Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Key:locked

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 15:31, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There are also bicycle storage things with locked access.
>

Agreed, I've updated the proposal to apply to
bicycle_parking=shed|lockers|building. For example the bicycle cage might
just be there for shelter but not secured with any lock so anyone can get
inside, locked=no, or it could require a swipe card, key or PIN code to
access locked=yes.


>
> Some are access by key and some access by 'opal' card - a transport card
> usually used to pay for public transport but in this case may be used to
> access a bicycle storage shed.
>

Opal card (public transport card) I'd say that should be locked=yes since
you need an authorisation token (in this case the card) to access.
locked=yes doesn't imply anything about how widespread or accessible the
key is, just that you need a key.


>
> Examples https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/700749753 and
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/700749756 .
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Key:locked

[Warin]

On 26/3/20 12:52 pm, Andrew Harvey wrote:
I've put together a proposal for Key:locked at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:locked which 
I'm proposing to use on barriers like gates to describe physical 
access restriction via a lock.


Taginfo records 908 current uses 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/locked and it would be nice to 
document this tag as well work out if the current tagging practice 
makes sense or we need to make changes.


Would very much appreciate any feedback and discussion about the tag.



There are also bicycle storage things with locked access.

Some are access by key and some access by 'opal' card - a transport card 
usually used to pay for public transport but in this case may be used to 
access a bicycle storage shed.


Examples https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/700749753 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/700749756 .


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Tod Fitch]

> On Mar 25, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I would think that a default should be used - where the required language 
> name is not within OSM then the local language name should be used.
> This should stop the copying of the local language name into other languages 
> and reduce data bloat.
> Only when the name is different from the local name should another name:xx be 
> used, particularly where a different alphabet/symbols are used.
> 
> However, a sample case?
> The name Uluru is Yankunytjatjara, but probably shared with 5 other local 
> languages. So those language tags would all be the same value.
> The 'old' name is Ayres Rock, English language.
> There are many people that come there from overseas who speak other 
> languages, having their name in those languages may help them.
> 
> Common languages heard around Ayres Rock or Uluru are English, German, 
> Japanese, Chinese, French and some dialect of the Western Desert Language.
> 
> The peak is node 2251425855,
> the rock itself is way 32639987,
> the park is relation 8314513.
> 
> Some tags used at present are;
> 
> alt_name  Ayers Rock
> alt_name:cs   Ayersova skála
> alt_name:en   Ayers Rock
> name  Uluṟu
> name:cs   Uluru
> name:en   Uluru
> name:pjt  Uluṟu
> name:ru   Улуру
> 
> I would drop the tags name:en, name:cs, alt_name:en as they duplicate the 
> name/alt_name.
> I would keep the tags name:ru and alt_name:cs as they are different from the 
> 'normal' value.
> 
> I would also keep name:pjt as that is the source of the name and different 
> from the official language of the Country.
> 
Let's assume that I want to make a map for use by native speakers not covered 
by the name:* tags given. In your example case, I’ll pick Japanese as I don’t 
see a language code for that in your example. I would like to automatically 
transliterate the name value into kana (I believe that is the Japanese phonetic 
alphabet but I am no expert).

How do I determine the language of the glyphs “Uluṟu” so I know how to 
transliterate it?

If the current name:pjt=Uluṟu is retained in addition to the name=Uluṟu tag, I 
could determine the name is in the pjt language (the values of the name and 
name:pjt tags are the same) and then, with appropriate external references 
about the phonetics that language, automatically transliterate it for display 
on my map.

If you remove the name:pjt tag because it is redundant (i.e. the same value as 
the name tag) then there is no way for me to algorithmically detect the 
language the name is in. It makes dealing with internationalization of the 
final product much harder.

In your example above, the name:en and name:pjt values appear to be different 
“Uluru” vs “Uluṟu” (I have no idea how an “r” with an under bar is supposed to 
change the pronunciation). So why would you remove the name:en value?

Cheers!
Tod




signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Warin]

On 25/3/20 8:26 pm, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because while we
defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source normally, this
is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single citizen
of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a Russian
name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?

My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).


Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail, just answer
the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?

Bye
Frederik

I would think that a default should be used - where the required 
language name is not within OSM then the local language name should be 
used. This should stop the copying of the local language name into other 
languages and reduce data bloat. Only when the name is different from 
the local name should another name:xx be used, particularly where a 
differentalphabet/symbols are used.


However, a sample case?

The name Uluru isYankunytjatjara, but probably shared with 5 other local languages. So 
those language tags would all be the same value.


The 'old' name is Ayres Rock, English language.

There are many people that come there from overseas who speak other 
languages, having their name in those languages may help them.


Common languages heard around Ayres Rock or Uluru are English, German, 
Japanese, Chinese, French and some dialect of the Western Desert Language.


The peak is node 2251425855,
the rock itself is way 32639987,
the park is relation 8314513.

Some tags used at present are;

alt_nameAyers Rock
alt_name:cs Ayersova skála
alt_name:en Ayers Rock
nameUluṟu
name:cs Uluru
name:en Uluru
name:pjtUluṟu
name:ru Улуру

I would drop the tags name:en, name:cs, alt_name:en as they duplicate the 
name/alt_name.

I would keep the tags name:ru and alt_name:cs as they are different from the 
'normal' value.

