Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
Propane is getting very expensive, if one uses a generator run on WVO, it is much cheaper than paying for propane. Also, it put fewer fumes and gasses into the house, which is much healthier. I agree that one should capture the waste energy heat from the generator, but rather than using it for heating, a more constant need would be domestic hot water, with the excess used for heat. Bright Blessings, Kim Robby Davenport wrote: the use of a generator to run electric stoves is very expensive better to use propane same for driers and if you capture the heat from gen set use hydronics or a small heat pump to move the heat , look up polarpowerinc.com they have a bunch of explaining on this sort of thing and they have small packaged co gen units as well. Robert Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
Getting way off the original topic,I've got a question I';m too lazy to google for (and think people might be interested in the answer to): Any ideas out in this group on a cost comparison between the costs of operating home heating oil furnaces (meaning potentially biodiesel heating) and propane heating? I know that I'm asking a pretty general question without specifics on particular equipment, however, we're wondering if there's any easy answers about relative efficiency of burning the two fuels and the cost differences per gallon or pound or whatever (I'm not living in an area where home heating oil is common, in fact, I don't believe we really get winter here anyhow, was running around town wearing shortsleeves and sandals yesterday). A group of us are going into the design phase of the small strawbale structure we're volunteer-building next summer for a community center in eastern Montana- the passive solar and superinsulated elements of the building should make it cheap to heat, but we're still looking for a small home heating oil furnace to use in it, and looking for some economic justification for them to go the oil heating (and biodiesel) route for their heating rather than propane options which of course are readily available in small heaters (don't know much yet about small oil furnaces)... thanks in advance, Mark At 07:11 AM 1/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: Propane is getting very expensive, if one uses a generator run on WVO, it is much cheaper than paying for propane. Also, it put fewer fumes and gasses into the house, which is much healthier. I agree that one should capture the waste energy heat from the generator, but rather than using it for heating, a more constant need would be domestic hot water, with the excess used for heat. Bright Blessings, Kim Robby Davenport wrote: the use of a generator to run electric stoves is very expensive better to use propane same for driers and if you capture the heat from gen set use hydronics or a small heat pump to move the heat , look up polarpowerinc.com they have a bunch of explaining on this sort of thing and they have small packaged co gen units as well. Robert Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2725424.4169802.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1394046/R=0/*http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3936_5802,FF.html8cfff05.jpg 8d00013.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
What is the cost limitations? On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, girl mark wrote: Getting way off the original topic,I've got a question I';m too lazy to google for (and think people might be interested in the answer to): Any ideas out in this group on a cost comparison between the costs of operating home heating oil furnaces (meaning potentially biodiesel heating) and propane heating? I know that I'm asking a pretty general question without specifics on particular equipment, however, we're wondering if there's any easy answers about relative efficiency of burning the two fuels and the cost differences per gallon or pound or whatever (I'm not living in an area where home heating oil is common, in fact, I don't believe we really get winter here anyhow, was running around town wearing shortsleeves and sandals yesterday). A group of us are going into the design phase of the small strawbale structure we're volunteer-building next summer for a community center in eastern Montana- the passive solar and superinsulated elements of the building should make it cheap to heat, but we're still looking for a small home heating oil furnace to use in it, and looking for some economic justification for them to go the oil heating (and biodiesel) route for their heating rather than propane options which of course are readily available in small heaters (don't know much yet about small oil furnaces)... thanks in advance, Mark At 07:11 AM 1/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: Propane is getting very expensive, if one uses a generator run on WVO, it is much cheaper than paying for propane. Also, it put fewer fumes and gasses into the house, which is much healthier. I agree that one should capture the waste energy heat from the generator, but rather than using it for heating, a more constant need would be domestic hot water, with the excess used for heat. Bright Blessings, Kim Robby Davenport wrote: the use of a generator to run electric stoves is very expensive better to use propane same for driers and if you capture the heat from gen set use hydronics or a small heat pump to move the heat , look up polarpowerinc.com they have a bunch of explaining on this sort of thing and they have small packaged co gen units as well. Robert Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2725424.4169802.