Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
For Hakan to be right about the UN the states that are members would have to, at least the majority, be democracies and as that is not the case in the vast majority of members it causes the concept to not work and is one of the main causes of the ongoing failures of the UN to get much done. When you are made up of corrupt states it is hard to not be corrupt. Best regards, Vern csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com net cc: Subject: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now 11/09/02 08:12 AM Direct Democracy Please respond to biofuel ... somewhat represent a world democracy is UN??ÊÊ Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive?? Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous.Ê It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. This would to me imply that, in the same way we in America have a City-n-County level State Government level ... and Federal Government level, there would be a new level ... a Global Government level. to which our President (Clinton/Bush/Etc) would relate as a Governor does to a President.Ê Only in this case it would be ... what .. a Global President.?? And then what??Ê Would President Vladamir Putin also be a Governor??Ê Of the Russian Region??Ê Would Arafat be a Governor??Ê Of the Palestinian region?? Then countries wouldn't be countries anymore ... but only States (with Governors) in a what??Ê A Global Country??Ê The one-world country?? What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? I ... dunno Hakan.ÊÊ I see where you're coming from ... and I understand what you mean.Ê But I'm not sure if that's the way to handle it.Ê It sets a very eerie precedence.Ê And makes me very nervous. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now we have democracies based on countries and different organizations of appointment of governments. The only body that somewhat represent a world democracy is UN. I really hope that we can show respect this time and not repeat history. Democracy will not work, if we do not introduce it on a world wide basis and condemn any kind of occupation. Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive. The way that US and some others behave is by no definition to describe as international democracy. We must nurture and respect UN as a body at any cost, otherwise we will repeat history and democracy becomes a theatric farce. - Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
Dear Curtis, At 11:12 PM 11/8/2002 -0600, you wrote: ... somewhat represent a world democracy is UN?? Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive?? Long term it is, otherwise we will repeat the 2,500 year old story. Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous. It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. You are seeing some start of it, with the International war crime court, that US do not accept. It is not necessary a global government, but rather a network of international arbitration institutions. We already have some them. This would to me imply that, in the same way we in America have a City-n-County level State Government level ... and Federal Government level, there would be a new level ... a Global Government level. to which our President (Clinton/Bush/Etc) would relate as a Governor does to a President. Only in this case it would be ... what .. a Global President.?? Again, the organization does not have to map US democratic republic. The key is democracy not organization, I think that you mix the things up. I am not sure that Bush stands out as a particular and better world leader, than many others. And then what?? Would President Vladamir Putin also be a Governor?? Of the Russian Region?? Would Arafat be a Governor?? Of the Palestinian region?? Democracy is respect and participation by the people and their representatives, not a single state or federation of states. In some respect it is already working with UN. I can not see a global country as feasible, but democratic decisions, yes. You are tying yourself up with a US organization and this is probably not the best nor fully democratic, since someone can be president against the will of the people, as the current one. Palestine is not a region, it is a country, created by UN as the same time as Israel and with the same rights. Why it did not work, was the ethnic cleansing performed by the Jewish population in Israel and the lack of implementation by the pursued, combined with a lack of recognition by the Arab nations. Then countries wouldn't be countries anymore ... but only States (with Governors) in a what?? A Global Country?? The one-world country?? Never said that. What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? Why US have a constitution is because it is a new federal country. Most countries are to old to have a founders document, but are no lesser democracies because of that. Human rights existed in many countries long before US got out of practising slavery and suppression of minorities. I do not think that US have a particularly clean record. I ... dunno Hakan. I see where you're coming from ... and I understand what you mean. But I'm not sure if that's the way to handle it. It sets a very eerie precedence. And makes me very nervous. The only thing I promote is democracy, not a particular organization of it and for sure not the US model. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now we have democracies based on countries and different organizations of appointment of governments. The only body that somewhat represent a world democracy is UN. I really hope that we can show respect this time and not repeat history. Democracy will not work, if we do not introduce it on a world wide basis and condemn any kind of occupation. Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive. The way that US and some others behave is by no definition to describe as international democracy. We must nurture and respect UN as a body at any cost, otherwise we will repeat history and democracy becomes a theatric farce. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
