Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
sent from a phone > Am 29.07.2015 um 18:37 schrieb Daniel Koć : > > highway:class:pl=S/A/GP/G > highway:category:pl=2/4/6/7 (the number is the same as the corresponding > admin_level) category and class are very generic terms, if you can specify more precisely the kind of class/category it would be better, e.g. maintenance_level=2/4/6/7 or highway:admin_level=2/4/6/7 (no pl / Polish language tag needed there IMHO). In the first example the pl should be PL (Poland, not Polish). cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
W dniu 29.07.2015 17:01, Martin Koppenhoefer napisał(a): This is admittedly only the German situation but my guess is that many other countries operate in a similar way (i.e. do have more complex road classes internally than what is visible from signposted ref). We have similar discussion about class of roads in Poland (this part is in English, because the guest user joined): http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=519584#p519584 I was also asking few days ago about "internal" classification in different countries, because the proposed scheme for Poland was: highway:class:pl=S/A/GP/G highway:category:pl=2/4/6/7 (the number is the same as the corresponding admin_level) [ https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-July/025649.html ] I am interested in rendering road (and railway) networks on the world level for default OSM map style. Currently it's probably not possible, but I guess what users expect is to see the - more or less - regular network for all the countries and regions, regardless of technical/local highway class or category changes. Any gap there mean we're drifting away from the functional model, which is needed there instead of purely technical one. But maybe if we have the local technical classifications tagged, we could use global classes for such a functional view? Or maybe there is another approach to show such coherent transport networks? -- "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down" [A. Cohen] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
sent from a phone > Am 29.07.2015 um 15:08 schrieb Andrew Guertin : > > I think that this breaks a router's idea that primary is "better" than > secondary, and I think that this problem is exactly why people advocate for > not following official classification. I believe the term "official classification" is often mistaken or at least not thoroughly looked at. Often there is more than one official classification: visible and obvious is the maintaining entity, e.g. the country, state or municipality level, but what is not so well known and not visible easily is the conceptual level/class of connection roads (importance of connection) which together with the estimated traffic intensity and available funds and topographical setting and political processes determine the actual road that will be built (or enhanced). E.g. in Germany the official classification that most people are aware of is Bundesstraße (nationwide network) Landesstraße (state maintained network) Kreisstraße (Landkreis maintained network, slightly bigger than municipality) But if you look at the planning guidelines and standards you will see much more different types, e.g here: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbindungsfunktion#Verbindungsfunktionsstufen there are ~categories (A-E, inside or outside of settlements, with or without adjacent buildings) ~levels of connection functions (I - VI, what does the road connect) The result of the combination of these 2 groups is the road class (e.g. B III), in theory 30 different classes, but not all combinations make sense. This is admittedly only the German situation but my guess is that many other countries operate in a similar way (i.e. do have more complex road classes internally than what is visible from signposted ref). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
A better router might weight physical attributes such as lanes, surface and effective speed more prominently than heuristics based on logical stuff like administrative classifications and legal maximum speeds. Artificially manipulating the tagging to influence the results of routing algorithms is not the way to go - there is name for that... If the government say its primary, then it's primary, unless you want to replace that with subjective assessments. On 29 July 2015 15:08:33 CEST, Andrew Guertin wrote: >On 07/29/2015 07:11 AM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: >> Routers can already use 'prefer primary to secondary' worldwide. >> Nowhere in the OSM world is secondary defined as better than primary. >> In any given area. a car router can confidently prefer 'primary'. > >Based on what John Willis has said about tagging in Japan, I don't >think >this is true. > > From what I understand from his previous posts to this and other OSM >mailing lists, the OSM tagging in Japan follows the official >classification, and often results in small windy roads through cities >that are historically important being marked as primary, while modern >bypass roads are marked as secondary or even lower. > >I think that this breaks a router's idea that primary is "better" than >secondary, and I think that this problem is exactly why people advocate > >for not following official classification. > >--Andrew > >___ >Tagging mailing list >Tagging@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
On 07/29/2015 07:11 AM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: Routers can already use 'prefer primary to secondary' worldwide. Nowhere in the OSM world is secondary defined as better than primary. In any given area. a car router can confidently prefer 'primary'. Based on what John Willis has said about tagging in Japan, I don't think this is true. From what I understand from his previous posts to this and other OSM mailing lists, the OSM tagging in Japan follows the official classification, and often results in small windy roads through cities that are historically important being marked as primary, while modern bypass roads are marked as secondary or even lower. I think that this breaks a router's idea that primary is "better" than secondary, and I think that this problem is exactly why people advocate for not following official classification. --Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
What I try to say is that you should not map a important road for large distances as "secondary + works_as_primary" just because it is a smaller, has a different surface, a different ref or whatever. Then (large distance, important road) it is a primary road IMHO, regardless of any other tags. If one downgrades such a road to secondary, the router can no longer prefer it over other (real secondary) roads. (as you wrote) Perhaps Ralph Aytoun expressed it better. But I tried to say the same as he. Of course we shouldn't tag secondary or primary roads as trunk road or motorways, but secondary & primary roads should only be tagged based on their function, not on their appearance. regards m On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 1:11 PM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: > On 29/07/2015, Marc Gemis wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 5:29 PM, moltonel 3x Combo > > wrote: > > > >> A router won't care about classification differences between far away > >> places like Germany to Ethiopia. They just care about taking the best > >> road in the area, and as long as OSM is locally consistent, this > >> works. Even if a trunk turns into a primary for no physical reason and > >> > > > > Seems like I didn't make my point correctly. > > I was trying to ask for global consistency so the router can use the same > > default weights for street types, everywhere