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269 HM/A=1394046/R=0/*http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3936_5802,FF.h ml8cfff05.jpg 8d00013.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel. tml Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
At 10:16 AM 1/7/2003 -0800, you wrote: What is the cost limitations? We're not sure yet- maybe used equipment that costs under 1,000, maybe much more- the group the building is for is pretty good at fundraising for specific equipment once they have an amount in mind (they've got connections with church groups, great interpersonal connections all over the country for their tiny remote project, very important work they do, and they're charismatic people!). We don't have a very clear budget in mind yet as they are waiting for the design, we're designing it as cheaply as practical to accomplish what they need it to do. the building is only an 'outbuilding'- housing restrooms for the community center (SunMar composting toilets actually, the brand of toilets was donated, not by our choice), however it gets year-round use in a very harsh climate, and needs to be comfortable in a blizzard (and in the Plains 118 degree heat too!). The building also serves some other uses, and in the future it might become a dwelling instead, or something else we can't even predict right now. So we have to plan it as a potential year-round dwelling, not just a restroom building for an institution. The other point of investing decent amount of work and money in this building is that it is a model for cheap housing on the rez as well- lots of families trying to figure out how to build like that there, some interest in and experience with strawbale, lots of need for buildings people can do themselves without mortgages and loans (not available to reservation people!), and a need for housing that can be built over time as money and labor are available (ie, put up a pole barn when you can afford it,then do a strawbale wrap and plaster when you can afford it the next year, poor people in the southwest and mexico build this way and it are better off than middleclass americans with a huge mortgage, in some cases) There's especially a great need for 'anything but electric heat and trailers'. the community center place is trying to provide information on doing this kind of building, so we're trying to figure out where passive and inexpensive active solar, solar hot water, and biofuel heating can possibly come into play for various people who might use this as a model. Since we were there last year with a biodiesel-fueled vehicle, there was lots of interest generated in the question of how vegoil fuel can bring people's costs of living down (though few people in that community can afford diesels- they tend to drive whatever they can find cheap and their options are limited, though the rest of Montana is filled with ranchers driving really great diesel trucks! home heating oil equipment is available there, though, and the oil is a cheap alternative in case the biodiesel/wvo doesn't work out for some reason). The idea probably wouldn't work with homemade biodiesel at the community center- we're dealing with a bunch of elderly people and very young kids- but some kind of WVO heating option would be entirely appropriate- they really got off on the idea of sending the kids (teens) to wrangle grease at KFC with me one day (and boy did the kids swear not to eat any more fried food! resolution lasting only about two days...). too bad in this case that WVO options are not as mainstream as biodiesel being a straight replacement for home heating oil. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
Let me search some links and see what I come up with. An option might be a CHP option that would take care of lighting and doing radiant heating in the floor. That would procude a nice kind of warmth. If there was a battery with the genset then it could be utilized off-grid. Lots of banter going about this on the list recently. It might be useful to think about an old 1.6 VW diesel pulled from the junkyard and convert it to a genset. Anyone have experience w/ that? James Slayden On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, girl mark wrote: At 10:16 AM 1/7/2003 -0800, you wrote: What is the cost limitations? We're not sure yet- maybe used equipment that costs under 1,000, maybe much more- the group the building is for is pretty good at fundraising for specific equipment once they have an amount in mind (they've got connections with church groups, great interpersonal connections all over the country for their tiny remote project, very important