Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Cafe - Place to buy and consume light snacks and NON-Alcoholic Drinks (Tea, Coffee, Coke etc) on site. Usually Unlicensed. Good luck finding one in Eastern Europe. Can't survive without selling booze. Alcohol is essential for cafe to survive but otherwise it is clearly cafe. Pub - Place to buy and consume Alcoholic Drinks on site, (may also retail Non-Alcoholic Drinks, Snacks and sometimes Food) Mostly food and alcohol, but heavy influence of second one. Food usually not so bad, but very expensive. But mostly I agree with definition. Bar - Place to buy Alcoholic Drinks within a large establishment, maybe with a hotel, or holiday complex, may share its seating with other vendors. Not only. Bars sometimes are single entities, combined with several slot machines. The line is weather it sells Beer, or other Alcoholic Beverages, Line to distuingish what? Peter. Cheers, also Peter :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/20 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org In my book its easy. Cafe - Place to buy and consume light snacks and NON-Alcoholic Drinks (Tea, Coffee, Coke etc) on site. Usually Unlicensed. in many countries you will find alcohol in cafés as well. In a café I would before all expect a professional coffee-machine and someone able to use it properly. Then I would expect a certain style (chairs and tables), opened usually from morning (or noon) to the evening, sometimes nighttime, almost never till very late. Snacks I would usually replace with cake and cookies. Pub - Place to buy and consume Alcoholic Drinks on site, (may also retail Non-Alcoholic Drinks, Snacks and sometimes Food) might also retail alcoholic drinks (in Germany and Italy, they do all, still a German Pub will look different (style) from what the Germans (and not only) call an Irish Pub, which is precisely corresponding to a Pub in the UK/Ireland. Most of the irish pubs offer a small selection of food and snacks, german pubs often don't offer food (unless they call themselfes restaurant). They (mostly, nearly all) do offer draught beer. Bar - Place to buy Alcoholic Drinks within a large establishment, maybe with a hotel, or holiday complex, may share its seating with other vendors. Bars, cafés, restaurants and pubs can all be inside hotels and holiday complexes. You might also very often find a bar in pubs and cafés, usually 1. in northern europe there are mainly night bars (I leave milk bars out of this thread), i.e. mostly frequented at night, they will usually have a professional bartender that mixes all kind of cocktails and longdrinks, probably also have small concerts, sometimes are self service. The seating will be bar stools at the counter and maybe lounge tables and sofas for relaxing. Ususally no food (or just snacks). Sometimes the offer draught beer, sometimes (probably more often) they don't. 2. in southern europe the bar concept is different and goes from breakfast, lunch to pre-dinner. They serve all kind of drinks (also alcoholic), and often offer a small selection of dishes for lunch. In Italy many of them also sell cigarettes. The main use is still serving coffee. They change their use during the day: from (northern europe) café in the morning, to lunch-time-place at noon (kind of cheap pasta restaurant / fast-food like sandwiches) to a place to get an aperitiv before dinner. This kind of bar is found in Italy, Spain, southern France, Portugal, ...). They will (almost all) have a professional coffee machine. Still these places vary from country/culture to culture. IMHO we should continue the way we are going. E.g. I would recommend to tag an Italian bar with amenity=bar but expect something different if I navigate to a Bar in Rome than I would if I went to a Bar in Berlin. Let the mapuser interpret the available information. All Italian Bars call themselves bar. For an Italian (casual) mapper it will be confusing to tag a bar with café (and still café doesn't describe the place well, as an Italian Bar is not a Viennese Café). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. David On 20/01/2010 12:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/1/20 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org mailto:pchi...@bcs.org In my book its easy. Cafe - Place to buy and consume light snacks and NON-Alcoholic Drinks (Tea, Coffee, Coke etc) on site. Usually Unlicensed. in many countries you will find alcohol in cafés as well. In a café I would before all expect a professional coffee-machine and someone able to use it properly. Then I would expect a certain style (chairs and tables), opened usually from morning (or noon) to the evening, sometimes nighttime, almost never till very late. Snacks I would usually replace with cake and cookies. Pub - Place to buy and consume Alcoholic Drinks on site, (may also retail Non-Alcoholic Drinks, Snacks and sometimes Food) might also retail alcoholic drinks (in Germany and Italy, they do all, still a German Pub will look different (style) from what the Germans (and not only) call an Irish Pub, which is precisely corresponding to a Pub in the UK/Ireland. Most of the irish pubs offer a small selection of food and snacks, german pubs often don't offer food (unless they call themselfes restaurant). They (mostly, nearly all) do offer draught beer. Bar - Place to buy Alcoholic Drinks within a large establishment, maybe with a hotel, or holiday complex, may share its seating with other vendors. Bars, cafés, restaurants and pubs can all be inside hotels and holiday complexes. You might also very often find a bar