Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On 30/1/20 11:43 am, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote: 29 Jan 2020, 23:31 by doerr.step...@gmail.com: On 29/01/2020 16:12, Jmapb wrote: IMO, unilaterally deprecating healthcare=clinic/dentist/doctor/hospital on the healthcare=* page is a bit heavyhanded. These are part of a voted and approved proposal. Completely unacceptable if that's what's happened. It is perfectly acceptable given deliberate starting of a thread to discuss it. Should not the debate occur before the change? Also note that proper description of situation was missing on wiki. Situations change with time. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
29 Jan 2020, 23:31 by doerr.step...@gmail.com: > On 29/01/2020 16:12, Jmapb wrote: >> IMO, unilaterally deprecating healthcare=clinic/dentist/doctor/hospital >> on the healthcare=* page is a bit heavyhanded. These are part of a voted >> and approved proposal. >> > > Completely unacceptable if that's what's happened. > It is perfectly acceptable given deliberate starting of a thread to discuss it. Also note that proper description of situation was missing on wiki. And once become aware about additional info it is possible to easily fix this.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
Andy, On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:36 PM Andy Townsend wrote: > > I suspect that trying to rely on wikidata/wikipedia for this link will > fail for a different reason though - the things that we tag in OSM won't > necessarily map 1 to 1 onto wikipedia pages. Sometimes an OSMer will > want to indicate that a wider area than is indicated in > GVP/wikipedia/wikidata, but much more often an OSMer will be tagging an > individual volcano that might not match where a historical eruption took > place (think Thera / Santorini, where a famous eruption left a big hole, > now surrounded by numerous modern features). > Santorini is listed in GVP's database. See http://volcano.si.edu/volcano.cfm?vn=212040. There was an eruption in 1950. Though this isn't the same as to what you were referring to. > > It does make sense to use (and document) GVP's "active" definition in > OSM, but there will be places in OSM where it's not a good fit, because > what was there that erupted earlier in the last few thousand years isn't > there now. > GVP also has a Pleistocene Volcano List for volcanoes that erupted during the Pleistocene period. They consider this database preliminary. > > > -- @osm_washington www.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 18:08, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > The problem is that new users of iD do not know that they are adding > tags like healthcare=pharmacy and dispensing=yes. > > I reviewed the pharmcies in the cities I have mapped, and found that I > had added healthcare=pharmacy to 8 features unintentionally, since I > used iD for my first year of mappping. > > Also they all have dispensing=yes, which is mostly true I think, but I > do not recall checking any option to add this, which makes me question > whether the tag has any meaning when it is automatically added by iD. Checking now, it appears dispensing=yes is not actually automatically added by iD when using the upgrade function on an amenity=pharmacy that does not have that tag. Although it _is_ added if you choose "Pharmacy Counter" as a POI preset when explicitly creating a POI or changing its category. --Jarek ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
On 1/29/20 3:07 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > In my hometown, the main road was California highway 96, so “ref=CA 96” > but we called it “Highway 96” so “name=Highway 96”. That's what I was thinking. Here we have a "name=highway 550", which is "ref=US 550", and another one is "name='Camp Bird Road', ref='CR 361', and "ref:usfs='FS 838'". I interpret the responses that for a road, (not an address) it should be "name=County Road 12" and "ref=CR 12". Most the addresses here use "addr:street='CR 12', but locals call it "Country Road 12", which is what the sign says. I'm just trying to get this right so I only have to fix it once. :-) - rob - -- https://www.senecass.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
On 1/29/20 17:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > The road heads from here to Kimbim, then to Piramid. "Jalan" means way > (or path / road / street, and the verb means "to walk", "to travel"). > It's common for roads in Indonesia to be named by the places which > they connect, usually focusing on the further destinations We have a few of these around Houston, too: I think the legal name of part of Texas Highway 6 is Alvin-Sugarland Road, and if I remember right there's also an Aldine-Westfield Road, Humble-Westfield Road, and the Katy Freeway (which, interestingly, doesn't become the Houston Freeway as you get close to Katy). However, here, the names are consistent and that name on the sign is usually how mail is addressed. I can only imagine the chaos that ensues when there's no one legal name for the road as they apparently do it in Indonesia. -- Shawn K. Quinn http://www.rantroulette.com http://www.skqrecordquest.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
