Re: [Tagging] type for natural=tree (leaved - leafed)
On 07.07.2013 18:33, fly wrote: Could an BE-speaking person please tell me what the right spelling for broad_leafed is. Numbers are almost even in the data. Probably, a nice task for a bot. It was originally broad_leafed in the Wiki, but it was considered a spelling error and therefore it was changed. See: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:natural%3Dtree#Typo_.22broad_leafed.22.3F On the other hand, I wonder if it is useful to use type=* and not tree_type=* or tree:type=* as type is the key for relations and it is not that good to use different meanings of one key. type=* for trees and relations were introduced in times when people didn't care about this. Now it's implemented like this in all applications and editors, so you cannot change it without breaking something. Unification with wood=* would also be desirable (e.g. foliage=* has been suggested), but has not been approached so far for the same reason. From a biological point of view, neither of these tags is useful. Woods should better be classified by plant community, and for single trees species=* already implies foliage. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] type for natural=tree (leaved - leafed)
There are species that are both broad-leaved and evergreen. One example would be magnolia trees. They drop old leaves in the spring, as new leaves grow. At no time is the tree leafless. John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 07.07.2013 18:33, schrieb fly: Hey Could an BE-speaking person please tell me what the right spelling for broad_leafed is. Numbers are almost even in the data. Probably, a nice task for a bot. Sorry, numbers are towards leaved. On the other hand, I wonder if it is useful to use type=* and not tree_type=* or tree:type=* as type is the key for relations and it is not that good to use different meanings of one key. On further thought, I'd go for type=deciduous, rather than broad-lea[fv]ed. Not quite the same thing (I think larches are deciduous but not broad-leaved) but I think it's the normal technical term (the others being evergreen). __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] type for natural=tree (leaved - leafed)
Am 07.07.2013 19:32, schrieb Tobias Knerr: On 07.07.2013 18:59, John Sturdy wrote: On further thought, I'd go for type=deciduous, rather than broad-lea[fv]ed. Not quite the same thing (I think larches are deciduous but not broad-leaved) but I think it's the normal technical term (the others being evergreen). That would make the transition quite hard - the current data is based on a different distinction and, as you say, the two are not equivalent. Perhaps more importantly, broad-leaved vs. coniferous is the obvious visual distinction and therefore more useful for rendering and easier to identify without botanical knowledge (except in winter). +1 A separate tag (deciduous=yes/no?) would make more sense because the two attributes are orthogonal. You can already use genus=*, species=* and taxon=*, but if you need this go ahead. fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Childcare Tag
Hi, I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 Thanks, Alyssa. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Am 09.07.2013 17:35, schrieb alyssa wright: Hey Alyssa I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I really do not see any major changes to the rejected version 1 in 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare My main concern is that deprecating amenity=kindergarden will not work/be accepted and that it is not flexible enough, e.g. you can not use it with other amenities. Best would be to find a better key or prekey to get it working. If you want to read the discussions please have a look at the archive: version 1: spring 2011 version 2: may and june 2013 Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Sorry, I don't really follow. So some questions inline: On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:35 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 09.07.2013 17:35, schrieb alyssa wright: Hey Alyssa I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I really do not see any major changes to the rejected version 1 in 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare My main concern is that deprecating amenity=kindergarden will not work/be accepted and that it is not flexible enough, e.g. you can not use it with other amenities. Even if there aren't major changes to the proposals perhaps the needs of OSM have shifted since 2011. So not sure I follow on why a previous rejection dictates a current one. Which tag isn't flexible enough (not sure what It refers to in your sentence). It seems like it takes into account the kindergarden scope as well as other childcare spaces, such as nursery, orphanage. It allows for more specificity than the existing kindergarden tab as well as cultural differences. Is it typical for amenity tags to be used with other amenities? Is there something in this proposal that stops such combinations? I've reviewed amenity=library and amenity=restaurant and don't see the difference in approach. But again, I'm new to this so it might be more subtle than I realize. Best would be to find a better key or prekey to get it working. Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? If you want to read the discussions please have a look at the archive: version 1: spring 2011 version 2: may and june 2013 Thanks, Alyssa. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
There are no approved tags in OSM. You can use any tag you want, so if the childcare tags suit you, use them. I agree that discussion and documentation are very helpful, but a few negative votes (even thousands of negative votes) cannot stop the tag being used. There are no tag police, no approval committee and no one with any right to force tags to conform. If you use an unusual tag it will simply be ignored by renderers and other data consumers, but if it becomes popular they may well start to use it. Tag use has to start somewhere and that is not simply a vote from a handful of unrepresentative people in the wiki. Cheers, Chris User: chillly alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 Thanks, Alyssa. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Not trying to provoke a fight, just honestly confused as to the point of this process. Thanks, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: There are no approved tags in OSM. You can use any tag you want, so if the childcare tags suit you, use them. I agree that discussion and documentation are very helpful, but a few negative votes (even thousands of negative votes) cannot stop the tag being used. There are no tag police, no approval committee and no one with any right to force tags to conform. If you use an unusual tag it will simply be ignored by renderers and other data consumers, but if it becomes popular they may well start to use it. Tag use has to start somewhere and that is not simply a vote from a handful of unrepresentative people in the wiki. Cheers, Chris User: chillly alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 Thanks, Alyssa. -- Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Hi, On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Thanks. I'm beginning to get a better sense of how things operate. Appreciate the patience. That said -- how does one move a proposed tag to a vote? Like can I call one right now? Best, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
It would probably be good to re-open discussion (and add your voice to it, particularly as you have an interest in using such a tag); after that, I think this one could be ready to vote on. __John On 7/9/13, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks. I'm beginning to get a better sense of how things operate. Appreciate the patience. That said -- how does one move a proposed tag to a vote? Like can I call one right now? Best, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (natural=rock)
It's actually not a feature proposal, but a clarification and cleanup proposal. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/natural%3Drock_cleanup -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:13 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Because some people like voting. Some people like bureaucracy, and rules of order, and all that, and so we have one for them. What kind of free-for-all would it be if we didn't have room for those whose idea of a good time is having a lot of structure? - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Thanks Serge for the clarification. Super helpful. So as John suggested, I'll add my feedback to the existing thread and ask for a vote as I too enjoy voting. Best, Alyssa. On Jul 9, 2013, at 5:42 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:13 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Because some people like voting. Some people like bureaucracy, and rules of order, and all that, and so we have one for them. What kind of free-for-all would it be if we didn't have room for those whose idea of a good time is having a lot of structure? - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
