Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Tod Fitch]

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> So what do you call "little houses on wheels that are towed behind your car 
> to stay in when you go on holidays"? :-)
> 
> Are they just "trailers"
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme

“Travel trailers”.

A generic plain “trailer” is probably for cargo or hauling your ATV, 
snowmobiles or “dirt bikes”.





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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 11:16, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> Just to be a little pedantic, 'motorhome' would also fit the big
> fifth-wheel units towed behind a monstrous great pickup -
>

I would have said that a 5th-wheeler would have been put in with towed
"caravans", as it doesn't have it's own motor.


> Most Americans would not recognize that 'van' is an abbreviation of
> 'caravan' nor recognize a 'caravan' as being anything but a camel
> train or a group of marching refugees.


So what do you call "little houses on wheels that are towed behind your car
to stay in when you go on holidays"? :-)

Are they just "trailers"

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:54 PM Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>
> Nope, a mobile home is not the same as an RV or travel_trailer. Have a look 
> at the illustrations on the Wikipedia page. It is, as the Wikipedia 
> definition says, a prefabricated structure meant for permanent living. It has 
> wheels, hence the mobile part of its name but it's moved very infrequently, 
> sometimes only from the factory to its location inside of a, here's another 
> American term, trailer park.

In fact, it's not at all uncommon that one of these, on arrival in a
trailer park, will be jacked, lowered onto piers, and have its wheels
and axles removed. That way, it's not resting on its tyres and having
them go out of round. If it needs to be moved again, a set of axles,
brakes and wheels can be reattached.

> An aside: As I consider this thread and the problems we're having with 
> terminology I came to the realization that most countries don't have such 
> things as we do in the U.S. Some of the motorhomes you see on American 
> highways are behemoths based on a full-size bus chassis, powered by big 
> rear-mounted diesel engines. I'd be willing to bet that no other country has 
> anything even approaching the sheer size of these things. And they are quite 
> common here. And are they expensive? Yep. 100 to 200K USD and up.

And the self-propelled or fifth-wheel 'motorhome' that Dave just used
in that paragraph isn't the 'mobile home' that would be
(semi-)permanently installed in a trailer park. There are many people
who live permanently in the units that are drivable, though. Often
they take seasonal employment in construction or toourism and move the
unit a couple of times a year to where the work is. They may rent a
space in a trailer park, or at a campground, or simply set up in the
parking lot of a Wal-Mart and occasionally visit a campground to take
on water and pump out sewage. Other more wealthy individuals might own
such a behemoth to spend holidays in, and count part of its expense
against the expense of a hotel room and restaurant meals (and the
drawbacks of restaurant meals versus home-cooked ones).

> Anyway, how best to describe the plethora of such vehicles, in the U.S. 
> especially where they are so common, in one word? The term motorhome fits 
> such monsters and works for many other smaller vehicles like your garden 
> variety Winnebagos and extended van conversions but cannot describe unpowered 
> trailers or, in British vernacular, caravans.

Just to be a little pedantic, 'motorhome' would also fit the big
fifth-wheel units towed behind a monstrous great pickup - or at least
the truck-trailer combination. Once you've outfitted a pickup chassis
with the fifth wheel, the brake lines, the auxiliary transmission oil
cooler, and the electrical system, you've pretty much created a
special-purpose vehicle for towing the thing! And that's before you
get into the ones that need a diesel semi.

Most Americans would not recognize that 'van' is an abbreviation of
'caravan' nor recognize a 'caravan' as being anything but a camel
train or a group of marching refugees. And most Britons would be
puzzled that American 'van's are always self-propelled.

> Where do we go from here?

Recognize that Brittania and her colonies are sundered by a common
language, and that the crazy Yanks need some words that are never
heard in the UK - to describe vehicles that are never seen in the UK.
The mandate to use UK English in tags breaks down when UK English
lacks the vocabulary!

