Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave Swarthout]

Mateusz wrote:

"Both methods are not very easy but are necessary very rarely and it allows
to avoid
problematic "half of tags is here, half in this relation" that is highly
problematic for mappers"

I realize it can be done this way but it's a ton of work (quote: not very
easy) compared to making one simple edit to tag the entire collection of
ways. I simply cannot understand why anyone would prefer this method over
the much easier one of merely adding or editing a tag in the relation. As
for your comment:  "half of tags is here, half in this relation"; frankly
that problem wouldn't exist if people were tagging relations properly in
the first place.

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:30 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 3. Nov 2018 00:00 by daveswarth...@gmail.com:
>
> To make matters worse, let's just say you misspelled the Wikipedia tag
> value. You meant to write "wikipedia=en:Trans-Alaska Pipeline System" but
> forgot to include the "en:" prefix. Back you go to your editor, editing all
> 280 pieces again. That's why I say tagging it this way is a maintenance
> nightmare.
>
>
> (1) First method: download area with relation in JOSM, download all
> relations members,
>
> use "select members" in relation listing menu.
>
>
> --
>
>
> (2) It can be also relatively easily done with help of overpass turbo.
>
>
> Search with overpass turbo wizard
>
> wikipedia="en:Trans-Alaska Pipeline System" global
>
>
> results are in https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DkY
> One may use "Export" button to send this data to your editor.
>
> Both methods are not very easy but are necessary very rarely and it allows
> to avoid
> problematic "half of tags is here, half in this relation" that is highly
> problematic for mappers.
>
>

-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Allan Mustard]

Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays
the rent on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the
filthy lucre comes out of the government budget, and the office is used
by someone drawing a government salary (as all executives, legislators,
and judges do, or are supposed to, at least) then it is a government office.

By the way the UK has no monopoly on overlap between executive and
legislative branches.  Since we Yanks adopted a Constitution in 1789
that makes the Vice President also the President of the Senate, our VP
is technically a member of the legislative branch, and his office budget
is so appropriated. 

Cheers,
apm-wa


On 11/4/2018 2:04 AM, Warin wrote:
> On 04/11/18 01:41, Paul Allen wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 3:29 AM Allan Mustard > > wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm.  Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political
>> science, Parliament is also a government body, the legislative
>> branch of the government, so even a member of the opposition is
>> part of "government" in its broadest sense.  I would tag it
>> office=government, government=parliamentarian or something
>> similar.  Executive, legislative, judicial are all "government".
>>
>> There's a can of annelids here, just waiting to be opened.
>>
>> Over here in the UK, I have an MP (Member of Parliament) representing
>> me in the UK national
>> government.  There's also the House of Lords (upper chamber), some
>> members of which might
>> have unofficial offices outside of parliament buildings where they
>> can be contacted, but a quick
>> search shows no evidence of such.  Since I live in Wales, I also have
>> an AM (Assembly Member)
>> of the National Assembly of Wales.  And, for a few more months, I
>> have an MEP (Member of the
>> European Parliament).  Scotland and Northern Ireland have devolved
>> governments like Wales
>> (but different names for their assemblies and members) but England
>> does not (don't get me
>> started on the West Lothian question).
>>
>> Other member countries of the European Union will have MEPs in
>> addition to representatives of
>> their own national governments and some may have (like the UK)
>> devolved assemblies in
>> addition.  The US has state and federal government.  Oh, and don't
>> forget that technically, the US
>> has three branches of government so we have to decide if we absorb
>> the judiciary into this
>> (does our definition of government differ from that of the US
>> Constitution).
>>
>> It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to
>> come up with a scheme
>> with sensible terminology that works for all those situations. 
>
>
> And those examples are only the ones 'we' are aware of. I'd like some
> thoughts from elsewhere.
>
>
> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political role
> when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>
> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels -
> upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
> That could go in the description, far too many variables around the
> world for a single system I think.
> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a more
> complex area?
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Allan Mustard]

He is still a government official, is drawing a government salary, and
the office rent is paid for out of the government budget.  It isn't his
personal office for which he is paying out of his own pocket. 

Political parties don't pay for office expenses of members of Parliament
or other legislatures.  "Politician" would be more appropriate for the
campaign office of candidate who has not yet been elected, but they are
temporary and thus not mappable under OSM guidelines.


On 11/4/2018 6:33 AM, Warin wrote:
> On 04/11/18 11:17, Allan Mustard wrote:
>>
>> Top-level tag IMHO would be office=government, then additional tag
>> would be government=legislature.
>>
>> The three branches of government are the executive, the legislative,
>> and the judicial branches.
>>
>
> Errr...
>
>  this is not to map the executive, the legislative, or the judicial
> branches! Probably why I thought office=politician would be better
> than office=government.
>
> This is to map the personal usually local office of some usually
> elected representative .. so locals can communicate to them and they
> can communicate to locals (who usually elect them). It is not about
> the executive, the legislative, and the judicial branches' but about a
> politician trying to maintain some connection to the people that
> usually elect them .. so they might get re-elected.
>
> Have I put enough 'usually' in there to keep the edge cases happy?
>
>
> An example?
> Tony Abbott ex PM, http://tonyabbott.com.au/ Has an office at Level 2,
> 17 Sydney Road, Manly, NSW 2095 Australia. It is not the office of the
> Liberal Party, nor an office of what ever role he might be playing in
> parliament. It is an office of Tony Abbott the elected representative
> in this area.
>
>
>
>>
>> On 11/4/2018 5:08 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
 It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings
 here, to come up with a scheme
 with sensible terminology that works for all those situations. 
>>> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political
>>> role when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
>>> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>>>
>>> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels
>>> - upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
>>> That could go in the description, far too many variables around
>>> the world for a single system I think.
>>> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a
>>> more complex area?
>>>
>>>
>>> No, I agree with you!
>>>
>>> I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit
>>> office=government or office=politician 
>>>
>>> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
>>> European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home
>>> country? Are they a "politician" as such?
>>>
>>> Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can
>>> think of quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be
>>> marking any of them on the map! :-))
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - emergency=fire_alarm_box

[Warin]

On 04/11/18 12:12, Stefano Maffulli wrote:
On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:33 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Do we also use this tag to tag the "In case of fire, break glass"
alarms eg https://goo.gl/images/4qVSgc, that are found throughout
public access buildings eg hospitals, high rise offices, hotels,
universities etc?