work they do, and they're charismatic people!). We don't have a very clear budget in mind yet as they are waiting for the design, we're designing it as cheaply as practical to accomplish what they need it to do. the building is only an 'outbuilding'- housing restrooms for the community center (SunMar composting toilets actually, the brand of toilets was donated, not by our choice), however it gets year-round use in a very harsh climate, and needs to be comfortable in a blizzard (and in the Plains 118 degree heat too!). The building also serves some other uses, and in the future it might become a dwelling instead, or something else we can't even predict right now. So we have to plan it as a potential year-round dwelling, not just a restroom building for an institution. The other point of investing decent amount of work and money in this building is that it is a model for cheap housing on the rez as well- lots of families trying to figure out how to build like that there, some interest in and experience with strawbale, lots of need for buildings people can do themselves without mortgages and loans (not available to reservation people!), and a need for housing that can be built over time as money and labor are available (ie, put up a pole barn when you can afford it,then do a strawbale wrap and plaster when you can afford it the next year, poor people in the southwest and mexico build this way and it are better off than middleclass americans with a huge mortgage, in some cases) There's especially a great need for 'anything but electric heat and trailers'. the community center place is trying to provide information on doing this kind of building, so we're trying to figure out where passive and inexpensive active solar, solar hot water, and biofuel heating can possibly come into play for various people who might use this as a model. Since we were there last year with a biodiesel-fueled vehicle, there was lots of interest generated in the question of how vegoil fuel can bring people's costs of living down (though few people in that community can afford diesels- they tend to drive whatever they can find cheap and their options are limited, though the rest of Montana is filled with ranchers driving really great diesel trucks! home heating oil equipment is available there, though, and the oil is a cheap alternative in case the biodiesel/wvo doesn't work out for some reason). The idea probably wouldn't work with homemade biodiesel at the community center- we're dealing with a bunch of elderly people and very young kids- but some kind of WVO heating option would be entirely appropriate- they really got off on the idea of sending the kids (teens) to wrangle grease at KFC with me one day (and boy did the kids swear not to eat any more fried food! resolution lasting only about two days...). too bad in this case that WVO options are not as mainstream as biodiesel being a straight replacement for home heating oil. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
Girl Mark, My first concern in designing the straw bale house would be to maintain the good insulation in the roof construction. The losses through the roof are twice or more than the losses trough the walls. Straw bale is and should be an open construction, but for the roof I would use a closed construction. I would put in a humidity barrier in the roof construction and use loosely packed straw with the same thickness as straw bales. The traditional old farm house had the animals (furnace) in the basement, living space on first floor and hey and straw storage in the attic to use for animals during the winter. I would choose a low temperature heat delivery system, because that sets the stage for flexible choices of heating sources. Heated floor in concrete, without the often prescribed insulation layer in the floor. To control room temperature, I would only use an indoor temperature sensor, with feeding through a three way valve. Gives good radiant based delivery, with large energy storage and a possibility to use passive solar panels or heat pumps for heating. Oil is normally around 30% cheaper than gas, if you look at energy for the price. A difference that becomes much less if you look at the of the furnaces. A very good oil furnace will give you annual efficiency rate between 75 to 80% and gas around 90%. To maintain the efficiency in the oil furnace, you need more maintenance than gas. Explains why they have the premium price on gas. It is pulsating oil furnaces that gives you the same efficiency as gas, but currently not generally available. If you have winters that do not goes under freezing temperatures, heat pumps is probably the cheapest. For hot water, the solar panels in combination with the heat pumps, very good. If your peak heating needs are higher and you want to be independent, the combination the combination biodiesel furnace and solar panels provide an optimum and clean solution. It will also be the lower investment of the choices, but not the lowest running cost. Hakan At 09:34 AM 1/7/2003 -0800, you wrote: Getting way off the original topic,I've got a question I';m too lazy to google for (and think people might be