If the definition by democracy is the will of the people and not the US republic democracy, you will be surprised if you sum them up. You will also be surprised of how many non-democracies that are supported by US. On the issue of corruption and manipulation, some of our most known democracies are quite good on that too. Hakan At 09:44 AM 11/9/2002 +0300, you wrote: For Hakan to be right about the UN the states that are members would have to, at least the majority, be democracies and as that is not the case in the vast majority of members it causes the concept to not work and is one of the main causes of the ongoing failures of the UN to get much done. When you are made up of corrupt states it is hard to not be corrupt. Best regards, Vern csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com net cc: Subject: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now 11/09/02 08:12 AM Direct Democracy Please respond to biofuel ... somewhat represent a world democracy is UN?? Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive?? Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous. It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. This would to me imply that, in the same way we in America have a City-n-County level State Government level ... and Federal Government level, there would be a new level ... a Global Government level. to which our President (Clinton/Bush/Etc) would relate as a Governor does to a President. Only in this case it would be ... what .. a Global President.?? And then what?? Would President Vladamir Putin also be a Governor?? Of the Russian Region?? Would Arafat be a Governor?? Of the Palestinian region?? Then countries wouldn't be countries anymore ... but only States (with Governors) in a what?? A Global Country?? The one-world country?? What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? I ... dunno Hakan. I see where you're coming from ... and I understand what you mean. But I'm not sure if that's the way to handle it. It sets a very eerie precedence. And makes me very nervous. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now we have democracies based on countries and different organizations of appointment of governments. The only body that somewhat represent a world democracy is UN. I really hope that we can show respect this time and not repeat history. Democracy will not work, if we do not introduce it on a world wide basis and condemn any kind of occupation. Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive. The way that US and some others behave is by no definition to describe as international democracy. We must nurture and respect UN as a body at any cost, otherwise we will repeat history and democracy becomes a theatric farce. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
It's not only eerie, it's outright unacceptable. Sam, John, the UN is coming, the UN is coming.. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 12:12 AM Subject: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy ... somewhat represent a world democracy is UN?? Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive?? Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous. It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. This would to me imply that, in the same way we in America have a City-n-County level State Government level ... and Federal Government level, there would be a new level ... a Global Government level. to which our President (Clinton/Bush/Etc) would relate as a Governor does to a President. Only in this case it would be ... what .. a Global President.?? And then what?? Would President Vladamir Putin also be a Governor?? Of the Russian Region?? Would Arafat be a Governor?? Of the Palestinian region?? Then countries wouldn't be countries anymore ... but only States (with Governors) in a what?? A Global Country?? The one-world country?? What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? I ... dunno Hakan. I see where you're coming from ... and I understand what you mean. But I'm not sure if that's the way to handle it. It sets a very eerie precedence. And makes me very nervous. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now we have democracies based on countries and different organizations of appointment of governments. The only body that somewhat represent a world democracy is UN. I really hope that we can show respect this time and not repeat history. Democracy will not work, if we do not introduce it on a world wide basis and condemn any kind of occupation. Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive. The way that US and some others behave is by no definition to describe as international democracy. We must nurture and respect UN as a body at any cost, otherwise we will repeat history and democracy becomes a theatric farce. - Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
