Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Kirk McLoren]

And when you consider the heat of compression is still in the cycle of a gas turbine you see the problem with using compressed gas. The refrigeration at expansion has to be input from the environment or you see a loss on both ends.
 
Kirk[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes. The most efficient means seems to be using air compressed by windgenerated electricity to replace the air that would otherwise have to becompressed in a gas turbine. the compressor section of a gas turbineapparently uses roughly half the energy generated by the hot sectionturbine.If you do a search on "compressed air energy storage" you will findmention of a few such systems built or building.Doug WoodardSt. Catharines, OntarioOn Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Michael Redler wrote:> The other thread [Solar panals or wind] is discussing the viability of an air car and made me wonder of excess wind energy can be stored as compressed air.>> Mike___Biofuel mailing
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[dwoodard]

Yes. The most efficient means seems to be using air compressed by wind
generated electricity to replace the air that would otherwise have to be
compressed in a gas turbine. the compressor section of a gas turbine
apparently uses roughly half the energy generated by the hot section
turbine.

If you do a search on "compressed air energy storage" you will find
mention of a few such systems built or building.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario


On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Michael Redler wrote:

> The other thread [Solar panals or wind] is discussing the viability of an air 
> car and made me wonder of excess wind energy can be stored as compressed air.
>
> Mike

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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Hakan Falk]

Jim,

Lead-acid batteries 80% efficiency (real) and I think that other 
types have a slightly better efficiency. This is however not the main 
point for them, life and maintenance are.

Hakan

At 18:28 31/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hi all
>
>You don't need to compress the hydrogen, there are electrolisers 
>which work a 200 bar (3000 psi, yes three thousand psi) and are 
>being used in the UK to produce hydrogen from excess wind genaration 
>and feed it through a fuel cell in calm periods, to produce electricity.
>
>The system is being trialed on the island of Unst 
>www.unst.org situated between the atlantic and 
>the north sea some 150 miles off the north coast of Scotland.
>
>All you need extra is a heavy (and I mean heavy) pressure casing 
>electroliser and a pump that can supply metered amounts of water at 
>that pressure.
>
>Cheap it aint, but efficient it is (85% claimed)
>
>
>Try www.pureh2.co.uk for more details on 
>the project and links for the components.
>
>Jim Smith
>_



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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Kirk McLoren]

Compressing air has an enormous loss due to heating. THe heat is soon lost and the attendant energy with it. If you could compress it without raising its temperature then it would resemble water energy stored in a reservoir on a hill.
 
KirkTarynToo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The storage of energy by lifting water has a long and successful history. I think it's common for hydropower companies to use excess or off-peak power to push water up into the reservoir, increasing head pressure for peak demands. Hmmm... kinda stinks of perpetual motion eh?Windmills have also been used to lift water to millponds. I suppose the advantage is torque conversion as well as time shifting.Tarynornae.comOn Aug 31, 2005, at 2:07 PM, Joe Street wrote:> Yes I have also heard of using a wind turbine to turn an air compressor> and store energy in compressed air. I don't know about the efficiency> though.>> Joe>> Brian Rodgers wrote:>>> A friend who coincidentally thinks I am a nut job, said he made a>> system back in the 'old days' in which a small water
 turbine powered>> by a small stream pumped water into a storage tank as well as generate>> electricity. Somehow this system was augmented with a small wind>> generator. He said that when the wind wasn't blowing water was>> released from the tank through the turbine turning the generator>> generating electricity. Sorry my brain is not completely clear on the>> details of these two systems. More than likely he was talking two>> different systems. The point that I thought was notable is that he used a water tank to>> store energy. Filling the tank when energy was there, either through>> solar, wind or hydraulic.>> Brian ___>> Biofuel mailing list>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ >>
 biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages):>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ > biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>___Biofuel mailing
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[des]

Brian Rodgers wrote:

>A friend who coincidentally thinks I am a nut job, said he made a
>system back in the 'old days' in which a small water turbine powered
>by a small stream pumped water into a storage tank as well as generate
>electricity.  Somehow this system was augmented with a small wind
>generator. He said that when the wind wasn't blowing water was
>released from the tank through the turbine turning the generator
>generating electricity. Sorry my brain is not completely clear on the
>details of these two systems. More than likely he was talking two
>different systems.
>
>The point that I thought was notable is that he used a water tank to
>store energy. Filling the tank when energy was there, either through
>solar, wind or hydraulic.
>Brian
>
>  
>
With an open top, added rain could bring up the efficiency ratios!  
(Have to cover it when the sun is trying to evaporate it though...  Oh well)

doug swanson

-- 
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Michael Redler]

The other thread [Solar panals or wind] is discussing the viability of an air car and made me wonder of excess wind energy can be stored as compressed air.
 