On 29/01/2020 20:47, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: Wikidata already has the GVP property: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1886 So it's just a matter of ensuring that all volcanoes tracked by the GVP is present in Wikidata and has the correct P1886 value. To a regular human being rather than a wikipedian, that might as well have been written in Klingon. :) I suspect that trying to rely on wikidata/wikipedia for this link will fail for a different reason though - the things that we tag in OSM won't necessarily map 1 to 1 onto wikipedia pages. Sometimes an OSMer will want to indicate that a wider area than is indicated in GVP/wikipedia/wikidata, but much more often an OSMer will be tagging an individual volcano that might not match where a historical eruption took place (think Thera / Santorini, where a famous eruption left a big hole, now surrounded by numerous modern features). It does make sense to use (and document) GVP's "active" definition in OSM, but there will be places in OSM where it's not a good fit, because what was there that erupted earlier in the last few thousand years isn't there now. Best Regards, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
> I just checked. iD now (confusingly) calls the preset for this a "pharmacy > counter" rather than a pharmacy, although the tags are for a pharmacy. > There is an option, pre-ticked, for dispensing. You can chose to untick > it. > It's also in the raw tag list, of course. > > Paul Thank you. I have added a note to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:dispensing - this means that database users cannot expect "dispensing=yes" to have been added intentionally, sadly. - Joseph Eisenberg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 23:16, Clifford Snow wrote: > > Can you explain how that would work? Take the example of Mount Baker. It > has a wikidata Q code of Q594387. GVP has a volcano number of 321010. What > would a tag look like? Please excuse my ignorance of Wikipedia. I can read > articles and maybe understand some, but how Wikidata works is beyond my > comprehension :) > Go to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q594387 and search the page for "smithsonian." You see Smithsonian volcano ID 321010. Dunno if that's been there for a long time or somebody just added it in response to your post here. Explaining how to add those iDs to other Wikidata volcanoes is beyond the scope of this response. :) -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 09:17, Kevin Kenny wrote: > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 6:09 PM Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > > Also they all have dispensing=yes, which is mostly true I think, but I > > do not recall checking any option to add this, which makes me question > > whether the tag has any meaning when it is automatically added by iD. > > I wonder whether the tag has any meaning in the US at all. It's hard > to imagine a store paying a registered pharmacist just to dispense > things liike pseudoephedrine and iodine. > That's one that's often confused me, because in Australia,* every* chemist / pharmacy (some are called one, some the other, & a few drug stores are now also starting to appear) dispenses prescription medicine (or at least I've never heard of one that doesn't?). I guess it's different in other parts of the world? Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
Here in Indonesia there are very few official street signs, so I go by what is written on the signs of shops next to the street. For example, one of the main streets nearby has shops which say: * Jalan Kimbim No. ## * Jalan Piramid No. ## * Jalan Kimbim - Piramid No. ## I believe I've seen maps use either of these options. The road heads from here to Kimbim, then to Piramid. "Jalan" means way (or path / road / street, and the verb means "to walk", "to travel"). It's common for roads in Indonesia to be named by the places which they connect, usually focusing on the further destinations Most taxi and pedicab drivers recoginise one or both of these names, so I have used "name=Jalan Kimbim - Piramid", "alt_name=Jalan Kimbim", "loc_name=Jalan Piramid". Some street have no shops with signs, so I've just used what local people claim is the name of the street, if several people agree on the name. - Joseph Eisenberg On 1/30/20, Shawn K. Quinn wrote: > On 1/29/20 16:17, Paul Johnson wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM Joseph Eisenberg >> mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> In my hometown, the main road was California highway 96, so “ref=CA >> 96” but we called it “Highway 96” so “name=Highway 96”. >> >> >> I think you're confusing name=* with addr:street=* in that case, Joseph. > > JOSM has a mode where it renders highway=* with a color based on the > name=* and nearby addresses with color based on addr:street=*. This is > useful for finding misspelled and abbreviated road names either in the > address or on the road itself. I've always thought name=* was to refer > to the name of the road as used in addresses, usually indicated on > street signs. Have I missed something? > > -- > Shawn K. Quinn > http://www.rantroulette.com > http://www.skqrecordquest.com > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 23:09, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > Also they all have dispensing=yes, which is mostly true I think, but I > do not recall checking any option to add this, which makes me question > whether the tag has any meaning when it is automatically added by iD. > I just checked. iD now (confusingly) calls the preset for this a "pharmacy counter" rather than a pharmacy, although the tags are for a pharmacy. There is an option, pre-ticked, for dispensing. You can chose to untick it. It's also in the raw tag list, of course. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 6:09 PM Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > The problem is that new users of iD do not know that they are adding > tags like healthcare=pharmacy and dispensing=yes. > > I reviewed the pharmcies in the cities I have mapped, and found that I > had added healthcare=pharmacy to 8 features unintentionally, since I > used iD for my first year of mappping. > > Also they all have dispensing=yes, which is mostly true I think, but I > do not recall checking any option to add this, which makes me question > whether the tag has any meaning when it is automatically added by iD. I wonder whether the tag has any meaning in the US at all. It's hard to imagine a store paying a registered pharmacist just to dispense things liike pseudoephedrine and iodine. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 5:02 PM Shawn K. Quinn wrote: > On 1/29/20 16:17, Paul Johnson wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM Joseph Eisenberg > > mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > In my hometown, the main road was California highway 96, so “ref=CA > > 96” but we called it “Highway 96” so “name=Highway 96”. > > > > > > I think you're confusing name=* with addr:street=* in that case, Joseph. > > JOSM has a mode where it renders highway=* with a color based on the > name=* and nearby addresses with color based on addr:street=*. This is > useful for finding misspelled and abbreviated road names either in the > address or on the road itself. I've always thought name=* was to refer > to the name of the road as used in addresses, usually indicated on > street signs. Have I missed something? The name is only the name, it is not a ref or old_ref. This has even been in the wiki and normal practice for longer than I was even aware of the Names page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Name_is_the_name_only For street names as they appear in addresses, see addr:street instead. It's not uncommon at all for what gets put on the envelope is different than what's on the sign, or the value of addr:street= to not even be a street name but a highway number or even some internal route to whatever state postal system is present (such as RFD and RR addresses in the US). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 12:48 PM Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: > Wikidata already has the GVP property: > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1886 > > So it's just a matter of ensuring that all volcanoes tracked by the GVP is > present in Wikidata and has the correct P1886 value. > Can you explain how that would work? Take the example of Mount Baker. It has a wikidata Q code of Q594387. GVP has a volcano number of 321010. What would a tag look like? Please excuse my ignorance of Wikipedia. I can read articles and maybe understand some, but how Wikidata works is beyond my comprehension :) -- @osm_washington www.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On 29/01/2020 17:04, Paul Allen wrote: So it looks like dual-tagging is going to become the norm any time iD comes up with an alternative way of tagging something. Is that what actually happened? -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
> The healthcare=* tags were formally proposed and voted on 10 years ago. > Included in that proposal ( > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?oldid=1318635 ) was the idea > that dual-tagging some features with both amenity=*/healthcare=* would > be the norm until the healthcare=* tags had wide usage and software support. But healthcare=pharmacy was never included in the proposal. In fact the proposal authors originally wanted to change amenity=pharmacy to shop=pharmacy, but changed the proposal due to negative comments. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?oldid=1318635 - link to voted proposal This explains why healthcare=pharmacy was unused prior to the iD change (the other 4 tags had a small amount of use, though only a couple percent of the amenity=hospital/doctors/clinic/dentist tags) Note also that the voted proposal does not mention replacing amenity=clinic with healthcare=clinic, and does not specifically state that any tags are to be deprecated. - Joseph Eisenberg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
The problem is that new users of iD do not know that they are adding tags like healthcare=pharmacy and dispensing=yes. I reviewed the pharmcies in the cities I have mapped, and found that I had added healthcare=pharmacy to 8 features unintentionally, since I used iD for my first year of mappping. Also they all have dispensing=yes, which is mostly true I think, but I do not recall checking any option to add this, which makes me question whether the tag has any meaning when it is automatically added by iD. On 1/30/20, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 07:08, Jmapb wrote: > >> >> Although I feel that iD's a bit forceful with this stuff and should give >> users more information about what they're choosing to "upgrade," > > > They sort of do. > > If you look at the link I put up earlier > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42328, then click > on the Pharmacy node, you get told that (in this case) "Discount Drug > Stores has incomplete tags" & gives you the options to either Upgrade or > Ignore it. > > If you then click on the "i - info" button, it tells you that it should > have additional tags & the Suggested Updates are +healthcare=pharmacy > > Same applies to the medical centre with the option healthcare=clinic. > > All of which I've only found out about within this last week!, so I agree > they could be a lot clearer in their explanations. > > All in all though, I'd agree with the earlier comments of moving stuff away > from amenity into their own specialised fields eg healthcare, emergency & > so on. > > Thanks > > Graeme > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