I would also keep name:pjt as that is the source of the name and different from 
the official language of the Country.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Key:locked

[Andrew Harvey]

I've put together a proposal for Key:locked at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Key:locked which I'm
proposing to use on barriers like gates to describe physical access
restriction via a lock.

Taginfo records 908 current uses
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/locked and it would be nice to
document this tag as well work out if the current tagging practice makes
sense or we need to make changes.

Would very much appreciate any feedback and discussion about the tag.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 23:51, Tod Fitch  wrote:


I attempted to create a multi-lingual map recently and came to the
> conclusion that the suggestion in the wiki to repeat the name=*
> withname:=* was the only workable way we have at the moment for a data
> consumer to determine what the language used in the name value was.


Seems reasonable.  It might be sensible if the wiki mentioned this.  You've
followed this issue a lot longer than I have, so you're probably the best
choice of the two of us to do it.

>
> Same for the
> bilingual Welsh/English map, there is a non-OSM shape definition
> embedded in the renderer to help it decide what language is likely
> the default for the name tag value.
>

It may get the wrong answer if it has only the name to go on.  Sign
conventions in Wales have differed over the years and differ from
place to place anyway.  It is common to see something like
"Heol Napier / Napier Street" (I'm using "/" to represent a line
break and "Heol Napier Street."  Mappers vary in how they
tag such things: some "paint the label" and then make
the English and Welsh parts explicit in name:en and name:cy.
Some deliberately use only English, to find another mapper
comes along and uses only Welsh, and then an edit war
breaks out with both insisting that "Cardigan / Aberteifi"
is wrong because of some decision made at the Welsh
Mapper's equivalent of the Council of Nicea many years
ago.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Tod Fitch]

> On Mar 25, 2020, at 3:56 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 22:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick  > wrote:
> 
> Is there any reason to actually specify name:en= when English is the 
> Australian language?
> 
> It's not the language of all Australians.  Ayers Rock is now Uluru. So it may 
> be
> sensible, in some cases, to add name:en to allow for future such changes.  I
> probably wouldn't bother because local mappers ought to have an idea if the
> name is English or not.  However, the wiki suggest it's not only permissible,
> it's also desirable: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Repeating_name_with_language_specific_tag
>  
> 
> 
> & how about name:international?
> 
> The wiki doesn't seem to have that, but does have int_name.  Which it doesn't
> explain very clearly but seems to be for cases like IATA airport names.
> 

OSM doesn’t have a way to specify the language used for the name tag
value. If I recall correctly, there was some discussion about how to
do this by setting defaults for administrative areas or some other
bounding polygon a while back but it went nowhere. Part of the issue
is that it is a hard problem once you start considering features
that are on the border of multiple language areas or for any names
in areas that are multilingual. Another suggestion was to create a
new tag that would specify the language of the name tag value thus
providing the missing metadata. That was not received well either.

I attempted to create a multi-lingual map recently and came to the
conclusion that the suggestion in the wiki to repeat the name=* with
name:=* was the only workable way we have at the moment for a
data consumer to determine what the language used in the name value
was.

Near as I can tell, without this there is no worldwide way to
determine the language of the name tag. When I looked at how the
German map decided to transliterate names I found that they had to
resort to shape definitions embedded in the libraries. Same for the
bilingual Welsh/English map, there is a non-OSM shape definition
embedded in the renderer to help it decide what language is likely
the default for the name tag value.

Duplicating the value into a name: tag value at least gives a
data consumer a chance to decide how to process the name tag. For
monolingual areas this may seem wasteful but we don’t really have
any other accepted way of doing this at the moment.

Cheers!
Tod



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Refugee Site Location

[Joseph Eisenberg]

In the previous proposal (Proposed features/Refugee Site Location) at
least 6 people who opposed the proposal mentioned the key "place=" was
not acceptable.

Comments:

"What about places that are de facto village/town but still
administered by UNHCR or another humanitarian organization or
governmental agency?"

"...many long-term refugee camps have developed into a village or
town, where people live for many year. These permanent settlements
should be tagged as place=village or place=town, so if the tag for
refugee sites uses the same place=* key, then it is not possible to
use both at once."

"A refugee camp or site is more like a landuse=residential area or an
amenity=social_facility, so perhaps consider using
landuse=refugee_site or amenity=refugee_site, or a subtag of
landuse=residential, like residential=refugee_site?" (

"Using the place tag for this causes problems in situations where the
distinction between a refugee camp and a town is vague. Is a
settlement of over 100,000 people, that's existed for 30 years and has
schools, hospitals and a graveyard a city or a camp? I think it should
be tagged as both. If it isn't then OSM will either not have some of
the biggest refugee camps mapped, or it not have some of the largest
towns/cities in the area mapped. Either would be a serious omission.
Because of that, the refugee site should be tagged outside of the
place tag."

I'm disappointed that these concerns are being ignored. Instead, we
are told "''we recommend using only this key place=refugee_site and
not village/city since these sites have a status permanently different
to a “regular” populated place (the common legal framework of the
country doesn’t apply to it)''". That is ''not'' how we map places in
Openstreetmap.

