ncsu.edu/SwineReports/2001/03manbrett.htm Formation of Fuel-Grade Ethanol from Swine Waste via Gasification B. Kaspers, J. Koger, R. Gould[1], A. Wossink[2], R. Edens[2], and T. van Kempen Summary The objective of this project is to investigate the application of gasification technologies to the treatment of swine waste for the ultimate production of fuel-grade ethanol. This waste treatment system would reduce the negative environmental impact of current manure management systems. The research objectives are: 1) to develop and test a system for harvesting swine manure in a form dry enough to be used as a gasification feedstock, 2) to establish the feasibility and the gasification conditions for the swine waste/amendments feedstock, 3) to characterize the end products of gasification (ethanol and mineral ash) and their potential markets, and 4) to conduct a rigorous economic analysis on the entire swine manure management model to determine its feasibility along with the factors that promote or impede its implementation. Introduction Ethanol production (primarily via fermentative methods) from crops and other renewable biomass sources has received much attention recently, but the current approach has problems. Mainly, crop-based feedstocks are subject to seasonal fluctuations in supply, ultimately limiting ethanol generation. Such feedstocks necessitate either lengthy storage of the perishable plant materials or stopping ethanol production altogether during the off-season. Another dilemma faced is that some of the feedstocks currently used in ethanol production (e.g. corn stubble) have a greater value elsewhere (e.g. fertilizer). More specifically, the energy cost in harvesting these feedstocks (e.g. corn stubble) as well as their lost value as soil amendments makes ethanol production costly to farmers (Pimental, 1992). Animal manures avoid many of these problems because they are a truly renewable feedstock. The quantity of swine manure produced in the U.S, estimated at 5 billion kg dry matter per year, is sufficient to contribute substantially to ethanol supplies. Assuming a conversion efficiency of 40%, there is a theoretical ethanol yield of 500 million gallons per year. North Carolina is the second largest hog-producing state within the U.S. with a swine population large enough for gasification technology to be feasible. Thus, ethanol production of 80 million gallons per year should theoretically be attainable. The most recent RFA (Renewable Fuels Association) Ethanol Report (May 11, 2000) concludes that replacing corn with less expensive feedstocks will result in substantial reductions in ethanol production costs. Gasification of biomass has received much attention as a means to convert waste materials to a variety of energy forms (i.e. electricity, combustible gases, synfuels, various fuel alcohols, etc.). Gasification is a two-step, endothermic process in which solid fuel is thermochemically converted into a low or medium Btu gas. Pyrolysis (Step 1) of the biomass is followed by either direct or indirect oxygen-deprived combustion (Step 2) during the gasification process. This process converts raw biomass into a combustible gas, retaining 60-70 % of the feedstock's original energy content. Thermochems steam reformer is the system we are investigating to gasify our feedstock because this type of gasifier produces a hydrogen-rich, medium-Btu fuel gas. This gasifier design percolates superheated steam through an indirectly heated inert fluidized bed of sand or a mineral material. The organic feedstock injected into the bed undergoes a rapid sequence of pyrolysis and vaporization reactions. Higher hydrocarbons released among the pyrolysis products are steam cracked and partially reformed to produce low molecular weight species. This process produces a gas with nearly immeasurable environmental emissions of NOx, SOx, CO, and particulates. The main reason this particular gasifier design is favored is because of its hydrogen to carbon ratio (2:1) is ideal for ethanol synthesis. A recent cost and performance analysis of biomass (i.e. wood) gasification systems for combined power generation indicated that such a steam system (Battelle Columbus Laboratory) had the lowest capital cost and product electricity cost (Craig and Mann, 1997). There is an intensive effort, especially in North Carolina, to develop a better waste management strategy. The ultimate goal of this project is to eliminate the land application of lagoon effluent. The elimination of this waste via gasification would abolish the need for land application of waste. The primary obstacle to
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Paddy, Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget (compared to FY2005). I haven't finished looking to see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in National Defense in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the unexpected costs of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on? Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for? From the FY2006 budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites. That's something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes. I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them? Many of the members of this administration are from either the oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental destruction there ever was. To them, saving the environment means losing money. And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian). Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, we don't count civilian casualties politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks). I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they are wasting our money on. Go to http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget. Thanks, Earl Kinsley - Original Message - From: Paddy O'Reilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here. Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence budgets of other superpowers put together. And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care). So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons of mass destruction isn't. Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term Heck of an expensive program(me) should be reserved for George Dubya's retirement fund (aka defence budget). As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense. By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American mutated version. The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings Robert, Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. That and southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it? Most people, even here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. It's silly with respect to how fluid a country actually can be (in terms of what it is). The Canada I grew up in and loved no longer exists, and hasn't for the last 15 years. What has been foisted on us is awful, and I find myself without a country. However, the values that made Canada great are largely still present in the USA, so here I am. I don't find the loss of Canada silly, and I don't find my growing identification with the USA silly. One only needs to watch what results when something as valuable as Canada is destroyed through neglect, apathy, sarcasm, self-interest and greed. As my father said to me, I grew up when Canada was free. It was sublime. The true north strong and free indeed. I suspect the reason Canada didn't support the US action in the gulf was more out of the fear of not being able to defend ourselves than any moral stand. I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum about London. Lots of argument about what each person thinks their unimpeachable sources of information say. Nothing about the current event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the nature of the value systems that executed these actions. There is nothing that can justify these actions, nor nothing that would cause me to ever sit at a table to negiotiate anything other than an unconditional surrender and the incarceration/ execution of the perps. Best regards... Tim -- We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
hi, keith. In a message dated 7/8/05 2:22:30 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. by this point in the thread, this has become amply clear. and i'm realizing massive brainfart induced by misinformation overload. i mean, of course there's no need to raise cattle on a diet of feed/grain/meal, otherwise they wouldn't need all those stomachs! thanks for so persistently driving the point home. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
intentional neglect, if you ask me. since the '70s the right wing (primarily) of the political establishment has been arguing that america's next great challenge was going to be terrorism. they dialed up this rehetoric considerably when reagan got ito office, and redoubled it after the collapse of the fsu. of course, they knew what they were talking about, because they were very well aware of what america's policy in the middle east was breeding. the bush family has very close ties to the saudi royal family and the bin laden family going back more than 30 years. connect the dots. . . . -chris b. In a message dated 7/8/05 2:22:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You'll never understand it if you see it in the polarised American Clinton vs Bush keyhole view. Both were responsible, but especially Bush, as an abundance of evidence, testimony and subsequent revelation of sheer neglect has shown, much of it in the list archive for your convenience. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hello Tim Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings Robert, Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. That and southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it? Most people, even here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. It's silly with respect to how fluid a country actually can be (in terms of what it is). The Canada I grew up in and loved no longer exists, and hasn't for the last 15 years. What has been foisted on us is awful, and I find myself without a country. Welcome! However, the values that made Canada great are largely still present in the USA, so here I am. I don't find the loss of Canada silly, and I don't find my growing identification with the USA silly. Oops. One only needs to watch what results when something as valuable as Canada is destroyed through neglect, apathy, sarcasm, self-interest and greed. As my father said to me, I grew up when Canada was free. It was sublime. The true north strong and free indeed. I suspect the reason Canada didn't support the US action in the gulf was more out of the fear of not being able to defend ourselves than any moral stand. I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum about London. But you just did. Thankyou. Lots of argument about what each person thinks their unimpeachable sources of information say. Who are you quoting please? I can't find that word used in the discussions, let alone in that context. Nothing about the current event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the nature of the value systems that executed these actions. Nothing about all the dominoes toppled elsewhere that brought us all to this either. There is nothing that can justify these actions, Who wants to justify them? nor nothing that would cause me to ever sit at a table to negiotiate anything other than an unconditional surrender and the incarceration/ execution of the perps. You're talking the language of blame. As recent history has shown rather loudly, it's this kind of thinking that lashes out, desperate to find someone to punish, oblivious to all else, such as the reasons for the attack, the long chains of cause and consequence that have brought us all to London as you call it, which stretch back sometimes to not quite what you might expect. That's what a lynch mob does. So we must lash out again, maybe at altogether the wrong target again, and set in motion more chains of causes and consequences that bring us to more London's, just as it's brought us to other places and dates. It's called sowing dragon's teeth. Osama bin Laden is exactly a dragon's tooth. Rather than raise a lynch mob it makes much more sense to find out just what happened and trace it back to its causes - who, what, where, when, why and how (a good reporter answers all those questions in the first 25 words). But where there's lots of blame-talk flying around raising such questions can get a person accused of attempting to justify the crime, being soft on terrorists. Anyway, how would you make certain that they're the right perps? The picture that's emerging in other posts is that none of the perps imprisoned were perps anyway, only a andlful have been charged, huindreds of others or more were innocent, and the REAL perps remain free. So that didn't work very well. Meanwhile there were 3,192 terror attacks worldwide last year with 28,433 people wounded, killed or kidnapped. So that isn't working very well either. Anyway, the Brits are coping with it, as one would expect, they're tough and level-headed folk. *They* know that there's a hell of a lot more to London than just London. What do you think of Spain's response to Madrid? Best wishes Keith You can never solve a problem with the same kind of thinking that created the problem in the first place - Albert Einstein. Best regards... Tim -- We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