The wiki can be edited by anyone, if there are problems with the text. My preferred method is to shoot first and ask questions later, in the American tradition. I've edited the Key:healthcare page to focus more on the current situation, remove the strikethrough text from these features, while it is discussed. Now it says:" healthcare=pharmacy Used in addition to amenity=pharmacy by one editor." (with a link to iD) The individual pages were never listed as deprecated - Joseph Eisenberg On 1/30/20, Steve Doerr wrote: > On 29/01/2020 16:12, Jmapb wrote: >> On 1/29/2020 8:50 AM, Lionel Giard wrote: >> >>> That's clearer when we get all the history thank you Joseph ! :-) >>> I agree with you that the added value of duplicating the key is very >>> limited, so i understand your edit on the wiki. ^_^ >> >> IMO, unilaterally deprecating healthcare=clinic/dentist/doctor/hospital >> on the healthcare=* page is a bit heavyhanded. These are part of a voted >> and approved proposal. > > Completely unacceptable if that's what's happened. > > -- > Steve > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
On 1/29/20 16:17, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM Joseph Eisenberg > mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: > In my hometown, the main road was California highway 96, so “ref=CA > 96” but we called it “Highway 96” so “name=Highway 96”. > > > I think you're confusing name=* with addr:street=* in that case, Joseph. JOSM has a mode where it renders highway=* with a color based on the name=* and nearby addresses with color based on addr:street=*. This is useful for finding misspelled and abbreviated road names either in the address or on the road itself. I've always thought name=* was to refer to the name of the road as used in addresses, usually indicated on street signs. Have I missed something? -- Shawn K. Quinn http://www.rantroulette.com http://www.skqrecordquest.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 at 07:08, Jmapb wrote: > > Although I feel that iD's a bit forceful with this stuff and should give > users more information about what they're choosing to "upgrade," They sort of do. If you look at the link I put up earlier https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42328, then click on the Pharmacy node, you get told that (in this case) "Discount Drug Stores has incomplete tags" & gives you the options to either Upgrade or Ignore it. If you then click on the "i - info" button, it tells you that it should have additional tags & the Suggested Updates are +healthcare=pharmacy Same applies to the medical centre with the option healthcare=clinic. All of which I've only found out about within this last week!, so I agree they could be a lot clearer in their explanations. All in all though, I'd agree with the earlier comments of moving stuff away from amenity into their own specialised fields eg healthcare, emergency & so on. Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On 29/01/2020 16:12, Jmapb wrote: On 1/29/2020 8:50 AM, Lionel Giard wrote: That's clearer when we get all the history thank you Joseph ! :-) I agree with you that the added value of duplicating the key is very limited, so i understand your edit on the wiki. ^_^ IMO, unilaterally deprecating healthcare=clinic/dentist/doctor/hospital on the healthcare=* page is a bit heavyhanded. These are part of a voted and approved proposal. Completely unacceptable if that's what's happened. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:07 PM Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > should 'ref' be 'CR 12', and then "name='County Road 12'" > > Sure, if local addresses say “123 County Road 12” and local people say “I > live on County Road 12”. > > If the name is “Old County Road 12”, that would clearly be a name, not a > ref. > > In my hometown, the main road was California highway 96, so “ref=CA 96” > but we called it “Highway 96” so “name=Highway 96”. > I think you're confusing name=* with addr:street=* in that case, Joseph. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
> should 'ref' be 'CR 12', and then "name='County Road 12'" Sure, if local addresses say “123 County Road 12” and local people say “I live on County Road 12”. If the name is “Old County Road 12”, that would clearly be a name, not a ref. In my hometown, the main road was California highway 96, so “ref=CA 96” but we called it “Highway 96” so “name=Highway 96”. -Joseph Eisenberg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On 1/29/2020 2:23 PM, Andrew Hain wrote: Is it time for another controversial decisions page then? The healthcare=* tags were formally proposed and voted on 10 years ago. Included in that proposal ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?oldid=1318635 ) was the idea that dual-tagging some features with both amenity=*/healthcare=* would be the norm until the healthcare=* tags had wide usage and software support. Carto started rendering healthcare=* features last year (or maybe late 2018) but ran into a bug. This is a setback for the healthcare=* tags, but people are still using them! Hopefully Carto will begin rendering them again soon. The iD team has decided to encourage the dual tagging in the mean time. Although I feel that iD's a bit forceful with this stuff and should give users more information about what they're choosing to "upgrade," this doesn't seem particularly controversial (especially compared to other iD decisions) because it's following an officially approved proposal. Jason ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Ski picnic room