IMO to add those to OSM would be overkill: people frequenting the 
buildings will know where the alarms are, and those most often get 
triggered also automatically anyway.


I think it's more worthwhile focusing on the alarms that are in the 
street, actionable by passer-by, or the volunteers of various disaster 
response teams. The use case is of a member of such disaster response 
team doing the first inspections on the ground after a major event 
(say, earthquake) and noticing fire. Their printed map should have the 
closest alarm marked.



Usually these things are signed on the ground so that you don't need a 
map to find them...
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Warin]

On 04/11/18 11:17, Allan Mustard wrote:


Top-level tag IMHO would be office=government, then additional tag 
would be government=legislature.


The three branches of government are the executive, the legislative, 
and the judicial branches.




Errr...

 this is not to map the executive, the legislative, or the judicial 
branches! Probably why I thought office=politician would be better than 
office=government.


This is to map the personal usually local office of some usually elected 
representative .. so locals can communicate to them and they can 
communicate to locals (who usually elect them). It is not about the 
executive, the legislative, and the judicial branches' but about a 
politician trying to maintain some connection to the people that usually 
elect them .. so they might get re-elected.


Have I put enough 'usually' in there to keep the edge cases happy?


An example?
Tony Abbott ex PM, http://tonyabbott.com.au/ Has an office at Level 2, 
17 Sydney Road, Manly, NSW 2095 Australia. It is not the office of the 
Liberal Party, nor an office of what ever role he might be playing in 
parliament. It is an office of Tony Abbott the elected representative in 
this area.






On 11/4/2018 5:08 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here,
to come up with a scheme
with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.

To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political
role when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.

I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels
- upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
That could go in the description, far too many variables around
the world for a single system I think.
Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a
more complex area?


No, I agree with you!

I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit 
office=government or office=politician


Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the 
European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home 
country? Are they a "politician" as such?


Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think 
of quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking 
any of them on the map! :-))


Thanks

Graeme



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - emergency=fire_alarm_box

[Stefano Maffulli]

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:33 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Do we also use this tag to tag the "In case of fire, break glass" alarms
> eg https://goo.gl/images/4qVSgc, that are found throughout public access
> buildings eg hospitals, high rise offices, hotels, universities etc?
>

IMO to add those to OSM would be overkill: people frequenting the buildings
will know where the alarms are, and those most often get triggered also
automatically anyway.

I think it's more worthwhile focusing on the alarms that are in the street,
actionable by passer-by, or the volunteers of various disaster response
teams. The use case is of a member of such disaster response team doing the
first inspections on the ground after a major event (say, earthquake) and
noticing fire. Their printed map should have the closest alarm marked.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - emergency=fire_alarm_box

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 09:44, Stefano Maffulli  wrote:

> These are to call the fire department only.
>

Do we also use this tag to tag the "In case of fire, break glass" alarms eg
https://goo.gl/images/4qVSgc, that are found throughout public access
buildings eg hospitals, high rise offices, hotels, universities etc?

In Australia at least, all (or the vast majority) of these alarms do go
straight to the Fire Service

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:10 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
> European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country? Are
> they a "politician" as such?
>

Elected.  They don't serve any useful purpose since the EU is run by
unelected bureaucrats, but they're
elected.

Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think of
> quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking any of
> them on the map! :-))
>

My local councillor is elected.  Is she counted in this scheme of things?
Local government is
government and getting elected is politics.  Even though it has US
connotations, a general term
might be "representative."

That's why I said this is a can of annelids.  In a rabbit hole.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Allan Mustard]

Top-level tag IMHO would be office=government, then additional tag would
be government=legislature.

The three branches of government are the executive, the legislative, and
the judicial branches.


On 11/4/2018 5:08 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here,
>> to come up with a scheme
>> with sensible terminology that works for all those situations. 
> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political
> role when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>
> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels -
> upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
> That could go in the description, far too many variables around
> the world for a single system I think.
> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a
> more complex area?
>
>
> No, I agree with you!
>
> I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit
> office=government or office=politician 
>
> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
> European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country?
> Are they a "politician" as such?
>
> Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think
> of quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking
> any of them on the map! :-))
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to come
> up with a scheme
> with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.
>
> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political role when
> acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>
> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels - upper
> and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
> That could go in the description, far too many variables around the world
> for a single system I think.
> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a more
> complex area?
>

No, I agree with you!

I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit
office=government or office=politician

Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the European
Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country? Are they a
"politician" as such?

Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think of
quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking any of
them on the map! :-))

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - emergency=fire_alarm_box

[Stefano Maffulli]

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 4:00 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> is this intended only for those alarm boxes that directly notify a fire
> department or would those for local systems count as well (e.g. ring an
> alarm bell)?
>

These are to call the fire department only.
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Jo]

You are right, for the concrete case of De Lijn it will be better to link
to their realtime data from the stops and add a url to the route relations
for the timetables. I'm merely using these as a test case, a proof of
concept. I'm not planning to add all of them. I think it does make sense
for the school, market and student buses that run relatively infrequently.

