RE: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
Hi Malmo, So Jon knows nothing about running but knows something about training for running (double negative). As for pontification, your post seems to fit that bill quite well. As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes. I know both types of Kenyan athletes. The ones who do mega distance and the ones who do less than 100 km a week. I also know many Kenyan athletes who never walked to school or church but then again I know of many who walked/ran 7 to 8 km to and 7 to 8 km from school every day. Some of these lads quoted 70 to 80 km training per week. They were of course not including the 80 km a week to and from school or the morning and night time trip out to check the live stock. This leads me to believe that there are at least 3 types of succesful Kenyan Distance runners. The less than 100 km per week brigade, the guys who claim less than 100km per week but actually do a lot of supplementary training, and the mega distance guys. There seems to be little difference between the performances though. Sean --- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Took a break from the list to protest the censorship Nazis at UO. When I heard you were pontificating again I just had to come back. Jon, you know nothing about running, nor do you know nothing about training for running. Period. End of story. Citing Kipketer, an 800 meter guy, for doing 30 mpw is downright dumb. T and F 101: 800 meter is not a distance event. Besides, even John Smiths 400 guys run that much. We all laugh at the running to school myth, as well. But I'll tell you that one agent who represents many Kenyans told me of his visits there: on a any given Sunday morning, the roads will be filled with men, women and children, walking up to 10 miles to and from church. Now send me an autographed copy of your book, which is an exploration of the obvious. I'll pay the suggested retail. Read The Slave Trade (Hugh Thomas) while you're at it. your pal, malmo Quit misusing the word serendipity while your at it. It's driving me (and Mr. Safire) nuts. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 11:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence Richard: I've read most of what you site and what I wrote in no way contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices. I have also discussed this with many Kenyan runners, from Kip Keino to Ibrahim Hussein to Wilson Kipketer. They all laugh at the gross generalization that Kenyans are great runners because they ran to school as children, run longer mileage in training, and train at higher intensity. ³I lived right next door to school,² laughs Wilson Kipketer, world 800-meter record holder, dismissing such cookie-cutter explanations. ³I walked, nice and slow.² Some kids ran to school, some didn¹t, he says, but it¹s not why we succeed. And for every Kenyan monster-miler, there are others, like Kipketer, who gets along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the Great Rift Valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among runners in Europe and North America who have failed so miserably in bottling the Kenyan running miracle. As for empirical evidence, much has been collected by Bengt Saltin and Tim Noakes who consider such myth making (Kenyans train harder as the total explanation for their success) as pretty silly. Could Kenyan training methods be a factor in the success of some of their great athletes? Of course. Is there one clear pattern of training that almost all Kenyans ascribe to? Of course not? Even if there was, would that explain the magnitude of Kenyan success, considering that many of their training principles have been adopted, and even magnified, by athletes from other countries? Of course not!! So...I believe we'll have to just end this with the reality -- the modest claim-- the facile explanations that training is the key to Kenyan success is far too simplistic (and erroneous in key ways) to explain the phenemenon. It's obviously bio-cultural, an assertion which no reasonable observer, let alone a scientist, would dispute. On 4/29/01 12:59 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:18:03 -0700 From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Empirical evidence Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:38:37 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Empirical evidence With all due respect, what you have supplied is anecdotes, not evidence. Sure, you can find examples all over the map. If I
RE: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
Of course, it is well-known that I type way too fast and push the send button without proofing!!! YUP. Agree with you on the Kenyan stuff, but that applies to all runners not just Kenyans. Many different ways to get there. When we talk about training it's always best to refer to standard deviation from the mean. malmo And Mr. Entine. I mean it about the book. I want one. Meant to buy it long before you took over an obscure track related list-serve. -Original Message- From: sean other [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:50 AM To: malmo; Jon Entine; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence Hi Malmo, So Jon knows nothing about running but knows something about training for running (double negative). As for pontification, your post seems to fit that bill quite well. As usual, the truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes. I know both types of Kenyan athletes. The ones who do mega distance and the ones who do less than 100 km a week. I also know many Kenyan athletes who never walked to school or church but then again I know of many who walked/ran 7 to 8 km to and 7 to 8 km from school every day. Some