amenity=shelter? Jan 29, 2020, 20:20 by luke.mar...@viacesi.fr: > I'm trying to tag a building which is a shelter with some vending machines, > tables and benches. > This type of building is called "salle hors sac" in french, and it seems that > the english counterpart would be "picnic room". > They are places where you are allowed to bring your own food and eat it. > > I've found nothing in the ski wiki page [1]. > > What tag(s) should be used for this? > > [1] > https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/49.55149/5.81066 > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
Wikidata already has the GVP property: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P1886 So it's just a matter of ensuring that all volcanoes tracked by the GVP is present in Wikidata and has the correct P1886 value. On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 4:20 AM Clifford Snow wrote: > > > Sent from my Android phone. > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 12:14 PM Jez Nicholson > wrote: > >> Work with Wikidata to link the GVP article to their record on the >> volcano, and only have the Wikidata link in OSM. >> > > Any Wikipedians on here want to take this suggestion on? > >> ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 20:15, Jez Nicholson wrote: > Work with Wikidata to link the GVP article to their record on the volcano, > and only have the Wikidata link in OSM. > Are you going to guarantee that ALL volcanoes listed by the GVP have corresponding Wikidata pages? If not, this idea seems sub-optimal. It also means more effort by the data consumer to find if the volcano is active or not: go to the wikidata page, search the wikidata page to find the GVP link, go to the GVP page. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] road names and refs
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:29 PM Rob Savoye wrote: > I was wondering about tagging roads properly. Previously it was > mentioned to use 'ref' for county roads, ie... "ref='CR 12'", but as the > road sign says "County Road 12", I was wondering about the proper way to > tag this. Should 'CR' be expanded in the 'ref' to "County Road", or > should 'ref' be 'CR 12', and then "name='County Road 12'" ? This also > applies to state Forest Service roads as well that lack a name tag. I'm > working on cleaning up some ancient crap from the TIGER import... > Both of these would be noname=yes and ref=* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
Sent from my Android phone. On Wed, Jan 29, 2020, 12:14 PM Jez Nicholson wrote: > Work with Wikidata to link the GVP article to their record on the volcano, > and only have the Wikidata link in OSM. > Any Wikipedians on here want to take this suggestion on? > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
Work with Wikidata to link the GVP article to their record on the volcano, and only have the Wikidata link in OSM. On Wed, 29 Jan 2020, 20:07 Paul Allen, wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 19:58, Clifford Snow > wrote: > >> >> I like the suggestion of having a link to GVP article. >> > > +1 > > -- > Paul > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highway=path for *all* mixed foot/bicycle highways?
Just my two cents from germany: In general hw=cycleway <> hw=path + bicycle=designated; hw=footway<> hw=path + foot=designated; hw=bridleway <> hw=path + horse=designated; For combinded foot and cycle paths: hw=path + bicycle=designated + foot=designated + segregated=no; For segregated foot and cycle paths: hw=path + bicycle=designated + foot=designated + segregated=no; hw=path was supposed to decrapate hw=cycleway/footway/bridleway (*that went well*) hw=path is not only for trials. You can use "informal=yes" (indocumented) if it's a path by "popular demand" and not a planned one. Path itself also does not imply anything about it's surface. For that use "surface=ground/compacted/asphalt/concrete/etc.", (*duh*) Of course I'm not very familiary with mapping conventions in the new world, so please take this at your discretion. Yours Hubert87 Am 27.01.2020 um 16:36 schrieb Jmapb: Hi all, just noticed this passage on the cycleway=* wiki page ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway ): For mapping a separate path (on a separate way) dedicated to cycling traffic use highway=cycleway. Foot traffic is restricted on these paths. * Do not use highway=cycleway on paths for both cyclist and foot traffic (such as shared paths). Instead use highway=path with bicycle=designated and foot=designated. Add also segregated=yes or segregated=no) as applicable. * For paths where cycling is not permissible use highway=footway. If cycling is permissible even if it is not signed but legally permissible on a path, use highway=path (and a combination of the segregated key and designated tag as applicable) and not highway=footway. (This was added by wiki user Aaronsta last May, with no change description.) Does anyone know if there was a discussion, here or elsewhere, that led to this change? My own impression over the years has been that mappers use highway=cycleway on anything that primarily for bicycle traffic, and add access keys for any other permitted traffic. Similarly for highway=footway. So "highway=cycleway + foot=yes" and "highway=footway + bicycle=designated" are quite common. Is there a general consensus that these are better mapped as highway=path? If so, we might want to consider standardizing the highway=cycleway and highway=footway wiki pages with this same rule. And also editing the highway=path page, which currently says it's not for use in urban situations. Thanks, Jason ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 19:58, Clifford Snow wrote: > > I like the suggestion of having a link to GVP article. > +1 -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Active volcanoes