Jo


Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 23:16 schreef OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com>:

> Considering De Lijn may share their data as GTFS, isn’t it a better effort
> to integrate instead of duplicate existing data?
>
>
> https://www.delijn.be/en/zakelijk-aanbod/reisinfodata/gebruik-onze-data.html
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - emergency=fire_alarm_box

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Nov 2018, at 21:37, Stefano Maffulli  wrote:
> 
> Add a tag for fire alarm call boxes. A fire alarm box, fire alarm call box, 
> or fire alarm pull box is a device used for notifying a fire department of a 
> fire. Typically installed on street corners or in buildings.


is this intended only for those alarm boxes that directly notify a fire 
department or would those for local systems count as well (e.g. ring an alarm 
bell)?

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Nov 2018, at 16:24, Leif Rasmussen <354...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Polyglot:
> I think that having a timetable relation for each stop is less complicated 
> than having one per route.


In Rome there are no timetables for bus stops, there are theoretical departure 
times from the terminal (which give you a theoretical frequency). Bus stop 
related timetables would make zero sense here.

Also the frequency currently is not very reliable, but at least it can give 
some indication. 

The most important distinction for buses I see around here is:
-ordinary daytime bus route (different frequencies)
-bus route on sundays / holidays (often route variations)
-night bus (not operating during the day)
-tourist route (very few lines)

Cheers, Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[OSMDoudou]

Considering De Lijn may share their data as GTFS, isn’t it a better effort to 
integrate instead of duplicate existing data?

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Re: [Tagging] RfC - tagging whatever power line is isolated as attribute

[Warin]

On 04/11/18 06:45, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 7:34 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>> wrote:


Thanks! It was intended to be about insulation.


It now makes a lot more sense.  However, the word "isolated" is 
present twice in the rationale.


You probably ought to mention something that was brought up on this 
list: that some power
lines have a cladding which is not considered to be an electrical 
insulator.  It is unlikely most

mappers could tell the difference.

Yes, there are insulated cables.  They're present on minor power lines 
for local distribution (they
run along streets with feeds to houses along the street) near me.  At 
some points the line
between poles is a single insulated cable and at other points along 
the same street it switches
to four, physically-separated, uninsulated conductors. It appears to 
me that the uninsulated
stretches are older than the insulated ones and that as repairs become 
necessary they change
to insulated cable.  I suspect that on anything other than this type 
of local distribution any covering

around the wire is cladding rather than insulation.


This may be true for local low voltage distribution in your area.

In my residential area low voltage distribution runs insulated from the 
power pole to the residences, but uninsulated from power pole to power 
pole.


-
High voltage (10s if not 100s of kilo volts)  run uninsulated here and 
I'd think that would be true anywhere.






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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Jo]

I'm mostly experimenting to figure out what can work. My initial though was
a relation per route/stop pair, but that means a lot of relations. Then I
was thinking: it would be nice to have an idea about the approximate time
to get to the next stop, which led to what I did now. Taking that idea a
bit further, why stop at only the next stop, if you can describe the whole
itinerary?

I do think we need a plugin to make handling the information easier. I
think it can easily be added to PT_Assistant if we manage to find someone
who can code in JAVA.

What I like about doing it this way, is that it becomes possible to
determine what will be the final stop for the particular bus that passes at
that stop at that time. This is something we didn't have yet.

The other thing that is nice is that we now have a basis to sort the stops
in the route relations on. (atm PT_Assistant has functionality to sort them
along the highways, if they are sorted correctly).

For someone entering the data, it's enough to enter the departures times
for the first stop. If the times between the stops are not known yet, the
roles remain empty at first. Or we could put sequence numbers in there.
About that, I do notice some have the same minute, it would be nice to have
a way to sort the stops based on the times though.

If someone entered the times at a stop somewhere in the middle of the
itinerary a tool can help adapt the times afterwards.

I'm going to try and apply this to this 'route from hell' (47 itinerary
variations!) :
https://b2cservices.delijn.be/rise-api-pdf/pdf/dienstregelingen/entiteit/4/lijnnummer/201/richting/10/lijnnummerpubliek/20a/dienstregeling_20a.pdf?gebundeldeLijnen=false=true=all=false=06-11-2018=1541278207591

That PDF only describes what itineraries it takes on weekdays outside of
school holidays...

Jo

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 16:25 schreef Leif Rasmussen <354...@gmail.com>:

> Polyglot:
> I think that having a timetable relation for each stop is less complicated
> than having one per route.  There are several advantages to this:
> 1) People can easily add a single relation at a time, rather than having
> to do the entire line at one time.  This could make it much easier to, for
> example, have a StreetComplete quest asking "What are the arrival times of
> bus X at this bus stop?"  iD could also have a field at bus stops with
> "arrivals for each parent bus route" that would allow people to seamlessly
> create timetable relations.  It also makes more features possible in the
> future, such as additional tags to each timetable.
> 2) The system is easier for newbies to learn to use.
>
> The disadvantage is that there are now a ton of relations per bus / train
> / subway route.  Creating these could made easier by a new JOSM plugin.
> Also, if someone wanted to delete all timetable relations that are part of
> a route, they could simply use this overpass query to download the data
> into JOSM and then delete all of the timetable relations:
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Dlf
>
> If people really prefer a single timetable relation for each route, then I
> will go with that.
>
> Julien:
> Why not have a "delay"=" this platform>" tag instead of separate arrivals/departures tags?
>
> Thanks,
> Leif Rasmussen
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Warin]

On 04/11/18 01:41, Paul Allen wrote:


On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 3:29 AM Allan Mustard > wrote:


Hmmm. Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political science,
Parliament is also a government body, the legislative branch of
the government, so even a member of the opposition is part of
"government" in its broadest sense.  I would tag it
office=government, government=parliamentarian or something
similar. Executive, legislative, judicial are all "government".

There's a can of annelids here, just waiting to be opened.

Over here in the UK, I have an MP (Member of Parliament) representing 
me in the UK national
government.  There's also the House of Lords (upper chamber), some 
members of which might
have unofficial offices outside of parliament buildings where they can 
be contacted, but a quick
search shows no evidence of such.  Since I live in Wales, I also have 
an AM (Assembly Member)
of the National Assembly of Wales.  And, for a few more months, I have 
an MEP (Member of the
European Parliament).  Scotland and Northern Ireland have devolved 
governments like Wales
(but different names for their assemblies and members) but England 
does not (don't get me

started on the West Lothian question).