the u.s.a. allows dual-citizenship with a very few specific countries. -chris b. In a message dated 7/8/05 5:12:36 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frantz wrote: USA don't allow dual citizenship I am a dual citizen of the USA and Switzerland. As far as being citizen of the world, many of us in this forum have already expressed our agreement on that vision. A thread on that can be found in the archives. Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Tim Brodie wrote: I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum about London. Lots of argument about what each person thinks their unimpeachable sources of information say. Nothing about the current event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the nature of the value systems that executed these actions. There has been plenty of discussion concerning the nature of the value systems undergirding the evil in our world. Have you been paying attention? What happened in London is yet another symptom of a far deeper problem. There is nothing that can justify these actions, nor nothing that would cause me to ever sit at a table to negiotiate anything other than an unconditional surrender and the incarceration/ execution of the perps. I think nearly everyone who contributes to this forum would agree that the London bombings were heinous, criminal acts. Yet when you speak of unconditional surrender, you invoke military language. In the classic sense, are you able to define the enemy? Can you point to a nation state as the perpetrator of such terrorism, or must we engage in endless, mindless slaughter of ill defined enemies until those enemies have no recourse other than to lash back at us? Has the policy of going after terrorism with the blunt cudgel of military power proven effective in eliminating the terrorist threat? A very wise man once said: Violence begets violence. The way of peace is a long and difficult path, but it begins with listening. Best regards... Tim And to you as well, Tim. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
hi, kim. perhaps my understanding of the political trajectory is more limited than i give myselfcredit for, but i've kind of had the notion that canada's political process was hijacked in the sameway as the u.s.' during the reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more discretely?). thanks for the confirmation. and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border. all in all, you might call it "u.s.a. light"? ;^, -chris b.-Original Message-From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:34:14 -0500Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Greetings,I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush. Good examples of what I am saying is the software developed by Canada for electronic tracking of persons and words and the latest nonsense of not allowing delegates to the symposium on GE foods in Montreal. Canada is as much under the same control of the same multinationals as the US is. I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same.Bright Blessings,KimA World citizen with a Canadian passport.At 11:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:Garth Kim Travis wrote:Greetings,Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people. Remember the FLQ? They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to break Canada into 2 countries. The emergency measures act is fully equal to the patriot act. And yes, it has been implemented in my lifetime. Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is perfect is nonsense. That wasn't my point, Kim. You are correct that every nation has its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA (remember them?) was a domestic organization. What I'm trying to communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the attitudes people maintain toward the United States. Do you disagree?robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782Ranger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
yep, and just short months ago, you almost couldn't talk about abu ghreib without speaking gonzales' name breath thanks to his role in redefining the armed forces' interpretation of the word 'torture'. suddenly, given justice o'connor's resgination, the right and the complicit media arewasting no time intheir effort to reframe the debate by pointing out how he's unacceptable to the social conservatives. gee, he's not anti-choice? well maybe he'd be an ok justice after all. . . .*snort* -chris b. -Original Message-From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:06:11 -0700 (PDT)Subject: RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid "May 17 - The White House's top lawyer warned more than two years ago that U.S. officials could be prosecuted for "war crimes" as a result of new and unorthodox measures used by the Bush administration in the war on terrorism, according to an internal White House memo and interviews with participants in the debate over the issue." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/site/newsweek/ Mike Chris Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."I'm not even sure that he knew about the attack, I saw the firstvideo he put out after 9/11 with the corrected voice over. He neverclaimed responsibility for himself or his terror groups. He did say hethought that America got what it disserved and the people who did itwere heroes. I would have thought that after pulling off an attack likethat he would have bragged about it like he did with his attacks inAfghanistan. Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved inthe 9/11 attack, the only people arrested/convicted in the UK have beendone for "Being members of a terrorist organisation" or even beingfriends of someone thought to be a member of a terrorist organisation.After arresting nearly 400 people in the UK less than 10 have beenconvicted or sent to the US. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date:08/07/2005___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Greetings, Actually I think Canada was hijacked long before Regan, it was Trudeau that did it. He took a strong independent country and put in all kinds of extravegant government services. He gave the people $1.31 worth of services for every $1 we paid in taxes. This went on for 17 years, since Canada has no term limits. A whole generation came to adulthood and had their kids under this kind of greed, so when it came time to pay the piper, well you know how the rest of the story goes. If you are going to ask me where I got the figures, frankly I no longer remember the source. It was researched thoroughly back in my college days. As to what Canada has been up to for the last 13 years, I am just a visitor now and then. I live in Texas and don't follow the Canadian news much. I have had lots to learn living in a new country and learning how to create a sustainable farm. I was a city girl, till Texas. I do hear my kids and my family B* but I have no real knowledge of what is happening there anymore. Bright Blessings, Kim At 03:59 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: hi, kim. perhaps my understanding of the political trajectory is more limited than i give myself credit for, but i've kind of had the notion that canada's political process was hijacked in the same way as the u.s.' during the reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more discretely?). thanks for the confirmation. and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border. all in all, you might call it u.s.a. light? ;^, -chris b. -Original Message- From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:34:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Greetings, I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush. Good examples of what I am saying is the software developed by Canada for electronic tracking of persons and words and the latest nonsense of not allowing delegates to the symposium on GE foods in Montreal. Canada is as much under the same control of the same multinationals as the US is. I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same. Bright Blessings, Kim A World citizen with a Canadian passport. At 11:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people. Remember the FLQ? They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to break Canada into 2 countries. The emergency measures act is fully equal to the patriot act. And yes, it has been implemented in my lifetime. Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is perfect is nonsense. That wasn't my point, Kim. You are correct that every nation has its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA (remember them?) was a domestic organization. What I'm trying to communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the attitudes people maintain toward the United States. Do you disagree? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ nb ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Bring land back from the dead
Traditional agriculture is slowly killing the available land, which means more work for the rest of us who want to own land some day. What would be the necessary steps to restore, say, a former landfill site or a former gas station? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Bring land back from the dead
traditional agriculture isn't killing the land, its the massive intensive monoculture farming that's killing the land. there's also large areas tied up with such things as mines and munitions going back to the 2nd and first world war that prevent areas of land being used. a gas station doesn't typically take up much space, you would need to get some soil tests done to find out how extensive the damage is, then remove the affected soil and replace it with top soil from another clean source. other wise growing hardy quick growing weeds, and mowing them down till they pull out a good deal of the residues. I imagine lead content would be an issue Landfill sites, at least the modern ones are typically capped with enough soil to grow trees grass and other plants, some of the earlier ones require extensive work to recap, put in run off capture areas that requires waste water treatment. this wouldn't be viable for a single person, but is something that a local municipality needs to take care of. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of r Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 11:04 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Bring land back from the dead Traditional agriculture is slowly killing the available land, which means more work for the rest of us who want to own land some day. What would be the necessary steps to restore, say, a former landfill site or a former gas station? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring land back from the dead
Greetings, There are still many areas where land is cheap because it has been burned out by cotton rot, too much corn growing and overgrazing. If you want to get into agriculture, I would suggest that this would be a better place to start than a landfill or service station. I bought this kind of land 13 years ago and I am now able to run 100% grass fed beef and sheep. It takes patience, time and very little money to fix the damage or lots of money and no patience. Life is full of these kind of choices. As for reclaiming land, the story and history of Buchard Gardens in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada makes for interesting reading. Bright Blessings, Kim At 06:03 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: Traditional agriculture is slowly killing the available land, which means more work for the rest of us who want to own land some day. What would be the necessary steps to restore, say, a former landfill site or a former gas station? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Ryan, At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: snip What is the probability that they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their situation? I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to this questions was and here is what I wrote, I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population that to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15 years of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their situation? I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused, like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys. I use this example: If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, well lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, we are liberating you from this oppressive government. You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some guns and fighting the intruders. The news would say it was our only hope for survival. And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a field day. Most people still cannot grasp the concept. Here is the link to that respected talk show host. This is the entire transcript, all of what he said. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.guest.html I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner he is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the following questions. Do many Americans listen to this? Are you not afraid when you hear his views? You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I will not go so far as that they belive this whacko, or do they? I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was almost impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person well, that had been killed by the Americans. With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved as liberators? Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the Americans a bit naive? Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100 years before Iraq can get over this with the Americans? Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love his family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier? If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country, including US, very easy to occupy and subdue? Hakan This will give you an idea of why we are so accepting of our governments lies, Hakan. Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to turn it off and form my own opinion. If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias. Again, no problem with this, I just don't agree. Without left we can have no right. The problem is when they get out of balance, yin and yang. Happy Day to all Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. Actually, getting enough protein on a vegan diet is not at all a problem. However, you do have to eat legumes and carbohydrates to get a complete protein from vegetables alone. There is much research going on every day to point to a potiential excess of protein in the average American diet but, I don't think that there is any definitive scientific proof to conclude either way on this subject. Even the USDA has recently produced reports stating that protein intakes needed to be curbed in the U.S. - keep in mind, I don't hold much stock in anything the USDA releases. The only real nutritional issue with a meat and dairy-free diet is a defficiency of the vitamin B12 which is only naturally available in meat. There are vegans who don't get supplemental B12 and are quite healthy. I get mine from Silk soy milk, though. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Unfortunately voting Libertarian had nothing to do with getting rid of these extreemists... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: = Paddy, Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget (compared to FY2005). I haven't finished looking to see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in National Defense in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the unexpected costs of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on? Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for? From the FY2006 budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites. That's something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes. I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them? Many of the members of this administration are from either the oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental destruction there ever was. To them, saving the environment means losing money. And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian). Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, we don't count civilian casualties politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks). I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they are wasting our money on. Go to http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget. Thanks, Earl Kinsley - Original Message - From: Paddy O'Reilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. I'm sorry, but I have to comment on what's being said here. Basically, the American tax dollar is begrudgingly given to help with cleaning up our environment to the tune of 210 million (ever deflating) US dollars yet a blind eye is being cast on the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of those same dollars being wasted on the beloved American Defence Budget. I heard somewhere that the INCREASE in the American defence budget this year exceeds the total defence budgets of the next five largest defence budgets of other superpowers put together. And George won't even consider cancelling third nation debt (I suppose it doesn't hold any immediate return for him so he doesn't care). So putting the whole thing into perspective, the payment of 0.175% of the American defence budget (which will be spent on developing new and improved ways of wiping out the planet in the shortest time possible) on helping some other Americans develop ways of reducing our dependence on the Earth's natural resources is a waste of money while creating weapons of mass destruction isn't. Hmmm, methinks there's a slight imbalance in priorities here. The term Heck of an expensive program(me) should be reserved for George Dubya's retirement fund (aka defence budget). As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. I've cut out as much as is reasonable from this email trail to preserve bandwidth. Hope it still makes sense. By the way, I'm using English spelling in this mail not the American mutated version. The information contained in this e-mail and in any attachments is confidential and is designated solely for the attention of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this e-mail or any part thereof. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete all copies of this e-mail from your computer system(s). Please direct any additional queries to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Tim Brodie, I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum about London. Lots of argument about what each person thinks their unimpeachable sources of information say. Nothing about the current event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the nature of the value systems that executed these actions. Why would you find it fascinating? People build bombs. People blow up and never see their loved ones again. People get maimed, scarred and disfigured for life and perhaps never look at anything in the same fashion again, much less in a natural fashion. That's not fascinating. That's horror. Perhaps what is fascinating is the fact that the recipient nations remain defiant in their industrial, colonial, imperial and military endeavors, refusing to address the core of the problem, in turn giving no cause for insurgents, terrorists or freedom fighters to back down either. Think about this for a moment: In Iraq War #1, there were two quotes that while they echo in my daily being seem to have been lost on 99.9% of the world's population. The first was George Herbert Walker Bush stating that This is about jobs, American jobs. The second was George Schultz stating, This is about preserving the American lifestyle. Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraqi oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no effort to resolve the issue diplomatically. But take a look at the responses from American leadership, - jobs and lifestyle were the paramount justifications for war, not any moral high ground, not any points of light, just jobs and the American lifestyle. Now, tell me what has changed since then. Afghanistan being a house of military bedlam for two plus decades, fueled by both the United States and the USSR. Entire populations of similar mindsets in neighboring nations fed up with the American lifestyle and how its manipulations had, are and will continue to affect them if change is not brought about. Individuals of limitted resources adamant that change must be effected as soon as possible and with some justification at perhaps all costs. What is fascinating and remarkable is that in the face of what many perceive - in many respects correctly so - to be international oppression, starvation, exploitation and strangulation, no one addresses the role that imperialistic powers play in lighting the fuses that lead to events such as London. They certainly didn't address the same issues on September 12th, 2002. They haven't discussed their own role since then. Personally? Were I of Arab descent? I'd be mad as hell. And knowing how easily it is for humans to be impatient and act or react rather than wait for a slow, bureaucratic, greedy internatiionally intwined monster to even begin to deliberate what it might destroy or compromise with its next bite, it's not a far reach to understand where the underpinnings of all this originate from. That's what is fascinating. The denial, avoidance and betrayal of the core issues by national governments, all more interested in their lifestyle than the betterment and peace of the rest of the globe's peoples. So why talk about London and evil of type you imply when the evil at the core remains unaddressed, much less resolved? I think that evil at the core is what is being addressed here. The bombs, bloodletting, shortened lives and lost futures is what we'd all like to prevent, even if it seems to be so simple as de-evolving and choosing alternative and softer paths.. Unfortunately, cowboys and assholes in power (not!) would rather preserve American and western lifestyles as they have derisively become to be known. I believe we're all in for a bit of a shock if such mindlessness is permitted to prevail. And we haven't seen anything yet if we don't change our direction and goals as a country. Todd Swearingen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh
Hakan, Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans, enough that we have the president and legislator we have today. Another broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarks by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biological weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar. Visit http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html to read his remarks. Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales. Harvey has been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good salesmen. He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged to substantially affect sales. He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen to his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time. Luck of the draw that I heard that program that I did. There are good people in America, I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allows them enough time to do so. Doug - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid : : Ryan, : : At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: : snip : : What is the probability that : they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans : surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that : some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their : situation? : : I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to this : questions was and here is what I wrote, : : I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up : with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population that : to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15 years : of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making : the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that : they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans : surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that : some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their : situation? : : : : I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused, : like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys. I use : this example: : If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, well : lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, we are : liberating you from this oppressive government. : You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some : guns and fighting the intruders. The news would say it was our only hope : for