For Hakan to be right about the UN the states that are members would have to, at least the majority, be democracies and as that is not the case in the vast majority of members it causes the concept to not work and is one of the main causes of the ongoing failures of the UN to get much done. When you are made up of corrupt states it is hard to not be corrupt. Best regards, Vern Funny idea, that the US has been some kind of champion of democracy in the wide world, which is what you seem to think. Jonas Savimbi, Mobutu Sese Seko, Pinochet, Marcos, Sukarno, White South Africa, the Sauds, the Shah... ah hell, I'll save my fingers from typing such a long list of fine democrats. Of course there's now a growing charge-sheet against US-based and other corporations sowing corruption in 3rd World countries, corporations mostly stemming from the nations which hogtied the UN in the first place. Your positioning of democracies on the one side and corrupt states on the other is naive in the extreme. Keith csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com net cc: Subject: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now 11/09/02 08:12 AM Direct Democracy Please respond to biofuel ... somewhat represent a world democracy is UN?? Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive?? Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous. It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. This would to me imply that, in the same way we in America have a City-n-County level State Government level ... and Federal Government level, there would be a new level ... a Global Government level. to which our President (Clinton/Bush/Etc) would relate as a Governor does to a President. Only in this case it would be ... what .. a Global President.?? And then what?? Would President Vladamir Putin also be a Governor?? Of the Russian Region?? Would Arafat be a Governor?? Of the Palestinian region?? Then countries wouldn't be countries anymore ... but only States (with Governors) in a what?? A Global Country?? The one-world country?? What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? I ... dunno Hakan. I see where you're coming from ... and I understand what you mean. But I'm not sure if that's the way to handle it. It sets a very eerie precedence. And makes me very nervous. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now we have democracies based on countries and different organizations of appointment of governments. The only body that somewhat represent a world democracy is UN. I really hope that we can show respect this time and not repeat history. Democracy will not work, if we do not introduce it on a world wide basis and condemn any kind of occupation. Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive. The way that US and some others behave is by no definition to describe as international democracy. We must nurture and respect UN as a body at any cost, otherwise we will repeat history and democracy becomes a theatric farce. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
The spirit of nationality is a sour ferment of the old wine of tribalism in the new bottles of democracy. Within which neither works out too well. Nations are an anachronism, and have been for quite a long time, leading to a very large proportion of the problems, destruction, corruption, and indeed lack of democracy in the world today. Is there even really such a thing as a nation? What do people relate to? By the time you start rallying to a flag, you've been well and truly spun. What you feel for, on the other hand, is your town, your neighbourhood, your valley, not those weird people in the next town. We have to outgrow this rather recent, cobbled-together, misbegotten concept of nations. And sod the Skunk Hollow weirdos in the next valley - but you'd probably be thrilled to pair off as sister-cities with those nice foreign folks in Outer Otjiwarongo, well-known as you are for your kindness and hospitality to strangers. So, Curtis, before Whitey arrived, what sort of place was this delusion you call America? The Native Americans would have looked at the nation you now hang a flag of pride over in much the same way as you're looking at what Hakan proposes, no? Would they have been wrong? Maybe not... considering what many people, including many Americans, are saying about the behaviour of the American government of today - a New World Order global government by default, and not one to be trusted. To put it more strongly, one that isn't at all trusted, not even by Americans - perhaps especially not by Americans. And there's not a thing anyone can do about it. Out of control, a rogue at large. From The Washington Times a couple of days ago - not exactly a left-wing propaganda sheet: If Americans do not increasingly come to understand that this nation is at risk because of the international animosity and disdain building against us, then, ultimately, those reactions and conditions are likely to reach back and do further damage to the domestic issues that so dominate politics. http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20021106-16015406.htm Policy issues not found on ballots One World, yes - the only way forward. It's only in America that you find this terror of the global government, a peculiarly American paranoia that makes no real sense. A Cold War hangover maybe. Anyway, I don't think it's a global government as such that's being proposed. It's not just Hakan who proposes what he proposed, not at all, it goes back a long way, as he intimated, and in many ways it's THE great debate of the age. We ought to start finding some solutions, and right sharpish, while we still have the chance. The UN was emasculated from the start - by the very nations who then conveniently claim it doesn't work, never mind that that's the way they wanted it, and still do, so they can tilt the playing field their way and call it level. How many UN resolutions on the Middle East has the US vetoed? And if it hadn't? Would the crisis have grown and grown the way it has to the lethal and intractable problem it's now become? Almost certainly not. Hakan's dead right, no matter how much many Americans might struggle with the idea. Yes, give me a world where Bush and Putin et al are only governors any time. Make it soon! Keith ... somewhat represent a world democracy is UN?? Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive?? Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous. It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. This would to me imply that, in the same way we in America have a City-n-County level State Government level ... and Federal Government level, there would be a new level ... a Global Government level. to which our President (Clinton/Bush/Etc) would relate as a Governor does to a President. Only in this case it would be ... what .. a Global President.?? And then what?? Would President Vladamir Putin also be a Governor?? Of the Russian Region?? Would Arafat be a Governor?? Of the Palestinian region?? Then countries wouldn't be countries anymore ... but only States (with Governors) in a what?? A Global Country?? The one-world country?? What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? I ... dunno Hakan. I see where you're coming from ... and I understand what you mean. But I'm not sure if that's the way to handle it. It sets a very eerie precedence. And makes me very nervous. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now we have democracies based on countries and different organizations of appointment of governments. The only body that somewhat represent a world democracy is UN. I
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
Hi Keith, I do not find any mention or defense of the US in my text and I agree with much of what you said. I do still maintain that there are many more countries represented at the UN that do not meet the Hakan test of a democracy and If we were to look at it from a one person one vote it would be even worse. That makes the UN a poor candidate for a Democratic World Government. Do please stop putting words in other peoples mouths and we could do with a lot less of your personal slander. If you used your mind in a constructive way I think you could make a valid point with out personal attacks. Best regards, Vern Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com orever.org cc: Subject: Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy 11/09/02 04:42 PM Please respond to biofuel For Hakan to be right about the UN the states that are members would have to, at least the majority, be democracies and as that is not the case in the vast majority of members it causes the concept to not work and is one of the main causes of the ongoing failures of the UN to get much done. When you are made up of corrupt states it is hard to not be corrupt. Best regards, Vern Funny idea, that the US has been some kind of champion of democracy in the wide world, which is what you seem to think. Jonas Savimbi, Mobutu Sese Seko, Pinochet, Marcos, Sukarno, White South Africa, the Sauds, the Shah... ah hell, I'll save my fingers from typing such a long list of fine democrats. Of course there's now a growing charge-sheet against US-based and other corporations sowing corruption in 3rd World countries, corporations mostly stemming from the nations which hogtied the UN in the first place. Your positioning of democracies on the one side and corrupt states on the other is naive in the extreme. Keith Ê csakima Ê [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Ê net cc: ÊÊ Subject:Ê [biofuel] There's gotta be a better wayÊ Was: BP now Ê 11/09/02 08:12 AM Direct Democracy Ê Please respond to Ê biofuel ... somewhat represent a world democracy is UN??ÊÊ Democracy must be shown at a global level to survive?? Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous.Ê It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. This would to me imply that, in the same way we in America have a City-n-County level State Government level ... and Federal Government level, there would be a new level ... a Global Government level. to which our President (Clinton/Bush/Etc) would relate as a Governor does to a President.Ê Only in this case it would be ... what .. a Global President.?? And then what??Ê Would President Vladamir Putin also be a Governor??Ê Of the Russian Region??Ê Would Arafat be a Governor??Ê Of the Palestinian region?? Then countries wouldn't be countries anymore ... but only States (with Governors) in a what??Ê A Global Country??Ê The one-world country?? What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? I ... dunno Hakan.ÊÊ I see where you're coming from ... and I understand what you mean.Ê But I'm not sure if that's the way to handle it.Ê It sets a very eerie precedence.Ê And makes me very nervous. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now we have democracies based on countries
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
I do still maintain that there are many more countries represented at the UN that do not meet the Hakan test of a democracy.. Iraq comes to mind. Chris Thornton 1991 VW Jetta GL 2 Door 1.6D - 233k miles 2000 VW Golf GLS 1.9TDI 130hp/229ftlbs - 73k miles 1998 VW Passat GLS 1.8T -- FOR SALE Amsoil Synthetic Lubricants Dealer #1098500 http://texastdi.com/6/ubb.x Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