interested in the answer to): Any ideas out in this group on a cost comparison between the costs of operating home heating oil furnaces (meaning potentially biodiesel heating) and propane heating? I know that I'm asking a pretty general question without specifics on particular equipment, however, we're wondering if there's any easy answers about relative efficiency of burning the two fuels and the cost differences per gallon or pound or whatever (I'm not living in an area where home heating oil is common, in fact, I don't believe we really get winter here anyhow, was running around town wearing shortsleeves and sandals yesterday). A group of us are going into the design phase of the small strawbale structure we're volunteer-building next summer for a community center in eastern Montana- the passive solar and superinsulated elements of the building should make it cheap to heat, but we're still looking for a small home heating oil furnace to use in it, and looking for some economic justification for them to go the oil heating (and biodiesel) route for their heating rather than propane options which of course are readily available in small heaters (don't know much yet about small oil furnaces)... thanks in advance, Mark At 07:11 AM 1/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: Propane is getting very expensive, if one uses a generator run on WVO, it is much cheaper than paying for propane. Also, it put fewer fumes and gasses into the house, which is much healthier. I agree that one should capture the waste energy heat from the generator, but rather than using it for heating, a more constant need would be domestic hot water, with the excess used for heat. Bright Blessings, Kim Robby Davenport wrote: the use of a generator to run electric stoves is very expensive better to use propane same for driers and if you capture the heat from gen set use hydronics or a small heat pump to move the heat , look up polarpowerinc.com they have a bunch of explaining on this sort of thing and they have small packaged co gen units as well. Robert Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
At 10:16 AM 1/7/2003 -0800, you wrote: What is the cost limitations? We're not sure yet- maybe used equipment that costs under 1,000, maybe much more- the group the building is for is pretty good at fundraising for specific equipment once they have an amount in mind (they've got connections with church groups, great interpersonal connections all over the country for their tiny remote project, very important work they do, and they're charismatic people!). We don't have a very clear budget in mind yet as they are waiting for the design, we're designing it as cheaply as practical to accomplish what they need it to do. the building is only an 'outbuilding'- housing restrooms for the community center (SunMar composting toilets actually, the brand of toilets was donated, not by our choice), however it gets year-round use in a very harsh climate, and needs to be comfortable in a blizzard (and in the Plains 118 degree heat too!). The building also serves some other uses, and in the future it might become a dwelling instead, or something else we can't even predict right now. So we have to plan it as a potential year-round dwelling, not just a restroom building for an institution. The other point of investing decent amount of work and money in this building is that it is a model for cheap housing on the rez as well- lots of families trying to figure out how to build like that there, some interest in and experience with strawbale, lots of need for buildings people can do themselves without mortgages and loans (not available to reservation people!), and a need for housing that can be built over time as money and labor are available (ie, put up a pole barn when you can afford it,then do a strawbale wrap and plaster when you can afford it the next year, poor people in the southwest and mexico build this way and it are better off than middleclass americans with a huge mortgage, in some cases) There's especially a great need for 'anything but electric heat and trailers'. the community center place is trying to provide information on doing this kind of building, so we're trying to figure out where passive and inexpensive active solar, solar hot water, and biofuel heating can possibly come into play for various people who might use this as a model. Since we were there last year with a biodiesel-fueled vehicle, there was lots of interest generated in the question of how vegoil fuel can bring people's costs of living down (though few people in that community can afford diesels- they tend to drive whatever they can find cheap and their options are limited, though the rest of Montana is filled with ranchers driving really great diesel trucks! home heating oil equipment is available there, though, and the oil is a cheap alternative in case the biodiesel/wvo doesn't work out for some reason). The idea probably wouldn't work with homemade biodiesel at the community center- we're dealing with a bunch of elderly people and very young kids- but some kind of WVO heating option would be entirely appropriate- they really got off on the idea of sending the kids (teens) to wrangle grease at KFC with me one day (and boy did the kids swear not to eat any more fried food! resolution lasting only about two days...). too bad in this case that WVO options are not as mainstream as biodiesel being a straight replacement for home heating oil. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