Through a friend at the University of Washington I received the following reply: The Global Volcanism Program (GVP) that Steve pointed to you has the most consistently applied standard for classifying volcanoes around the globe. In that context, any volcano that has erupted in the Holocene [1] would be considered "active" -- which I know is confusing since no Cascade volcanoes are currently erupting or experiencing significant unrest. "Active" more speaks to whether the volcano could erupt again (and hence is still alive, or "active"), which is judged by whether it has erupted in the Holocene as well as whether there are signs of life (earthquakes under the volcano, degassing, deformation, etc.). The GVP also has a series of tags for things like primary volcano type, last known eruption, activity evidence, dominant rock type, etc. Having the GVP hyperlink volcano number would also allow users to see more detail about each volcano. I like the suggestion of having a link to GVP article. It's worth noting that we can not use the information contained in GVP articles because of licensing incompatibilities. GVP restricts use to non-commercial use and requires attribution. I have reached out to GVP to discuss linking to their database. My recommendation would be to not to expand volcano:status=active to as it is today. If we can link to the GVP database it would allow data consumers the ability to quickly gather the most recent information, much like the wikipedia/wikidata tags do today. [1] Holocene definition, for us non geologist, according to Wikipedia "The Holocene is the current geological epoch. It began approximately 11,650 cal years before present, after the last glacial period, which concluded with the Holocene glacial retreat." Best, Clifford On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:05 AM Mark Wagner wrote: > On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:47:39 +1100 > Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 27/1/20 6:24 pm, John Willis via Tagging wrote: > > > I agree with you that this is the scale that volcanologists use, > > > but people want to draw a distinction between something that > > > erupted recently compared sometime in the last 200 years > > > > > > Perhaps it is easier to just apply the “active” and “Frequently > > > active” tags via this third-party data source, > > > > "frequently active " means what? > > > > If it erupted last year .. but not for 200 years before that I'd not > > call it 'frequent'. > > > > > > > but it would completely remove mapper’s ability to add a mountain > > > to this list via tagging. > > > > > > Possibly "last_eruption=" if that is what you want??? > > > > "last_eruption" isn't that useful for determining activity: the > majority of the world's volcanoes are cinder cones, which almost never > erupt twice or more. > > -- > Mark > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- @osm_washington www.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] road names and refs
I was wondering about tagging roads properly. Previously it was mentioned to use 'ref' for county roads, ie... "ref='CR 12'", but as the road sign says "County Road 12", I was wondering about the proper way to tag this. Should 'CR' be expanded in the 'ref' to "County Road", or should 'ref' be 'CR 12', and then "name='County Road 12'" ? This also applies to state Forest Service roads as well that lack a name tag. I'm working on cleaning up some ancient crap from the TIGER import... -rob - -- https://www.senecass.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
Is it time for another controversial decisions page then? -- Andrrw From: Paul Allen Sent: 29 January 2020 17:04 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 16:39, Martin Koppenhoefer mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote: for things like pharmacies or hospitals this is only true as long as iD also adds the tags that carto supports along the “non-standard” tags, or their users will complain about things not showing up on “the map”. Or until carto gives in to iD (on the basis of numerical usage). So it looks like dual-tagging is going to become the norm any time iD comes up with an alternative way of tagging something. Carto and iD, they’re both very important for the actual tagging that people use. Yep. Anything decided here (on those rare occasions we manage to agree) can be overridden by carto and/or iD. It seems that, at best, we're filtering out bad ideas before they get to carto/iD. When I'm feeling particularly cynical, I wonder if we're serving any useful purpose. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Ski picnic room
I'm trying to tag a building which is a shelter with some vending machines, tables and benches. This type of building is called "salle hors sac" in french, and it seems that the english counterpart would be "picnic room". They are places where you are allowed to bring your own food and eat it. I've found nothing in the ski wiki page [1]. What tag(s) should be used for this? [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/49.55149/5.81066 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