survival. And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a field day. : Most people still cannot grasp the concept. : : Here is the link to that respected talk show host. This is the entire : transcript, all of what he said. : : http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.gu est.html : : : I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner he : is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the following : questions. : : Do many Americans listen to this? : Are you not afraid when you hear his views? : You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I will : not go so far as that they belive this whacko, or do they? : : I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number : of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was almost : impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person : well, that had been killed by the Americans. : : With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved : as liberators? : Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the Americans a : bit naive? : Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100 years : before Iraq can get over this with the Americans? : Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love his : family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier? : If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country, : including US, very easy to occupy and subdue? : : Hakan : : : : This will give you an idea of why we are so accepting of our governments : lies, Hakan. : : Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to : turn it off and form my own opinion. : If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias. Again, : no problem with this, I just don't agree. Without left we can have no : right. The problem is when they get out of balance, yin and yang. : : Happy Day to all : Ryan : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list :
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
If you haven't seen the summary pie chart on federal incomes and outlays, I suggest checking out page 74 of http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf Bob In a message dated 7/9/2005 1:43:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Paddy,Actually, according to the President's FY2006 budget to Congress, his administration proposed an $18 billion cut from the Dept of Defense budget (compared to FY2005). I haven't finished looking to see if this was just hidden elsewhere (there were increases in "National Defense" in the Dept of Energy and other agencies), plus it doesn't include the "unexpected costs" of invading other countries like Afghanistan or Iraq. It is true that the defense budget amounts 19% of the overall $2.568 TRILLION FY2006 federal budget, but what we really should be asking is what else are they wasting our money on?Also, where is the $210 million from and what is it for? From the FY2006 budget, I see a lot more being put into areas of cleaning up the environment - In the EPA's budget alone there is about $1.5 billion for states to clean up water supplies, $121 million to clean up industrial brownfield sites, $10 million to retrofit school buses to reduce their emissions, $73 million to repair or remove leaking underground storage tanks and, finally $1.2 billion to clean up Superfund sites. That's something like just under $3 billion on cleaning up our environmental messes.I agree that this Administration has been rather relaxed on helping to prevent environment problems, but then can you blame them? Many of the members of this administration are from either the oil or defense industries, two areas that are the worse contributors to enviromnental destruction there ever was. To them, saving the environment means losing money. And it is our fault for putting them in office (well not my fault, I voted Libertarian). Next time let's keep the money-grubbing, wilderness-drilling, nation-conquering, "we don't count civilian casualties" politicians out of office in the next election, and maybe we will have a chance to save the environment (and our own pocketbooks).I encourage you to look at the budget and determine for yourself what they are wasting our money on. Go to http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html to look at the budget.Thanks,Earl Kinsley ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring land back from the dead
Hi Folks I've been reading this webb site for some time now and thank everyone responsible for it. I purchased an 82 Mercedes 300D and make my own biodiesel. Kim mentioned another area of concern There are still many areas where land is cheap. Would you elaborate more where these can be found. I would appreciate it very much. Thank You. Hal Galerneau Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, There are still many areas where land is cheap because it has been burned out by cotton rot, too much corn growing and overgrazing. If you want to get into agriculture, I would suggest that this would be a better place to start than a landfill or service station. I bought this kind of land 13 years ago and I am now able to run 100% grass fed beef and sheep. It takes patience, time and very little money to fix the damage or lots of money and no patience. Life is full of these kind of choices. As for reclaiming land, the story and history of Buchard Gardens in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada makes for interesting reading. Bright Blessings, Kim At 06:03 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: Traditional agriculture is slowly killing the available land, which means more work for the rest of us who want to own land some day. What would be the necessary steps to restore, say, a former landfill site or a former gas station? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring land back from the dead
In the mid-Atlantic area where I live, it's sad to see prime agricultural land being turned into tracts for subdivisions, malls, and McMansions, the latter of which often have acres of lawn that must be cut, fertilized, etc., for no good purpose. Unfortunately the market doesn't capture the long-term value of that land, which may be needed in the future for biofuel production, agricultural production close to urban areas (as food transportation costs increase), etc. We as individuals seem to vote with our dollars for development (and even second homes) rather than investing in the future by purchasing easements for that land. And we as a body politic can't seem to work together through our elected representatives to make long term, rather than short term and short sighted decisions. I don't know the answer. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] the dead lands
