Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
on 20/8/01 12:21 AM, Alan Shank at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looking back at Estevez' complaint, I'm coming around to his way of thinking. To me, it does spoil the beauty of an international championship to have a runner sacrifice himself to benefit a teammate. For one thing, I think of track as an individual sport, except for the relays, of course. For another, I'd like to see a level playing field for everyone in a championship race. I don't think El Guerrouj needs an advantage. If he is concerned about Ngeny's or Estevez' finish and wants a fast pace, then he should have to take the risk, as Paula Radcliffe has, of making it his kind of race. I agree but would add that EL G was not the first to receive this sort of help. The first I saw were the Kenyans and I'm still sure it happened in the 1992 Olympic 10,000m when Shah received assistance from Boutayeb although he claimed not to want it. Also in the Barcelona 1500 a big Kenyan (whose name I forget) kept Morceli trapped on the kerb for as long as he could. Of course you could argue that the Brits ran as a team in the LA 1500 when Coe won and Cram was second! (That's a joke) Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Though the rules seem to apply only to lapped runners providing pacing assistance (Bob Hersh?), I feel that El Guerrouj and Kaouch should have been disqualified for violating the spirit of fair play, especially since officials were aware of what happened in 1999. You know the old saying, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The IAAF should be embarrassed by what happened and should send out a warning that any further occurrences will be dealt with harshly. By this reasoning, the winner should be DQ'ed in the 1500 at every GP meet where there's a rabbit (which means at just about every GP meet). IAAF rules, after all, apply to all international competition, not just the World Championships. But people don't get DQ'ed because pacing by a rabbit is permitted by the rules. Looking beyond the letter of the rules, I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that El G did not violate the spirit of fair play and did nothing that should have resulted in a disqualification. Bob H
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
In a message dated Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:24:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Walt, as Bob said, why should El G be disqualified as everyone in that race had the benefit of Kaouch, not just El G. While I'm not joining the forces calling for a DQ, I do have to take issue with the everyone had the benefit statement, on two points: El G knew what the pace would be and the others didn't. (Of course, anybody with half a brain should have known what was coming after Seville and should have been prepared to go to the front and do something about it. While that might hamper your chances of winning, you should know you have zero chance of winning in a GP-rabbit-style race, so why not take the chance?) Familiarity with the cadence and stride pattern of Kaouch. Not only do you have a better idea of how close you can run to the rabbit without getting clipped, ff you've ever done endless intervals, you now how much easier they are when you're running with someone with whom you're familiar. When you get into that rhythm, instead of working at running, it just flows. That was a bit of symbiosis only El G could enjoy, under the circumstance. Is it illegal? No. Is it in bad taste? Yup, just like it was when Ben Jipcho did the dirty work for Keino against Ryun in '68. gh
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
B. Kunnath wrote: Alan, Great analysis! A little unfair to ElG to use the championship rabbit excuse as his winning strategy. After all in a rabbited race, anyone can use the services of the said rabbit. If all the runners know that ElG is the man to beat, and they use the rabbit as much as he does, I dont see any extra advantage he may have over anyone else..except the rabbit! Well, as I answered in another post, El G wants the fast pace to lessen the chance that he'll be outkicked, so he is getting an advantage; I think he should pay for that advantage by leading, rather than accepting his teammate's sacrifice. Radcliffe may have benefitted if she had tucked in behind the Ethiopian runners for a few laps and made them share the work load..it was a tactical mistake. I think her case is a little bit different. She's not the best 10K runner, as El G is the best 1500m runner. Tulu ran a 60+ last lap in Sydney; that's not just an issue of basic speed. Tulu was much fresher than Radcliffe after the same pace. She's just a better 10K runner than Radcliffe. Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Hey, I wish that El G wouldn't use his countrymen as rabbits as well. BUT, I don't feel as though it is worthy of disqualification. Lagat should have gone out ahead of Kaouch and slowed the pace down. Or the Spanish should have boxed him in. There are many ways to get around it that a true champion would have figured out. If Morceli was in that race at his prime, do you think Kaouch would have prevented him from winning? Probably not. He would have figured out a way to neutralize Kaouch. Now, who would have won is anyone's guess... but you can bet that if it was El G, it wouldn't be because of his countryman. By the way, in my last post I meant 2200 feet, not 1200. M From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:44:29 EDT In a message dated Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:24:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Walt, as Bob said, why should El G be disqualified as everyone in that race had the benefit of Kaouch, not just El G. While I'm not joining the forces calling for a DQ, I do have to take issue with the everyone had the benefit statement, on two points: El G knew what the pace would be and the others didn't. (Of course, anybody with half a brain should have known what was coming after Seville and should have been prepared to go to the front and do something about it. While that might hamper your chances of winning, you should know you have zero chance of winning in a GP-rabbit-style race, so why not take the chance?) Familiarity with the cadence and stride pattern of Kaouch. Not only do you have a better idea of how close you can run to the rabbit without getting clipped, ff you've ever done endless intervals, you now how much easier they are when you're running with someone with whom you're familiar. When you get into that rhythm, instead of working at running, it just flows. That was a bit of symbiosis only El G could enjoy, under the circumstance. Is it illegal? No. Is it in bad taste? Yup, just like it was when Ben Jipcho did the dirty work for Keino against Ryun in '68. gh _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Randall Northam wrote: on 20/8/01 12:21 AM, Alan Shank at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looking back at Estevez' complaint, I'm coming around to his way of thinking. To me, it does spoil the beauty of an international championship to have a runner sacrifice himself to benefit a teammate. For one thing, I think of track as an individual sport, except for the relays, of course. For another, I'd like to see a level playing field for everyone in a championship race. I don't think El Guerrouj needs an advantage. If he is concerned about Ngeny's or Estevez' finish and wants a fast pace, then he should have to take the risk, as Paula Radcliffe has, of making it his kind of race. I agree but would add that EL G was not the first to receive this sort of help. Yes, that's why I said re-introduced earlier in the post. Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
In a message dated 8/20/01 9:38:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By this reasoning, the winner should be DQ'ed in the 1500 at every GP meet where there's a rabbit (which means at just about every GP meet). IAAF rules, after all, apply to all international competition, not just the World Championships. But people don't get DQ'ed because pacing by a rabbit is permitted by the rules. Looking beyond the letter of the rules, I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that El G did not violate the spirit of fair play and did nothing that should have resulted in a disqualification. With the increased prize money that's at stake on the Grand Prix/Golden League circuit, I would propose that rabbits be eliminated from those meets. Although I realize that's not going to happen anytime soon, I think that most fans and meet directors would find that true competitive races would be more exciting than all of those (often boring) Time Trials that are the norm now. And Bob, please explain why what Kaouch did in 1999 and this year is any different, in terms of fair play, than when a lapped (or about to be lapped) runner provides pacing help to a teammate (which is covered in the IAAF rules). Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
And Bob, please explain why what Kaouch did in 1999 and this year is any different, in terms of fair play, than when a lapped (or about to be lapped) runner provides pacing help to a teammate (which is covered in the IAAF rules). Simple - a lapped runner can be at an advantage over the rest of the field in terms. A runner who takes the lead from the gun is not at any advantage over the rest of the field. So the difference is whether an athlete is getting pacing assistance from someone who has an inherent advantage or not. Big difference. You could argue that if El G. is able to convince a countryman to make the final and then sacrifice himself, then El G. is at an advantage. I would agree, but I also consider it perfectly acceptable advantage, just like having superior speed or strength is an advantage. I don't consider being paced by a lapped runner to be an acceptable advantage. Just my opinion - everyone's definition of fair play is different. One other note - even with lapped runners, it is difficult to actually prove collusion - witness the 1992 Olympic 10K as well as Louroupe's world record for the 1 hour run. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
In a message dated 8/19/01 7:41:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Here's hoping when/if El Guerrouj contests the 5000 final in Paris 2003 that any other Moroccans who may be in the race will be running for themselves! Though the rules seem to apply only to lapped runners providing pacing assistance (Bob Hersh?), I feel that El Guerrouj and Kaouch should have been disqualified for violating the spirit of fair play, especially since officials were aware of what happened in 1999. You know the old saying, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The IAAF should be embarrassed by what happened and should send out a warning that any further occurrences will be dealt with harshly. Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Alan, Great analysis! A little unfair to ElG to use the championship rabbit excuse as his winning strategy. After all in a rabbited race, anyone can use the services of the said rabbit. If all the runners know that ElG is the man to beat, and they use the rabbit as much as he does, I dont see any extra advantage he may have over anyone else..except the rabbit! Radcliffe may have benefitted if she had tucked in behind the Ethiopian runners for a few laps and made them share the work load..it was a tactical mistake. Bob In 1999, Morocco introduced, or re-introduced, the Championship rabbit. For one thing, I think of track as an individual sport, except for the relays, of course. For another, I'd like to see a level playing field for everyone in a championship race. I don't think El Guerrouj needs an advantage. If he is concerned about Ngeny's or Estevez' finish and wants a fast pace, then he should have to take the risk, as Paula Radcliffe has, of making it his kind of race. Here's hoping when/if El Guerrouj contests the 5000 final in Paris 2003 that any other Moroccans who may be in the race will be running for themselves! Cheers, Alan Shank _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Walt, as Bob said, why should El G be disqualified as everyone in that race had the benefit of Kaouch, not just El G. The people who complain that it is unfair, IMHO, are those that are jealous because they can't hang in a fast race. El G is the best out there and he wins by running his competition into the ground. How he achieves that is inconsequential. Why couldn't Lagat use Kaouch in the same manner as El G? Because he is not good enough, as was demonstrated by El G running away from him at 800 meters. El G got to the finish line first. He was the champ because he was is simply the fastest out there... no one can hang with him. I don't see how there is an argument here. M From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:25:55 EDT In a message dated 8/19/01 7:41:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Here's hoping when/if El Guerrouj contests the 5000 final in Paris 2003 that any other Moroccans who may be in the race will be running for themselves! Though the rules seem to apply only to lapped runners providing pacing assistance (Bob Hersh?), I feel that El Guerrouj and Kaouch should have been disqualified for violating the spirit of fair play, especially since officials were aware of what happened in 1999. You know the old saying, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The IAAF should be embarrassed by what happened and should send out a warning that any further occurrences will be dealt with harshly. Walt Murphy _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