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 14/01/19 11:52, Dave Swarthout wrote:
Nope, a mobile home is not the same as an RV or travel_trailer. Have a 
look at the illustrations on the Wikipedia page. It is, as the 
Wikipedia definition says, a prefabricated structure meant for 
permanent living. It has wheels, hence the mobile part of its name but 
it's moved very infrequently, sometimes only from the factory to its 
location inside of a, here's another American term, trailer park.


Wikipedia says
Used as permanent homes , or for 
holiday or temporary accommodation


Note the OR .. so are not just permanent homes?



An aside: As I consider this thread and the problems we're having with 
terminology I came to the realization that most countries don't have 
such things as we do in the U.S. Some of the motorhomes you see on 
American highways are behemoths based on a full-size bus chassis, 
powered by big rear-mounted diesel engines. I'd be willing to bet that 
no other country has anything even approaching the sheer size of these 
things. And they are quite common here. And are they expensive? Yep. 
100 to 200K USD and up.


Much much bigger than that. I know of one that is a tractor trailer 
(semitrailer in Australian).


Anyway, how best to describe the plethora of such vehicles, in the 
U.S. especially where they are so common, in one word? The term 
motorhome fits such monsters and works for many other smaller vehicles 
like your garden variety Winnebagos and extended van conversions but 
cannot describe unpowered trailers or, in British vernacular, caravans.


Where do we go from here?

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 6:43 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal
word! Should know better by now :-)

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen mailto:pla16...@gmail.com>> wrote:

However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
(the bold emphasis is mine):

Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of
*mobile homes* which includes
caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.

So mobile_home appears to cover it.


Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also
*trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*,
*residential caravan*) is a prefabricated
structure, built in
a factory on a permanently attached chassis before being
transported to site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used
as permanent homes , or for
holiday or temporary accommodation, they are left often
permanently or semi-permanently in one place"



It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility
vehicles and act as accommodation.

I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot.
Why is it unacceptable?
The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough
vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno lun, 14/01/2019 alle 10.42 +1100, Warin ha scritto:
> On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick
>   wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > Wow, so much for me naively thinking that
> >   caravan was a universal word! Should know
> >   better by now :-)
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen
> >   
> >   wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   However, there does appear to be a better
> > > term.  From 
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   (the bold emphasis is mine):
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   Motorhomes are part
> > > of the much larger associated group of
> > > mobile
> > >   homes which includes
> > >   caravans, also known
> > > as tourers, and static caravans.
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   So mobile_home appears to cover it.  
> > >   
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Not really, sorry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home:
> >   "A mobile
> > home (also trailer, trailer
> > home, house
> > trailer, static
> > caravan, residential
> > caravan) is
> > a prefabricatedstructure,
> > built in a factory on a permanently attached
> > chassis
> > before being transported to site (either by
> > being
> > towed or on a trailer). Used as
> > permanent homes, or
> > for holiday or temporary accommodation, they
> > are
> > left often permanently or semi-permanently in
> > one
> > place"
> > 
> > 
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility
> vehicles and act as accommodation. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot.
> Why is it unacceptable? 
> 
> The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is
> enough
> vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile. 
> 
>   
> 
> ___

However, since we talk about the store, they are not items that always
belong to a single market.
Better to make a distinction between movable home and wheeled home?
These terms sound good? :)


Lorenzo
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Nope, a mobile home is not the same as an RV or travel_trailer. Have a look
at the illustrations on the Wikipedia page. It is, as the Wikipedia
definition says, a prefabricated structure meant for permanent living. It
has wheels, hence the mobile part of its name but it's moved very
infrequently, sometimes only from the factory to its location inside of a,
here's another American term, trailer park.

An aside: As I consider this thread and the problems we're having with
terminology I came to the realization that most countries don't have such
things as we do in the U.S. Some of the motorhomes you see on American
highways are behemoths based on a full-size bus chassis, powered by big
rear-mounted diesel engines. I'd be willing to bet that no other country
has anything even approaching the sheer size of these things. And they are
quite common here. And are they expensive? Yep. 100 to 200K USD and up.

