RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Hi Keith and Peggy ; I am working my way through these links, and it is perfect timing. I truely was starting to assemble the materials to make the Charles 803 from JtF web site. I didn't order the plansm but I could do it from the web site. I always wondered about that right angle elbow at the bottom. Never did make much sense to me. My plan was to build a low cost electronic sensor instead of his tube sensor. I didn't yet know the price for his. Ouch! Easy to do with solid state temp sensor and solenoid valve, but needs AC or DC power to work. I definately want automatic control. I am on email overload right now, with agitation, pressurization, ethanol, methanol, temp sensor. Now I have more details on the land. Along the south side are some small mountains, public land, usable and perfect for a wind farm. Looking into that. Then I don't want to just bulldoze clear trees and grass (horror!). Looking into graceful transition methods. JtF pig bulldozer clearing looks interesting. Does this really work Keith? Peggy, lots of good info in your last post. I guess all I had to do was ask, right? I appreciate it, and I'm sure a lot of list member do also. A few hundred thousand is not achievable right now, but step by step. Best Regards to All, Peter G, Thailand It did not go well, to say the least. You'll find most of the gory details at these links: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1300/ 2000-11-20 Charles 803 fuel ethanol still http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1317/ 2000-11-21 Re: Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12169/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/12168/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design - Still help http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12152/ 2002-03-08 Re: Warren Still Design This is dealt with in this post: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 Some of the links in that post have since changed. Here are the new links: Alcohol Fuel, Can You Make Your Own?, by Ray Hill, from Popular Science, January 1981: http://www.green-trust.org/alcohol_.pdf Mike Nixon http://www.amphora-society.com/ The Amphora Society Mike Nixon's comment on the Tallgrass still: http://www.green-trust.org/PopScienceArticleRebuttal.htm ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Hi Keith and Peggy ; I am working my way through these links, and it is perfect timing. I truely was starting to assemble the materials to make the Charles 803 from JtF web site. Huh? WHERE on the JtF web site did you find any mention of Mr Warren and the Charles 803 still? It was all removed four years ago, and none too soon. Please make sure of just which website you're talking about, confirm that it ISN'T the Journey to Forever web site, and no need to tell us which one it is. Thankyou. There are plenty of still plans at the JtF site. Check out Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#ME And more to come. I didn't order the plansm but I could do it from the web site. I always wondered about that right angle elbow at the bottom. Never did make much sense to me. My plan was to build a low cost electronic sensor instead of his tube sensor. I didn't yet know the price for his. Ouch! Easy to do with solid state temp sensor and solenoid valve, but needs AC or DC power to work. I definately want automatic control. I am on email overload right now, with agitation, pressurization, ethanol, methanol, temp sensor. Now I have more details on the land. Along the south side are some small mountains, public land, usable and perfect for a wind farm. Looking into that. Then I don't want to just bulldoze clear trees and grass (horror!). Looking into graceful transition methods. JtF pig bulldozer clearing looks interesting. Does this really work Keith? Sure. As long as you don't go and put rings in their noses. I'm halfway through scanning a book on exactly how to do it, the only one there is AFAIK, and long out of print. Best Keith Peggy, lots of good info in your last post. I guess all I had to do was ask, right? I appreciate it, and I'm sure a lot of list member do also. A few hundred thousand is not achievable right now, but step by step. Best Regards to All, Peter G, Thailand It did not go well, to say the least. You'll find most of the gory details at these links: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1300/ 2000-11-20 Charles 803 fuel ethanol still http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1317/ 2000-11-21 Re: Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12169/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/12168/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design - Still help http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12152/ 2002-03-08 Re: Warren Still Design This is dealt with in this post: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 Some of the links in that post have since changed. Here are the new links: Alcohol Fuel, Can You Make Your Own?, by Ray Hill, from Popular Science, January 1981: http://www.green-trust.org/alcohol_.pdf Mike Nixon http://www.amphora-society.com/ The Amphora Society Mike Nixon's comment on the Tallgrass still: http://www.green-trust.org/PopScienceArticleRebuttal.