Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
- Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method I went to Lazlo's page on the site you linked. Judging by the negative feedback it sounds like the guy is the type who says outrageous things for shock value a la Howard Stern. I haven't heard his bit obviously so it is not for me to judge but if it is true I think he is somewhat wasting his opportunity. I hope these nay sayers are wrong and it is just the case that they don't understand his message. I don't have a problem with abrasive people in fact I think we need that sometimes but it is a pity when mouthpeices go for sensational shocking outrageous material just for the shock value. BTW when you first posted, your references to FCC citations led me to believe he was a pirate radio op. I wish I had the opportunity that he has got there at a comercial station. Chances are they keep him on as a part of a risky ratings game the station is playing. I can't even get a spot on the university station due to the favoritism cliques that exist here. Clandestine operations are the only alternative sometimes but then the audience is virtually zilch..oh well.Its not so much the negative feedback, i mean the guy IS a dick, but he has many many points, and he only does the "shock value" bit when he is particularly angry about something (except when Slimfast and BamBam are involved-i kinda feel sorry for those two...) and is trying to hear other people's opinions on the matter, because around here, only contests get callers, so lazlo pisses people off enough to call and say what they think about the matter. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
- Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method Hey Jason and Katie;Does your friend have a website? I'm sure his broadcasts are out of my listening range but I'm very interested in that kind of stuff. There were some audio recordings as early as the late 1800's but I doubt you will find a recording of that type from 1906. I wish.Joe I dont think he does webcasts because he mainly focuses on the music and venting his opinion upon Kansas City and defying anyone to think on the matters he discusses. BUT i can give you the web address for the radio station and they have links to his blog, and contact info, etc. it is: www.965thebuzz.com and his name is Lazlo, he hates what idiocy the government has allowed for itself, and will not even attempt to be "nice" about anything if he believes he is making someone think. thats one of his things, even if you think about something long enough to reject it, you still considered it. he is proud of his FCC record, and i doubt he will stop anytime soon. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
I went to Lazlo's page on the site you linked. Judging by the negative feedback it sounds like the guy is the type who says outrageous things for shock value a la Howard Stern. I haven't heard his bit obviously so it is not for me to judge but if it is true I think he is somewhat wasting his opportunity. I hope these nay sayers are wrong and it is just the case that they don't understand his message. I don't have a problem with abrasive people in fact I think we need that sometimes but it is a pity when mouthpeices go for sensational shocking outrageous material just for the shock value. BTW when you first posted, your references to FCC citations led me to believe he was a pirate radio op. I wish I had the opportunity that he has got there at a comercial station. Chances are they keep him on as a part of a risky ratings game the station is playing. I can't even get a spot on the university station due to the favoritism cliques that exist here. Clandestine operations are the only alternative sometimes but then the audience is virtually zilch..oh well. Jason and Katie wrote: - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method Hey Jason and Katie; Does your friend have a website? I'm sure his broadcasts are out of my listening range but I'm very interested in that kind of stuff. There were some audio recordings as early as the late 1800's but I doubt you will find a recording of that type from 1906. I wish. Joe I dont think he does webcasts because he mainly focuses on the music and venting his opinion upon Kansas City and defying anyone to think on the matters he discusses. BUT i can give you the web address for the radio station and they have links to his blog, and contact info, etc. it is: www.965thebuzz.com and his name is Lazlo, he hates what idiocy the government has allowed for itself, and will not even attempt to be "nice" about anything if he believes he is making someone think. thats one of his things, even if you think about something long enough to reject it, you still considered it. he is proud of his FCC record, and i doubt he will stop anytime soon. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
I don't remember exactly where I first found this quote (either The Future of Freedom Foundation - www.fff.org or www.LewRockwell.com). It was from some speech or address that Teddy gave on April 19, 1906. It pops up on several quote websites (search for roosevelt april 19 1906 or Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government on your favorite search engine). At first glance this quote appears to refer to some conspiracy group or secret society that is behind the government, but I think it refers to the growing government bureacracy that runs the day-to-day operations regardless of who is in power. Good luck finding a sound byte. Thanks, Earl Kinsley [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- That government is best which governs least. -- Thomas Paine -- Check out my latest blogs at http://KinsleyForPrez08.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Jason and Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today. - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906 Hey Mr. Kinzley, do you know where i can get that quote in a soundbyte? we have a DJ here at home who is paying ungodly FCC fines because he doesnt really care, and i bet he would play this as a bump for his Church of Lazlo rant session. i wonder how many people have actually heard or read that, that are still alive... --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Hey Jason and Katie; Does your friend have a website? I'm sure his broadcasts are out of my listening range but I'm very interested in that kind of stuff. There were some audio recordings as early as the late 1800's but I doubt you will find a recording of that type from 1906. I wish. Joe Jason and Katie wrote: "Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today." - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906 Hey Mr. Kinzley, do you know where i can get that quote in a soundbyte? we have a DJ here at home who is paying ungodly FCC fines because he doesnt really care, and i bet he would play this as a bump for his "Church of Lazlo" rant session. i wonder how many people have actually heard or read that, that are still alive... --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
- Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul S Cantrell wrote: The last 2 elections would have probably gone the other way if it were simple majority. I think the concerns over time zones and the like could be worked out and we might have more than 2 twin parties. Personally, I think some simple changes would fix a lot of what is currently borked in the US political system. Debates for instance, pretty much all public debating (meaning televised) is done of, by and for the Twin Partys. This should cease immediately. This much of the system process would be well served by true open debate, including by design third or fringe party candidates. I think this alone would be easy to handle under law. I think it could make a huge difference. In the last Presidential election, both the Libertarian Party candidate (Mike Badnarick) and the Consitutional Party Candidate (Mike Peroutka) filed a lawsuit against the Commission on Presidential Debates to allow fringe candidates access to the debate held in Arizona. The judge ruled against them, stating that they waited too long to file and there wasn't enough time to allow for a thorough review of the case. Basically, better luck next time. Both candidates proceeded to crash the debates anyway, and were arrested trying to get in the building. These Presidential candidates spent a night in jail trying to defend open debates, and the mainstream new outlets didn't even mention it. When the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum Parties (you decide which one is which) finally succumb to letting the rabble in on their choreographed debates, they would be acknowledging that there really are more than two parties in the U.S. And that would be a bad thing for them. Thanks, Earl Kinsley [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today. - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today. - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906 Hey Mr. Kinzley, do you know where i can get that quote in a soundbyte? we have a DJ here at home who is paying ungodly FCC fines because he doesnt really care, and i bet he would play this as a bump for his Church of Lazlo rant session. i wonder how many people have actually heard or read that, that are still alive... --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic. I think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the people who put these monsters in office. The problem is it's like going shopping. You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you made. The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable. How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid handsomley in the deal? So what really is the will of it's people that the government should reflect? Or is it really already doing that but in a way that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle. Control of world economy is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right. People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said voting once every four years is hardly democratic. Representative governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for the ride (because they need them). Boy they must have some real belly laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real democratic system. If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways. Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible. I know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by nature reflect the will of it's people. In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this. Zeke On 10/26/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one." Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain. Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on those occasions when I say "Americans" (my apologies to Canadians and others living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give is my own, I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors). "...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons..." The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly convoluted reason for war which is so disturbing. "All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better." The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, "group all Americans as one", please prove me wrong and resist the simple perception of our culture which hides our dark little secrets and makes hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to another sovereign nation. Our government needs to "play nice with others" and work toward being a participant in a World community instead of further construction of it's empire. Mike Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I don't include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I think it will
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can text message their votes every night Sort of scary. But is it scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on each issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about their actual government On 10/27/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic. I think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the people who put these monsters in office. The problem is it's like going shopping. You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you made. The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable. How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid handsomley in the deal? So what really is the will of it's people that the government should reflect? Or is it really already doing that but in a way that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle. Control of world economy is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right. People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said voting once every four years is hardly democratic. Representative governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for the ride (because they need them). Boy they must have some real belly laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real democratic system. If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways. Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible. I know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by nature reflect the will of it's people. In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this. Zeke On 10/26/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain. Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on those occasions when I say Americans (my apologies to Canadians and others living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give is my own, I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors). ...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons... The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly convoluted reason for war which is so disturbing. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, group all Americans as one, please prove me wrong and resist the simple perception of our culture which hides our dark little secrets and makes hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to another sovereign nation. Our government needs to play nice with others and work toward being a participant in a World community instead of further construction of it's empire. Mike Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
It would still favor the richer people, unless the poor were well organized and voted in blocks. The minority has protections in the Constitution. The representative Republic we have in the US was setup by rich landowners for rich landowners and it hasn't changed that terribly much since then. I could see national referendums on certain issues being a good thing and might increase voter interest and turnout overall. I think we need to get rid of the electoral college as far as Presidential elections go...1 person does not equal 1 vote...The last 2 elections would have probably gone the other way if it were simple majority. I think the concerns over time zones and the like could be worked out and we might have more than 2 twin parties. On 10/27/05, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people cantext message their votes every nightSort of scary.But is itscarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote oneach issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about their actual government-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchHistory teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. - Abba Eban ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Zeke; A democratic system modelled after a TV show. That is just perfect. Why not? (shakes head sadly) TV is the basis for everything almost it seems. Well as long as a large percentage of people vote it might be good. (I invite criticizm here please) The larger the voting population the better. There is always the risk of some madness being sustained at a local level. For example if this idea were enacted in the last century at the state level chances are that the southern states would never have abolished slavery, but if it happened at a national level the laws may have come even sooner. As long as we are using TV as our model it would also be good if there was a prime time slot devoted to some kind of federally funded open platform where people could put forth thier ideas or give information that does not pass the traditional media filters. The internet is great for this but unfortunately it requires that people go looking for alternative information. Ironically it's just the kind of people who don't go looking for the truth that hold sway in these farce elections it seems, and the type who do are not sufficient in numbers to make much of a difference. All those who didn't vote for Bush for example. All those who were against the war crime of invading Iraq for example. Of course the downfall of that idea is the inevitable censorship that would be required to keep that form of media within certain bounds of tastefulness. Certain bastions of power and wealth would no doubt still try to sway the masses. This has always been the case, but I like to believe that americans are smart enough to choose wisely if they are well informed ( even though I berate my fellow man often for seeming to be just the opposite , I believe it is just because we are so well DISinformed which is totally forgiveable). Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can text message their votes every night Sort of scary. But is it scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on each issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about their actual government On 10/27/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic. I think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the people who put these monsters in office. The problem is it's like going shopping. You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you made. The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable. How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid handsomley in the deal? So what really is the will of it's people that the government should reflect? Or is it really already doing that but in a way that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle. Control of world economy is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right. People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said voting once every four years is hardly democratic. Representative governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for the ride (because they need them). Boy they must have some real belly laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real democratic system. If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways. Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible. I know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by nature reflect the will of it's people. In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this.