Other member countries of the European Union will have MEPs in 
addition to representatives of
their own national governments and some may have (like the UK) 
devolved assemblies in
addition.  The US has state and federal government.  Oh, and don't 
forget that technically, the US
has three branches of government so we have to decide if we absorb the 
judiciary into this
(does our definition of government differ from that of the US 
Constitution).


It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to 
come up with a scheme

with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.



And those examples are only the ones 'we' are aware of. I'd like some 
thoughts from elsewhere.



To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political role 
when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.

Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.

I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels - upper 
and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
That could go in the description, far too many variables around the 
world for a single system I think.
Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a more 
complex area?




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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - emergency=fire_alarm_box

[Stefano Maffulli]

hello folks, first RFC here!

Proposal to add a tag to map "A device put on public land used for
notifying a fire department of a fire."

Full proposal here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/fire_alarm_box

Add a tag for fire alarm call boxes. A fire alarm box, fire alarm call box,
or fire alarm pull box is a device used for notifying a fire department of
a fire. Typically installed on street corners or in buildings.

Cities like San Francisco rely on this type of boxes for emergencies
because they offer redundancy over other communication systems, like cell
phones. In San Francisco these boxes have been reinforced to resist the
strongest quakes and are considered to be a redundancy tool in case of
emergency. These are placed usually every 2 blocks.

Many of these have already been mapped in San Francisco and other places:
https://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22emergency%22%3D%22fire_alarm_box%22+global

I'd love your opinion on this, these make OSM data even better to build
resiliency maps.

Cheers,
stef
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Re: [Tagging] RfC - tagging whatever power line is isolated as attribute

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 7:34 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> Thanks! It was intended to be about insulation.
>

It now makes a lot more sense.  However, the word "isolated" is present
twice in the rationale.

You probably ought to mention something that was brought up on this list:
that some power
lines have a cladding which is not considered to be an electrical
insulator.  It is unlikely most
mappers could tell the difference.

Yes, there are insulated cables.  They're present on minor power lines for
local distribution (they
run along streets with feeds to houses along the street) near me.  At some
points the line
between poles is a single insulated cable and at other points along the
same street it switches
to four, physically-separated, uninsulated conductors.  It appears to me
that the uninsulated
stretches are older than the insulated ones and that as repairs become
necessary they change
to insulated cable.  I suspect that on anything other than this type of
local distribution any covering
around the wire is cladding rather than insulation.

For more details (only legally applicable to the UK but is probably
indicative of practise in other
countries) see http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/gs6.pdf

-- 
Paul


-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

3. Nov 2018 14:43 by daveswarth...@gmail.com :


> (> BOLD TEXT>  is my addition) This is exactly what I've been saying> . 
> Member ways should be untagged unless they have a separate meaning on their 
> own. 
>
> There you have it. It's a logical system of tagging and makes perfect sense 
> both from an initial standpoint and for ease of maintenance later on.
>




That is because multipolygon is a single area, with one set of tags. What you 
are doing is

different, more complex (inheritance of tags) and AFAIK something new.


 

> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:34 PM Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>   >> 3. Nov 2018 11:30 by >> davefoxfa...@btinternet.com 
>> >> :
>>
>>
>>> Duplication of data leads to confusion, wasted time & errors.
>>> Please refrain from mapping in this way.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please refrain from demanding that other stop mapping in way that is 
>> commonly accepted.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Suggesting, promoting and explaining alternatives is fine, but claiming that 
>> one way is sole
>>
>> acceptable while it is untrue is irritating.
>>
>>   >> ___
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>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
>> 
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at > http://dswarthout.blogspot.com 
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Re: [Tagging] RfC - tagging whatever power line is isolated as attribute

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Thanks! It was intended to be about insulation.

Page is now https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/insulated 


Thanks again!

3. Nov 2018 15:21 by pla16...@gmail.com :


> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 10:17 AM Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>   >> I created >> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/isolated 
>> >>  to 
>> with intention of allowing mappers not interested in extreme detail of power 
>> networks>> to allow ignoring this detail in case of isolation of power lines.
>>
>
> I realize that English is not your first language, but "isolated" is not the 
> word to use.  I'd tell> you a better word but I cannot figure out, from your 
> proposal, what your intent is.
> -- 
> Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Leif Rasmussen]

Polyglot:
I think that having a timetable relation for each stop is less complicated
than having one per route.  There are several advantages to this:
1) People can easily add a single relation at a time, rather than having to
do the entire line at one time.  This could make it much easier to, for
example, have a StreetComplete quest asking "What are the arrival times of
bus X at this bus stop?"  iD could also have a field at bus stops with
"arrivals for each parent bus route" that would allow people to seamlessly
create timetable relations.  It also makes more features possible in the
future, such as additional tags to each timetable.
2) The system is easier for newbies to learn to use.

The disadvantage is that there are now a ton of relations per bus / train /
subway route.  Creating these could made easier by a new JOSM plugin.
Also, if someone wanted to delete all timetable relations that are part of
a route, they could simply use this overpass query to download the data
into JOSM and then delete all of the timetable relations:
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Dlf

If people really prefer a single timetable relation for each route, then I
will go with that.

Julien:
Why not have a "delay"="" tag instead of separate arrivals/departures tags?

Thanks,
Leif Rasmussen
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Kevin Kenny]

I probably should make a clarification about what I mean about "logically
belonging" to the relation.

On a road route, it wouldn't make sense to put 'lanes=2' or
'surface=concrete' on a road route, even if all the component ways happen
to have that characteristic. There's nothing to keep the highway department
from repaving one component way as 'surface=asphalt' or widening to
'lanes=4', and a mapper is likely to miss the fact that the relation is
claiming an attribute that properly belongs to the way.