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Any input will help. Ron Keith Addison wrote: Hello Peter Hi Keith and Peggy ; I am working my way through these links, and it is perfect timing. I truely was starting to assemble the materials to make the Charles 803 from JtF web site. Huh? WHERE on the JtF web site did you find any mention of Mr Warren and the Charles 803 still? It was all removed four years ago, and none too soon. Please make sure of just which website you're talking about, confirm that it ISN'T the Journey to Forever web site, and no need to tell us which one it is. Thankyou. There are plenty of still plans at the JtF site. Check out Mother Earth Alcohol Fuel: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#ME And more to come. I didn't order the plansm but I could do it from the web site. I always wondered about that right angle elbow at the bottom. Never did make much sense to me. My plan was to build a low cost electronic sensor instead of his tube sensor. I didn't yet know the price for his. Ouch! Easy to do with solid state temp sensor and solenoid valve, but needs AC or DC power to work. I definately want automatic control. I am on email overload right now, with agitation, pressurization, ethanol, methanol, temp sensor. Now I have more details on the land. Along the south side are some small mountains, public land, usable and perfect for a wind farm. Looking into that. Then I don't want to just bulldoze clear trees and grass (horror!). Looking into graceful transition methods. JtF pig bulldozer clearing looks interesting. Does this really work Keith? Sure. As long as you don't go and put rings in their noses. I'm halfway through scanning a book on exactly how to do it, the only one there is AFAIK, and long out of print. Best Keith Peggy, lots of good info in your last post. I guess all I had to do was ask, right? I appreciate it, and I'm sure a lot of list member do also. A few hundred thousand is not achievable right now, but step by step. Best Regards to All, Peter G, Thailand It did not go well, to say the least. You'll find most of the gory details at these links: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1300/ 2000-11-20 Charles 803 fuel ethanol still http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1317/ 2000-11-21 Re: Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12169/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/12168/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design - Still help http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12152/ 2002-03-08 Re: Warren Still Design This is dealt with in this post: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 Some of the links in that post have since changed. Here are the new links: Alcohol Fuel, Can You Make Your Own?, by Ray Hill, from Popular Science, January 1981: http://www.green-trust.org/alcohol_.pdf Mike Nixon http://www.amphora-society.com/ The Amphora Society Mike Nixon's comment on the Tallgrass still: http://www.green-trust.org/PopScienceArticleRebuttal.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol update
I am new around here but I am looking for info on methanol production. Any input will help. Ron I suggest you spend some time, or perhaps quite a lot of time, browsing the list archives, there's a lot to be found there. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Best wishes Keith Keith Addison wrote: Hello Peter Hi Keith and Peggy ; I am working my way through these links, and it is perfect timing. I truely was starting to assemble the materials to make the Charles 803 from JtF web site. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Hi Keith ; Keith wrote: Please make sure of just which website you're talking about, confirm that it ISN'T the Journey to Forever web site, and no need to tell us which one it is. Opps. So sorry about that. You are right. It was another web page which I had saved to my hard drive, so I didn't actually type the URL each time I referred to it. It was NOT JtF! Keith wrote: Sure. As long as you don't go and put rings in their noses. I'm halfway through scanning a book on exactly how to do it, the only one there is AFAIK, and long out of print. Looking forward to reading it. (What is AFAIK?) Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol update
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exactAcronym=AFAIKFind=Find Luc - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:57 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update Hi Keith ; Keith wrote: Please make sure of just which website you're talking about, confirm that it ISN'T the Journey to Forever web site, and no need to tell us which one it is. Opps. So sorry about that. You are right. It was another web page which I had saved to my hard drive, so I didn't actually type the URL each time I referred to it. It was NOT JtF! Keith wrote: Sure. As long as you don't go and put rings in their noses. I'm halfway through scanning a book on exactly how to do it, the only one there is AFAIK, and long out of print. Looking forward to reading it. (What is AFAIK?) Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Hi Keith ; Keith wrote: Please make sure of just which website you're talking about, confirm that it ISN'T the Journey to Forever web site, and no need to tell us which one it is. Opps. So sorry about that. You are right. It was another web page which I had saved to my hard drive, so I didn't actually type the URL each time I referred to it. It was NOT JtF! Great, thanks. Keith wrote: Sure. As long as you don't go and put rings in their noses. I'm halfway through scanning a book on exactly how to do it, the only one there is AFAIK, and long out of print. Looking forward to reading it. Scanning goes but slowly - there are several books in the process of being scanned, but it takes time: scanning, graphics, proofread, format tables etc, paging, upload. There are scores of books in the queue. (What is AFAIK?) Luc beat me to it. :-) I don't like acronyms as a writer and editor, but Net acronyms are useful, and they're so widely used you can't fight it anyway. This is a great dictionary, while