[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Loading dock details

[Kyle Hensel]

Hi all,

Voting has started for Loading dock details. 
https://wiki.osm.org/Proposed_features/Loading_dock_details


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[martianfreeloader]

I am a hiker and a climber, but I made experiences similar to Peter's on 
more than one occasion. I have been led along ways by osmand which were 
mapped as highway=path; obviously by other climbers. They were 
definitely not suitable for folks without climbing experience that want 
to go on a physically demanding hike, but don't want to die.


Imo, scramble would not only include via ferrata. There are many 
paths/scrambles where via ferrata equipment is useless, but where you 
will still very much need your hands and in many cases risk serious 
injury or death if you fall. Yet, these kind of paths/scrambles are 
often not considered "real climbing" in the narrower sense (mountaineers 
would usually still go without rope).


On 15/09/2022 00:03, Peter Elderson wrote:

I am a hiker, not a climber. I remember lots of sections I would have avoided 
if the map had shown them as scrambles. More adventurous people probably would 
seek them out. I like this proposed highway value. I would probably apply it to 
the actual scramble sections, though, not including path sections leading up to 
the scramble part. Renderers can then show the actual scramble sections. For 
routers, it doesn't really matter, because when a section of a path is a 
scramble and you use say a no scramble profile, the route over the path will 
get high penalty and will not gain preference.

If a sign says a path will make you scamble somewhere, map the sign and the 
actual scramble(s), that's what I would do.

Peter Elderson


Op 14 sep. 2022 om 23:47 heeft martianfreeloader  
het volgende geschreven:

In the real world, you will *always* find borderline cases for *any* property.

I don't think it should be an argument against a good proposal. If it were, 
then it could be used against literally *any* tag on osm. (and funnily it 
reliably does come up with any new proposal)





On 14/09/2022 22:59, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
The main problem here is that different people will need (or do not need) to 
use hands,
it also heavily depends on weather and other considtion
How we would deal with such borderline cases?
via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would recommend trying to 
get it first
Sep 14, 2022, 11:42 by hungerb...@gmail.com:
It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for
hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping
balance or be it for pulling up.
Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page,

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble


Thank you in advance
Asa
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Peter Elderson]

I am a hiker, not a climber. I remember lots of sections I would have avoided 
if the map had shown them as scrambles. More adventurous people probably would 
seek them out. I like this proposed highway value. I would probably apply it to 
the actual scramble sections, though, not including path sections leading up to 
the scramble part. Renderers can then show the actual scramble sections. For 
routers, it doesn't really matter, because when a section of a path is a 
scramble and you use say a no scramble profile, the route over the path will 
get high penalty and will not gain preference.

If a sign says a path will make you scamble somewhere, map the sign and the 
actual scramble(s), that's what I would do.

Peter Elderson

> Op 14 sep. 2022 om 23:47 heeft martianfreeloader 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> In the real world, you will *always* find borderline cases for *any* 
> property.
> 
> I don't think it should be an argument against a good proposal. If it were, 
> then it could be used against literally *any* tag on osm. (and funnily it 
> reliably does come up with any new proposal)
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 14/09/2022 22:59, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>> The main problem here is that different people will need (or do not need) to 
>> use hands,
>> it also heavily depends on weather and other considtion
>> How we would deal with such borderline cases?
>> via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would recommend trying 
>> to get it first
>> Sep 14, 2022, 11:42 by hungerb...@gmail.com:
>>It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for
>>hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping
>>balance or be it for pulling up.
>>Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page,
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble
>>
>> 
>>Thank you in advance
>>Asa
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Asa Hundert]

No idea, what should come first, and what should wait. Personally, I
do not see much overlap between a scramble and a via ferrata. A via
ferrata is a highway, where people follow a steel cable and enjoy some
easy climbing, all the while following a simple process, carabiner
click click, so they remain safe; in theory at least. Perhaps, the
proposal should be amended, spelling out, a scramble is "not
technical"? No harness, fall dampener and such equipment, and also no
glacier equipment (not everything SAC T6 is a scramble!)

Am Mi., 14. Sept. 2022 um 23:03 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via
Tagging :
>
>
> via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would recommend trying 
> to get it first
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[martianfreeloader]

I agree, let's get photos! :-)

However, I don't really expect the "grey zone" to be very wide. I guess 
for the vast majority of cases there won't be disagreement between 
different mountaineers on whether you need your hands or not. UIAA for 
example doesn't go into any more detail, either: 
https://theuiaa.org/mountaineering/uiaa-grades-for-rock-climbing/


I also don't expect it to hugely depend on the weather. (not at all 
saying the difficulty stays the same under different conditions, just 
whether you use your hands or not). But I'd use dry conditions as a 
reference.





On 14/09/2022 23:48, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

That is why I ask
"How we would deal with such borderline cases?"
and ask for some guidelines rather than treating is as a blocker.