of these lads quoted 70 to 80 km training per week. They were of course not including the 80 km a week to and from school or the morning and night time trip out to check the live stock. This leads me to believe that there are at least 3 types of succesful Kenyan Distance runners. The less than 100 km per week brigade, the guys who claim less than 100km per week but actually do a lot of supplementary training, and the mega distance guys. There seems to be little difference between the performances though. Sean --- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Took a break from the list to protest the censorship Nazis at UO. When I heard you were pontificating again I just had to come back. Jon, you know nothing about running, nor do you know nothing about training for running. Period. End of story. Citing Kipketer, an 800 meter guy, for doing 30 mpw is downright dumb. T and F 101: 800 meter is not a distance event. Besides, even John Smiths 400 guys run that much. We all laugh at the running to school myth, as well. But I'll tell you that one agent who represents many Kenyans told me of his visits there: on a any given Sunday morning, the roads will be filled with men, women and children, walking up to 10 miles to and from church. Now send me an autographed copy of your book, which is an exploration of the obvious. I'll pay the suggested retail. Read The Slave Trade (Hugh Thomas) while you're at it. your pal, malmo Quit misusing the word serendipity while your at it. It's driving me (and Mr. Safire) nuts. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 11:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence Richard: I've read most of what you site and what I wrote in no way contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices. I have also discussed this with many Kenyan runners, from Kip Keino to Ibrahim Hussein to Wilson Kipketer. They all laugh at the gross generalization that Kenyans are great runners because they ran to school as children, run longer mileage in training, and train at higher intensity. ³I lived right next door to school,² laughs Wilson Kipketer, world 800-meter record holder, dismissing such cookie-cutter explanations. ³I walked, nice and slow.² Some kids ran to school, some didn¹t, he says, but it¹s not why we succeed. And for every Kenyan monster-miler, there are others, like Kipketer, who gets along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the Great Rift Valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among runners in Europe and North America who have failed so miserably in bottling the Kenyan running miracle. As for empirical evidence, much has been collected by Bengt Saltin and Tim Noakes who consider such myth making (Kenyans train harder as the total explanation for their success) as pretty silly. Could Kenyan training methods be a factor in the success of some of their great athletes? Of course. Is there one clear pattern of training that almost all Kenyans ascribe to? Of course not? Even if there was, would that explain the magnitude of Kenyan success, considering that many of their training principles have been adopted, and even magnified, by athletes from other countries? Of course not!! So...I believe we'll
Re: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
I must know something about running, having run five marathons. Maybe not as much as Malmo the magnificent. If you knew a little bit about the physiology of running, you would know that saying that 800 meters is not a distance event is silly. Kipketer made two points: he debunked the running myth. Having been to Eldoret and visiting the schools around there, I can say for certain that NO ONE RUNS 10m TO SCHOOL/CHURCH. Yes, kids walk (or run if they choose) to school, but none more than a few km. That's what I walked/ran to school as a kid. It happens that the schools are all along one main road between Eldoret and Kapsabet, which are not even 10 miles apart -- which means that all the kids are on the road together at the same time, making it seem as if the whole world is there. You agent expert is not such an expert. If you would like an autographed copy of my book, send a check to the address below. Regards, -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
³I lived right next door to school,² laughs Wilson Kipketer, world 800-meter record holder, dismissing such cookie-cutter explanations. ³I walked, nice and slow. If they walked/ran ONE mile to school, they got a more exercise than the majority of American kids. Maybe Kipketer didn't, but many (most?) had over a mile to travel. And for every Kenyan monster-miler, there are others, like Kipketer, who gets along on less than thirty. My 800m PR came off 15-20 miles per week. The constant citing of Kipketer by people advocating this opinion over the last few years is as comical to me as the American perception of Kenyan training apparently is to Kip Keino. Of course they don't ALL run a long way to school - I have never heard a single person suggest that. How about a little study (proves nothing of course) - take the top 30 American marathoners and the top 30 Kenyan marathoners and find out what the mean distance walked/run to school is - I'm sure the difference will be statistically significant I'm still waiting for the list of sub-2:11 marathoners and sub-28:00 10K runners who do it on 30 miles per week. How about 50? - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:48 AM To: malmo; Track and Field List Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence I must know something about running, having run five marathons. -- Jon Entine I must know something about good taste, having tasted so many good people. Idi Amin From his latest book, 'Post Cards From Mecca'.