Search FRED KIRSCHENMANN of LEOPOLD CENTER for SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Keith Addison wrote: You'll find societies that ate mostly vegetables and not much meat, and others that ate mostly meat and very little vegetables or grain, but none that only ate vegetables and grains and no meat. Again, I don't think that I suggested that anyone else should eat only vegetables and grains and no meat. I recommended reduction of the dependence of meat and dairy in the American culture from current levels that I perceive as excessive. The point is that if you don't produce the gallon of milk you'll be less likely to able to produce the grain sustainably. What principles make this statement a true one? Not at all - less dairy means less grazing livestock, less grazing livestock means less manure and less fertile soil. Without a dairy market as well as a meat market, ley farming becomes much more difficult. But WHY is dairy a necessity for grazing? True, but she's not the only cow on the block, and even depleted, her manure contains a hell of a lot more fertility potential than a bit of wheat straw does. Or a fertiliser bag. Anyway the calf is also producing manure. However, if the milk is going to humans instead of the calf, there is no calf to produce manure. Also, even with the calf in the equation, the calf is growing and using more of those nutrients so ITS manure is of a lesser quality than that of a cow that was not lactating. And we're not using human manure for fertilization. I understand the concept that you propose - that animals are essential to a farms overall soil health but, I really don't understand how dairy products increase the sustainability of agriculture. Maybe the answer is provided in one of the links you've provided but, I'm still reading (and probably will be for quite a while). Doesn't a lactating cow consume more water and food? Isn't that an increase in the competition for resources that you mentioned previous? Frankly, though, if the cow or sheep beneifits my soil which produces more nutritious fruits and vegetables, I can't see how that is really to be considered competition. It sounds more symbiotic to me especially if I am getting wool from a sheep, for instance. For what its worth, I have read a bunch of information from the links that you have provided. They seem to be very valuable. Thanks! I must admit, though, that it is often very difficult to decide who to believe. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hi Hakan and all snip Here is the link to that respected talk show host. This is the entire transcript, all of what he said. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_r ight.guest.html I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner he is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the following questions. Do many Americans listen to this? Are you not afraid when you hear his views? I sure am. You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I will not go so far as that they belive this whacko, or do they? FWIW, Rush Limbaugh is featured every day on American forces radio stations at US military bases, at least in Japan, I suppose elsewhere too. So is Paul Harvey, who Doug just mentioned. I like Todd's term limbaughtomized. Your brain has to be not all present and correct to listen to that stuff and go on thinking all is well and good. IMNSHO. Best Keith I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was almost impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person well, that had been killed by the Americans. With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved as liberators? Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the Americans a bit naive? Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100 years before Iraq can get over this with the Americans? Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love his family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier? If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country, including US, very easy to occupy and subdue? Hakan This will give you an idea of why we are so accepting of our governments lies, Hakan. Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to turn it off and form my own opinion. If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias. Again, no problem with this, I just don't agree. Without left we can have no right. The problem is when they get out of balance, yin and yang. Happy Day to all Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh
Hi Doug Hakan, Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans, enough that we have the president and legislator we have today. Another broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarks by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biological weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar. Pretty much, but there's this anyway: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2569 Action Alert Paul Harvey's Tribute to Slavery, Nukes, Genocide Hateful rant shows Disney's double standard on speech July 1, 2005 FAIR-L Fairness Accuracy In Reporting Media analysis, critiques and activism Visit http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archive s/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html to read his remarks. Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales. Harvey has been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good salesmen. He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged to substantially affect sales. He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen to his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time. Luck of the draw that I heard that program that I did. There are good people in America, Most? I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allows them enough time to do so. I think maybe all of us are hoping that very fervently. All best Keith Doug - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid : : Ryan, : : At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: : snip : : What is the probability that : they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