we're at it: http://people.kldp.org/~eunjea/jargon/ The Jargon Dictionary Regards Keith Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update Peter: Hi Peggy, Thanks for your post. I am tip-toeing here a little because I would never say I know as much as you about the ethanol/methanol debate. When someone knows more than me, my tendency is usually to shut up and listen. Peggy: I can send a copy of a report that may interest you in making your decision on ethanol production: Sweet Sorghum for a Piedmont Ethanol Industry by Glen C. Rains, John S. Cundiff, and Gregory E. Welbaum. If you would like more info, just e-mail me back. Peter: Because I fully and absolutely intend to build a still and distill ethanol, I have studied the ethanol conversion process. Peggy: We build small distilleries that are stand-alone setups designed to go into third world countries with no infrastructure. These are places where they still carry wood and haul water. The unreacted biomass (lignins) is burned to make steam, which powers a turbine to make the electricity for the plant (and a little excess) and the spent steam from the turbine heats the cooking stages and distills the ethanol. We use total biomass, not just the starch and soluble sugar fractions. Crops are good sources of biomass, but do not overlook the use of cellulosic waste that cities are currently putting in landfills. Nuisance vegetation is another good free source of ethanol. Peter: Ethanol from fruit or cane juices seems very attractive. In Cambodia, a liter of 75% ethanol sells for about $2. They use it to spike drinks. They distill it from fermented rice mash. I have personally seen the crude stills that they use. It is fantastic that they could make alcohol at all. Their production was maybe 50 liters per day. They used the cheapest fuel they could find for distillation : sawdust for $.01 per kg. snip As a fuel substitute, where the price needs to be more like $.50 per liter, not so easy to make money. But I intend to try. Peggy: We are working with the Rio Grande Valley Sugar Growers to assure that the farmers always get their best prices on sugar cane. That is what coalitions and cooperatives are all about. If the farmer can get the best price selling for sugar production, then that is what they do. However, there are times when the sugar market is soft and we can pay more for the full harvest (except for the root structure, corm, and a small portion of the stalk that goes back into the ground as a soil nutrient). The fuel ethanol production capacity for the whole plant (upper) is phenomenal! The stalk is not burned in the field as with sugar production and we anticipate a total processing cost of about $.30 a gallon. Peter: From my understanding, ethanol from biomass is a different story. The two most popular ways to hydrolize biomass are acid and enzymatic hydrolysis. Many enzymes are proprietary and most are not easy to make on site. Then you have the problem of converting pentose sugars. If you don't do it, yields are low. If you do it, you need exotic or genetically modified organisms. Peggy: Yes, it is a shame that the NREL and Canada are controlling the engineered organisms that can change our nation. At least they are finally releasing them to the large operations because the large operations are willing to pay the cost for an abundance of the product. They do not seem to be interested in small growers at this time and maybe that can change. But in evaluating who the corporate entities are that are buying in, it looks like it could be a squeeze play. And although I do not lean toward government interference, instead relying on individual's innate abilities to accomplish goals independently, this could be a place where government could step in and make allowances for the small producer to have access to equal opportunity based on production capacity--for the good of the world. Also, because a portion of the government (NREL) has actively participated in development of the process, they should be vested in the public interest. (Ha!) However, you cannot patent nature and nature holds many secrets that an experienced biochemist can take advantage of. Our associates are set up with microbiology labs and starter cultures straight from nature. It's a part of our package. Furthermore, we have many different foreign contacts that we will develop into associates pending their viability. Working with a person in a foreign country is tricky and does become a bit more expensive because we are requesting that one of their local attorneys solidify our patent agreement in that country (International patent rights)--and heaven's knows what that can involve. When a production facility is ready to upgrade, we buy back the smaller production unit unless it is used in tandem with the larger unit or re-located within the scope of our associate's production capabilities. Phillip: Then we have another economic problem. You are in business to make money (aren't we all?). A small operator like me could never produce enough
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