Mikerobert luis rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> Hi all> > You don't need to compress the hydrogen, there are electrolisers which > work a 200 bar (3000 psi, yes three thousand psi) and are being used in > the UK to produce hydrogen from excess wind genaration and feed it > through a fuel cell in calm periods, to produce electricity.But you'll never be able to buy one. Companies that produce electrolyzers remain deeply concerned about liability. Hydrogen is hard to store, and viable, safe options (like hydrides) are expensive. Nonetheless, a home built, low pressure electrolyzer and a hydride storage system is considerably cheaper and more easily purchased than a high pressure electrolyzer.I used to find hydrogen interesting . . .___
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Kirk McLoren]

Take a look at CaO
It is made by heating CaCO3
 
In sailing ship days fires were started when barrels of CaO got wet.
 
KirkMichael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



"I guess you will say the energy can be stored in the hydrogen but compressing hydrogen is a wee bit of a problem to say the least and in any case the compressor is horribly inneficient."
 
One alternative might be to simplify HOD (hydrogen on demand) so one can make it at home.
 
I'm not a chemist. So, I have no idea how difficult this might be but, can one (for example) make sodium hydroxide and combine it with water for steam power when needed?
 
...just thinking out loud.
 
Mike
Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jeromie Reeves wrote:>If your Eco-village has plenty of wind generators then more 
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[TarynToo]

The storage of energy by lifting water has a long and successful  
history. I think it's common for hydropower companies to use excess or  
off-peak power to push water up into the reservoir, increasing head  
pressure for peak demands. Hmmm... kinda stinks of perpetual motion eh?

Windmills have also been used to lift water to millponds. I suppose the  
advantage is torque conversion as well as time shifting.

Taryn
ornae.com

On Aug 31, 2005, at 2:07 PM, Joe Street wrote:

> Yes I have also heard of using a wind turbine to turn an air compressor
> and store energy in compressed air.  I don't know about the efficiency
> though.
>
> Joe
>
> Brian Rodgers wrote:
>
>> A friend who coincidentally thinks I am a nut job, said he made a
>> system back in the 'old days' in which a small water turbine powered
>> by a small stream pumped water into a storage tank as well as generate
>> electricity.  Somehow this system was augmented with a small wind
>> generator. He said that when the wind wasn't blowing water was
>> released from the tank through the turbine turning the generator
>> generating electricity. Sorry my brain is not completely clear on the
>> details of these two systems. More than likely he was talking two
>> different systems.
>>
>> The point that I thought was notable is that he used a water tank to
>> store energy. Filling the tank when energy was there, either through
>> solar, wind or hydraulic.
>> Brian
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[J and S Out West]

I really like the idea of flywheels as opposed to batteries for wind/solar storage, I'm suprised no one has mentioned them yet.
Jerry
 
-=original message=-
From: Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteriesTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1""I guess you will say the energy can be stored in the hydrogen but compressing hydrogen is a wee bit of a problem to say the least and in any case the compressor is horribly inneficient." One alternative might be
 to simplify HOD (hydrogen on demand) so one can make it at home. I'm not a chemist. So, I have no idea how difficult this might be but, can one (for example) make sodium hydroxide and combine it with water for steam power when needed? ...just thinking out loud. MikeJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Jeromie Reeves wrote:>If your Eco-village has plenty of wind generators then more >then likely there will be a surplus of electricity making a>electrolyzer a good idea. >Why is this so? I think you are saying to use wind generated electricity to produce hydrogen and then use hydrogen to produce electricity?? I guess you will say the energy can be stored in the hydrogen but compressing hydrogen is a wee bit
 of a problem to say the least and in any case the compressor is horribly inneficient. Chemical batteries are not ideal but the whole energy cycle involves a lot less loss than what you are proposing.> I >have been building vertical axis wind turbines lately (small ones) and>they impress me with there ability to generate torque and low wind speed >operation.> >I am very interested in exploring what can be done by the home builder in this area. Do you have a web page or archive of information you can share on this?Joe
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[robert luis rabello]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi all
>  
> You don't need to compress the hydrogen, there are electrolisers which 
> work a 200 bar (3000 psi, yes three thousand psi) and are being used in 
> the UK to produce hydrogen from excess wind genaration and feed it 
> through a fuel cell in calm periods, to produce electricity.