See "Good_practice" "Don't  map your local legislation, if not bound
to objects in reality" and "Verifiability": we don't map what a
country claims to be true, but what is actually real. If a "camp" is a
30 year old settlement with >10,000 residentis, plus shops, clinics,
schools, places of worship etc, then it is a place=town, no matter
what the local government says.

Of course it can also be a refugee_site in a way, so the tag for a
refugree site should be something that does not conflict with
place=village/town.

Also, is there already an Import page set up by CartONG for the
proposal to import this info from the UNHCR database?

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 3/25/20, Manon Viou  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The proposed feature place=refugee_site to provide a way for mapping places
> sheltering refugees and/or internally displaced persons fleeing the effects
> of a natural disaster or a political crisis for example has already been
> debated and voted on from 30-01-2020 to 17-03-2020. It was then rejected by
> a narrow margin on the final day of voting.
>
> We have since tried to answer to the concerns and comments received, and to
> adapt and simplify the proposed tag to map refugee site location.
>
> We would like to discuss this tag with all interested people again during
> the Request For Comment phase, open until Friday, April 3rd. Thank you !
>
> Please visit the new feature proposal wiki page here :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Refugee_Site_Location_2
>
> Best regards,
> Manon
>
> [image: CartONG- Humanitarian mapping and information management]
>
> Manon Viou

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 22:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Is there any reason to actually specify name:en= when English is the
> Australian language?
>

It's not the language of all Australians.  Ayers Rock is now Uluru. So it
may be
sensible, in some cases, to add name:en to allow for future such changes.  I
probably wouldn't bother because local mappers ought to have an idea if the
name is English or not.  However, the wiki suggest it's not only
permissible,
it's also desirable:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Repeating_name_with_language_specific_tag

>
> & how about name:international?
>
> The wiki doesn't seem to have that, but does have int_name.  Which it
doesn't
explain very clearly but seems to be for cases like IATA airport names.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

While mapping recently here in Australia, I've spotted a few things listed
as name=Whatever, name:en=Whatever & name:international=Whatever.

Is there any reason to actually specify name:en= when English is the
Australian language?

& how about name:international?

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Simon Poole]

Note that lots of the wikidata names are nonsense and are simply derived
from the wikipedia page name (which a wp page has to have, but it
doesn't imply that the object actually has a name in the language of the
wikipedia you are looking at). For example the municipality I live in
has a German and a Swiss-German name, it -doesn't- have names in any of
the other 31 languages that are listed.

Simon

Am 25.03.2020 um 11:00 schrieb pang...@riseup.net:
> Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at all on
> objects which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too small a
> community to keep this updated and it has little value to duplicate to
> the efforts made by others.
> If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags
> according to the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata item it
> should be found/created.
> It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data from OSM
> and query the names the user wants to see from WD.
> This offloads a huge burden as I see it.
> All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name could
> be adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about geodata and
> names are for WD and best stored/updated there.
> If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk of
> these problems.
> When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages already
> present in WD.
>
> On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain
>  wrote:
>
> Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright issues)
> want to have lots of different name:XX tags?
>
> --
> Andrew
>
> 
> *From:* Frederik Ramm 
> *Sent:* 25 March 2020 09:26
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> *Subject:* [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?
>  
> Hi,
>
> the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because
> while we
> defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source normally,
> this
> is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single
> citizen
> of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a Russian
> name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>
> My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
> unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
> tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
> every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
> transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>
> A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in that
> discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the
> name tag
> but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
> Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>
> Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in
> OSM. I
> have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we also
> need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx tags.
>
> In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
> demonstrate
> that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually
> using
> this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy
> inflation of
> names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" - they
> come in,
> stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and go away
> again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and nobody cares
> for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed its name
> almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are still
> what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names suggest a
> data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community that
> cares for them.
>
> What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted in name
> tags? What do you think about
>
> * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
> invented just now)
> * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place
> names in
> these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
> or local name
> * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
> * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more
> (Roman)
> * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
> their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
> name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
> * ...
>
> Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail, just
> answer
> the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
>
> 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Refugee Site Location

[European Water Project]

Hello,

I followed the recent discussion on the OSM France mailing list.

Maybe there is value in creating a namespace for refugee_site instead of
place=refugee_site, especially if this tag will be sometimes be added to
nodes or areas which have other attributes not directly to being a refugee
site, like a city, town, district, building complex, etc.   Segregating all
refugee_site pertinent information within a "mixed" purpose node/area might
be useful when extracting data using overpass.  If place=refugee_site will
always be a standalone entity, a namespace probably wouldn't add much
value.

Example ...
refugee_site = yes/formal/informal
refugee_site:for = internally_displaced/refugee_only
refugee_site:operator = UNHCR/Red Cross/etc.
refugee_site:duration = permanent/temporary
refugee_site:population = 500,000