in pubs and cafés, usually 1. in northern europe there are mainly night bars (I leave milk bars out of this thread), i.e. mostly frequented at night, they will usually have a professional bartender that mixes all kind of cocktails and longdrinks, probably also have small concerts, sometimes are self service. The seating will be bar stools at the counter and maybe lounge tables and sofas for relaxing. Ususally no food (or just snacks). Sometimes the offer draught beer, sometimes (probably more often) they don't. 2. in southern europe the bar concept is different and goes from breakfast, lunch to pre-dinner. They serve all kind of drinks (also alcoholic), and often offer a small selection of dishes for lunch. In Italy many of them also sell cigarettes. The main use is still serving coffee. They change their use during the day: from (northern europe) café in the morning, to lunch-time-place at noon (kind of cheap pasta restaurant / fast-food like sandwiches) to a place to get an aperitiv before dinner. This kind of bar is found in Italy, Spain, southern France, Portugal, ...). They will (almost all) have a professional coffee machine. Still these places vary from country/culture to culture. IMHO we should continue the way we are going. E.g. I would recommend to tag an Italian bar with amenity=bar but expect something different if I navigate to a Bar in Rome than I would if I went to a Bar in Berlin. Let the mapuser interpret the available information. All Italian Bars call themselves bar. For an Italian (casual) mapper it will be confusing to tag a bar with café (and still café doesn't describe the place well, as an Italian Bar is not a Viennese Café). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Still these places vary from country/culture to culture. IMHO we should continue the way we are going. E.g. I would recommend to tag an Italian bar with amenity=bar but expect something different if I navigate to a Bar in Rome than I would if I went to a Bar in Berlin. Let the mapuser interpret the available information. All Italian Bars call themselves bar. For an Italian (casual) mapper it will be confusing to tag a bar with café (and still café doesn't describe the place well, as an Italian Bar is not a Viennese Café). Seconded. There will be always differences, and we can't cover it all by tagging. Let's do minimum we can. Cheers, Martin P. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/20 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. +1, might work well in English-speaking countries (and where it applies, sometimes establishments have just a name zum goldenen Hirsch and no category in it), all the rest still will have to be evaluated - but I agree: if a bar in Italy is calling themself bar, I would tag it as amenity=bar. btw.: there are also night-clubs and lounges, and there is some overlapping in the definitions. Also for these the self-classification will mostly help. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:00 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. This sounds very good at first sight, but absolutely unworkable at second. Do you really go into The Golden Rose and ask for the owner, only to ask him what kind of business he runs? And things get even more convoluted if you go to non-English speaking countries. Do you ask him to answer you in English? Or do you take the one that sounds closest to whatever he says it is? Or the one that the dictionary says it corresponds to? -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
2010/1/20 Anthony o...@inbox.org: On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: The Dutch cafe example is parallel to the motel / love_hotel example from Brazil and other countries. Sometimes a term has quite different uses in different cultures, and these are traps for all travellers. The question of whether the same tag has the same meaning wherever it is or whether meaning has to be gained from context, as we do now with traditional paper based maps, remains in discussion. The other question is whether or not OSM wants to be a map or a travel guide. I'm liking more and more the suggestion to tag the cafe/motel with building=yes and addr:*=*, and leave the rest to the travel guides and yellow pages. Perhaps power plants are big and recognizable enough to be an exception to this rule, but when you have to go inside an establishment and read their menu before you can determine how to tag the place, are we really mapping what's on the ground? We map everything we can. And POIs btw is one big reason for lot of people to map. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/1/20 Anthony o...@inbox.org On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.comwrote: We map everything we can. What in the world is that supposed to mean? It's either untrue (as there are plenty of things that can be mapped which aren't mapped) or begs the question. no, it's not untrue. It's simply not finished (nor will it ever be). Then it begs the question, which is what we should be mapping *today*, not at some indefinite point in the future (or, possibly, never at all). I have data on the homeowner of every single family residence in Hillsborough County. Should I map that? go and do it, and see what happens. I'm not interested in doing it, as a map is not a good place to store such information. Phone book information belongs in a phone book, not a map. How about the phone numbers of every land-line in the United States? Do you have the data as well? Or is this just rethorical? I have it. It's simply not finished (nor will it ever be). ;) What evidence do you have for that? What's a lot of people? When you say it's one big reason, are you saying they wouldn't map at all were it not for the ability to map what's being sold in a particular store? keep it low. Everybody maps whatever she likes, and if she's not interested you will not be able to force her. You don't want to map POIs? Don't do it. Fine with me, that's what I'm doing (*). I also occasionally make a suggestion that a map might not be the best place to store such information. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything, just trying to use reason. (*) Sort of. I do map POIs, and I have no problem with mapping POIs. What I think is silly and counter-productive is tagging those POIs with certain details, like what the ratio of alcoholic beverage to food sales was last year. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
2010/1/20 Anthony o...@inbox.org I'm not interested in doing it, as a map is not a good place to store such information. Phone book information belongs in a phone book, not a map. I will add some very brief on the subject as a long and convoluted series of mails tend to bore quite a bit, but OSM is not a map. OSM is a database. You can create a map out of that database and that's it. I understand why you don't want to tag some elements with too much details, and to some extent, I agree with you. However, I take the view that people will want to map what they want and I don't care as long as I can get the information I need without major problems. It is always up to the renderer to decide what should be displayed. A map will never be overloaded unless you are dumb enough to try to render everything you have entered in the database. You are probably right that some information belongs to yellow pages, but right now, I can't easily link both OSM and yellow pages easily without OSM containing enough data. At some point, it would be great to have the semantic web up and running but you are far from that. There is no need to get upset like this. You might yell as much as you want, people will still enter the data they want. You are always so active on the mailing list that you have effectively become inaudible to me. I suspect I might not be the only one that shares that feeling. Just a little rant, but please chill down as there is no need to get so excited like this: you have no control over the situation, simple as that. Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.comwrote: Just a little rant, but please chill down as there is no need to get so excited like this: you have no control over the situation, simple as that. The only thing I have to say about that is that the very idea of keeping directory data out of OSM is one I got from someone else on this list. So I think I do have *some* control over the situation, in that presenting reasonable arguments on the list can convince reasonable people to rethink things. And as I've written to you privately. I'm not upset or excited. At least I wasn't until the emails from you and Martin suggesting that I'm trying to force people to do certain things. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I'm just relaying what I thought was a good suggestion. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
2010/1/20 Anthony o...@inbox.org On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: Just a little rant, but please chill down as there is no need to get so excited like this: you have no control over the situation, simple as that. The only thing I have to say about that is that the very idea of keeping directory data out of OSM is one I got from someone else on this list. So I think I do have *some* control over the situation, in that presenting reasonable arguments on the list can convince reasonable people to rethink things. And as I've written to you privately. I'm not upset or excited. At least I wasn't until the emails from you and Martin suggesting that I'm trying to force people to do certain things. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I'm just relaying what I thought was a good suggestion. I doubt you have seen many of my emails forcing people to do certain things :) Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
2010/1/20 Anthony o...@inbox.org On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/1/20 Anthony o...@inbox.org On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.comwrote: We map everything we can. What in the world is that supposed to mean? It's either untrue (as there are plenty of things that can be mapped which aren't mapped) or begs the question. no, it's not untrue. It's simply not finished (nor will it ever be). Then it begs the question, which is what we should be mapping *today*, not at some indefinite point in the future (or, possibly, never at all). maybe I was hard to understand: *today* *you* should map what *you* want, *I* will map what *I* want, and *they* are mapping what *they* want. That's the principle. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What do we map
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: We map everything we can. And POIs btw is one big reason for lot of people to map. Originally I didn't realise that there was no special reason for which shops had tagged and which didn't, so I only 'collected' POIs which had tags already. Now I walk down a street a photograph each shop front in turn and put each one in the database. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