But you'll never be able to buy one.  Companies that produce 
electrolyzers remain deeply concerned about liability.  Hydrogen is 
hard to store, and viable, safe options (like hydrides) are expensive. 
  Nonetheless, a home built, low pressure electrolyzer and a hydride 
storage system is considerably cheaper and more easily purchased than 
a high pressure electrolyzer.

I used to find hydrogen interesting . . .

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Jeromie Reeves]

Joe Street wrote:

>Jeromie Reeves wrote:
>
>  
>
>>If your Eco-village has plenty of wind generators then more 
>>then likely there will be a surplus of electricity making a
>>electrolyzer a good idea. 
>>
>>
>>
>Why is this so?  I think you are saying to use wind generated 
>electricity to produce hydrogen and then use hydrogen to produce 
>electricity??  I guess you will say the energy can be stored in the 
>hydrogen but compressing hydrogen is a wee bit of a problem to say the 
>least and in any case the compressor is horribly inneficient.  Chemical 
>batteries are not ideal but the whole energy cycle involves a lot less 
>loss than what you are proposing.
>  
>
I am not worried about efficientcy because I am basing this off of 
"wasted" electricity from a wind turbine
that has already filled its primary roll. I also assume that this is a 
setting where wind is plentiful enough to
make building more generators worth while. Also I am more interested in 
a clean, easy storage system that
can fill more then one roll.

>  
>
>>I 
>>have been building vertical axis wind turbines lately (small ones) and
>>they impress me with there ability to generate torque and low wind speed 
>>operation.
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>I am very interested in exploring what can be done by the home builder 
>in this area.  Do you have a web page or archive of information you can 
>share on this?
>  
>
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/darrieus_type.htm
http://www.ecowindenergy.com/index.html
http://www.solwind.co.nz/

Google for vwat, darrieus, or savonius for much more information. I made 
a small 4 arm 4ft one that worked
very well for being built by me =)

Jeromie

>Joe
>
>
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>
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Joe Street]

Yes I have also heard of using a wind turbine to turn an air compressor 
and store energy in compressed air.  I don't know about the efficiency 
though.

Joe

Brian Rodgers wrote:

>A friend who coincidentally thinks I am a nut job, said he made a
>system back in the 'old days' in which a small water turbine powered
>by a small stream pumped water into a storage tank as well as generate
>electricity.  Somehow this system was augmented with a small wind
>generator. He said that when the wind wasn't blowing water was
>released from the tank through the turbine turning the generator
>generating electricity. Sorry my brain is not completely clear on the
>details of these two systems. More than likely he was talking two
>different systems.
>
>The point that I thought was notable is that he used a water tank to
>store energy. Filling the tank when energy was there, either through
>solar, wind or hydraulic.
>Brian
>
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>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Shetlandbiofuels]

Hi all
 
You don't need to compress the hydrogen, there are electrolisers which work 
a 200 bar (3000 psi, yes three thousand psi) and are being used in the UK 
to produce hydrogen from excess wind genaration and feed it through a fuel cell 
in calm periods, to produce electricity.
 

The system is being trialed on the island of Unst www.unst.org situated between the atlantic and 
the north sea some 150 miles off the north coast of Scotland.
 
All you need extra is a heavy (and I mean heavy) pressure casing 
electroliser and a pump that can supply metered amounts of water at that 
pressure.
 
Cheap it aint, but efficient it is (85% claimed)
 
 
Try www.pureh2.co.uk for more details 
on the project and links for the components.
 
Jim Smith
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Brian Rodgers]

A friend who coincidentally thinks I am a nut job, said he made a
system back in the 'old days' in which a small water turbine powered
by a small stream pumped water into a storage tank as well as generate
electricity.  Somehow this system was augmented with a small wind
generator. He said that when the wind wasn't blowing water was
released from the tank through the turbine turning the generator
generating electricity. Sorry my brain is not completely clear on the
details of these two systems. More than likely he was talking two
different systems.

The point that I thought was notable is that he used a water tank to
store energy. Filling the tank when energy was there, either through
solar, wind or hydraulic.
Brian

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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Michael Redler]

"I guess you will say the energy can be stored in the hydrogen but compressing hydrogen is a wee bit of a problem to say the least and in any case the compressor is horribly inneficient."
 