Jan 29, 2020, 14:32 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com: > history > I added history section to healthcare=hospital page intending to document and explain origin, history and controversy around this tag https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:healthcare%3Dhospital#Tag_history Feel free to improve and edit it (like other parts of the wiki). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 16:39, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > for things like pharmacies or hospitals this is only true as long as iD > also adds the tags that carto supports along the “non-standard” tags, or > their users will complain about things not showing up on “the map”. Or until carto gives in to iD (on the basis of numerical usage). So it looks like dual-tagging is going to become the norm any time iD comes up with an alternative way of tagging something. Carto and iD, they’re both very important for the actual tagging that > people use. > Yep. Anything decided here (on those rare occasions we manage to agree) can be overridden by carto and/or iD. It seems that, at best, we're filtering out bad ideas before they get to carto/iD. When I'm feeling particularly cynical, I wonder if we're serving any useful purpose. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
sent from a phone > On 29. Jan 2020, at 14:49, Paul Allen wrote: > > Like it or not, iD has more influence on tagging than this list or carto > does. If > iD decides a certain tag should be used in preference to an alternative, or > that > dual-tagging should happen, then that's what happens. for things like pharmacies or hospitals this is only true as long as iD also adds the tags that carto supports along the “non-standard” tags, or their users will complain about things not showing up on “the map”. Carto and iD, they’re both very important for the actual tagging that people use. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On 1/29/2020 8:50 AM, Lionel Giard wrote: That's clearer when we get all the history thank you Joseph ! :-) I agree with you that the added value of duplicating the key is very limited, so i understand your edit on the wiki. ^_^ IMO, unilaterally deprecating healthcare=clinic/dentist/doctor/hospital on the healthcare=* page is a bit heavyhanded. These are part of a voted and approved proposal. Jason ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 07:25, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > > iD also brings up the "suggestion" that existing amenity=clinic, pharmacy & > > (I think) dentist tags by themselves are "incomplete" & should be upgraded > > by adding healthcare= > > eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42326 > > That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to find what percentage > of the healthcare=pharmacy tags were added by iD or other editors in > this way. One could crunch edit history of some affected nodes and see how many of the tags were added by which editor according to created_by tag on the changeset. While we're on the subject, "amenity pharmacy" would make a good addition to the recently discussed https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Counterintuitive_key_names wiki page. I'm also curious about your thoughts regarding public_transport=* double tagging, regarding tagging both wikipedia and wikidata, and regarding brand keys (name=McDonald's + brand=McDonald's) --Jarek ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
That's clearer when we get all the history thank you Joseph ! :-) I agree with you that the added value of duplicating the key is very limited, so i understand your edit on the wiki. ^_^ Le mer. 29 janv. 2020 à 14:49, Paul Allen a écrit : > > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 13:34, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > >> I looked up the history again, and it's clear that the healthcare tags >> which duplicated common amenity tags were never popular until they >> were added to the iD presets in 2017: >> > > Like it or not, iD has more influence on tagging than this list or carto > does. If > iD decides a certain tag should be used in preference to an alternative, > or that > dual-tagging should happen, then that's what happens. Only in the case of > very strong objections will iD undo some change it decided to make without > consultation with anybody else. > > As I said, OSM doesn't do joined-up thinking. It would be nice if it did. > > -- > Paul > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 13:34, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > I looked up the history again, and it's clear that the healthcare tags > which duplicated common amenity tags were never popular until they > were added to the iD presets in 2017: > Like it or not, iD has more influence on tagging than this list or carto does. If iD decides a certain tag should be used in preference to an alternative, or that dual-tagging should happen, then that's what happens. Only in the case of very strong objections will iD undo some change it decided to make without consultation with anybody else. As I said, OSM doesn't do joined-up thinking. It would be nice if it did. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 13:19, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > Changing this would require all database users, including all 4 map > styles on openstreetmap.org, to change what features are rendered, for > no clear benefit, and would also require retagging millions of > features. > Retagging need not happen immediately (or even at all) if carto dealt with both alternative tags. It would simply be a transition allowing a more rational tagging scheme to come into effect. > > Rather promiting double-tagging with healthcare=pharmacy is a problem: > it is a needless duplication which provides no additional information. > It was presumably done back in the days when people thought that OSM indulged in joined-up thinking. It is apparent now that OSM does not. No matter what the benefits of moving from amenity to healthcare, no matter how many on this list think we should do it, carto insists that there can never be aliases under any circumstances whatsoever. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