Instead: Would it be more effective to store POI's in an open directory (i.e. indexed by address), rather than in the OSM database (i.e. indexed by lat/long)? I think it's an interesting question. I'm not convinced. The original argument was that it is easier to update when the business moves - you just change the address. I'd argue the opposite; when a new business opens in place of the previous business, you only need to update the business name / type. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, David Earl wrote: I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. David In Au McDonalds call themselves Family Restaurants and I call them Fast Food. The subjective work of the surveyor may be far more objective than the subjective work of the owner. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/20 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org In my book its easy. Cafe Usually Unlicensed. Definitely I would not put licenses and other legal stuff into the definition. They differ almost certainly in different countries, are of no importance to the client and hard to research. They might even differ from one city / state to another. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: ... To meet both problems you can only do this: alcohol=yes coffee=no pastries=yes egg chips=yes I like this approach. It makes much more sense than either of the other suggestions, i.e.: 1) inventing complex explicit definitions of what a cafe is, internationally or 2) assuming complex (implicit) definitions of what a cafe is, and having this differ from place to place ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com writes: 2010/1/20 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org In my book its easy. Cafe Usually Unlicensed. Definitely I would not put licenses and other legal stuff into the definition. They differ almost certainly in different countries, are of no importance to the client and hard to research. They might even differ from one city / state to another. The primary point is actually not about the license but whether or not they serve alcohol. Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com writes: On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: ... To meet both problems you can only do this: alcohol=yes coffee=no pastries=yes egg chips=yes I like this approach. I don't. I don't want to revisit each place each week to see whether the menu has changed. It makes much more sense than either of the other suggestions, i.e.: 1) inventing complex explicit definitions of what a cafe is, internationally or 2) assuming complex (implicit) definitions of what a cafe is, and having this differ from place to place Well, that's the way it is. The definitions have to be general enough so that they can be finetuned to match local circumstances. It would be foolish to assume that a café in Hongkong looks exactly the same as in Vienna. Also, if you only tag the menu instead of categorizing the place you only put the burden on the consumer of the data. Otherwise you get 10 icons on the map for each café (coffee, pastries, eggchips, ...). Or, you have to ask your router to guide you to a place where they have beefsteak, beer and rum if you feel like that. Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
Plus, you could potentially end up with hundreds of different tags defined, if a lot of people decided to add tags for their favorite dishes. It seems more reasonable to tag the general cuisine, whether food is available, whether alcohol is available, whether reservations are required (usually only at fancier establishments), and whether the establishment allows children (in the USA, at least, places that mostly deal in alcoholic beverages, rather than food, such as bars or nightclubs, are generally required to be limited to adults only by the terms of their license, but restaurants are generally open to all ages, even if they have alcoholic beverages on the menu). -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Matthias Julius li...@julius-net.net Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:28:45 To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com writes: On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: ... To meet both problems you can only do this: alcohol=yes coffee=no pastries=yes egg chips=yes I like this approach. I don't. I don't want to revisit each place each week to see whether the menu has changed. It makes much more sense than either of the other suggestions, i.e.: 1) inventing complex explicit definitions of what a cafe is, internationally or 2) assuming complex (implicit) definitions of what a cafe is, and having this differ from place to place Well, that's the way it is. The definitions have to be general enough so that they can be finetuned to match local circumstances. It would be foolish to assume that a café in Hongkong looks exactly the same as in Vienna. Also, if you only tag the menu instead of categorizing the place you only put the burden on the consumer of the data. Otherwise you get 10 icons on the map for each café (coffee, pastries, eggchips, ...). Or, you have to ask your router to guide you to a place where they have beefsteak, beer and rum if you feel like that. Matthias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Matthias Julius li...