RE: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
I must know something about running, having run five marathons. Maybe not as much as Malmo the magnificent. You might be outclassed here, Jon ... check that, you ARE outclassed. Malmo has also run five marathons ... the slowest of which was 2:13. And I think he knows mare than a little bit about the physiology of running. More people would probably buy the book (which I guess would be the goal) if there was a lot of POSITIVE word-of-mouth exposure generated here and other places I can't say that you are generating that kind of buzz, on this list at least. -Brian P.S. if 800m is a distance event ... why isn't Wilson Kipketer running decent 1500's and 3k's? -Original Message- From: Jon Entine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:48 AM To: malmo; Track and Field List Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence I must know something about running, having run five marathons. Maybe not as much as Malmo the magnificent. If you knew a little bit about the physiology of running, you would know that saying that 800 meters is not a distance event is silly. Kipketer made two points: he debunked the running myth. Having been to Eldoret and visiting the schools around there, I can say for certain that NO ONE RUNS 10m TO SCHOOL/CHURCH. Yes, kids walk (or run if they choose) to school, but none more than a few km. That's what I walked/ran to school as a kid. It happens that the schools are all along one main road between Eldoret and Kapsabet, which are not even 10 miles apart -- which means that all the kids are on the road together at the same time, making it seem as if the whole world is there. You agent expert is not such an expert. If you would like an autographed copy of my book, send a check to the address below. Regards, -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
Richard: I've read most of what you site and what I wrote in no way contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices. I have also discussed this with many Kenyan runners, from Kip Keino to Ibrahim Hussein to Wilson Kipketer. They all laugh at the gross generalization that Kenyans are great runners because they ran to school as children, run longer mileage in training, and train at higher intensity. ³I lived right next door to school,² laughs Wilson Kipketer, world 800-meter record holder, dismissing such cookie-cutter explanations. ³I walked, nice and slow.² Some kids ran to school, some didn¹t, he says, but it¹s not why we succeed. And for every Kenyan monster-miler, there are others, like Kipketer, who gets along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the Great Rift Valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among runners in Europe and North America who have failed so miserably in bottling the Kenyan running miracle. As for empirical evidence, much has been collected by Bengt Saltin and Tim Noakes who consider such myth making (Kenyans train harder as the total explanation for their success) as pretty silly. Could Kenyan training methods be a factor in the success of some of their great athletes? Of course. Is there one clear pattern of training that almost all Kenyans ascribe to? Of course not? Even if there was, would that explain the magnitude of Kenyan success, considering that many of their training principles have been adopted, and even magnified, by athletes from other countries? Of course not!! So...I believe we'll have to just end this with the reality -- the modest claim-- the facile explanations that training is the key to Kenyan success is far too simplistic (and erroneous in key ways) to explain the phenemenon. It's obviously bio-cultural, an assertion which no reasonable observer, let alone a scientist, would dispute. On 4/29/01 12:59 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:18:03 -0700 From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Empirical evidence Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:38:37 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Empirical evidence With all due respect, what you have supplied is anecdotes, not evidence. Sure, you can find examples all over the map. If I find one example of a low intensity, low mileage champion runner, I can't generalize that that applies to all Kenyans, any more than I could take the results of one race and say that indicates a trend. The empirical evidence would result from a much larger database of examples. I don't say for certain that Kenyans train less than Americans. What I do say without any doubt is that glib statements that Kenyan success can be explained by the fact that they train more is not only pure speculation, it is not supported by the evidence. My argument is against environmental determinism, not for genetic determinism. Of course training plays a role--more in some cases, less in others. Jon Are you saying that you're observation, which contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices (e.g., Train Hard Run Easy, Running Research News, magazine articles, interviews with Americans and Europeans who train with the Kenyans, etc.), is the only valid viewpoint? You have failed your own standard because you have not offered substantial evidence either. I think you before you can make such a broad contradictory statement that you need to do an indepth empirical study that takes the training regimens for the top athletes from selected nations and statistically compare the training levels. I know that you'll have some difficulty in getting accurate training records from the Kenyans because many do not keep