Best regards,

Stuart



On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 15:23, Manon Viou  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> The proposed feature *place=refugee_site to provide a way for mapping
> places sheltering refugees and/or internally displaced persons fleeing the
> effects of a natural disaster or a political crisis for example* has
> already been debated and voted on from 30-01-2020 to 17-03-2020. It was
> then rejected by a narrow margin on the final day of voting.
>
> We have since tried to answer to the concerns and comments received, and
> to adapt and simplify the proposed tag to map refugee site location.
>
> We would like to discuss this tag with all interested people again during
> the Request For Comment phase, open until Friday, April 3rd. Thank you !
>
> Please visit the new feature proposal wiki page here :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Refugee_Site_Location_2
>
> Best regards,
> Manon
>
> [image: CartONG- Humanitarian mapping and information management]
> 
>
> Manon Viou
>
> *Coordinatrice projet Missing Maps*
>
> [image: Email:] m_v...@cartong.org | [image: Skype:] manon.viou
> [image: Phone:] +33 (0)4 79 26 28 82 | [image: Mobile:] +33 (0)7 83889839
>
> [image: Address:] Chambéry, France - Lon: 05°55'24''N | Lat: 45°30'20''E
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 25 March 2020, Jyri-Petteri Paloposki wrote:
>
> I slightly disagree with this one. IMO a name in a foreign language
> would be admissible if it is recognised by native speakers of the
> language either back home or in the local community OR if the name is
> otherwise regarded correct by mainstream media or a language
> authority.

Yes, that line of reasoning is fairly widespread among mappers - 
considering secondary sources of information as valid sources of 
information for OSM and not requiring local verifiability but settling 
for compatibility with the major consensus narrative of the mapper's 
culture.

I have written in more detail about the problems of this idea some time 
ago in

http://blog.imagico.de/verifiability-and-the-wikipediarization-of-openstreetmap/

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 25.3.2020 16.20, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

In that case, please add it to wikidata with a reference, but it would
not be appropriate for Openstreetmap.

Unlike wikipedia and wikidata, which are based on references and
citations to "authoritative" sources, Openstreetmap has always been
designed as a primary source: we map real, current features which you
can visit in person.

I agree that names in fictional languages should not be added to
name: tags, nor any name which cannot possibly be confirmed to be
true or false by local mappers.

If an Indonesian mapper adds name:id=* tags to every village in
northern Finland, how is anyone to confirm that they are right or
wrong?


I strongly disagree with this. IMO the OSM data should be useful, and 
because of that we should use our common sense just as in any other 
tagging issue. The data won't be useful, if we can't actually add all 
the relevant information but instead limit to whatever information is 
available strictly on-the-ground. If this were the case, I'd found a new 
project for actually useful information and stop contributing to OSM.


In my email I provided two links for verifying the Finnish name Jokohama 
for Yokohama. Do you believe it's easier to find someone local in 
Yokohama to verify this instead of verifying it online? If an Indonesian 
mapper adds a name:id=* to the villages in Northern Finland, I wouldn't 
go on-site to verify the data, I'd rather look up the names online. 
That's the same thing I do as a first step to any data in Finland, even 
data in Finnish.


I know ground verifiability is the guideline in OSM, but I'm sure 
there's plenty of other tags that also somewhat expand from it. The wiki 
even acknowledges this: ”OSM data should, as far as is reasonably 
possible, be verifiable.” – the point I'm making being _reasonably 
possible_. IMO the requirement you're suggesting isn't reasonable.


Best regards,
--
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 126, Issue 81, message 2, Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[St Niklaas]

Hi Paul.,

The flag of this discussion is IMHO not the question, but more about the source.
Like you stated there are a lot of objects without a page, so lets stop 
announcing Wikipedia & Wikimedia as reliable sources, but name them for what is 
is second hand information.
Which is not usable for OSM, that florish by first hand information found or 
seen on the spot by a surveying mapper.

Greetz

Hendrikklaas

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Mar 25, 2020, 10:26 by frede...@remote.org:

> A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in that
> discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the name tag
> but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
> Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>
It is actually used as language by some.

> Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in OSM. I
> have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we also
> need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx tags.
>
Klingon is actually not used for communication.
Some people may "use" it like Sindarin, but it is not "real" use.
(hard to define it properly, but I expect that it is a consensus perception
of situation)

> In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can demonstrate
> that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually using
> this name for this entity. 
>
Makes sense to me.

> The country North Macedonia changed its name
> almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are still
> what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names suggest a
> data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community that
> cares for them.
>
Note that changing official name of the country does not mean that
primary name used by people using other languages changed.

I think that it would in case of my language
official_name:pl=Macedonia Północna
name:pl=Macedonia

> What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted in name
> tags? What do you think about
>
> * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
> invented just now)
>
Obviously no, I would delete it if spotted (via deleting all
name:fredlang tags or whatever else tag was used).

> * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place names in
> these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
> or local name
>
Obviously no, I would delete it if spotted (via deleting all
name:sindarin tags or whatever tag was used).

> * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>
Yes (?)

> * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more (Roman)
>
No (?)

> * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
> their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
> name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
>
I would be OK with that. But I know that many are opposed
to adding transcribed names.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> "if the name is otherwise regarded correct by mainstream media or a language 
> authority."

In that case, please add it to wikidata with a reference, but it would
not be appropriate for Openstreetmap.

Unlike wikipedia and wikidata, which are based on references and
citations to "authoritative" sources, Openstreetmap has always been
designed as a primary source: we map real, current features which you
can visit in person.

I agree that names in fictional languages should not be added to
name: tags, nor any name which cannot possibly be confirmed to be
true or false by local mappers.

If an Indonesian mapper adds name:id=* tags to every village in
northern Finland, how is anyone to confirm that they are right or
wrong?