in the world. Something > like > > 'prefer primary roads over secondary' roads to travel large distances. > > Routers can already use 'prefer primary to secondary' worldwide. > Nowhere in the OSM world is secondary defined as better than primary. > In any given area. a car router can confidently prefer 'primary'. > > What's true is that 'primary is X times better than secondary' will > have different X values from one place to the next. But the > differences between section of a given road can already be more > important than the average difference between primary and secondary > (for example an Irish secondary´s maxspeed can go from 60 to 100, but > a primary isn´t generally 1.6x better than a secondary). > > Consider also the case of motorways : in all countries I've driven in > they are very clearly defined and have legal specificities. OSM > couldn't afford to mistake a motoway with something else. Yet the > difference between a motorway and the next best thing is bigger in > Germany than in Ireland. > > TD;DR: It's naive to think that routers can make a good decision using > the highway tag alone. Harmonising highway tag worldwide would be of > little use, and it would break local expectations. A locally coherent > highway tag is preferable, and if you want more precise routing add > the other tags. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
On 29/07/2015, Marc Gemis wrote: > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 5:29 PM, moltonel 3x Combo > wrote: > >> A router won't care about classification differences between far away >> places like Germany to Ethiopia. They just care about taking the best >> road in the area, and as long as OSM is locally consistent, this >> works. Even if a trunk turns into a primary for no physical reason and >> > > Seems like I didn't make my point correctly. > I was trying to ask for global consistency so the router can use the same > default weights for street types, everywhere in the world. Something like > 'prefer primary roads over secondary' roads to travel large distances. Routers can already use 'prefer primary to secondary' worldwide. Nowhere in the OSM world is secondary defined as better than primary. In any given area. a car router can confidently prefer 'primary'. What's true is that 'primary is X times better than secondary' will have different X values from one place to the next. But the differences between section of a given road can already be more important than the average difference between primary and secondary (for example an Irish secondary´s maxspeed can go from 60 to 100, but a primary isn´t generally 1.6x better than a secondary). Consider also the case of motorways : in all countries I've driven in they are very clearly defined and have legal specificities. OSM couldn't afford to mistake a motoway with something else. Yet the difference between a motorway and the next best thing is bigger in Germany than in Ireland. TD;DR: It's naive to think that routers can make a good decision using the highway tag alone. Harmonising highway tag worldwide would be of little use, and it would break local expectations. A locally coherent highway tag is preferable, and if you want more precise routing add the other tags. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
Hi Pavel, First let me say that I am totally against the idea of “silly tags” such as works_as_highway=primary. This just indicates a lack of understanding of the real situation. I have looked at your problem and understand what you are seeing. I will give you examples in the Czech Republic as that appears to be the area of concern. My case example is the D1 from Praha all the way to the border with Poland. http://www.rsd.cz/rsd/rsd.nsf/0/80345976071FCBACC12575CF004E133E/$file/RSD2009cz.pdf (Page 23) You will see that the D1 is incomplete from before Prerov to Ostrava. The cross-border European road network (E462) has chosen the D1 onto R46 onto R35 then back onto D1 as their choice of Primary Route. http://www.rsd.cz/rsd/rsd.nsf/0/80345976071FCBACC12575CF004E133E/$file/RSD2009en.pdf (Page 7) which shows that a Primary route does not necessarily mean it follows the route numbering of a country. You can also see from here that the Primary route bypasses Brno to the south and does not actually go through Brno and many countries countries have adopted this routing to avoid congestion and thus delays along their primary routes so Primary routes do not always take you into your destination city, town, village or hamlet. Where a Primary route is “incomplete” it does not mean that the road just drops off into a deep hole. The lesser roads are the Primary route and were the Primary route before the new planned routes came into existence ... irrespective of the alpha-numeric numbers allocated to them now just because they are not motorways or dual carriageways. So you are dealing with a multi-layered numbering system with EU on top of National on top of Local. The OSM classification irons out all those inconsistencies into a single understandable continuity and should show a continuous primary route along a route that changes from an international to a National to a Local or dual carriageway to two way hard top to a two way unsurfaced and in some countries down to a single lane unsurfaced road. It would be impossible to render all roads according to their National numbering, type of road and state of surface but we can tag them accordingly. From: Pavel Zbytovský Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 10:02 AM To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary Hi, we have a following issue at mapy.cz (zooms cca <13 are OSM data). We try to render primary road overview in Czech republic, so the drivers could easily see where its possible to drive. But sometimes the primary road ends and continues as a secondary road - it could be in cites, or possibly temporary detour. (see links below) Is there any recommended solution already availible? Otherwise we have two solutions to discuss. 1) technically the small secondary roads part works as primary road network. So we would suggest a tag similar to works_as_highway=primary. Do you think its ok? Any suggestions? 2) less preferable solution would be to add render specific tag. Something like low_zoom_as_higway=primary. Thanks for reply, Pavel Zbytovský [1] http://www.mapy.cz/s/hf6Y http://www.osm.org/way/27074773 [2] http://www.mapy.cz/s/k35L http://www.osm.org/way/49798938 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] works_as_highway=primary
On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 5:29 PM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: > I was arguing against a worldwide unified classification. What you're > worried about is only local classification : > > A router won't care about classification differences between far away > places like Germany to Ethiopia. They just care about taking the best > road in the area, and as long as OSM is locally consistent, this > works. Even if a trunk turns into a primary for no physical reason and > Seems like I didn't make my point correctly. I was trying to ask for global consistency so the router can use the same default weights for street types, everywhere in the world. Something like 'prefer primary roads over secondary' roads to travel large distances. Of course more detailed mapping of maxspeeds, number of lanes or street width, etc similar results can be achieved, will give better results than the default values a router assume for a certain highway class. I'll agree with you that that additional tags such as works_as_highway=primary will not be taken up by the data consumers (renderers/routers any time soon and would rather not introduce them. regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