@julius-net.net wrote: On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: ... To meet both problems you can only do this: alcohol=yes coffee=no pastries=yes egg chips=yes I like this approach. I don't. I don't want to revisit each place each week to see whether the menu has changed. If a cafe is an amenity=cafe only if A, B and C, you would have to revisit each week, anyway, to check that it's still A, B and C. My point is that I like the approach of tagging A, B and C, instead. It would be foolish to assume that a café in Hongkong looks exactly the same as in Vienna. Yes...hence why I like the approach of tagging what you mean... Also, if you only tag the menu instead of categorizing the place you only put the burden on the consumer of the data. I disagree. If a cafe is a concept that's easily defined and internationally consistent, that's great, and telling the consumer there's a cafe is great. But if it isn't, then telling the consumer there's a cafe puts MORE burden on them to work out what that means, than specifically telling them there's a place you can get coffee and snacks, and Otherwise you get 10 icons on the map for each café (coffee, pastries, eggchips, ...). You don't have to render everything. Or, you have to ask your router to guide you to a place where they have beefsteak, beer and rum if you feel like that. That'd be great! I should mention that I'm not suggesting we completely scrap the amenity=* tag - but if we're finding it hard to agree on a definition of amenity=cafe, that would suggest to me it's not a good tag! Can we agree on a definition for amenity=food_or_drink_outlet, used in combination with the specifics? Much more likely, I think. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 11:46 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: ... It seems more reasonable to tag the general cuisine, whether food is available, whether alcohol is available, whether reservations are required (usually only at fancier establishments), and whether the establishment allows children I think this is good... the point is to avoid using tags that have a fuzzy or variable meaning. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
At 2010-01-20 17:46, John F. Eldredge wrote: It seems more reasonable to tag the general cuisine, whether food is available, whether alcohol is available, whether reservations are required (usually only at fancier establishments), and whether the establishment allows children (in the USA, at least, places that mostly deal in alcoholic beverages, rather than food, such as bars or nightclubs, are generally required to be limited to adults only by the terms of their license, but restaurants are generally open to all ages, even if they have alcoholic beverages on the menu). This more or less reminds me of the way I'm tagging fuel stations, with tags to indicate availability of diesel, propane, CNG, snacks, car wash, car repair, etc. Works well. FWIW, my understanding of bar/pub/cafe in the US has been: cafe: Espresso/coffee drinks, soft drinks, baked goods, pre-packed food. Starbucks, Coffee Bean, former Diedrichs, etc. are good examples. bar: Alcohol, maybe with dancing. No food to speak of (maybe bar snacks like nuts). pub: Bars that serve food. There are clearly overlaps, like Panera Bread, which, while its stock trades with and is analyzed as Starbucks competitor, is really more of a restaurant. Yard House is another good example, with easily half the clientele going just to drink beer, but yet they have dining rooms and a very good menu (IMO). I tag this as restaurant also. If you've patronized the place you are mapping, it should be straightforward to pick the major character of it for the amenity=* tag. Otherwise, guess from the name, signboards, or research. Add other tags to indicate the fuels available or entry requirements. I like the following, all optional of course: - cuisine=* - alcohol=yes|no - or more accurately alcohol=beer;wine;spirits (lots of smaller restaurants in the US are beer/wine only) - minimum_age=* (some places are 21, others 18 for different reasons. Maybe alcohol as a value to indicate the legal drinking age, in case it changes) - dancing=yes|no - music=no|band;dj - music:type=rock;oldies;salsa;etc. - sport=billiards;darts;projectile_vomiting :) - smoking=no|yes|patio - smoking:type=cigarette;cigar;pipe - cannabis=yes (bringing it back around to the subject of the thread :) ) -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/21 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: ... To meet both problems you can only do this: alcohol=yes coffee=no pastries=yes egg chips=yes I like this approach. yes, it's OK, just it doesn't tell you whether to expect a bar or a café ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
2010/1/21 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.netalan_mintz%2b...@earthlink.net - cannabis=yes (bringing it back around to the subject of the thread :) ) if that's the question I would tag it amenity=coffeeshop and not amenity=cafe, cannabis=yes. IMHO the difference between a cafe and a coffeeshop is too big to be the same tag. Or do you want everybody looking for a cafe having to check that there is no cannabis=yes attached? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes
Alan Mintz wrote: FWIW, my understanding of bar/pub/cafe in the US has been: cafe: Espresso/coffee drinks, soft drinks, baked goods, pre-packed food. Starbucks, Coffee Bean, former Diedrichs, etc. are good examples. This may be something that varies from region to region of the USA. In my experience, in the southeast USA, what you describe above would probably be called a coffeehouse. A cafe is more likely to be an informal restaurant, focusing on food rather than coffee. While coffee will likely be on the menu, the only choices will likely be regular-vs.-decaffeinated, rather than anything fancier. Also, a so-called cafe is less likely to have alcoholic beverages for sale than a so-called restaurant. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