I looked up the history again, and it's clear that the healthcare tags which duplicated common amenity tags were never popular until they were added to the iD presets in 2017: https://taghistory.raifer.tech - compare "healthcare=pharmacy" and "amenity=pharmacy" - the Healthcare proposal was approved in November 2010 but usage is not visible till 2017 Request to add more healthcare presets: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3589 PR which added them, duplicating the amenity=pharmacy tag with healthcare=pharmacy: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/4329 Note comments against deprecating amenity=* tags in this issue and PR: "I don't agree with deprecating tags like amenity=hospital or amenity=doctors, which are in widespread use. But we could probably add the new healthcare tags alongside the old ones." "Yes, I was just talking about addig this one, not deleting the others." https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3589#issuecomment-260979736 There was no intention to replace amenity=*, and mostly the PR added new tags. Almost all of the usage has come since this change, but note that amenity=pharmacy is still significantly more common than all uses of the healthcare=* key, and it is increasing in spite of the iD editor making an odd choice of validation rules. - Joseph Eisenberg On 1/29/20, Paul Allen wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 12:51, Lionel Giard wrote: > > Is there something that i am missing here ? ^_^ >> > > Rendering. Dual-tagging by iD is to get the new tags in place whilst > retaining the old tags until standard carto (at least) decides to render > the > new tags. Given iD's relationship with Mapbox, I'm pretty sure that > Mapbox carto will eventually render the new tags (if it doesn't already). > > -- > Paul > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
> "The idea is to slowly deprecate the amenity tag" I don't see why we should deprecate a key used millions of times for important features like schools, hospitals, pharmacies, banks, gas stations, and parking lots. Changing this would require all database users, including all 4 map styles on openstreetmap.org, to change what features are rendered, for no clear benefit, and would also require retagging millions of features. The key "healthcare" was approved almost 10 years ago in 2010, and many of the newly introduced tags have been somewhat popular, but there has never been any momentum towards replacing the commonly used tags for hospitals, pharmacies and clinics, because there is no problem with the existing tags. Rather promiting double-tagging with healthcare=pharmacy is a problem: it is a needless duplication which provides no additional information. - Joseph Eisenerg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 12:51, Lionel Giard wrote: Is there something that i am missing here ? ^_^ > Rendering. Dual-tagging by iD is to get the new tags in place whilst retaining the old tags until standard carto (at least) decides to render the new tags. Given iD's relationship with Mapbox, I'm pretty sure that Mapbox carto will eventually render the new tags (if it doesn't already). -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
If i understood correctly the objective of the revamping of healthcare is to change the old way of tagging all these "amenity" (hospital, clinic, pharmacy, ...) and use the "healthcare" key instead. But at the moment, the preset is using both tags at the same time. So i'm asking the following question : "does tagging healthcare=pharmacy ALONE is enough (with any subtag if needed like dispensing=yes) ?". Theoretically, it should be correct if i'm understanding the healthcare scheme. Then we could propose to change the preset in the editor to promote a change of key (amenity=pharmacy -> health=pharmacy), instead of a simple "duplicating". @Joseph I think that you are "Jeisenbe" on the wiki ?! :-) I see that you changed the healthcare wiki page saying that we should use "amenity" key instead for the 'duplicated values' (clinic, hospital, ), but as said above, this seems counterproductive as the idea is to slowly deprecate the amenity tag, not to promote its usage ! :p Is there something that i am missing here ? ^_^ Le mer. 29 janv. 2020 à 13:26, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit : > > iD also brings up the "suggestion" that existing amenity=clinic, > pharmacy & > > (I think) dentist tags by themselves are "incomplete" & should be > upgraded > > by adding healthcare= > > eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42326 > > That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to find what percentage > of the healthcare=pharmacy tags were added by iD or other editors in > this way. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecate healthcare=pharmacy and healthcare=hospital
> iD also brings up the "suggestion" that existing amenity=clinic, pharmacy & > (I think) dentist tags by themselves are "incomplete" & should be upgraded > by adding healthcare= > eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=21/-28.07641/153.42326 That's interesting. I wonder if there is a way to find what percentage of the healthcare=pharmacy tags were added by iD or other editors in this way. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