I would like to hear about your product and its specifications. Please email me more info. Also, tell me if you have a website. Jonathan From: Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 07:29:23 -0500 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update Peter: Hi Peggy, Thanks for your post. I am tip-toeing here a little because I would never say I know as much as you about the ethanol/methanol debate. When someone knows more than me, my tendency is usually to shut up and listen. Peggy: I can send a copy of a report that may interest you in making your decision on ethanol production: Sweet Sorghum for a Piedmont Ethanol Industry by Glen C. Rains, John S. Cundiff, and Gregory E. Welbaum. If you would like more info, just e-mail me back. Peter: Because I fully and absolutely intend to build a still and distill ethanol, I have studied the ethanol conversion process. Peggy: We build small distilleries that are stand-alone setups designed to go into third world countries with no infrastructure. These are places where they still carry wood and haul water. The unreacted biomass (lignins) is burned to make steam, which powers a turbine to make the electricity for the plant (and a little excess) and the spent steam from the turbine heats the cooking stages and distills the ethanol. We use total biomass, not just the starch and soluble sugar fractions. Crops are good sources of biomass, but do not overlook the use of cellulosic waste that cities are currently putting in landfills. Nuisance vegetation is another good free source of ethanol. Peter: Ethanol from fruit or cane juices seems very attractive. In Cambodia, a liter of 75% ethanol sells for about $2. They use it to spike drinks. They distill it from fermented rice mash. I have personally seen the crude stills that they use. It is fantastic that they could make alcohol at all. Their production was maybe 50 liters per day. They used the cheapest fuel they could find for distillation : sawdust for $.01 per kg. snip As a fuel substitute, where the price needs to be more like $.50 per liter, not so easy to make money. But I intend to try. Peggy: We are working with the Rio Grande Valley Sugar Growers to assure that the farmers always get their best prices on sugar cane. That is what coalitions and cooperatives are all about. If the farmer can get the best price selling for sugar production, then that is what they do. However, there are times when the sugar market is soft and we can pay more for the full harvest (except for the root structure, corm, and a small portion of the stalk that goes back into the ground as a soil nutrient). The fuel ethanol production capacity for the whole plant (upper) is phenomenal! The stalk is not burned in the field as with sugar production and we anticipate a total processing cost of about $.30 a gallon. Peter: From my understanding, ethanol from biomass is a different story. The two most popular ways to hydrolize biomass are acid and enzymatic hydrolysis. Many enzymes are proprietary and most are not easy to make on site. Then you have the problem of converting pentose sugars. If you don't do it, yields are low. If you do it, you need exotic or genetically modified organisms. Peggy: Yes, it is a shame that the NREL and Canada are controlling the engineered organisms that can change our nation. At least they are finally releasing them to the large operations because the large operations are willing to pay the cost for an abundance of the product. They do not seem to be interested in small growers at this time and maybe that can change. But in evaluating who the corporate entities are that are buying in, it looks like it could be a squeeze play. And although I do not lean toward government interference, instead relying on individual's innate abilities to accomplish goals independently, this could be a place where government could step in and make allowances for the small producer to have access to equal opportunity based on production capacity--for the good of the world. Also, because a portion of the government (NREL) has actively participated in development of the process, they should be vested in the public interest. (Ha!) However, you cannot patent nature and nature holds many secrets that an experienced biochemist can take advantage of. Our associates are set up with microbiology labs and starter cultures straight from nature. It's a part of our package. Furthermore, we have many different foreign contacts that we will develop into associates pending their viability. Working with a person in a foreign country is tricky and does become a bit more expensive because we are requesting that one of their local attorneys solidify our patent agreement in that country (International patent rights)--and heaven's knows what that can involve. When a production facility is ready to upgrade, we buy back the smaller
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
snip If you want to experiment with a backyard still, go to Robert Warren's site http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id36.html and buy his still plans. I'd recommend not doing that - go anywhere else but! We know about Robert Warren and his still. In 1999 friends in Hong Kong introduced us to Mr Warren, who'd spent a few months there previously working on a PV project. When we wrote to him he was living in Florida, short of a job, running out of money, hadn't done any work on fuel ethanol for many years and was about to unearth his long-neglected still from the bottom of a closet to sell it at a garage sale. So we bought it from him, along with some books and docs on fuel ethanol, and paid for them to be airfreighted to us in Hong Kong. This was a future investment for us, we weren't then in a position to start brewing ethanol, but we were making biodiesel and not very long after that we started the Biofuel list, of which Mr Warren was an early member. Him and his still were featured at the Journey to Forever website and plans for building the still were available from him. He used the Biofuel list as a promotional platform. It did not go well, to say the least. You'll find most of the gory details at these links: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1300/ 2000-11-20 Charles 803 fuel ethanol still http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1317/ 2000-11-21 