- Original Message - From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 22:12 Subject: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy Pardon if I offend anyone on this list ... but the concept of a world democracy makes me very nervous. It, by the way it is sometimes talked about, implies in an unsaid way the existence of a so-called global-level government. ... to which all so-called governments must implicitly be subserveant to its global-level rules. It makes me very nervous as well. What would happen to our illustrious document the Constitution?? Thats just it, the Constution wouldn't matter any more. In fact some of the things that the UN, wants to ( and has done ) already infringe on the Constatution. And some of our solders have already paid the price for it. Some portions of the U.S.A. are already under UN control, If you goto what you think is a National Park or Refuge, and see a sign that says International Bio Reserve, that land is under control of a UN commitee, and the US Govt. has to check with the commitee befor it does anything extensive. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy
Hi Keith, I do not find any mention or defense of the US in my text Didn't say there was, but it's your usual drift, isn't it? I said it's what you seem to think, and indeed it is. and I agree with much of what you said. I do still maintain that there are many more countries represented at the UN that do not meet the Hakan test of a democracy I don't think Hakan made such a test. I don't think you've understood what he said. Try reading it again. and If we were to look at it from a one person one vote it would be even worse. That makes the UN a poor candidate for a Democratic World Government. Hakan did not propose a Democratic World Government, he specifically didn't say that. He said the UN is the only organisation which somewhat represents a world democracy. No, not just a quibble. And the somewhat is important, he also said it's not very suitable in its present form. What difference does one person one vote make when non-person corporations that are inimical to democracy and the public interest can buy off the entire political apparatus? It's just a meaningless formula now, it obscures the reality as much as reveals it. How many of those increasingly meaningless votes even get cast? - or how few rather? You think that's what democracy means? You have to abandon these formulas and look at what really happens in people's lives. How about a rich country that didn't allow its women to vote until 13 years ago? Probably some backward oil sheikhdom in the Gulf or something, eh? Switzerland, actually. I think it's the oldest democracy in the world, going back to the 13th century, and much admired, though certainly not without its flaws. Everywhere you look you find exceptions to these simplistic formulas, both better and worse. I don't want to interpret what Hakan said, but I believe he was talking about realities, not just empty forms. Switzerland, by the way, modelled its current federal constitution on the US, in 1848. Government there is a very local business, strictly bottom-up, the federal government is tiny and hardly seems to matter. There's no clear division between the governing party and the opposition. The Swiss don't just vote once in four years, they seem to be voting most of the time - in fact they vote whenever they feel like it, it's a citizens' right to organize a referendum on just about anything. Interest and turnouts are high. Not so easy to recognise today's US in that mirror image, is it? Do please stop putting words in other peoples mouths and we could do with a lot less of your personal slander. If you used your mind in a constructive way I think you could make a valid point with out personal attacks. Now there's a thing. I wonder what Harmon thinks of that? You sure slandered him, without either provocation or justification. Slander, yes - what you said about him wasn't true. You were asked some pertinent questions about that, to which you never deigned to reply. Perhaps you should. Maybe they're kind of awkward for you, but at least try, it would help your credibility. Now please tell me who I've slandered, and exactly how? You put words in Harmon's mouth, now in Hakan's, you've misconstrued mine. You're rather heavily tarred with your own brush, Mr Vern. I doubt I'd be very impressed by your views on constructive use of the mind and what constitutes a valid point. Keith Best regards, Vern Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com orever.org cc: Subject: Re: [biofuel] There's gotta be a better way Was: BP now Direct Democracy 11/09/02 04:42 PM Please respond to biofuel For Hakan to be right about the UN the states that are members would have to, at least the majority, be democracies and as that is not the case in the vast majority of members it causes the concept to not work and is one of the main causes of the ongoing failures of the UN to get much done. When you are made up of corrupt states it is hard to not be corrupt. Best regards, Vern Funny idea, that the US has been some kind of champion of democracy in the wide world, which is what you seem to think. Jonas Savimbi, Mobutu Sese Seko, Pinochet, Marcos, Sukarno, White South Africa, the Sauds, the Shah... ah hell, I'll save my fingers from typing such a long list of fine democrats. Of course there's now a growing charge-sheet against US-based and other corporations sowing corruption in 3rd World countries, corporations mostly stemming from the nations which hogtied the UN in the first place. Your positioning of democracies on the one side and corrupt states on the other is naive in the extreme. Keith csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