-- Joseph EIsenberg

On 3/25/20, Jyri-Petteri Paloposki  wrote:
> On 25.3.2020 12.58, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>> In terms of our traditional values and principles active use of the name
>> is not the necessary criterion, it is verifiable local knowledge.  Like
>> with any kind of names practical verification of names would be
>> possible by inquiring about the name to people locally.  This
>> essentially means the following practical requirements:
>>
>> * there being a sufficient number of people present locally that
>> speak/write the language in question.  Those don't have to be people
>> living there, it can also be visitors.
>> * these people knowing the name in said language - being able to look it
>> up on some external source does not count, that is wikipedia
>> verifiability, not OSM verifiability.
>> * these people largely consistently agreeing on the same name.
>
> I slightly disagree with this one. IMO a name in a foreign language
> would be admissible if it is recognised by native speakers of the
> language either back home or in the local community OR if the name is
> otherwise regarded correct by mainstream media or a language authority.
>
> I recently checked if the foreign cities listed in the Finnish Wikipedia
> as having a specific Finnish name were correct in OSM. I stumbled upon
> Yokohama, for which I didn't know there's a Finnish wording (Jokohama).
> However once I saw it, it definitely is understandable and clearly
> Finnish. It is also used by the Finnish mainstream media[1] and endorsed
> by the Institute for the Languages of Finland[2], which is the authority
> responsible for recommendations concerning the Finnish language. Still,
> if asked, I wouldn't have instantly been able to recognise the name as
> correct despite being a native Finnish speaker.
>
> 1) https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10956002
> 2) http://www.kielitoimistonohjepankki.fi/haku/jokohama/ohje/633
>
> Best regards,
> --
> Jyri-Petteri Paloposki
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Refugee Site Location

[Manon Viou]

 
 
  
   Hello, 
  
  
   
  
  
   
The proposed feature place=refugee_site to provide a way for mapping places sheltering refugees and/or internally displaced persons fleeing the effects of a natural disaster or a political crisis for example has already been debated and voted on from 30-01-2020 to 17-03-2020. It was then rejected by a narrow margin on the final day of voting.  
   
   

   
   
We have since tried to answer to the concerns and comments received, and to adapt and simplify the proposed tag to map refugee site location.  
   
   

   
   
We would like to discuss this tag with all interested people again during the Request For Comment phase, open until Friday, April 3rd. Thank you ! 
   
   

   
   
Please visit the new feature proposal wiki page here : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Refugee_Site_Location_2
   
   

   
   
Best regards, 
   
   
Manon
   
   

   
  
  
   
   Manon Viou
   Coordinatrice projet Missing Maps
m_v...@cartong.org |  manon.viou +33 (0)4 79 26 28 82 |  +33 (0)7 83889839
    Chambéry, France - Lon: 05°55'24''N | Lat: 45°30'20''E
   
 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Jyri-Petteri Paloposki]

On 25.3.2020 12.58, Christoph Hormann wrote:

In terms of our traditional values and principles active use of the name
is not the necessary criterion, it is verifiable local knowledge.  Like
with any kind of names practical verification of names would be
possible by inquiring about the name to people locally.  This
essentially means the following practical requirements:

* there being a sufficient number of people present locally that
speak/write the language in question.  Those don't have to be people
living there, it can also be visitors.
* these people knowing the name in said language - being able to look it
up on some external source does not count, that is wikipedia
verifiability, not OSM verifiability.
* these people largely consistently agreeing on the same name.


I slightly disagree with this one. IMO a name in a foreign language 
would be admissible if it is recognised by native speakers of the 
language either back home or in the local community OR if the name is 
otherwise regarded correct by mainstream media or a language authority.


I recently checked if the foreign cities listed in the Finnish Wikipedia 
as having a specific Finnish name were correct in OSM. I stumbled upon 
Yokohama, for which I didn't know there's a Finnish wording (Jokohama). 
However once I saw it, it definitely is understandable and clearly 
Finnish. It is also used by the Finnish mainstream media[1] and endorsed 
by the Institute for the Languages of Finland[2], which is the authority 
responsible for recommendations concerning the Finnish language. Still, 
if asked, I wouldn't have instantly been able to recognise the name as 
correct despite being a native Finnish speaker.


1) https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10956002
2) http://www.kielitoimistonohjepankki.fi/haku/jokohama/ohje/633

Best regards,
--
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 10:02,  wrote:

> Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at all on
> objects which has a Wikidata reference.
>

Not all mappable objects have a Wikidata reference.  Cities and big towns,
yes.
Villages and hamlets, most but not all.  Even where a wikidata reference
exists,
not all languages are given, even when some are actually used by locals.

I live in Wales.  Wales is multilingual, Welsh and English.  For some
hamlets
and villages there is no English Wikipedia page, just a Welsh one.  The
Wikidata items for Welsh-only Wikipedia pages often have only the Welsh
name.
The road signs have both Welsh and English on them.

Some of the small hamlets don't have a Wikipedia page at all, and no
Wikidata
item either.

There is no Wikidata item for the short street around the corner from me.
Its
road sign says "Heol Napier / Napier Street" (the "/" isn't on the sign, I'm
using it to represent a line break).  If that sign were replaced, it might
instead say "Heol Napier Street."  There are a lot of mappable objects
which don't have Wikidata items yet require names in at least two
languages just to satisfy the people that live there on a permanent
basis.