It is pulsating oil furnaces that gives you the same efficiency as gas, but currently not generally available. If you purchase your pulsating furnace in the form of a high compression diesel engine they are quite available. If the mechanical work is used to drive a compressor you can exceed the heat available in the fuel. Certainly the exhaust should not be released above ambient temperature outdoor. Kirk -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 1:56 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: biodiesel vs. propane for heating was Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane Girl Mark, My first concern in designing the straw bale house would be to maintain the good insulation in the roof construction. The losses through the roof are twice or more than the losses trough the walls. Straw bale is and should be an open construction, but for the roof I would use a closed construction. I would put in a humidity barrier in the roof construction and use loosely packed straw with the same thickness as straw bales. The traditional old farm house had the animals (furnace) in the basement, living space on first floor and hey and straw storage in the attic to use for animals during the winter. I would choose a low temperature heat delivery system, because that sets the stage for flexible choices of heating sources. Heated floor in concrete, without the often prescribed insulation layer in the floor. To control room temperature, I would only use an indoor temperature sensor, with feeding through a three way valve. Gives good radiant based delivery, with large energy storage and a possibility to use passive solar panels or heat pumps for heating. Oil is normally around 30% cheaper than gas, if you look at energy for the price. A difference that becomes much less if you look at the of the furnaces. A very good oil furnace will give you annual efficiency rate between 75 to 80% and gas around 90%. To maintain the efficiency in the oil furnace, you need more maintenance than gas. Explains why they have the premium price on gas. It is pulsating oil furnaces that gives you the same efficiency as gas, but currently not generally available. If you have winters that do not goes under freezing temperatures, heat pumps is probably the cheapest. For hot water, the solar panels in combination with the heat pumps, very good. If your peak heating needs are higher and you want to be independent, the combination the combination biodiesel furnace and solar panels provide an optimum and clean solution. It will also be the lower investment of the choices, but not the lowest running cost. Hakan At 09:34 AM 1/7/2003 -0800, you wrote: Getting way off the original topic,I've got a question I';m too lazy to google for (and think people might be interested in the answer to): Any ideas out in this group on a cost comparison between the costs of operating home heating oil furnaces (meaning potentially biodiesel heating) and propane heating? I know that I'm asking a pretty general question without specifics on particular equipment, however, we're wondering if there's any easy answers about relative efficiency of burning the two fuels and the cost differences per gallon or pound or whatever (I'm not living in an area where home heating oil is common, in fact, I don't believe we really get winter here anyhow, was running around town wearing shortsleeves and sandals yesterday). A group of us are going into the design phase of the small strawbale structure we're volunteer-building next summer for a community center in eastern Montana- the passive solar and superinsulated elements of the building should make it cheap to heat, but we're still looking for a small home heating oil furnace to use in it, and looking for some economic justification for them to go the oil heating (and biodiesel) route for their heating rather than propane options which of course are readily available in small heaters (don't know much yet about small oil furnaces)... thanks in advance, Mark At 07:11 AM 1/7/2003 -0600, you wrote: Propane is getting very expensive, if one uses a generator run on WVO, it is much cheaper than paying for propane. Also, it put fewer fumes and gasses into the house, which is much healthier. I agree that one should capture the waste energy heat from the generator, but rather than using it for heating, a more constant need would be domestic hot water, with the excess used for heat. Bright Blessings, Kim Robby Davenport wrote: the use of a generator to run electric stoves is very expensive better to use propane same for driers and if you capture the heat from gen set use hydronics or a small heat pump to move the heat , look up polarpowerinc.com they have a bunch of explaining on this sort of thing and they have small packaged co gen units as well. Robert Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