Anyway, how best to describe the plethora of such vehicles, in the U.S.
especially where they are so common, in one word? The term motorhome fits
such monsters and works for many other smaller vehicles like your garden
variety Winnebagos and extended van conversions but cannot describe
unpowered trailers or, in British vernacular, caravans.

Where do we go from here?

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 6:43 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal word!
> Should know better by now :-)
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>
>
>> However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
>> (the bold emphasis is mine):
>>
>> Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile homes*
>> which includes
>> caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.
>>
>> So mobile_home appears to cover it.
>>
>
> Not really, sorry
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also
> *trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, *residential
> caravan*) is a prefabricated
> structure, built in a
> factory on a permanently attached chassis before being transported to site
> (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as permanent homes
> , or for holiday or temporary
> accommodation, they are left often permanently or semi-permanently in one
> place"
>
>
> It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility vehicles and
> act as accommodation.
>
> I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot. Why is
> it unacceptable?
> The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough
> vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal 
word! Should know better by now :-)


On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen > wrote:


However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
(the bold emphasis is mine):

Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile
homes* which includes
caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.

So mobile_home appears to cover it.


Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also 
*trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, 
*residential caravan*) is a prefabricated 
structure, built in a 
factory on a permanently attached chassis before being transported to 
site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as permanent homes 
, or for holiday or temporary 
accommodation, they are left often permanently or semi-permanently in 
one place"




It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility vehicles 
and act as accommodation.


I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot. Why is 
it unacceptable?
The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough 
vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal word!
Should know better by now :-)

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:10, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> Graeme mentioned propulsion so I assumed we were talking about what in
>> the U.S. would be called motorhomes. Maybe then two top-level tags are
>> needed, as he suggested. One for caravans or trailers, another for powered
>> motorhomes, aka RVs.
>>
>
That's starting to look like it may be the best answer.

Have a question about searching though, which was raised previously. You
have a place that deals in both (self-propelled) "motorhomes" & also
(towed) "caravans", & it's tagged as a shop=caravan, with caravan=yes &
also motorhome=yes (ignoring the exact wording for the moment).

If you search for motorhome, will it be found because the details include
motorhome=yes, or would you have to search for caravan, because it's tagged
as a shop=caravan? (Sorry, I know that's badly worded but can't think of a
better way of putting it)

There are more subdivisions than that, as I found out when I googled for a
> more inclusive term.
> In the US the term RV is a blanket term covering self-propelled, trailers
> and all other
> sub-categories
>

That may be the best overall term?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_vehicle "A *recreational vehicle*
 (*RV*) is a motor vehicle  or
trailer  which includes
living quarters designed for accommodation"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recreational_vehicles


> I'm unhappy with using that term because people ride motorbikes (vehicles)
> for fun (recreation) and the same applies to sand buggies, golf carts, etc.
>

To me it suggests four-wheel drives / off-roaders!


> However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
> (the bold emphasis is mine):
>
> Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile homes*
> which includes
> caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.
>
> So mobile_home appears to cover it.
>

Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also *trailer*
, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, *residential caravan*)
is a prefabricated structure,
built in a factory on a permanently attached chassis before being
transported to site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as
permanent homes , or for holiday or
temporary accommodation, they are left often permanently or
semi-permanently in one place"

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:10, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> Back to the caravan vs motorhome distinction for a moment. By the way,
> Martin's page was in regard to access, so it's not so relevant to this
> discussion except to acknowledge that the term motorhome is in existence.
> Graeme mentioned propulsion so I assumed we were talking about what in the
> U.S. would be called motorhomes. Maybe then two top-level tags are needed,
> as he suggested. One for caravans or trailers, another for powered
> motorhomes, aka RVs.
>

There are more subdivisions than that, as I found out when I googled for a
more inclusive term.
In the US the term RV is a blanket term covering self-propelled, trailers
and all other
sub-categories (such as whether there is a divider between cab and living
space - RV versus
campervan), but I'm unhappy with using that term because people ride
motorbikes (vehicles)
for fun (recreation) and the same applies to sand buggies, golf carts, etc.