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Paul S Cantrell wrote: It'd be the best reality TV show yet! American Idol: The West Wing...Yes, Very Scary! It would still favor the richer people, unless the poor were well organized and voted in blocks. The minority has protections in the Constitution. The representative Republic we have in the US was setup by rich landowners for rich landowners and it hasn't changed that terribly much since then. But the poor and mid class are the MAJORITY. A lot of people don't vote because they are apathetic and feel that things are out of thier hands. They don't like it but feel that there is nothing they can do about it. If didn't have that assumption and felt empowered they would have the voice and collectively would change a lot of things. I could see national referendums on certain issues being a good thing and might increase voter interest and turnout overall. Yes and there would still be international problems but it would be a start. Perhaps an international system could be worked out. Maybe that was the notion that the united nations was supposed to serve?? Way back when the world was united against a fascist?? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul S Cantrell wrote: The last 2 elections would have probably gone the other way if it were simple majority. I think the concerns over time zones and the like could be worked out and we might have more than 2 twin parties. Personally, I think some simple changes would fix a lot of what is currently borked in the US political system. Debates for instance, pretty much all public debating (meaning televised) is done of, by and for the Twin Partys. This should cease immediately. This much of the system process would be well served by true open debate, including by design third or fringe party candidates. I think this alone would be easy to handle under law. I think it could make a huge difference. I concurr that the electoral college system is also borked, however, the simple majority system is also deeply flawed. Folks try to look at things as if there were red and blue states (because it's the state vote that counts). But it isn't red and blue states, it's urban vs rural. http://brianhayes.com/2005/09/red-blue-rural-urban.html in a popular election, the urbanites would win outright. Policy would be set by those living furthest from the elemental necessities of existance. blah blah blah. The Twin Party system is very much a very real problem. imho, the democrats have nothing to offer, they (at the top tiers) represent a life that I know little of. The republicans have nothing to offer, they (at the top tiers) represent a power structure that has no grasp on what the philosophic common man has to face in day to day life, AT ALL. The Libertarians (with a capitol L) have become the party of I've got mine, and whatever I do to keep it is okay, you don't matter, at all. America, the US, is hardly a united states at all. It is a chain (as it's nicely worded in the Urban Archipelago) of islands. I'm just old enough to have spent a few formative years hitchhiking around America, in some ways too many years, in other ways, not enough. But in those days people still hitchhiked, and still met all kinds of folks. Now, no one hitchhikes, but everyone jabbers on cellphones, ignoring the person standing next to them in line. blah blah blah. - -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDYP1G0STXFHxUucwRApFMAJ4i11uS058qyaEC4DdE59Q515LjigCgjZ/6 EmYs/BO+956ZBq/jAivzsfA= =YGb/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Personally, I think some simple changes would fix a lot of whatis currently borked in the US political system. Debates forinstance, pretty much all public debating (meaning televised)is done of, by and for the Twin Partys. This should cease immediately. This much of the system process would bewell served by true open debate, including by designthird or fringe party candidates. I think this alonewould be easy to handle under law. I think it could make a huge difference. I agree completely...They refused to let Nader in the debates which I think would have further shown how similar the twin parties are...Both parties have become conglomerations of extremists and moderates that better approximate 4 or 5 parties that caucus together. I concurr that the electoral college system is alsoborked, however, the simple majority system is also deeply flawed.Folks try to look at things as if there were redand blue states (because it's the state votethat counts). But it isn't red and blue states,it's urban vs rural. http://brianhayes.com/2005/09/red-blue-rural-urban.htmlin a popular election, the urbanites wouldwin outright. Policy would be set by those living furthest from the elemental necessitiesof existance. This is very interesting...http://www.urbanarchipelago.com is...ummm...interesting, too, but divisive...My question is, realistically, if we do away withe electoral college, won't more of these urbanites realize that their votes count and go out and actually vote? Like here in South Carolina, many non-republicans stay home because they feel their vote doesn't count because SC is a red state blah blah blah. The Twin Party system is verymuch a very real problem. imho, the democrats have nothing to offer, they (at the toptiers) represent a life that I know littleof. The republicans have nothing to offer,they (at the top tiers) represent a powerstructure that has no grasp on what the philosophic common man has to face inday to day life, AT ALL. The Libertarians(with a capitol L) have become the partyof I've got mine, and whatever I do tokeep it is okay, you don't matter, at all. America, the US, is hardly a united statesat all. It is a chain (as it's nicely worded inthe Urban Archipelago) of islands.I'm just old enough to have spent a few formativeyears hitchhiking around America, in some ways too many years, in other ways, not enough. Butin those days people still hitchhiked, and stillmet all kinds of folks. Now, no one hitchhikes,but everyone jabbers on cellphones, ignoring the person standing next to them in line.blah blah blah. I'm jealous of your opportunity to do so...Things really changed in the '80's didn't they? I like your use of the word 'borked'...I may have to use that...Maybe 'Miers' will come to mean bleeding incompetence and cronyism?-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchHistory teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. - Abba Eban ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