Re: Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12169/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/12168/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design - Still help http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12152/ 2002-03-08 Re: Warren Still Design In brief: The Charles 803 still will not work as claimed: instead of 5-7 gal/hour of 180-190 proof first time every time, it will not give you more than 2-3 gal/hour of probably not much better than 160 proof. Serious questions were raised about its safety - and Mr Warren had cut all the original safety warnings from his instructions. Mr Warren kept increasing the price of his still plans, for no known reason, and especially the price of the auto temperature control valve, though he'd said he would be looking for cheaper suppliers of the valve. He also refused to divulge who these suppliers were or where the valve could be obtained. When we finally found this out it turned out he was charging double the retail price. Mr Warren had also altered the original instructions to conceal the fact that using the still didn't even require the valve - it was considered something of a luxury. The still plans themselves were not very clear - not sufficient for even a handy person to build the still from. Mr Warren's building and operating instructions that came with the plans were extremely confused. The List of materials included parts that weren't needed and didn't include parts that were needed, there were many errors and omissions - it was an over-long, rambling, chaotic hodge-podge. Of the 60 people we knew of who'd bought plans from Mr Warren, most of them list members, only ONE eventually emerged who'd managed to build the thing, and that because he was an experienced plumber and AC engineer. He found it severely wanting in performance. He later scrapped it and bastardised some of the parts to build a completely different design of still. We kept having problems with people who'd paid for the plans and hadn't received them, and our interceding with Mr Warren on their behalf didn't always have the desired effect. This continued happening for three years after Mr Warren left the list at the end of 2000 and we'd removed all mention of him and his still from our website. It emerged that the story Mr Warren had posted about how the still came to be designed, by him and some friends, including Pete Charles, during the oil price spike in 1980, was questionable. The so-called Charles 803 still is a direct copy of an earlier still designed by the Tallgrass Research Institute. This could have serious implications, as, though the Tallgrass Research Institute closed in 1983 following the death of one of the co-founders, the other co-founder restarted it in 2001 and republished their manual, including the original designs. This is dealt with in this post: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 Some of the links in that post have since changed. Here are the new links: Alcohol Fuel, Can You Make Your Own?, by Ray Hill, from Popular Science, January 1981: http://www.green-trust.org/alcohol_.pdf Mike Nixon http://www.amphora-society.com/ The Amphora Society Mike Nixon's comment on the Tallgrass still: http://www.green-trust.org/PopScienceArticleRebuttal.htm We have no contact with Mr Warren now, other than that every now and then someone writes to us to tell us that he was lifted part
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Wow!!! What an earful!!! I will be careful to watch out for what all these implications could involve. One of my neighbors recently built the still from the plans supplied by Robert with no construction or operation problems and is operating it successfully. Fortunately, we have other applications and operate without a current involvement. Thank you for your message. We will consider your message information and discuss among ourselves many of the points you have brought to light. Best regards, Peggy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 10:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update Hello Peggy snip If you want to experiment with a backyard still, go to Robert Warren's site http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id36.html and buy his still plans. I'd recommend not doing that - go anywhere else but! We know about Robert Warren and his still. In 1999 friends in Hong Kong introduced us to Mr Warren, who'd spent a few months there previously working on a PV project. When we wrote to him he was living in Florida, short of a job, running out of money, hadn't done any work on fuel ethanol for many years and was about to unearth his long-neglected still from the bottom of a closet to sell it at a garage sale. So we bought it from him, along with some books and docs on fuel ethanol, and paid for them to be airfreighted to us in Hong Kong. This was a future investment for us, we weren't then in a position to start brewing ethanol, but we were making biodiesel and not very long after that we started the Biofuel list, of which Mr Warren was an early member. Him and his still were featured at the Journey to Forever website and plans for building the still were available from him. He used the Biofuel list as a promotional platform. It did not go well, to say the least. You'll find most of the gory details at these links: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1300/ 2000-11-20 Charles 803 fuel ethanol still http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1317/ 2000-11-21 Re: Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/1350/ 2000-11-23 Improving the Charles 803 http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12169/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/12168/ 