On the other hand, network=*, ref=* operator=*, symbol=*, name=* and
similar attributes logically belong to the route itself, and won't change
as part of maintenance of the way. They go on the relation. For routes
(including route=pipeline, which is what we have here),
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route tries to tabulate the
suggested keys that belong to the route itself.

On a multipolygon, as I observed before, every attribute belongs to the
multipolygon unless the way has some existence apart from its role in
defining the multipolygon boundary.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 3:29 AM Allan Mustard  wrote:

> Hmmm.  Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political science,
> Parliament is also a government body, the legislative branch of the
> government, so even a member of the opposition is part of "government" in
> its broadest sense.  I would tag it office=government,
> government=parliamentarian or something similar.  Executive, legislative,
> judicial are all "government".
>
There's a can of annelids here, just waiting to be opened.

Over here in the UK, I have an MP (Member of Parliament) representing me in
the UK national
government.  There's also the House of Lords (upper chamber), some members
of which might
have unofficial offices outside of parliament buildings where they can be
contacted, but a quick
search shows no evidence of such.  Since I live in Wales, I also have an AM
(Assembly Member)
of the National Assembly of Wales.  And, for a few more months, I have an
MEP (Member of the
European Parliament).  Scotland and Northern Ireland have devolved
governments like Wales
(but different names for their assemblies and members) but England does not
(don't get me
started on the West Lothian question).

Other member countries of the European Union will have MEPs in addition to
representatives of
their own national governments and some may have (like the UK) devolved
assemblies in
addition.  The US has state and federal government.  Oh, and don't forget
that technically, the US
has three branches of government so we have to decide if we absorb the
judiciary into this
(does our definition of government differ from that of the US Constitution).

It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to come up
with a scheme
with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.  It's going
to make the difference
between a consulate and an embassy seem like a walk in the park.

Do we really want to open this can?  Doesn't matter, somebody will anyway.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 9:45 AM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> (*BOLD TEXT* is my addition) This is exactly what I've been saying*.
> Member ways should be untagged unless they have a separate meaning on their
> own. *
>
> There you have it. It's a logical system of tagging and makes perfect
> sense both from an initial standpoint and for ease of maintenance later on.
>

That's surely true of multipolygons.

At this point, except for the margins of [multi]polygons, the data model
doesn't really contemplate ways that need to be broken up because of size,
so to some extent you're breaking new ground here. In the road network,
what everyone does is just to split the way and repeat the tagging. Then,
anything like marked routes gets added atop the split ways, with only the
tags that pertain to the route.  Those tags don't get repeated on the way.
(An exception is ref=*, which doesn't work correctly in many renderers if
it is not on the way.) A better description might be that 'if a tag
conceptually would have an independent meaning on the member ways, it goes
on the member; if it logically pertains only to the collection, it goes on
the relation." For multipolygons, this is obvious - everything belongs on
the relation unless the way is being used independently, for instance, if
two administrative regions are divided by a road or stream.

This does add complexity if you're trying to analyze a long chain of ways
that shares a common characteristic.  It's a little tricky to follow
'Broadway' from the Battery in New York City to Sleepy Hollow in the Hudson
Valley, because everything changes about the ways (Even the name is not
100% consistent; there are variants like 'Old Broadway', 'New Broadway',
'South Broadway', and so on.)

Even the 'tag the collection attributes only on the relation' rule has a
couple of exceptions, but they're rare. They relate to the fact that
support for site and group relations, and routes-inside-routes ranges from
uncommon to nonexistent. Long and complex routes with many hundreds of
constituent ways are typically broken up into routes-inside-routes, so that
there are no more than a few dozen to a few hundred ways in each piece.
Examples include the New York Long Path
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/919642 and the Appalachian Trail
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/156553 (which seems to have picked
up a few problems; the top-level relation isn't supposed to have any ways,
only the subrelations). Because of the difficulties with
route-inside-route, group and site, it's easiest on these beasts to repeat
the tagging that appears on the top relation on each of the member
relations as well.  Waymarked Trails understands this sort of structure,
and can do both rendering and elevation profiling if the structure is done
right (For instance, the 'forward' direction in each of the subrelations
must match, and the subrelations must also run 'end to end': on both the
trails I list as examples, they run south to north).
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Re: [Tagging] RfC - tagging whatever power line is isolated as attribute

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 10:17 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> I created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/isolated
> to
> with intention of allowing mappers not interested in extreme detail of
> power networks
> to allow ignoring this detail in case of isolation of power lines.
>

I realize that English is not your first language, but "isolated" is not
the word to use.  I'd tell
you a better word but I cannot figure out, from your proposal, what your
intent is.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I have been using commas between the times, maybe semicolon would be better
(not for readability though).

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 14:01 schreef djakk djakk :

> Maybe we can put that optional piece of information inside the departures
> key : departures=7:40,7:45 ; 8:40,8:45 -> means the train or the bus
> arrives at the stop at 7:40 or 8:40 and leaves 5 minutes later.
>
> Arrival and departure time are separated by a comma, and different
> departures are separated by a semicolon.
>
> If no comma, it means departure time only - except for the last stop :
> means arrival time only.
>
>
> Should we use 0-24-25 hour format ? (when a trip starts at 23:45 and
> finishes 30 minutes later at 0:15, which is sometimes written 24:15 in a
> gtfs. )
>
>
> Julien “djakk”
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 12:53, Jo  a écrit :
>
>> For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
>> necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
>> added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.
>>
>> Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually
>> because they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :
>>
>>> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
>>> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
>>> stop.
>>>
>>> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
>>> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
>>> map the line.
>>>
>>> The first stop has departure timetable only.
>>> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
>>> An intermediate stop has both.
>>>
>>>
>>> Julien « djakk »
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>>>
 I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
 suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
 variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
 necessary.

 Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
 will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
 information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
 to the stops themselves.

 For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably
 more helpful than trying to store all the detail:
 https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.

 But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
 regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.

 Jo

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
 matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
> during night and
> during rush hour?
>
> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>
> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
> role 00:00.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
>> implemented:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>>
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion 
>> that
>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>> pair.
>>
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines
>>> do
>>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris
>>> for
>>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and
>>> hire
>>> > new drivers.
>>> >
>>>
>>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think
>>> that
>>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area
>>> for a
>>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>>> possible and practical?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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> 

Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I created a few more for a more 'complicated' line, which changes in length.

Normal northbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886015

Shortened northbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886014

I used the same route relation twice, because for telescopic lines I only
mapped the longer variants.

Normal southbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886013

Shortened southbound:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886011

This one refers to another route relation than the previous one, as it does
something different for the last 2 stops, so the bus is ready to start
again on the northbound journey.

Last fare on Saturday evening only goes to the railway station:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8886012

So 5 extra relations to describe the whole timetable. To make this
manageable (and interpret what it really means in reality) we will need
dedicated tools though.

Now I'll try with a route that changes on Wednesdays, so not all weekdays
are the same, because school ends at noon on Wednesdays over here.

Polyglot

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 14:01 schreef djakk djakk :

> Maybe we can put that optional piece of information inside the departures
> key : departures=7:40,7:45 ; 8:40,8:45 -> means the train or the bus
> arrives at the stop at 7:40 or 8:40 and leaves 5 minutes later.
>
> Arrival and departure time are separated by a comma, and different
> departures are separated by a semicolon.
>
> If no comma, it means departure time only - except for the last stop :
> means arrival time only.
>
>
> Should we use 0-24-25 hour format ? (when a trip starts at 23:45 and
> finishes 30 minutes later at 0:15, which is sometimes written 24:15 in a
> gtfs. )
>
>
> Julien “djakk”
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 12:53, Jo  a écrit :
>
>> For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
>> necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
>> added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.
>>
>> Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually
>> because they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :
>>
>>> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
>>> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
>>> stop.
>>>
>>> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
>>> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
>>> map the line.
>>>
>>> The first stop has departure timetable only.
>>> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
>>> An intermediate stop has both.
>>>
>>>
>>> Julien « djakk »
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>>>
 I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
 suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
 variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
 necessary.

 Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
 will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
 information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
 to the stops themselves.

 For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably
 more helpful than trying to store all the detail:
 https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.

 But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
 regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.

 Jo

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
 matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
> during night and
> during rush hour?
>
> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>
> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
> role 00:00.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
>> implemented:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>>
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion 
>> that
>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>> pair.
>>
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do 

Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave Swarthout]

I've been saying that I believe tagging that applies to an entire relation
should be placed ONLY on the relation and NOT on the individual ways,
UNLESS, there is some characteristic of the way that requires different
tagging. I gave examples using the Trans Alaska Pipeline but this reasoning
extends to other cases. Just now, I came across this statement in the Wiki
concerning islands in a river system:

"To map islands in a river you can use a multipolygon
 relation and
the island and the main river bank should be included in the relation. The
main riverbank way (way 1 in image above) will have the role 'outer' and
the way for the island (way 2 in image above) will have the role 'inner'. *When
mapping with multipolygon relations do not tag the member ways with
waterway=riverbank as well - this is wrong. Member ways should be untagged
unless they have a separate meaning on their own (like barrier
=retaining_wall
)"*

(*BOLD TEXT* is my addition) This is exactly what I've been saying
*. Member ways should be untagged unless they have a separate meaning on
their own. *

There you have it. It's a logical system of tagging and makes perfect sense
both from an initial standpoint and for ease of maintenance later on.

On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 5:34 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 3. Nov 2018 11:30 by davefoxfa...@btinternet.com:
>
> Duplication of data leads to confusion, wasted time & errors.
> Please refrain from mapping in this way.
>
>
> Please refrain from demanding that other stop mapping in way that is
> commonly accepted.
>
>
> Suggesting, promoting and explaining alternatives is fine, but claiming
> that one way is sole
>
> acceptable while it is untrue is irritating.
> ___
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>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Maybe we can put that optional piece of information inside the departures
key : departures=7:40,7:45 ; 8:40,8:45 -> means the train or the bus
arrives at the stop at 7:40 or 8:40 and leaves 5 minutes later.

Arrival and departure time are separated by a comma, and different
departures are separated by a semicolon.

If no comma, it means departure time only - except for the last stop :
means arrival time only.


Should we use 0-24-25 hour format ? (when a trip starts at 23:45 and
finishes 30 minutes later at 0:15, which is sometimes written 24:15 in a
gtfs. )


Julien “djakk”


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 12:53, Jo  a écrit :

> For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
> necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
> added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.
>
> Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually
> because they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :
>
>> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
>> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
>> stop.
>>
>> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
>> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
>> map the line.
>>
>> The first stop has departure timetable only.
>> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
>> An intermediate stop has both.
>>
>>
>> Julien « djakk »
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>>
>>> I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
>>> suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
>>> variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>> Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
>>> will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
>>> information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
>>> to the stops themselves.
>>>
>>> For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably
>>> more helpful than trying to store all the detail:
>>> https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.
>>>
>>> But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
>>> regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.
>>>
>>> Jo
>>>
>>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
>>> matkoni...@tutanota.com>:
>>>
 So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
 during night and
 during rush hour?

 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:

 When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
 role 00:00.

 Jo

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
> implemented:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>
> This is for a simple line...
>
> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion 
> that
> was planned for in the time tables.
>
> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
> pair.
>
> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>
> Polyglot
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>
>>
>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines
>> do
>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and
>> hire
>> > new drivers.
>> >
>>
>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think
>> that
>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for
>> a
>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>> possible and practical?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

For buses it's exceptional they stay at a stop longer than strictly
necessary, so I think the arrival times should be optional. If the tag is
added, it should have the same amount of entries as the departures though.