What debates? No one debates. The moderator pitches one question, which is ignored, and the candidates answers another in general platitudes. There is no debate. Paul S Cantrell wrote: Chip, On 10/27/05, *Chip Mefford* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I think some simple changes would fix a lot of what is currently borked in the US political system. Debates for instance, pretty much all public debating (meaning televised) is done of, by and for the Twin Partys. This should cease immediately. This much of the system process would be well served by true open debate, including by design third or fringe party candidates. I think this alone would be easy to handle under law. I think it could make a huge difference. I agree completely...They refused to let Nader in the debates which I think would have further shown how similar the twin parties are...Both parties have become conglomerations of extremists and moderates that better approximate 4 or 5 parties that caucus together. I concurr that the electoral college system is also borked, however, the simple majority system is also deeply flawed. Folks try to look at things as if there were red and blue states (because it's the state vote that counts). But it isn't red and blue states, it's urban vs rural. http://brianhayes.com/2005/09/red-blue-rural-urban.html in a popular election, the urbanites would win outright. Policy would be set by those living furthest from the elemental necessities of existance. This is very interesting...http://www.urbanarchipelago.com is...ummm...interesting, too, but divisive...My question is, realistically, if we do away withe electoral college, won't more of these urbanites realize that their votes count and go out and actually vote? Like here in South Carolina, many non-republicans stay home because they feel their vote doesn't count because SC is a red state blah blah blah. The Twin Party system is very much a very real problem. imho, the democrats have nothing to offer, they (at the top tiers) represent a life that I know little of. The republicans have nothing to offer, they (at the top tiers) represent a power structure that has no grasp on what the philosophic common man has to face in day to day life, AT ALL. The Libertarians (with a capitol L) have become the party of I've got mine, and whatever I do to keep it is okay, you don't matter, at all. America, the US, is hardly a united states at all. It is a chain (as it's nicely worded in the Urban Archipelago) of islands. I'm just old enough to have spent a few formative years hitchhiking around America, in some ways too many years, in other ways, not enough. But in those days people still hitchhiked, and still met all kinds of folks. Now, no one hitchhikes, but everyone jabbers on cellphones, ignoring the person standing next to them in line. blah blah blah. I'm jealous of your opportunity to do so...Things really changed in the '80's didn't they? I like your use of the word 'borked'...I may have to use that...Maybe 'Miers' will come to mean bleeding incompetence and cronyism? -- Thanks, PC He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. - Abba Eban ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can text message their votes every night Sort of scary. But is it scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on each issue, Lots of arguments about that in the past. Typical American answer: There is no way I will ever support Mob Rule, over Rule of Law. Short and Simple answer. Others disagreed, including other Americans IIRC. Everybody likes short and simple answers, trouble is things aren't any more simple than they are, which often isn't. Why not start a KISS Party? I bet you'd get rich anyway, LOL! Here's one thread (whole thread linked at the end of the page): http://snipurl.com/j5lt [biofuel] Direct Democracy Best Keith or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about their actual government On 10/27/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic. I think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the people who put these monsters in office. The problem is it's like going shopping. You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you made. The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable. How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid handsomley in the deal? So what really is the will of it's people that the government should reflect? Or is it really already doing that but in a way that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle. Control of world economy is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right. People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said voting once every four years is hardly democratic. Representative governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for the ride (because they need them). Boy they must have some real belly laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real democratic system. If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways. Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible. I know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by nature reflect the will of it's people. In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this. Zeke On 10/26/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain. Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on those occasions when I say Americans (my apologies to Canadians and others living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give is my own, I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors). ...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons... The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly convoluted reason for war which is so disturbing. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say,
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Mike Weaver wrote: What debates? No one debates. The moderator pitches one question, which is ignored, and the candidates answers another in general platitudes. There is no debate. I agree. Compare the quality of the debate between Nixon and Kennedy with the most recent interchange between Alfred P. Neumann and his retarded cousin to gain an appreciation of the height from which we've fallen. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method
Or compared to the political debates of a hundred years ago when people would come out and sit for hours to listen to debates. Neil Postman talks about this in his book Amusing ourselves to death. Joe robert luis rabello wrote: Mike Weaver wrote: What debates? No one debates. The moderator pitches one question, which is ignored, and the candidates answers another in general platitudes. There is no debate. I agree. Compare the quality of the debate between Nixon and Kennedy with the most recent interchange between Alfred P. Neumann and his retarded cousin to gain an appreciation of the height from which we've fallen. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