One alternative might be to simplify HOD (hydrogen on demand) so one can make it at home.
 
I'm not a chemist. So, I have no idea how difficult this might be but, can one (for example) make sodium hydroxide and combine it with water for steam power when needed?
 
...just thinking out loud.
 
Mike
Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jeromie Reeves wrote:>If your Eco-village has plenty of wind generators then more >then likely there will be a surplus of electricity making a>electrolyzer a good idea. >Why is this so? I think you are saying to use wind generated electricity to produce hydrogen and then use hydrogen to produce electricity?? I guess you will say the energy can be stored in the hydrogen but compressing hydrogen is a wee bit of a problem to say the least and in any case the compressor is horribly inneficient. Chemical batteries are not ideal but the whole energy cycle involves a lot less loss than what you are proposing.> I >have been building vertical axis wind turbines lately (small ones) and>they impress me with there ability to generate torque and low wind speed >operation.> >I am
 very interested in exploring what can be done by the home builder in this area. Do you have a web page or archive of information you can share on this?Joe___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Joe Street]

Jeromie Reeves wrote:

>If your Eco-village has plenty of wind generators then more 
>then likely there will be a surplus of electricity making a
>electrolyzer a good idea. 
>
Why is this so?  I think you are saying to use wind generated 
electricity to produce hydrogen and then use hydrogen to produce 
electricity??  I guess you will say the energy can be stored in the 
hydrogen but compressing hydrogen is a wee bit of a problem to say the 
least and in any case the compressor is horribly inneficient.  Chemical 
batteries are not ideal but the whole energy cycle involves a lot less 
loss than what you are proposing.

> I 
>have been building vertical axis wind turbines lately (small ones) and
>they impress me with there ability to generate torque and low wind speed 
>operation.
>  
>
I am very interested in exploring what can be done by the home builder 
in this area.  Do you have a web page or archive of information you can 
share on this?

Joe


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Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Jeromie Reeves]

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/fuelcells/basics.html
^ good overview and links
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/
^ Much more information
http://www.h2fuelcells.org/
^ Place to buy fuel cells. Get ready to drop serious cash for anything 
that could run a home.
   My thoughts were to go with a classic monster battery system and 
use one of the lower
   wattage units to help keep the system charged when wind/solar are 
not available.
http://www.fieldlines.com/
^ Great DIY info for wind generators

I have much more on this but it is currently a very unorganized mess of 
links. These are the sites I use most in finding more information.
It would be nice to find a simple fuel cell design that could be built 
by the do-it-yourself group (if there is one, I have not found it). I
have plans for a few electrolyzers. I am not sure how hard it would be 
to setup over all. A separator (electrolyzer, bio mass) could be
easy enough. If your Eco-village has plenty of wind generators then more 
then likely there will be a surplus of electricity making a
electrolyzer a good idea. Bio-mass hydrogen is (as far as I know) still 
very new and not ready for use. All other hydrogen production
methods I know of make use of gases like methane. This makes it hard for 
reasonable long term production (unless you run or live by
a pig farm). I do not know where your village is at but I suggest a 
thick walled stone building or a underground home if you are building
a new home. I would also go with wind if the site is good for such. I 
have been building vertical axis wind turbines lately (small ones) and
they impress me with there ability to generate torque and low wind speed 
operation.

Jeromie

Stephan van Wyk wrote:

>Hi Jeromie,
>Do your have more info on this, I love the idea. Maybe a good web link.
>Would a system like this be hard to set up? and materials / separator?
>The reason I ask is that my family and I will be moving to an eco-village
>next year. We are required to put in one alternative form of energy source
>and I'd like to study your idea and look at incorporating it into my design
>when building the house...
>
>Stephan van Wyk (South Africa)
>
>[taken from: Solar panals or wind]
>
>Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have
>a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind
>to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only
>use the hPEM when power beyond the wind
>source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid.
>
>Jeromie
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>  
>


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[Biofuel] Alternative batteries

[Stephan van Wyk]

Hi Jeromie,
Do your have more info on this, I love the idea. Maybe a good web link.
Would a system like this be hard to set up? and materials / separator?
The reason I ask is that my family and I will be moving to an eco-village
next year. We are required to put in one alternative form of energy source
and I'd like to study your idea and look at incorporating it into my design
when building the house...

Stephan van Wyk (South Africa)

[taken from: Solar panals or wind]

Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have
a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind
to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only
use the hPEM when power beyond the wind
source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid.

Jeromie



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