Sometimes I do see buses that 'linger' at stops, but that's usually because
they are ahead of their schedule by more than a few minutes.

Jo

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 12:02 schreef djakk djakk :

> Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
> AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
> stop.
>
> The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
> relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
> map the line.
>
> The first stop has departure timetable only.
> The last stop has arrival timetable only.
> An intermediate stop has both.
>
>
> Julien « djakk »
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :
>
>> I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
>> suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
>> variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
>> necessary.
>>
>> Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
>> will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
>> information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
>> to the stops themselves.
>>
>> For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably more
>> helpful than trying to store all the detail:
>> https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.
>>
>> But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
>> regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
>> matkoni...@tutanota.com>:
>>
>>> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
>>> during night and
>>> during rush hour?
>>>
>>> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>>>
>>> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with
>>> role 00:00.
>>>
>>> Jo
>>>
>>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>>>
 Hi,

 I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be
 implemented:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history

 This is for a simple line...

 I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
 times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
 complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
 was planned for in the time tables.

 When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
 pair.

 I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
 (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)

 Polyglot

 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :

>
> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
> > new drivers.
> >
>
> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for
> a
> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
> possible and practical?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> ___
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>
 ___
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>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Jo, I did not try yet, but I think there should be a departure timetable
AND an arrival timetable (trains often stop several minutes). And this, per
stop.

The mapper sees a timetable at a bus stop, he puts it directly into a
relation associating the bus stop and the route. This enables to partially
map the line.

The first stop has departure timetable only.
The last stop has arrival timetable only.
An intermediate stop has both.


Julien « djakk »


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 11:38, Jo  a écrit :

> I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
> suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
> variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
> necessary.
>
> Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses
> will run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
> information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
> to the stops themselves.
>
> For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably more
> helpful than trying to store all the detail:
> https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.
>
> But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
> regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
> matkoni...@tutanota.com>:
>
>> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
>> during night and
>> during rush hour?
>>
>> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>>
>> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role
>> 00:00.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>>>
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>>
>>> This is for a simple line...
>>>
>>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
>>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>>
>>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>>> pair.
>>>
>>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>>
>>> Polyglot
>>>
>>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>>

 On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
 > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
 > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
 > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
 > new drivers.
 >

 OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
 other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
 period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
 possible and practical?

 Best Regards,

 Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

I took it from the official timetables and generally this line doesn't
suffer too much from congestion. But yes. If the timetable shows bigger
variation in delay between stops over the day, then another method would be
necessary.

Obviously this is what the operator plans to happen. In practice buses will
run later than their scheduled times. We have access to real time
information for each stop though. I think I'm going to add the direct urls
to the stops themselves.

For the lines/routes a direct link to a url of this kind is probably more
helpful than trying to store all the detail:
https://www.delijn.be/nl/lijnen/lijn/3/301.

But I'm trying to explore how we could add timetable information for
regions where this kind of service doesn't exist.

Jo

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:22 schreef Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both
> during night and
> during rush hour?
>
> 3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com:
>
> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role
> 00:00.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>>
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
>> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
>> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
>> was planned for in the time tables.
>>
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route
>> pair.
>>
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
>>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
>>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
>>> > new drivers.
>>> >
>>>
>>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
>>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
>>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>>> possible and practical?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

3. Nov 2018 11:30 by davefoxfa...@btinternet.com 
:


> Duplication of data leads to confusion, wasted time & errors.
> Please refrain from mapping in this way.




Please refrain from demanding that other stop mapping in way that is commonly 
accepted.




Suggesting, promoting and explaining alternatives is fine, but claiming that 
one way is sole

acceptable while it is untrue is irritating.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

3. Nov 2018 00:00 by daveswarth...@gmail.com :


> To make matters worse, let's just say you misspelled the Wikipedia tag value. 
> You meant to write "wikipedia=en:Trans-Alaska Pipeline System" but forgot to 
> include the "en:" prefix. Back you go to your editor, editing all 280 pieces 
> again. That's why I say tagging it this way is a maintenance nightmare.
>




(1) First method: download area with relation in JOSM, download all relations 
members,

use "select members" in relation listing menu.





--




(2) It can be also relatively easily done with help of overpass turbo. 





Search with overpass turbo wizard

wikipedia="en:Trans-Alaska Pipeline System" global



results are in https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/DkY 
One may use "Export" button to send this data 
to your editor.
 Both methods are not very easy but are necessary very rarely and it allows to 
avoid 
problematic "half of tags is here, half in this relation" that is highly 
problematic for mappers.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave F]

Hi

On 02/11/2018 01:43, Allan Mustard wrote:


I don't see a problem with duplicating a tag in both the relation and 
sections of the object.  In my case I have been mapping the national 
highway network of Turkmenistan the last few months.  I have created 
relations so that all segments belong to one or more highways (P-1 
from Ashgabat to Koneurgench, for example). However, most map 
renderers will not indicate that




Yours is a common & increasing misunderstanding of relations. There's a 
belief that:


a) Everything has to be linked together.
&
b) Relations are the only way to link them.

You're also misunderstanding the purpose of the route relation which is 
to indicate a regular, often used path taken by travellers which cross 
*different* roads, paths, rivers etc.


Duplication of data leads to confusion, wasted time & errors.
Please refrain from mapping in this way.

, plus the road is known to locals in most areas by that name, so I 
have also added it to the name=* and ref=* tags.




The way it's known is by it's reference number. It does not have a name. 
This is just more unnecessary duplication.


DaveF

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Mateusz Konieczny]

So this assumes that bus travels for the same time between stops both during 
night andduring rush hour?