2002-03-08 Re: [biofuel] Re: Warren Still Design - Still help http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/12152/ 2002-03-08 Re: Warren Still Design In brief: The Charles 803 still will not work as claimed: instead of 5-7 gal/hour of 180-190 proof first time every time, it will not give you more than 2-3 gal/hour of probably not much better than 160 proof. Serious questions were raised about its safety - and Mr Warren had cut all the original safety warnings from his instructions. Mr Warren kept increasing the price of his still plans, for no known reason, and especially the price of the auto temperature control valve, though he'd said he would be looking for cheaper suppliers of the valve. He also refused to divulge who these suppliers were or where the valve could be obtained. When we finally found this out it turned out he was charging double the retail price. Mr Warren had also altered the original instructions to conceal the fact that using the still didn't even require the valve - it was considered something of a luxury. The still plans themselves were not very clear - not sufficient for even a handy person to build the still from. Mr Warren's building and operating instructions that came with the plans were extremely confused. The List of materials included parts that weren't needed and didn't include parts that were needed, there were many errors and omissions - it was an over-long, rambling, chaotic hodge-podge. Of the 60 people we knew of who'd bought plans from Mr Warren, most of them list members, only ONE eventually emerged who'd managed to build the thing, and that because he was an experienced plumber and AC engineer. He found it severely wanting in performance. He later scrapped it and bastardised some of the parts to build a completely different design of still. We kept having problems with people who'd paid for the plans and hadn't received them, and our interceding with Mr Warren on their behalf didn't always have the desired effect. This continued happening for three years after Mr Warren left the list at the end of 2000 and we'd removed all mention of him and his still from our website. It emerged that the story Mr Warren had posted about how the still came to be designed, by him and some friends, including Pete Charles, during the oil price spike in 1980, was questionable. The so-called Charles 803 still is a direct copy of an earlier still designed by the Tallgrass Research Institute. This could have serious implications, as, though the Tallgrass Research Institute closed in 1983 following the death of one of the co-founders
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Hi Peggy ; Thanks for your post. I am tip-toeing here a little because I would never say I know as much as you about the ethanol/methanol debate. When someone knows more than me, my tendency is usually to shut up and listen. Because I fully and absolutely intend to build a still and distill ethanol, I have studied the ethanol conversion process. Ethanol from fruit or cane juices seems very attractive. In Cambodia, a liter of 75% ethanol sells for about $2. They use it to spike drinks. They distill it from fermented rice mash. I have personally seen the crude stills that they use. It is fantastic that they could make alcohol at all. Their production was maybe 50 liters per day. They used the cheapest fuel they could find for distillation : sawdust for $.01 per kg. It is burned in a clay stove which surrounds the distillation clay jar. The whole operation is terribly inefficient, but it works. With so much room for improvement, it looks like it could be a good business. But only because it is drinking alcohol. As a fuel substitute, where the price needs to be more like $.50 per liter, not so easy to make money. But I intend to try. From my understanding, ethanol from biomass is a different story. The two most popular ways to hydrolize biomass are acid and enzymatic hydrolysis. Many enzymes are proprietary and most are not easy to make on site. Then you have the problem of converting pentose sugars. If you don't do it, yields are low. If you do it, you need exotic or genetically modified organisms. Then we have another economic problem. You are in business to make money (aren't we all?). A small operator like me could never produce enough to pay you anything worth while. So you will not want to divulge all your process details for very little money. This is understandable. I guess I would do the same thing if I were you. It's business. Again please understand that I am not saying there anything wrong with this, just that it stops me quite effectively. Your process sounds fantastic, but in the final analysis, if we can't produce ethanol, it is only a mirage. Therefore, I'm going to sidestep the whole ethanol/methanol is better debate and just say that ethanol from cellulosic biomass, while very interesting, is not possible right now for the majority of us in the list. For you it is possible because you know how to do it, but for the rest of us who don't, no. Sure, a batch or two in the garage, yes. A few links are out there doing a batch in a plastic garbage can, but the economics are not addressed, and no pentose sugar fermenting. An economically viable process for a few hundred liters per day including equipment design and enzyme manufacture, no way. It will be very possible when more process details become available in the public domain. For those of us who are not chemists, we must await. Lot's of information in the public domain about gasification of biomass. I'm thinking of building a biomass gasifer (specifically sawdust) and convert my pickup truck. That's step one in methanol synthesis. The low pressure methanol process from syngas patent that Walt posted is quite significant. Methanol will probably be the next motor fuel. I say this mostly due to methanol's ability to be easily manufactured from natural gas (also digester biogas), and later as a hydrogen carrier for fuel cells. IMHO. Please correct me if I am wrong about anything. I want to be. I would love to make ethanol from biomass. I just don't know how. Sorry for my long reply. I am trying to explain myself without offending anyone. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Peter, A few additional comments in the benefits of fuel ethanol over methanol follow. A complete distillery setup can lower electric bills due to the surplus generation capability from burning the unreacted biomass while producing ethanol and other products to sell (xylitol, furfural, depending on composition of biomass). Any business that generates a cellulosic waste (vegetable processors) can offset electrical cost by generating electricity from waste and produce additional by-products for sale. Our processing system gets ethanol, furfural, xylitol, carbon dioxide, gypsum, and liquid fertilizer. Other processing for methanol only gets methanol and liquid fertilizer. Ethanol is a satisfactory non-toxic hydrogen source for fuel cells. Best wishes, Peggy Hi Walt ; Thanks very much for your post. Your project and web site are fascinating. I have a project which hasn't taken form yet, but I hope it will be something like Windward. Only in a lot warmer climate (and quite regrettably for an expat like myself, outside the US). Possibly I wil buy the land next month (100 ht), now only trees and jungle. Huge project for an individual like myself. Got to start somewhere. I read the low temp methanol patent application and trying to
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol update
I can understand that. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 05:06 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update SNIP Sorry for my long reply. I am trying to explain myself without offending anyone. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Peter, A few additional comments in the benefits of fuel ethanol over methanol follow. A complete distillery setup can lower electric bills due to the surplus generation capability from burning the unreacted biomass while producing ethanol and other products to sell (xylitol, furfural, depending on composition of biomass). Any business that generates a cellulosic waste (vegetable processors) can offset electrical cost by generating electricity from waste and produce additional by-products for sale. Our processing system gets ethanol, furfural, xylitol, carbon dioxide, gypsum, and liquid fertilizer. Other processing for methanol only gets methanol and liquid fertilizer. Ethanol is a satisfactory non-toxic hydrogen source for fuel cells. Best wishes, Peggy Hi Walt ; Thanks very much for your post. Your project and web site are fascinating. I have a project which hasn't taken form yet, but I hope it will be something like Windward. Only in a lot warmer climate (and quite regrettably for an expat like myself, outside the US). Possibly I wil buy the land next month (100 ht), now only trees and jungle. Huge project for an individual like myself. Got to start somewhere. I read the low temp methanol patent application and trying to understand it now. Very promising indeed. Tom Reed has published a methanol book (references posted in the archives). Does anyone have it? Comments? Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Hi Walt ; Thanks very much for your post. Your project and web site are fascinating. I have a project which hasn't taken form yet, but I hope it will be something like Windward. Only in a lot warmer climate (and quite regrettably for an expat like myself, outside the US). Possibly I wil buy the land next month (100 ht), now only trees and jungle. Huge project for an individual like myself. Got to start somewhere. I read the low temp methanol patent application and trying to understand it now. Very promising indeed. Tom Reed has published a methanol book (references posted in the archives). Does anyone have it? Comments? Thanks very much for your info. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Methanol update
Hello Peter, A few additional comments in the benefits of fuel ethanol over methanol follow. A complete distillery setup can lower electric bills due to the surplus generation capability from burning the unreacted biomass while producing ethanol and other products to sell (xylitol, furfural, depending on composition of biomass). Any business that generates a cellulosic waste (vegetable processors) can offset electrical cost by generating electricity from waste and produce additional by-products for sale. Our processing system gets ethanol, furfural, xylitol, carbon dioxide, gypsum, and liquid fertilizer. Other processing for methanol only gets methanol and liquid fertilizer. Ethanol is a satisfactory non-toxic hydrogen source for fuel cells. Best wishes, Peggy Hi Walt ; Thanks very much for your post. Your project and web site are fascinating. I have a project which hasn't taken form yet, but I hope it will be something like Windward. Only in a lot warmer climate (and quite regrettably for an expat like myself, outside the US). Possibly I wil buy the land next month (100 ht), now only trees and jungle. Huge project for an individual like myself. Got to start somewhere. I read the low temp methanol patent application and trying to understand it now. Very promising indeed. Tom Reed has published a methanol book (references posted in the archives). Does anyone have it? Comments? Peter G. Thailand ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