However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
(the bold emphasis is mine):

Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile homes*
which includes
caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.

So mobile_home appears to cover it.  It doesn't specify whether it's
self-propelled or a trailer
or any other variant.  It's something you can live in and it's mobile.  It
doesn't have the potential
to confuse those who are unfamiliar with the US term "RV."  Throw in
mobile_home:propulsion
and a few other subtags and it's sorted.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13. Jan 2019, at 11:10, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> However .. any new language will evolve and diverge, so it will eventually 
> end up like English ... confused.


any language will be optimized for the context in which it evolved, so German 
would be extremely suitable for mapping in Germany, but might be less so for 
other contexts. The idea to use it in a global mapping project was not 
completely serious, sorry if it created confusion.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 13/01/19 20:04, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 13. Jan 2019, at 09:51, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

I have no personal knowledge of the word caravan. To me, it makes no sense at 
all to label anything having wheels as a caravan when everyone knows a caravan 
is a string of freight-hauling camels negotiating the Sahara.


My dictionary;
A vehicle having 4 wheels pulled by a horse, traditionally inhabited by Romani 
people, circus folk, etc.
A group of merchants or others travelling together, as for safety, especially 
over deserts.

No mention of camels, yet that second definition fits there use.

I would have thought that the kiwis would stick to a strict British meaning of 
the word.




if we’ll ever do osm 2.0 it might be worth considering German as language for 
tags. Here it would be Wohnmobil and Wohnwagen and no association with camels 
whatsoever. ;-)


There are 'programming languages'. If possible I'd go for a 'mapping language' 
:)

I was rather proficient in machine language. Not practising that at all these 
days.

However .. any new language will evolve and diverge, so it will eventually end 
up like English ... confused.





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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Back to the caravan vs motorhome distinction for a moment. By the way,
Martin's page was in regard to access, so it's not so relevant to this
discussion except to acknowledge that the term motorhome is in existence.
Graeme mentioned propulsion so I assumed we were talking about what in the
U.S. would be called motorhomes. Maybe then two top-level tags are needed,
as he suggested. One for caravans or trailers, another for powered
motorhomes, aka RVs. The pages could be similar in tagging scheme but have
differing subtags.

Bu that seems both wasteful and will likely be confusing. We could
distinguish between the two basic varieties, motorized or trailer in some
other tag.

Dave

PS: Martin's idea about OSM v2.0. Good one, Martin!

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 3:51 PM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> Warin, You're in Australia, right? When I was traveling in New Zealand I'm
> pretty sure they called small motorhomes caravans. But maybe not.
>
> I have no personal knowledge of the word caravan. To me, it makes no sense
> at all to label anything having wheels as a caravan when everyone knows a
> caravan is a string of freight-hauling camels negotiating the Sahara. I say
> that in jest but yet, here we are again getting fouled up with usages in
> different countries. We are stuck with tourism=caravan_site as well. Nobody
> in the U.S. would ever refer to a campground hosting RVs and camping
> trailers as a caravan_site or caravan_park but in OSM, of course, we must
> do just that.
>
> Anyway, my reply needn't be restricted to "caravans" or trailers. It's
> merely an idea I wanted to mention. Just now, Martin replied with a page
> about motorhomes. I'll take a look and get back to you.
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 3:36 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 13/01/19 19:06, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>>
>> >Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would
>> be a good coverall term?)
>>
>> I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just stay
>> with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, with enough
>> thought, be made to work for all types of recreational_vehicles/caravans.
>>
>> There is a difference.
>> Caravans attach to a motor vehicle for moment.
>> Motor homes/campers are self propelled.
>>
>>
>> There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's solo
>> initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a sensible scheme
>> that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop and accessories shop by
>> using subtags to make the distinctions. (See the Services section:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags).
>> His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on this
>> list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all subtags
>> except those that already stand on their own, begin with the same keyword,
>> motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much detail as desired or
>> known.
>>
>> Hence, one might have
>> caravan:parts=yes
>> caravan:accessories=yes/no
>> caravan:sales=yes/no
>> caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
>>
>> type?  caravan:classification=* ? classifications could be local legal
>> ones. Other things are descriptions .. and OSM has a tag for that.
>>
>> second_hand=yes/only
>> caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also
>> gas/diesel?]
>>
>> I say again, caravans are not self propelled - they need to be pulled
>> along by something.
>> Oxford Dictionary: A vehicle equipped for living in, typically towed by
>> a car.
>> Origin Late 15th century (in caravan (sense 2)): from French caravane,
>> from Persian kārwān. The sense ‘covered horse-drawn wagon’ dates from the
>> early 19th century.
>>
>>
>> The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in America
>> for sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. Use it for
>> fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.
>>
>>
>> In the UK smaller 'back' roads are narrow - Toyota Landcrusiers are seen
>> as too wide, an American small Winabago is UK huge.
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells
 only caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.