3. Nov 2018 11:19 by winfi...@gmail.com :


> When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role 
> 00:00.
> Jo
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo <> winfi...@gmail.com 
> > >:
>
>> Hi,
>> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history 
>> 
>>
>> This is for a simple line...
>> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common times 
>> to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more complex if 
>> these differentials change during the day due to congestion that was planned 
>> for in the time tables.
>> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route pair.
>> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation. 
>> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>> Polyglot
>> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend <>> ajt1...@gmail.com 
>> >> >:
>>
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do 
>>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for 
>>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire 
>>> > new drivers.
>>> >
>>>
>>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that 
>>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a 
>>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is 
>>> possible and practical?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

When done this way, the departures in the tags are for the stop with role
00:00.

Jo

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 11:09 schreef Jo :

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history
>
> This is for a simple line...
>
> I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common
> times to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more
> complex if these differentials change during the day due to congestion that
> was planned for in the time tables.
>
> When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route pair.
>
> I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
> (telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)
>
> Polyglot
>
> Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :
>
>>
>> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
>> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
>> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
>> > new drivers.
>> >
>>
>> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
>> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
>> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
>> possible and practical?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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[Tagging] RfC - tagging whatever power line is isolated as attribute

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/isolated 
 to 
with intention of allowing mappers not interested in extreme detail of power 
networksto allow ignoring this detail in case of isolation of power lines.

Feedback is highly appreciated. I have little experience with power tagging in 
OSM. 
This proposal is primarily based on tagging scheme issues that I discovered 
during 
an attempt to handle 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3460 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/isolated 

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Jo]

Hi,

I'm looking into this timetable relation and how it could be implemented:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8885374/history

This is for a simple line...

I added all the stops of the route relation and added the most common times
to get from one to the next. I realise things can get even more complex if
these differentials change during the day due to congestion that was
planned for in the time tables.

When done this way, it's not a timetable relation for each stop/route pair.

I'll try to do something similar for a more complicated situation.
(telescopic line, i.e. not all trips are the same length)

Polyglot

Op za 3 nov. 2018 om 10:21 schreef Andy Townsend :

>
> On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
> > I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do
> > not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for
> > example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire
> > new drivers.
> >
>
> OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that
> other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a
> period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is
> possible and practical?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Mateusz Konieczny]

3. Nov 2018 05:55 by djakk.dj...@gmail.com :


> I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do not 
> change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for example). 

 

In my city (Kraków, Poland) schedules are changed multiple times each year, 
with additional

regular changes (for example - currently there are active changes related to 
All Saints' Day 


to make reaching cemeteries easier).




Every major road reconstruction results in changed lines and arrival times.




> Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire new drivers. 
>




Not in cases where busses are moved from one line to another, potentially new 
line.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[Andy Townsend]

On 03/11/2018 04:55, djakk djakk wrote:
I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do 
not change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for 
example). Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire 
new drivers.




OSM has been described as a "do-ocracy".  Basically, if you think that 
other people should do something why don't you do it in your area for a 
period of time (maybe a couple of months) to demonstrate that it is 
possible and practical?


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables Proposal RFC

[djakk djakk]

Moreover, timetables in OSM can be useful even incomplete : a mapper can
map only timetables of 2 bus stops, its local bus stop’s and the main stop
of the line (downtown’s bus stop), then you can tell users the timetable
between the bus stops of this suburb and downtown.

Julien « djakk »


Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 06:57, djakk djakk  a écrit :

> Yes I trust you ;)
> But where the bus network does not revolutionate (that exists) every 6
> months, timetables and bus stops can be in OSM ...
>
> Julien « djakk »
>
>
> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 06:20, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>> On 03/11/18 15:55, djakk djakk wrote:
>>
>> No : bus relations are broken because of the way part, not because of the
>> node part. And detailed timetables will be associated with the nodes.
>>
>> Breaking a bus relation by cutting a street way in half does not implies
>> that the osm timetable breaks too.
>>
>> I do not see why timetables are hard to maintain ? Most bus lines do not
>> change their schedules for years (even in big cities, Paris for example).
>>
>> Mine seem to change every 6 months.
>>
>> Because changing the schedule means buy a new bus and hire new drivers.
>>
>>
>> Not here..some old buses.
>> Occasionally the driver makes a wrong turn .. and asks the passengers
>> where to go. Sometimes that is a new route, sometimes a new driver.
>>
>>
>> Julien « djakk »
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 3 nov. 2018 à 04:48, Joseph Eisenberg 
>> a écrit :
>>
>>> It sounds like we agree: detailed timetables for every bus stop are too
>>> much to maintain, but simple service hours and intervals assigned to a
>>> route are reasonable.
>>>
>>> This would be very useful for map rendering, because an intercity bus
>>> that runs every 10 minutes is quite different than one that run once a day!
>>> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 8:57 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 I'm siding with the idea of linking to an external data-base, as
 maintaining this in OSM is going to be a nightmare :-(

 On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 08:45, Joseph Eisenberg <
 joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sure! But how many GTFS feeds are there in the whole world, compared
> to the number of towns with public transit?
>
> I’m guessing that in Europe perhaps the majority of transit operators
> publish this info, but it’s not yet universal in they USA, and in Asia and
> Africa there are 10,000+ cities with no public transit info beyond what is
> available in OSM
>

 Somebody did mention Moovit earlier: https://moovit.com/

 & here is Moovit Indonesia, which may make sense to you but means
 absolutely nothing to me! :-)

 https://moovitapp.com/index/in/Tranportasi_Umum-Indonesia


> These cities rarely run strict timetables, but the interval (ie
> headway) between buses and “open_hours) (ie span of service) would be very
> useful and verifiable info.
>

 In cases like this, when you need to know that the bus to the big city
 should leave on Monday & Thursday mornings, is a bit of a different
 situation to 100s of routes with multiple journeys, & they would be doable.

 Thanks

 Graeme
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