We can't rely on Wikidata in multilingual localities.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 09:27, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

>
> * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
> invented just now)
>

Nope.  I'm tempted because you could use those "words" as a binary
code that maps to words in English.  Make one of those words the space
character and the other the tab character and all anyone would see is
white space.  Somebody wrote a module for the programming language
Perl that lets you write entire programs using just those two characters,
so the concept works.  And would be amusing.  But not very sensible.

* popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place names in
> these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
> or local name
>

Nope.  Definitely not.  Not until Klingons pay us a visit.  Or we have a
large community where everyone speaks Klingon as a first language.

* "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>

Maybe.  But it's just going to be a variant spelling of the real
name, at most.  Unless the place name has a meaning or can be
decomposed into words with meanings, that can be translated.
So nope, until there is a large community of people who
speak Esperanto as a first language.

* languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more (Roman)
>

Latin is spoken in the Holy See.  But not as a first language.  Still nope.

* languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
> their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
> name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
>

That's where it gets tricky.  If the symbols are sufficiently different,
or the same symbols are used but have different meanings, then
yes.  Ideographic languages such as Japanese are very different.
Cyrillic, used in some Former Soviet Union countries, uses
many of the same symbols as the Latin alphabet but gives
some of them different sounds, as well as having a few extra
symbols.

Those two should definitely be allowed, even if they give words pronounced
identically to the real name.  I'm sure Russians would want to see the names
of towns in Russia rendered in Cyrillic, but I'd find it useful to see the
name
in English whether pronounced the same or differently.

What if the difference is real but slight?  Rome/Roma?  Again, I'd
say yes.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 25. März 2020 um 10:27 Uhr schrieb Frederik Ramm <
frede...@remote.org>:

> In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can demonstrate
> that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually using
> this name for this entity.



There are a few notable exceptions where a name in a "not so much living
anymore" language might be quite useful and undisputed. I am thinking for
example about Latin in Europe, northern Africa and the Middle East here.
Currently we have about 7000 Latin names in the db.

(there are some few instances that are probably disposable, e.g. it is
strange to see latin names in Australia or Latin America
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Ala#map )

* niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
> invented just now)
>
* "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>


I would be against all constructed languages, maybe with an exception of
those that are spoken by more than 100.000 people or who have at least 2
people that speak them as a first language.



> * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place names in
> these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
> or local name
>


not needed (if you can derive them, we do not have to store them)



>
> * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more (Roman)
>


see above



> * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
> their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
> name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
>


the (old) question is, if you do not repeat the original name, how do you
distinguish situations of missing name and same name hence omitted?

Cheers
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 25 March 2020, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
> demonstrate that people natively speaking the living language xx are
> actually using this name for this entity. 

In terms of our traditional values and principles active use of the name 
is not the necessary criterion, it is verifiable local knowledge.  Like 
with any kind of names practical verification of names would be 
possible by inquiring about the name to people locally.  This 
essentially means the following practical requirements:

* there being a sufficient number of people present locally that 
speak/write the language in question.  Those don't have to be people 
living there, it can also be visitors.
* these people knowing the name in said language - being able to look it 
up on some external source does not count, that is wikipedia 
verifiability, not OSM verifiability.
* these people largely consistently agreeing on the same name.

Example:

La tour Eiffel:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/5013364

has a verifiable name:de, name:en, name:ru and probably quite a few 
other languages as you could go there (normally, not right now of 
course) and inquire people there about the name in those languages and 
(a) would find people who can tell it from their own knowledge and (b) 
these names largely match.

> I think we have a very 
> unhealthy inflation of names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose
> mappers" - they come in, stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto
> everything, and go away again. [...]

I don't think that is the main problem here.  There are certainly people 
whose main mapping activity is to add name translations from external 
data sources but that is not really the issue here as far as i can see.

It seems to me the problem is more that we have meanwhile a significant 
fraction of mappers who reject OSMs traditional value of local 
verifiability and map according to other principles (in particular the 
usefulness principle - that anything that is useful for certain data 
users can and should be added to the OSM database).  My estimate would 
be that this applies to at least about 25-30 percent of the active 
mappers - possibly significantly more especially if you include 
participants in organized mapping activities.

So the problem we are struggling with here is IMO not specific to name 
tagging but more about a fairly fundamental division within the OSM 
community about the basic premise of the project.  

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Phake Nick]

在 2020年3月25日週三 18:34，Frederik Ramm  寫道：

> Hi,
>
> On 25.03.20 11:19, Phake Nick wrote:
> > My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
> > unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the
> name
> > tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
> > every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
> > transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
> >
> > Isn't that the function of the key?
>
> Unsure which of my list items you mean - copying the original name is
> not the function of the key; a data user can simply fall back to the
> name tag if no name:xx is given. Making a transliteration is also not
> the the function of the key, since transliterations can be automated.
> Making a translation is *certainly* not wanted!
>

How can a data consumer know that whether end user of a certain language is
going to understand the original language?
And transliteration cannot be automated. There are many specific rules and
exceptions when transliterting place names in different language software.
There are already some OSM-based software that would offer automatic
transliteration but their results are far from being usable. Making
translation is *absolutely essential* for people from different part of the
world to make use of OSM data. Last time when I was travelling in some
foreign nations, I have to give up using OSM because of poor coverage of
translated name for my language in that country which make me unable to
understand what the OSM map is saying.