>>>
>>> No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
>>> rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?
>>>
>>>
 Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style
 of caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be
 useful to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.

>>>
>>> Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
>>> "how" but no feedback yet
>>>
>>> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 

Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Warin, You're in Australia, right? When I was traveling in New Zealand I'm
pretty sure they called small motorhomes caravans. But maybe not.

I have no personal knowledge of the word caravan. To me, it makes no sense
at all to label anything having wheels as a caravan when everyone knows a
caravan is a string of freight-hauling camels negotiating the Sahara. I say
that in jest but yet, here we are again getting fouled up with usages in
different countries. We are stuck with tourism=caravan_site as well. Nobody
in the U.S. would ever refer to a campground hosting RVs and camping
trailers as a caravan_site or caravan_park but in OSM, of course, we must
do just that.

Anyway, my reply needn't be restricted to "caravans" or trailers. It's
merely an idea I wanted to mention. Just now, Martin replied with a page
about motorhomes. I'll take a look and get back to you.

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 3:36 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 13/01/19 19:06, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>
> >Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
> a good coverall term?)
>
> I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just stay
> with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, with enough
> thought, be made to work for all types of recreational_vehicles/caravans.
>
> There is a difference.
> Caravans attach to a motor vehicle for moment.
> Motor homes/campers are self propelled.
>
>
> There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's solo
> initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a sensible scheme
> that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop and accessories shop by
> using subtags to make the distinctions. (See the Services section:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags).
> His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on this
> list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all subtags
> except those that already stand on their own, begin with the same keyword,
> motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much detail as desired or
> known.
>
> Hence, one might have
> caravan:parts=yes
> caravan:accessories=yes/no
> caravan:sales=yes/no
> caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
>
> type?  caravan:classification=* ? classifications could be local legal
> ones. Other things are descriptions .. and OSM has a tag for that.
>
> second_hand=yes/only
> caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also
> gas/diesel?]
>
> I say again, caravans are not self propelled - they need to be pulled
> along by something.
> Oxford Dictionary: A vehicle equipped for living in, typically towed by a
> car.
> Origin Late 15th century (in caravan (sense 2)): from French caravane,
> from Persian kārwān. The sense ‘covered horse-drawn wagon’ dates from the
> early 19th century.
>
>
> The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in America
> for sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. Use it for
> fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.
>
>
> In the UK smaller 'back' roads are narrow - Toyota Landcrusiers are seen
> as too wide, an American small Winabago is UK huge.
>
>
> Dave
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
>>> caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.
>>>
>>
>> No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
>> rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?
>>
>>
>>> Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style of
>>> caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be useful
>>> to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.
>>>
>>
>> Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
>> "how" but no feedback yet
>>
>> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
>>> camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is difference
>>> between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
>>>
>>
>> motorised=yes / no?
>>
>> propulsion=towed / motorised?
>>
>> Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
>> a good coverall term?)
>>
>> It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
>>> to sell one or the other, but not both.
>>
>>
>> But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem that
>> you'll only be able to find one or the other?
>>
>> As I mentioned earlier, if we had
>>
>> caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer
>>
>> would you be able to search for the type you want?
>>
>> So, any thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>> PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> 

Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

while my dictionary also states that motorhome is an American term, we already 
have it established as access tag: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorhome

Cheers, Martin ___
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Tagging@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 13/01/19 19:06, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that 
would be a good coverall term?)


I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just 
stay with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, 
with enough thought, be made to work for all types of 
recreational_vehicles/caravans.

There is a difference.
Caravans attach to a motor vehicle for moment.
Motor homes/campers are self propelled.


There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's 
solo initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a 
sensible scheme that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop 
and accessories shop by using subtags to make the distinctions. (See 
the Services section: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags). 
His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on 
this list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all 
subtags except those that already stand on their own, begin with the 
same keyword, motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much 
detail as desired or known.


Hence, one might have
caravan:parts=yes
caravan:accessories=yes/no
caravan:sales=yes/no
caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
type?  caravan:classification=* ? classifications could be local legal 
ones. Other things are descriptions .. and OSM has a tag for that.

second_hand=yes/only
caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also 
gas/diesel?]
I say again, caravans are not self propelled - they need to be pulled 
along by something.
Oxford Dictionary: A vehicle equipped for living in, typically towed by 
a car.
Origin Late 15th century (in caravan (sense 2)): from French caravane, 
from Persian kārwān. The sense ‘covered horse-drawn wagon’ dates from 
the early 19th century.


The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in 
America for sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. 
Use it for fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.


In the UK smaller 'back' roads are narrow - Toyota Landcrusiers are seen 
as too wide, an American small Winabago is UK huge.


Dave

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:





On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout
mailto:daveswarth...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that
sells only caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.


No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts,
repair & rental. Any other options you can think of, or better
ways to word things?

Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type
or style of caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or
caravan:class might be useful to distinguish between type_a,
type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.


Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions
about "how" but no feedback yet

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome /
Winnebago / camper trailer etc, but then you get to the
problem of what is difference between a camper van, motorhome
& Winnebago?


motorised=yes / no?

propulsion=towed / motorised?

Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that
would be a good coverall term?)

It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
to sell one or the other, but not both. 



But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem
that you'll only be able to find one or the other?

As I mentioned earlier, if we had

caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer

would you be able to search for the type you want?

So, any thoughts?

Thanks

Graeme

PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)



--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com


___
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Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

>Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
a good coverall term?)

I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just stay
with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, with enough
thought, be made to work for all types of recreational_vehicles/caravans.

There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's solo
initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a sensible scheme
that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop and accessories shop by
using subtags to make the distinctions. (See the Services section:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags).
His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on this
list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all subtags
except those that already stand on their own, begin with the same keyword,
motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much detail as desired or
known.

Hence, one might have
caravan:parts=yes
caravan:accessories=yes/no
caravan:sales=yes/no
caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
second_hand=yes/only
caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also
gas/diesel?]

The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in America for
sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. Use it for
fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.

Dave

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
>> caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.
>>
>
> No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
> rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?
>
>
>> Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style of
>> caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be useful
>> to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.
>>
>
> Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
> "how" but no feedback yet
>
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
>> camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is difference
>> between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
>>
>
> motorised=yes / no?
>
> propulsion=towed / motorised?
>
> Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
> a good coverall term?)
>
> It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
>> to sell one or the other, but not both.
>
>
> But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem that you'll
> only be able to find one or the other?
>
> As I mentioned earlier, if we had
>
> caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer
>
> would you be able to search for the type you want?
>
> So, any thoughts?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)
>
>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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