For example, giving photo examples of mountainous challenging paths
which are  not highway=scramble would be helpful.

Sep 14, 2022, 23:43 by martianfreeloa...@posteo.net:

In the real world, you will *always* find borderline cases for *any*
property.

I don't think it should be an argument against a good proposal. If
it were, then it could be used against literally *any* tag on osm.
(and funnily it reliably does come up with any new proposal)




On 14/09/2022 22:59, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

The main problem here is that different people will need (or do
not need) to use hands,
it also heavily depends on weather and other considtion

How we would deal with such borderline cases?

via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would
recommend trying to get it first


Sep 14, 2022, 11:42 by hungerb...@gmail.com:

It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for
hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping
balance or be it for pulling up.

Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page,

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble



Thank you in advance

Asa



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 156, Issue 25, surface; concrete

[St Niklaas]

Hi John,

Is not it just right to use concrete if your not able to determine what kind of 
surface your looking at ?
Or should we talk with developers of these kind of programms that they should 
do more research before the programs are excepted to use for edits in OSM ?
If you work with JOSM, it is permenantly damaged by prgrams like StreetComplete 
GoMap and others These editors are just as hungry as the old P1&P2 and dont 
respect ways draen closely together besides that the editors lack the right 
menus.

My 10 cnts

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

That is why I ask
"How we would deal with such borderline cases?"
and ask for some guidelines rather than treating is as a blocker.

For example, giving photo examples of mountainous challenging paths
which are  not highway=scramble would be helpful.

Sep 14, 2022, 23:43 by martianfreeloa...@posteo.net:

> In the real world, you will *always* find borderline cases for *any* property.
>
> I don't think it should be an argument against a good proposal. If it were, 
> then it could be used against literally *any* tag on osm. (and funnily it 
> reliably does come up with any new proposal)
>
>
>
>
> On 14/09/2022 22:59, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>
>> The main problem here is that different people will need (or do not need) to 
>> use hands,
>> it also heavily depends on weather and other considtion
>>
>> How we would deal with such borderline cases?
>>
>> via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would recommend trying 
>> to get it first
>>
>>
>> Sep 14, 2022, 11:42 by hungerb...@gmail.com:
>>
>>  It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for
>>  hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping
>>  balance or be it for pulling up.
>>
>>  Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page,
>>  
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble
>>  
>> 
>>
>>  Thank you in advance
>>
>>  Asa
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[martianfreeloader]

In the real world, you will *always* find borderline cases for *any* 
property.


I don't think it should be an argument against a good proposal. If it 
were, then it could be used against literally *any* tag on osm. (and 
funnily it reliably does come up with any new proposal)





On 14/09/2022 22:59, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
The main problem here is that different people will need (or do not 
need) to use hands,

it also heavily depends on weather and other considtion

How we would deal with such borderline cases?

via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would recommend 
trying to get it first



Sep 14, 2022, 11:42 by hungerb...@gmail.com:

It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for
hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping
balance or be it for pulling up.

Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page,

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble



Thank you in advance

Asa



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

The main problem here is that different people will need (or do not need) to 
use hands,
it also heavily depends on weather and other considtion

How we would deal with such borderline cases?

via ferrata value is far more likely to succeed and I would recommend trying to 
get it first


Sep 14, 2022, 11:42 by hungerb...@gmail.com:

>
> It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for hiking 
> paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping balance or be it 
> for pulling up.
>
>
> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page, > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble
>
>
> Thank you in advance
>
>
> Asa
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Janko Mihelić]

This is a bit similar to highway=via_ferrata which is a pretty heavily used
tag (2701 objects).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata

Via ferrata needs to have infrastructure like rungs, ladders, bridges and
similar. I guess scramble would be similar, but without those elements.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

Le 14.09.22 à 11:42, Asa Hundert a écrit :
It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for 
hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping 
balance or be it for pulling up


this is in direct conflict with
highway=path sac_scale=demanding_mountain_hiking and upper value
while being ultra restrictive as it would only apply to hiking trails.
if the aim is to inform about accessibility according to possible 
physical handicaps, a tag about this handicap would be more practical as 
it could also apply to other objects


Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Anne- Karoline Distel]

 
 I was sceptical at first, but after looking at the example, I understand the necessity for hikers. However, I'm not entirely convinced it classifies as a "highway", because there doesn't seem to be a clear way visible; you just try to get from A to B as best you can.--Sent from my Android phone with WEB.DE Mail. Please excuse my brevity.On 14/09/2022, 10:47 Asa Hundert  wrote:

  
   It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for hiking paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping balance or be it for pulling up.
   Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble
   Thank you in advance
   Asa
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble

[Asa Hundert]

It is proposed to create the tag highway=scramble as a base tag for hiking
paths, where use of hands is required, be that for keeping balance or be it
for pulling up.

Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page,
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/highway%3Dscramble

Thank you in advance

Asa
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