> Adding Klingon name would not cause copyright issue since vocabularies
> > are not copyrightable.
>
> If someone adds a name and specifies a source web page, and the source
> web page says "all rights reserved", then I will not start a legal
> discussion.
>

Adding the word "All right reserved" on a page doesn't mean it is actually
all right reserved. Of I write "all right reserved" under my shop's tirle,
would you stop adding my shop's name into OSM?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 25.03.20 11:19, Phake Nick wrote:
> My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
> unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
> tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
> every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
> transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
> 
> Isn't that the function of the key?

Unsure which of my list items you mean - copying the original name is
not the function of the key; a data user can simply fall back to the
name tag if no name:xx is given. Making a transliteration is also not
the the function of the key, since transliterations can be automated.
Making a translation is *certainly* not wanted!

> Adding Klingon name would not cause copyright issue since vocabularies
> are not copyrightable.

If someone adds a name and specifies a source web page, and the source
web page says "all rights reserved", then I will not start a legal
discussion.

> That is just the same problem with TIGER map data. I don't think anyone
> have ever proposed removing United States data from the OpenStreetMap
> database due to lack of maintainers back then?

Thank you for this comparison. People certainly use TIGER as an example
for not adding more of the same, and a lot of thought has gone into
identifying "TIGER deserts" and how to handle the stale data. If we can
start seeing the name inflation as a problem, stop adding "more of the
same", and develop strategies to deal with stale and possibly incorrect
names, that would already be a huge gain!

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Phake Nick]

在 2020年3月25日週三 17:27，Frederik Ramm  寫道：

> Hi,
>
> the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because while we
> defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source normally, this
> is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single citizen
> of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a Russian
> name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>

I believe in this situation, local knowledge refer to language of users of
the language.

My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
> unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
> tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
> every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
> transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>

Isn't that the function of the key? How else are you supposed to use data
in OSM for users who use different languages? Even if a name isn't unique,
how can data consumer figure out the name automatically?

A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in that
> discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the name tag
> but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
> Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>

I cannot see why Esperanto being constructed language would cause any
problem to the addition of value in the language into OSM. The wiki
description for lang:xx say it accept BCP47 values, and the "xx" part of
the BCP47 is actually based on the ISO 639standard, and eo is indeed the
ISO 639-1 code for Esperanto.

Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in OSM. I
> have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we also
> need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx tags.
>

Adding Klingon name would not cause copyright issue since vocabularies are
not copyrightable. It's like if you come up with the word "McDonald's" and
then say it is the name of your shop, you cannot stop others from speaking
or writing the word "McDomald's" or claim there are any copyright involved
in such usage.

In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can demonstrate
> that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually using
> this name for this entity.


How are editors supposed to demonstrate that when editing OSM? This is
beyond ridiculous.

I think we have a very unhealthy inflation of
> names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" - they come in,
> stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and go away
> again.


They are a great help to the project of OpenStreetMap and I have been
trying to find and promote tools that will help people to translate names
into their languages.

Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and nobody cares
> for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed its name
> almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are still
> what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names suggest a
> data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community that
> cares for them.
>

That is just the same problem with TIGER map data. I don't think anyone
have ever proposed removing United States data from the OpenStreetMap
database due to lack of maintainers back then?

> 
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 25.03.20 10:45, Andrew Hain wrote:
> Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright issues) want
> to have lots of different name:XX tags?

I thought I had given a couple of reasons in my post.

If you have not understood them, I'm happy to rephrase.

If you *have* understood them but think that there is a desirable value
that outweighs my reasons, it would be nice if you could state more
explicitly what you perceive that value to be and where *you* would draw
the line!

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[pangose]

Honestly I don't think it makes sense for OSM to have names at all on objects 
which has a Wikidata reference. We are just too small a community to keep this 
updated and it has little value to duplicate to the efforts made by others. 
If any names I suggest we have a bot autoupdating all name tags according to 
the values in Wikidata. If there is no Wikidata item it should be found/created.
It really is'nt hard to populate a map with geographical data from OSM and 
query the names the user wants to see from WD.
This offloads a huge burden as I see it.
All our tools that currently invites our users to include a name could be 
adapted so that the user is aware that OSM is about geodata and names are for 
WD and best stored/updated there.
If we allow a name to be set only when no qid we avoid the bulk of these 
problems. 
When a qid is set a bot could remove all names for languages already present in 
WD.

On March 25, 2020 10:45:03 AM GMT+01:00, Andrew Hain 
 wrote:
>Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright issues) want
>to have lots of different name:XX tags?
>
>--
>Andrew
>
>
>From: Frederik Ramm 
>Sent: 25 March 2020 09:26
>To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
>
>Subject: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?
>
>Hi,
>
>the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because while
>we
>defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source normally, this
>is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single
>citizen
>of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a Russian
>name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>
>My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
>unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
>tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
>every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
>transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>
>A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in that
>discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the name
>tag
>but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
>Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>
>Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in OSM.
>I
>have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we also
>need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx tags.
>
>In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can
>demonstrate
>that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually using
>this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy inflation
>of
>names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" - they come in,
>stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and go away
>again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and nobody cares
>for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed its name
>almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are still
>what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names suggest a
>data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community that
>cares for them.
>
>What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted in name
>tags? What do you think about
>
>* niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
>invented just now)
>* popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place names in
>these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
>or local name
>* "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
>* languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more
>(Roman)
>* languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
>their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
>name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
>* ...
>
>Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail, just
>answer
>the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>
>Bye
>Frederik
>
>--
>Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
>E008°23'33"
>
>___
>Tagging mailing list
>Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Jo]

Well, since I'm able to communicate in Esperanto, albeit not fluently
anymore, I would definitely like to keep name:eo, probably interlingua and
those as well.