the use of a generator to run electric stoves is very expensive better to use propane same for driers and if you capture the heat from gen set use hydronics or a small heat pump to move the heat , look up polarpowerinc.com they have a bunch of explaining on this sort of thing and they have small packaged co gen units as well. Robert malcolm.scott wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] bio to grid I am purchasing a homestead in Oregon and looked into generating my own electrical requirements using the power grid for storage and selling excess of up to the limit of 25KW. I would be using waste vegitable cooking oil or waste engine crankcase oil as a form of recycling. Besides generating electrical needs would be space heating and vehicle operations be it electrical or WVO (ECO is too polluting). But, Oregon utility companies do not want the hassle of incompent (unsafe) energy providers nor the competition in general. The area in Oregon turned out to have only a buy rate of .02c USA while maintaining a 10.00/month minimum charge. First, that means I am required to run my plant constantly at 0.7KW feeding the grid JUST TO PAY the minimum meter reading charges. Then the .02c is ridiculous for all the extra equipment requirements EXCEPT if I was aiming at a net zero result with the grid minus that 0.7KW loss (free energy to utilities). I do not know about the experiences of others; but for me, I am configuring to have a smaller genset (5-8KW vs 25-30KW) and a complete disconnect from the grid (once reliability established). Granted, I will need to have a small 240VDC battery bank for the 240 circuits used in the house being usually heating elements. This bank will then be charged by the constant running genset which will ramp up to full output (say over a 10 second period) to feed those stove, oven, water heater, clothes dryer, furnace, etc. which exist. I may convert space heating from electrical to biofuel energy furnaces. Around Oregon, it appears powergrid connected co-generation biofuel driven country residential systems is still not viable. At least my cost of 8c/KWH utility charges plus staying finally warm to my heart content AND running my cars/trucks/tractors/etc. with essentially free fuel will be realized. Maybe I can get a neighbor to use recycled bio waste with me by hooking into my system and get off the grid themselves will serve to give notice to the arrogant utility companies! When biowaste is being used as fuel versus landfill, any efficiency is beneficial while it certainly could be better if the utilities were less hostile. 2 cents is probably about what they pay for electricity. Have you considered a water cooled engine so you can use the wasted heat? You get the heat and they get the electricity. Malcolm Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
At 13:14 Monday, you wrote: the use of a generator to run electric stoves is very expensive better to use propane same for driers and if you capture the heat from gen set use hydronics or a small heat pump to move the heat , look up polarpowerinc.com they have a bunch of explaining on this sort of thing and they have small packaged co gen units as well. Robert You missed the basic pointI have essentially unlimited fuel for virtually zero cost. Most homes are fully electrified in the country as this is the only utility reaching them. By reducing the mix of energy sources, one also reduces the complexity and labor costs. Using WVO that is headed to either the land fill or food chain, I am putting that waste product of society to a safer use. If all I need to do is drop in a genset and small battery bank to deal with the heavy heat element loads, I have a SIMPLE SOLUTION. I will probably pull the water coolant and exhaust heat energies into some useful purpose providing it can remain simple. IE - The genset is located in a 1,000 sqft workshop so use the exhaust to augment the needed space heating by running the exhaust pipe across the back of the shop. Remember, the genset will be averaging only about 2-3KW which will not produce very much waste heat. Simplicity is why people hook into the grid for all there energy needs and I only want to add one level of additional complexity by using my own genset. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] bio to grid add co gen /prpane
Neil wrote: Remember, the genset will be averaging only about 2-3KW which will not produce very much waste heat. For simplicity, the amount of waste heat per day is equivalent to about 48 pounds (22 kg) of wood or over 17,000 lbs/yr (7,730 kg/year). NOTE -- I think you mentioned running 24/7 and your producing 2.5 kWh and lets say your genset is 33% efficient so 67% (5.0 kWh) of your energy generates heat and theirs 3412 BTUs/kW so this amounts to 5.0 kWh x 24 hours = 120 kW/day of heat For some sort of comparison wood provides about 8,600 Btu per oven-dry pound so this amounts to (120 kW/day x 3412 Btu/kW)/8600 Btu/pound = about 48 pounds of wood per day times 365 days/year = more than 17,000 pounds/year Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