training logs, and even then, the recorded distances and times may be inaccurate for technological reasons. Given the apparent lack of evidence we have to go with the majority opinion of those who have independently observed these patterns--Kenyans tend to train harder than other athletes around the world, and this likely explains much of their current advantage. As for the Falmouth times, Buck's analysis is insightful. In addition, you only mentioned 1982. The other years shown also had 5-7 finishers under 32:50, indicating the fields in each year were of relatively consistent quality. I agree that group training can have a significant effect. My own running career would go up when I could train with others, and down when I was on my own. I had 4 years of training on my own out of a 12 year truly competitive career, and those years were always worse than the previous year in terms of competitive results, and I had better succeeding years after 3
RE: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence
Took a break from the list to protest the censorship Nazis at UO. When I heard you were pontificating again I just had to come back. Jon, you know nothing about running, nor do you know nothing about training for running. Period. End of story. Citing Kipketer, an 800 meter guy, for doing 30 mpw is downright dumb. T and F 101: 800 meter is not a distance event. Besides, even John Smiths 400 guys run that much. We all laugh at the running to school myth, as well. But I'll tell you that one agent who represents many Kenyans told me of his visits there: on a any given Sunday morning, the roads will be filled with men, women and children, walking up to 10 miles to and from church. Now send me an autographed copy of your book, which is an exploration of the obvious. I'll pay the suggested retail. Read The Slave Trade (Hugh Thomas) while you're at it. your pal, malmo Quit misusing the word serendipity while your at it. It's driving me (and Mr. Safire) nuts. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 11:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Re: empirical evidence Richard: I've read most of what you site and what I wrote in no way contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices. I have also discussed this with many Kenyan runners, from Kip Keino to Ibrahim Hussein to Wilson Kipketer. They all laugh at the gross generalization that Kenyans are great runners because they ran to school as children, run longer mileage in training, and train at higher intensity. ³I lived right next door to school,² laughs Wilson Kipketer, world 800-meter record holder, dismissing such cookie-cutter explanations. ³I walked, nice and slow.² Some kids ran to school, some didn¹t, he says, but it¹s not why we succeed. And for every Kenyan monster-miler, there are others, like Kipketer, who gets along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the Great Rift Valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among runners in Europe and North America who have failed so miserably in bottling the Kenyan running miracle. As for empirical evidence, much has been collected by Bengt Saltin and Tim Noakes who consider such myth making (Kenyans train harder as the total explanation for their success) as pretty silly. Could Kenyan training methods be a factor in the success of some of their great athletes? Of course. Is there one clear pattern of training that almost all Kenyans ascribe to? Of course not? Even if there was, would that explain the magnitude of Kenyan success, considering that many of their training principles have been adopted, and even magnified, by athletes from other countries? Of course not!! So...I believe we'll have to just end this with the reality -- the modest claim-- the facile explanations that training is the key to Kenyan success is far too simplistic (and erroneous in key ways) to explain the phenemenon. It's obviously bio-cultural, an assertion which no reasonable observer, let alone a scientist, would dispute. On 4/29/01 12:59 PM, t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:18:03 -0700 From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Empirical evidence Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:38:37 -0700 From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Empirical evidence With all due respect, what you have supplied is anecdotes, not evidence. Sure, you can find examples all over the map. If I find one example of a low intensity, low mileage champion runner, I can't generalize that that applies to all Kenyans, any more than I could take the results of one race and say that indicates a trend. The empirical evidence would result from a much larger database of examples. I don't say for certain that Kenyans train less than Americans. What I do say without any doubt is that glib statements that Kenyan success can be explained by the fact that they train more is not only pure speculation, it is not supported by the evidence. My argument is against environmental determinism, not for genetic determinism. Of course training plays a role--more in some cases, less in others. Jon Are you saying that you're observation, which contradicts virtually all published assessments of Kenyan training practices (e.g., Train Hard Run Easy, Running Research News, magazine articles, interviews with Americans and Europeans who train with the Kenyans, etc.), is the only valid viewpoint? You have failed your own standard because you have not offered substantial evidence either. I think you before you can make such a broad contradictory statement that you need to do