I'm not expecting an invasion of Klingons or Elven, so those don't seem all
that useful.

Roman, you mean Latin? It existed, people communicated using it, and I know
the name of my city and a few others in Latin (thank you Asterix), so that
one makes sense too, I'd say. Don't know about Sumerian or Egyptian
hieroglyphs...

There are also transliterations between alphabets. Those depend on how the
person doing the transliteration thinks the name should be pronounced and
even if people agree on how to pronounce the name, they might still
transliterate differently because they use those characters for different
sounds in their own language.

I have been considering to add IPA to the street names of Brussels... No
matter which voice language I choose in OSMAND, part of the name will
always be pronounced wrong.

It even almost gets funny in the case of "Rue Conscience -
Consciencestraat". That should always be pronounced the French way, never
the English way, but alas.

Polyglot

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 10:27 AM Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because while we
> defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source normally, this
> is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single citizen
> of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a Russian
> name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?
>
> My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
> unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
> tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
> every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
> transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).
>
> A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in that
> discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the name tag
> but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
> Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.
>
> Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in OSM. I
> have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we also
> need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx tags.
>
> In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can demonstrate
> that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually using
> this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy inflation of
> names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" - they come in,
> stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and go away
> again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and nobody cares
> for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed its name
> almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are still
> what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names suggest a
> data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community that
> cares for them.
>
> What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted in name
> tags? What do you think about
>
> * niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
> invented just now)
> * popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place names in
> these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
> or local name
> * "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
> * languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more (Roman)
> * languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
> their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
> name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
> * ...
>
> Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail, just answer
> the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Andrew Hain]

Why on earth would we not (excluding exceptional copyright issues) want to have 
lots of different name:XX tags?

--
Andrew


From: Frederik Ramm 
Sent: 25 March 2020 09:26
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: [Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

Hi,

the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because while we
defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source normally, this
is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single citizen
of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a Russian
name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?

My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).

A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in that
discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the name tag
but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.

Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in OSM. I
have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we also
need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx tags.

In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can demonstrate
that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually using
this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy inflation of
names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" - they come in,
stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and go away
again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and nobody cares
for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed its name
almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are still
what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names suggest a
data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community that
cares for them.

What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted in name
tags? What do you think about

* niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
invented just now)
* popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place names in
these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
or local name
* "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
* languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more (Roman)
* languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
* ...

Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail, just answer
the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Which languages are admissible for name:xx tags?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

the "name:xx" tags are something of an exception in OSM because while we
defer to "local knowledge" as the highest-ranking source normally, this
is not being done for name:xx tags. It is possible for no single citizen
of the city of Karlsruhe to know its Russian name, but still a Russian
name could exist. Who is the highest-ranking source for that?

My guess is that about 5% of name:xx tags in OSM actually represent a
unique name in its own right; all others are either copies of the name
tag ("this city does not have its own name in language XX but I want
every city to have a name:xx tag so I'll just copy the name tag"), or
transliterations (or, worst case, even literal translations).

A while ago we had a longer discussion about Esperanto names; in that
discussion, it was questioned whether Esperanto could be in the name tag
but nobody disputed that adding name:eo tags is ok, even though
Esperanto is an invented (or "constructed") language.

Yesterday someone added a few dozen Klingon names to countries in OSM. I
have reverted that because of a copyright issue, but I think we also
need to discuss which languages we want to accept for name:xx tags.

In my opinion, a name:xx tag should only be added if you can demonstrate
that people natively speaking the living language xx are actually using
this name for this entity. I think we have a very unhealthy inflation of
names in OSM that are added by "single-purpose mappers" - they come in,
stick a name:my-favourite-language tag onto everything, and go away
again. Nobody knows if these names are even correct, and nobody cares
for their maintenance. The country North Macedonia changed its name
almost one year ago, yet roughly half of its ~ 170 name tags are still
what they were before this change. Nobody cares; these names suggest a
data richness that is not backed up by an actual living community that
cares for them.

What are your opinions on which languages should be accepted in name
tags? What do you think about

* niche constructed languages (say, FredLang which has 2 words I
invented just now)
* popular constructed languages (Klingon, Elvish) - note place names in
these languages will often be algorithmically derived from the English
or local name
* "serious" constructed languages (Esperanto)
* languages that once existed but are not natively spoken any more (Roman)
* languages that are natively spoken but their speakers do not have
their own name for the entity in question (instead they use the same
name the locals use, possibly transcribed into a different alphabet)
* ...

Or if you don't have the time to think about this in detail, just answer
the question: tlhIngan Hol - Hlja' or ghobe'?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging