Re: [Tagging] breads of bakeries

[Hauke Stieler]

Sorry, forgot the link

[0] 
https://www.germany.travel/en/experience-enjoy/german-bread-and-baked-goods.html


On 10.05.24 11:10, Hauke Stieler wrote:

Hi,

I'm with some other folks here: Tagging specific types of bread seems 
not a good idea. At least in Germany there are a lot of different 
types [0], bakeries change their offers every few months and many 
larger bakeries have like ten or twenty types of bread. Also, some 
bakeries give names to their breads (e.g. "King Ludwig Bread") that do 
not indicate the type of bread. Some names are different between 
bakery chains or regions but mean the same type of bread and vice 
versa, the name if the same but the type of bread is different (due to 
regional differences or simply other recipes).


I think it's a good idea to extend the "diet:*=*" tags (e.g. 
"diet:wholegrain=yes|no|only"), because it's a more general tag 
(supermarkets might also sell wholemeal-products) and more common than 
"bread:*=*". However, bread-specific classes/categories could indeed 
be added with "bread:*=*", like "bread:rye=yes|no|only" etc.


Cheers
Hauke

On 02.05.24 10:16, iriman--- via Tagging wrote:

Hi
I've tagged a few bakeries for the bread they sell.
At first I used semicolon to separate values:

shop=bakery
bread=x;y;z

Since I'm focused on adding/updating bakeries that are using 
wholemeal flour in their products, I added a general tag 
bread:wholemeal=yes.


But this tag was too general because some bakeries sell more than one 
type of bread and not all of them are made of wholemeal flour. So I 
decided to separate values with a namespace scheme:


shop=bakery
bread:x=yes
bread:y=yes
bread:z=yes

and expanded this tagging by another tag per bread to know if it's 
made of wholmeal flour:


bread:x:wholemeal=yes
bread:z:wholemeal=yes

By this method it's possible to face a long list of tags of bread 
types for a single bakery and also a lot of namespaced keys in 
general, as pointed by mueschel:


<https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/150528116>

So is it better to retag like first tagging and also add the 
bread:wholemeal with semicolon-separeted values?


shop=bakery
bread=x;y;z
bread:wholemeal=x;z

or any other suggestion?

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] breads of bakeries

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

I'm with some other folks here: Tagging specific types of bread seems 
not a good idea. At least in Germany there are a lot of different types 
[0], bakeries change their offers every few months and many larger 
bakeries have like ten or twenty types of bread. Also, some bakeries 
give names to their breads (e.g. "King Ludwig Bread") that do not 
indicate the type of bread. Some names are different between bakery 
chains or regions but mean the same type of bread and vice versa, the 
name if the same but the type of bread is different (due to regional 
differences or simply other recipes).


I think it's a good idea to extend the "diet:*=*" tags (e.g. 
"diet:wholegrain=yes|no|only"), because it's a more general tag 
(supermarkets might also sell wholemeal-products) and more common than 
"bread:*=*". However, bread-specific classes/categories could indeed be 
added with "bread:*=*", like "bread:rye=yes|no|only" etc.


Cheers
Hauke

On 02.05.24 10:16, iriman--- via Tagging wrote:

Hi
I've tagged a few bakeries for the bread they sell.
At first I used semicolon to separate values:

shop=bakery
bread=x;y;z

Since I'm focused on adding/updating bakeries that are using wholemeal 
flour in their products, I added a general tag bread:wholemeal=yes.


But this tag was too general because some bakeries sell more than one 
type of bread and not all of them are made of wholemeal flour. So I 
decided to separate values with a namespace scheme:


shop=bakery
bread:x=yes
bread:y=yes
bread:z=yes

and expanded this tagging by another tag per bread to know if it's 
made of wholmeal flour:


bread:x:wholemeal=yes
bread:z:wholemeal=yes

By this method it's possible to face a long list of tags of bread 
types for a single bakery and also a lot of namespaced keys in 
general, as pointed by mueschel:




So is it better to retag like first tagging and also add the 
bread:wholemeal with semicolon-separeted values?


shop=bakery
bread=x;y;z
bread:wholemeal=x;z

or any other suggestion?

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] Drawing/painting schools

[Hauke Stieler]

I also think that art_school is a better value than my suggested ones, it is 
also used more often.

As Martin asked: In your opinion would art_school also include institutions to 
learn about film making, printing, graphics design and stuff like that?

Hauke

Am Mittwoch, 9. Dezember 2020, 02:30:59 CET schrieb Joseph Eisenberg:
> Yes, amenity=art_school appears to be the most common way to map places
> that offer training in the visual arts.
> 
> — Joseph Eisenberg
> 
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 4:06 PM Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> > On 12/8/20 16:12, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > today I encountered a drawing/painting school [0] that offers workshops
> > 
> > and
> > 
> > > classes for children and adults. Is there a tag for these schools? I
> > 
> > haven't
> > 
> > > found any, so how about establishing amenity=painting_school (or
> > > =drawing_school?) analogous to amenity=music_school. Any thoughts on
> > 
> > that?
> > 
> > > Hauke
> > 
> > How about amenity=art_school, with another tag to indicate the specific
> > disciplines of art being taught?
> > 
> > --
> > Shawn K. Quinn 
> > http://www.rantroulette.com
> > http://www.skqrecordquest.com
> > 
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[Tagging] Drawing/painting schools

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

today I encountered a drawing/painting school [0] that offers workshops and 
classes for children and adults. Is there a tag for these schools? I haven't 
found any, so how about establishing amenity=painting_school (or 
=drawing_school?) analogous to amenity=music_school. Any thoughts on that?

Hauke

[0] https://maldumal.de/hamburg/ (unfortunately there's no English version of 
that site)



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Re: [Tagging] Is it bicycle_parking=stands?

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

the wiki [0] said for the tag "bicycle_parking=stands":

"Use this tag for non-rectangular stands as well (e.g. round ones, fancy
artistic ones, long ones allowing to attach more than two vehicles). "

Sounds to me like your O-shaped frame is a stand. I also already mapped
frames similar to the one in your example as stands.

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bicycle_parking

On 05.07.20 12:52, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
> In use it is a bicycle parking stand, you
> can attach a bicycle by frame,
> frame is supported.
> 
> But it is not in a traditional reversed U
> shape, but rather in O shape
> 
> https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABicycle_parking_-_stand_in_ring_form.jpg
> 
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Re: [Tagging] natural=water inside natural=wetland

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

I would create a multipolygon for that. Wetland is something different
than a lake/pond.

For wetland the wiki says, that wetland areas contain "characteristic
vegetation that is adapted to its unique soil conditions" [0]. A lake
obviously doesn't (at least no land-vegetation like grass and bushes)
and this is why an area cannot be wetland *and* lake at the same time.
And this is why I consider a multipolygon to be correct.

There might be situations, where two different areas have to be on top
of each other (e.g. a wetland area within a forest where trees are
growing also within the wetland area?), but I thing most of the time
there's only one landuse that fits.

Of course there might be some discussion but I would consider a
multipolygon to be correct in your specific example.

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dwetland

On 30.04.20 16:36, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> Consider a wetland that contains a water body. I'm used to map that as
> natural=water inside natural=wetland - no multipolygon fanciness, just
> one on top of the other. JOSM validator complains about it, which irks
> me, so I opened a ticket at https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19171 -
> where mdk suggests that I may be doing it wrong...
> 
> Is my simple way incorrect ? It feels correct to me because wetlands are
> complex objects - water bodies are part of them, cross them or partially
> overlap them. From a tagging point of view, it implies that some area is
> both natural=water and natural=wetland - I see no problem with that...
> But others might consider that a logical impossibility.
> 
> So, which is the correct way: plain natural=water inside
> natural=wetland, or a natural=water multipolygon with natural=wetland on
> its inner ?
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Food sharing

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

sometimes people just use boxes or the basket of an old bicycle for food
sharing purposes. Because they are usually not inside a building or
something, I would add the "covered=*" tag to your list.

I also would use the "contact:*" keys (for the website, facebook, other
social media channels, etc.). The "contact:facebook" key is also used
more often and I personally like the contact scheme. Some boxed may also
have other contact options (email, phone, instagram, twitter, ...). I
know the whole contact-scheme-thing might end up in a large discussion,
but I just wanted to mention it.

But the general proposal looks good, the tagging is simple and
everything is straight forward :)

Hauke

On 26.02.20 09:47, Markus Peloso wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/food_sharing
> 
>  
> 
> «A shelf/box/fridge where people drop off and pick up food in the sense
> of free sharing and/or to reduce food waste.»
> 
>  
> 
> Hi
> 
>  
> 
> I added the current proposal for food sharing I made to the wiki.
> 
>  
> 
> What do you think about it?
> 
>  
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Markus
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

> I too prefer 'fixed'.
> 
> Foldable, is also in some sense irremovable/unremovable (spell check objects) 
> where as I think 'fixed' is a better description as it implies not foldable, 
> removeable nor lowerable. 

I was starting to write a whole page why I don't like "fixed" instead of
"unremovable" but the more I think about this, the more I like the value
"fixed".

One thing I worried about were flexible/soft bollards [0]. I would not
describe them as "fixed" regarding their ability to
move/bend/rotate/..., but they still remain on their location on the
ground, even though they are flexible. Therefore this would make sense
to call them "fixed".

I currently don't know that a "lowerable" bollard looks like and how it
works. Do you have an example?



I would love to hear some feedback on these two values:

"fixed":
A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
cause severe damage to it. If a bollard has some sort of lock to remove
it, it's *not* fixed.

"foldable":
A bollard which can be rotated so it lays on the ground so that e.g.
vehicles can pass it [1]. Some kind of key or wrench might be needed.
This bollard can easily be moved back to it's previous position with no
damage left.



Hauke

[0] https://www.postguard.com/image/catalog/flexbol3.jpg
[1]
https://www.ledasecurity.com.au/lda/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/510da3693ad569fe75e5fdbeab5e8aaa.jpg



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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Approved - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi all,

thanks for all the feedback and voting. The proposal for tax free
shopping and the "duty_free" tag has been approved: 13 votes, 2 against,
1 abstain.

Currently there's a discussion ongoing about the calculation when there
are "abstain" votes. So here are some approval calculations all leading
to an approval of the proposal:

* Support with "abstain" counted as "oppose": 10/13 = 77%
* Support with "abstain" counted as "approve": 11/13 = 85%
* Support without "abstain" in the vote count: 10/12 = 83%

I'll set up according tag pages as soon as possible.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Hauke Stieler]

I don't have real data to check your statement (except the mapped
bollards in OSM) but personally I don't know if that's true for all
regions. I personally have the feeling that the amount is at least equal
and in Hamburg, Germany I have the impression that more bollars are
removable then unremovable.

On 15.02.20 21:15, John Sturdy wrote:
> I think that by default bollards are not removable, and that if a
> bollard is not tagged as removable, it is reasonable to assume it's not
> removable.



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[Tagging] Unremovable bollards

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi all,

there's the "bollard" key with documented value "rising" and "removable"
[0] but I often encounter also bollards which cannot be removed easily.
I would love to see the "unremovable" value in the documentation. Should
I open a proposal page for this one value? That sounds a bit of an
overkill to me.

My suggestion is the value "unremovable":
A bollard which cannot be removed without destroying it or at least
cause severe damage to it. A bollard which can only be removed by
authorized people with some sort of key is still "removable".

I would not use the value "fixed" or "irremovable" for two reasons: The
"unremovable" value is used more often [1] and would be a good
counter-value for "removable".

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bollard
[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=bollard#values



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - in-kind_donation

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

I have some feedback for you:

1.)
I'm not a native English spearker and personally never heard of "in-kind
donations" before, so maybe a short description/definition might be
needed/helpful.

2.)
According to [0] the convention for separation word in a key is the
underscore. So I would change the key to "in_place_donations".

3.)
Maybe give some examples for tagging. Something like: "A shop accepting
X in-kind donation for organization Y would be tagged like this: ..."

Hauke

[0]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Syntactic_conventions_for_new_tags

On 15.02.20 17:56, Markus Peloso wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/in-kind_donation
> 
>  
> 
> For a place that takes in-kind donations.
> 
>  
> 
> Hi
> 
>  
> 
> I describe a tag for shop and amenity that takes in-kind donations. I'm
> interested in your opinions.
> 
>  
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Markus
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

just a reminder that voting ends on Saturday ;)

Hauke

On 28.01.20 21:38, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I finally set the status to "voting" of the tax-free proposal. This ends
> on 2020-02-15 (a bit more than two weeks).
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback and happy voting.
> 
> Hauke
> 
> 
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi everyone,

I finally set the status to "voting" of the tax-free proposal. This ends
on 2020-02-15 (a bit more than two weeks).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping

Thanks for all the feedback and happy voting.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Sorry for the possible confusion:

All the things you said sound still fine and logic to me, but the user
"marc_marc_irc" made a good point: We only need three values for
"duty_free=*": yes, no and refund.

What do you think of a scheme where we say:

* duty_free=yes
Travelers exporting things don't pay taxes at all. Domestic customers
are probably allowed to buy things here but have to pay normal taxes.

* duty_free=no
Everybody pays taxes and the shop does not assist the customers to get a
refund. However going to the customs and managing everything yourself is
still possible of course.

* duty_free=refund
Everybody pays taxes but the shop offers further assistance so that
customers exporting products get their taxes back.

Further details about the companies would still be specified using the
current tags with "duty_free:refund:*=*":

duty_free:refund:global_blue=*
duty_free:refund:gb_free_taxes=*
...


Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

> if you dislike duty_free=limited, maybe duty_free=refund
> is more understandable

I had the idea of "duty_free=" before, but it changed to
the current scheme with "duty_free:refund=*" during the discussion.

However, I can definitely imagine going back to
"duty_free=" with the additional tags
"duty_free:refund:*=*" like this:

duty_free=refund
duty_free:refund:global_blue=yes
duty_free:refund:gb_free_taxes=no
...

This also makes sense as there are four combinations of "duty_free=" and
"duty_free:refund=" where one combination doesn't make sense
(duty_free=no with duty_free:refund=yes).

I'll wait a bit for further discussion about this and then may change
the wiki.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

There was an Email from Mateusz Konieczny a bit earlier making a very
good point:

There is the general "duty_free=*" and more specific
"duty_free:refund=*" tag, but also very specific "duty_free:refund:*=*"
tags. In OSM we usually add also the more general tags like this:

emergency=fire_hydrant
fire_hydrant:position=sidewalk
...

And I think this makes also sense for the duty_free-tag when we say
"duty_free=yes" means: A traveler doesn't have to pay taxes, either by
paying less or by getting them back.

When you additionally add "duty_free:refund=yes" (and additionally maybe
more specific ones), there wouldn't be a need for a "limited" value.
This combination would say: A traveler doesn't have to pay taxes here
because the shop offers support in getting them back.

A shop at an airport where travelers generally pay no taxes would be
tagged with "duty_free=yes" and optionally with "duty_free:refund=no".

I hope this also makes sense to you.

On 17.01.20 12:27, marc marc wrote:
> Le 17.01.20 à 01:32, Hauke Stieler a écrit :
>>> I see 3 levels :
>>> the customer doesn't pay the tax duty_free=yes
>>> the customer pay the tax but the shop help for a refund
>>> the customer pay the tax and the shop doesn't help a refund duty_free=no
>>
>> Exactly, this is the basic idea for the scheme (added these points to
>> the wiki page). There might be some special cases, but they're probably
>> very rare.
> 
> if so, the level between =no and =yes is imho better tagged
> with duty_free=limited like it exist for wheelchair.
> it would avoid having incompatible combinations between 2 tags (like
> duty_free=yes duty_free:refund=yes... you can't get help for a refund if
> you didn't pay the tax at all)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

> I see 3 levels :
> the customer doesn't pay the tax duty_free=yes
> the customer pay the tax but the shop help for a refund
> the customer pay the tax and the shop doesn't help a refund duty_free=no

Exactly, this is the basic idea for the scheme (added these points to
the wiki page). There might be some special cases, but they're probably
very rare.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

> about : duty_free:refund=yes
> is it an intermediate level between duty_free=yes and duty_free=no ?
> if yes, wouldn't it be better to use duty_free=limited ?
I wouldn't say "duty_free:refund=yes" is something in between
"duty_free=yes" and "=no" but rather a different type of duty_free-ness.

When a shop is tagged with "duty_free:refund=yes" a customer has to pay
the normal price and the shop helps the customer to later get the tax back.

In a normal duty-free-shop (with "duty_free=yes") you don't pay any
taxes (at least as traveler when exporting the product).

In the end it doesn't matter if I pay taxes and get them pack or if I
don't pay taxes from the beginning on. That's why I wouldn't say it's
"in between" or "limited".

> about "global_blue" and the following : what is that ?
> maybe add a link.
I didn't knew them either. Those are companies which handle the refund
process and take care of the financial transactions for that (as far as
I understand them). I'll add some links to the wiki page.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Thanks for the hint, I added it to the wiki entry :)

On 16.01.20 23:08, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> I would consider explicit mention that typical shop should not be tagged
> with
> duty_free=no (only in cases where shop used to be or can be expected to
> be duty free,
> for example in an airport it potentially makes sense to use that tag)
> 
> 
> 16 Jan 2020, 21:28 by m...@hauke-stieler.de:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> just a reminder, that the proposal "tax_free_shopping" [0] is still in
> the state "proposed". However, I'd like to start voting soon, so please
> take a look at the proposal and let me know if something needs to be
> changed.
> 
> Hauke
> 
> [0]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping
> 
> On 04.01.20 19:47, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> you may noticed the discussion "Tag for 'tax free shopping'" on this
> mailing list. This is the proposal for the new "duty_free" tag.
> 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping
> 
> Basically the new tag has three values:
> 
> * yes:
> This shop does not collect taxes at all. This usually happens at
> airports in "duty-free stores".
> 
> * refund:
> For shops outside an airport. Foreign travelers shopping in a
> shop with
> duty_free=refund can get an additional receipt which can be -- e.g.
> later at the airport -- exchanged so that the traveler gets the
> taxes back.
> 
> * no:
> All customers of a shop with duty_free=no have to pay normal taxes.
> 
> Feel free to comment :)
> 
> Hauke
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

just a reminder, that the proposal "tax_free_shopping" [0] is still in
the state "proposed". However, I'd like to start voting soon, so please
take a look at the proposal and let me know if something needs to be
changed.

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping

On 04.01.20 19:47, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> you may noticed the discussion "Tag for 'tax free shopping'" on this
> mailing list. This is the proposal for the new "duty_free" tag.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping
> 
> Basically the new tag has three values:
> 
> * yes:
> This shop does not collect taxes at all. This usually happens at
> airports in "duty-free stores".
> 
> * refund:
> For shops outside an airport. Foreign travelers shopping in a shop with
> duty_free=refund can get an additional receipt which can be -- e.g.
> later at the airport -- exchanged so that the traveler gets the taxes back.
> 
> * no:
> All customers of a shop with duty_free=no have to pay normal taxes.
> 
> Feel free to comment :)
> 
> Hauke
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi Stuart

> I could see : 
> free_water = 
> free_water:container =
> free_water:table= 
If something is for the general public (= anyone) the value is usually
"yes" (as at the "access" tag [0]) and then there are further
restricting values (when there's a "yes" there's mostly at least also a
"no").

What does "must_consume" mean? People visiting this place and consuming
water at that place (e.g. during a dinner in a restaurant)? If that's
the case, then I would use the value "customers" as it is already used
and known for other tags.

> How long does it typically take for the tag allocation decision process
> to be completed?  Do you have an example wiki proposal page ?  
There's a description page on the proposal process [1] describing each
step that should be done.

As an example, there's the proposal page for "amenity=public_bookcase"
[2] which had a rather fast proposal process without much discussion. As
you can see there, it took nearly one month from a first draft to the
accepted tag. As your tag idea and use-cases are quite clear, simple and
would add usable and helpful tags, your proposal probably won't take any
longer than that.

The proposal description page also specifies the recommended duration
the proposal has to stay in one state (e.g. to wait for further
discussion or to wait for people to vote). Don't mind to ask questions
on the proposal process (even though I'm not an expert in this).

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/public_bookcase



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi Stuart,

> The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided
> we will write wiki instructions in this manner. 
No decisions have been made so far. Currently all these mails just
contain ideas and discussions.

I'm personally a fan of the namespace scheme, the one with the ":"
separating parts of a tag. You'll find this e.g. on addresses:

addr:street=*
addr:city=*
addr:housenumber=*
...

Or also for parking situations:

parking:lane=*
parking:lane:left=*
parking:condition=*
...

This semantic separation of a key creates a nice structure and organizes
this huge collection of possible tags into groups.

> I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no  free_water_table=yes/no
Because the beginning of these two tags are the same, for me personally
it's a reason to change them into "free_water:..." tags.

Using this scheme, I can also imagine the following tags (just ideas,
the keys and values are probably not optimal):

free_water=
free_water:container=
free_water:table=
(maybe more...)

However, in the end, there must probably be a tag proposal (a wiki page
describing how the final tags should look like, what they exactly mean,
when to use them, what use-cases do they have, etc.). Everybody can vote
for or against the proposal, therefore it's in the end on the community
to decide what tags become "official".

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

> This model is used for many other tags in OSM. One of the most
> fundamental tags, access=*, uses it to show "access only for customers"
> for example.
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dcustomers .
> free_water=customers would not look out of place at all in that list.

+1
I think the wiki/documentation of the European Water Project should then
describe this in a way that newbies also understand the different values
of the tag.

> The other dimension that has been mentioned, is "bring your own
> container" vs. "we supply the container". Something like
> "container=customer", "container=supplier" or "container=both" perhaps?

Because a "container" could be anything (at a supermarket or kiosk it
could also be a container for food), I suggest something like
"free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability"
refers to the refill service.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Addition of amenity=conference_center to Map Features page

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

I think he misspelled it in the email. The tag page is in British
English [0] and the American English tag "conference_center" has only
been used 44 times.

The word "conference_center" does not appear on the "2.x" branch of iD.
However the documented British English value "conference_centre" does
appear in the presets, which is fine in my opinion.

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dconference_centre

On 12.01.20 14:12, Jez Nicholson wrote:
> Yes, there's a big issue with the tag, it isn't in British English, the
> official language of OSM.
> 
> I'd like to check that iD hasn't got it in its presets.
> 
> On Sat, 11 Jan 2020, 04:05 Joseph Eisenberg,  > wrote:
> 
> Another wiki user recently added amenity=conference_center to the list
> of Map Features, with the description "A large building that is
> designed to hold a convention".
> 
> The linked wiki page, made in January 2015, says "A conference centre
> (convention center - American English) is a large building used to
> hold a convention, where individuals and groups gather to promote and
> share common interests. Convention centers typically offer sufficient
> floor area to accommodate several thousand attendees. Some large
> hotels include a conference center"
> 
> This tag has been used a little over 1000 times, and it is distributed
> in a number of different countries and continents. It was already used
> 100 times back in 2011 and has slowly increased, according to
> https://taghistory.raifer.tech.
> 
> Is there any issue with this tag? Should it be added to Map Features?
> 
> - Joseph Eisenberg
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Givebox

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

I also came along those boxes and love the idea to have a separate tag
for them.

Just some small things:

- There should be an icon on the map. Maybe something like the
shop=charity icon [0] but with a box? Just an idea.

- I think a German "Umsonstladen" is more like a store and less like a
box (even though giveboxes are mentioned on the wikipedia page). However
I also know the term "Tausch-Box" for an actual givebox.

Apart from this, your proposal looks very good to me and so far I don't
have anything to add.

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Charity-14.svg

On 06.01.20 23:41, Markus Peloso wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Givebox
> 
>  
> 
> A facility where people drop off and pick up various types of goods in
> the sense of free sharing.
> 
>  
> 
> Hi
> 
>  
> 
> Based on the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Reuse
> and the
>  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_bookcase tag I
> describe a tag for facilities similar to public bookcases but with all
> kinds of (none food) goods.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for emojis names

[Hauke Stieler]

> I could sort of understand if a business name was an emoji, rather than
> real words, but I'm not aware of any cases of this?

But I would tag a pure emoji-name of a company using the normal "name"
key. However I'm also not aware of any case.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi all,

there was already some feedback (here and on the discussion page) thanks
for that :)

Considering the feedback, I edited the wiki page, adjusted the tagging
scheme and added some examples for tagging situations.

Hauke

On 04.01.20 19:47, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> you may noticed the discussion "Tag for 'tax free shopping'" on this
> mailing list. This is the proposal for the new "duty_free" tag.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping
> 
> Basically the new tag has three values:
> 
> * yes:
> This shop does not collect taxes at all. This usually happens at
> airports in "duty-free stores".
> 
> * refund:
> For shops outside an airport. Foreign travelers shopping in a shop with
> duty_free=refund can get an additional receipt which can be -- e.g.
> later at the airport -- exchanged so that the traveler gets the taxes back.
> 
> * no:
> All customers of a shop with duty_free=no have to pay normal taxes.
> 
> Feel free to comment :)
> 
> Hauke
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

> Absence of such facilities surely applies to 99.% of shops. 
> 
> Nobody is going to want to start to tag the absence of such a service?

Of course nobody would start to do that, but when having "=yes", then I
think there should be a "=no" (even though this is the default case).

And when I think of Reykjavik: Many souvenir-shops will give you
prepared tax-reund-forms and information leaflets, but not all (I don't
know, maybe 50/50). Reykjavik is not that large, so tagging the one half
with "=refund" (or whatever it might be) and the other half with "=no"
would make sense to me.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

> I don't think it can be phrased that way. As for the VAT in the EU,
> everybody who proves that the goods were exported is eligible for a tax
> refund.

you're right, maybe saying that "this shop does not offer any service
(prepared forms, memberships in organizations, etc.) for an
tax-exemption" is better?

Regarding companies/organizations, there's a discussion about that on
the discussion-page of the proposal.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi Martin,

> actually tax collection and exemption are not specifically related to 
> airports, although airports are a typical setting where duty free shops 
> occur, there are also different places where you can find them, so this 
> should be phrased more generically.

I always use "e.g." or "for example" to make clear that airports are not
the only places for this. However, I changed the examples and hopefully
made them better/more general.

Hauke



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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tax free shopping

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

you may noticed the discussion "Tag for 'tax free shopping'" on this
mailing list. This is the proposal for the new "duty_free" tag.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tax_free_shopping

Basically the new tag has three values:

* yes:
This shop does not collect taxes at all. This usually happens at
airports in "duty-free stores".

* refund:
For shops outside an airport. Foreign travelers shopping in a shop with
duty_free=refund can get an additional receipt which can be -- e.g.
later at the airport -- exchanged so that the traveler gets the taxes back.

* no:
All customers of a shop with duty_free=no have to pay normal taxes.

Feel free to comment :)

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

> Which OSM data consumer?
I personally thought of tourists wanting to buy stuff. As you mentioned,
a EU-tourist has no benefit of this duty-free-information, but I also
think of tourists (from) outside the EU.
As a use case: I think of the OsmAnd app filtering for duty-free-shops
where tourists can buy things a bit cheaper. There may be other use
cases as well (printed maps etc.).

> Just a reminder: I didn't start this, I am merely trying to add a
> nuance to the data modelling.
I started this (so every shame on me :D ), I appreciate your feedback.

> I can imagine a shop's membership of a refund scheme to be important,
> and the associated export points/offices (should all be tagged with a
> reference to the refund scheme.)
What do you mean by "refund scheme"?

> By the way, I am assuming that we are only discussing retail purchases
Correct, at least I also assume this.

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,
 
> In terms of tagging, the scenario described could be something like
> duty_free=export - meaning YES if you are exporting it beyond the
> customs union area (~~EU), otherwise NO.

But isn't this always and everywhere the case (as Jarek mentioned before
me)?

My idea of the duty_free tag was to say "This shop offers some
tax-refund-kind-of-service". That domestic passengers are banned from
buying things (or from getting a refund) is something the legal system
of a customs area regulates but that might change (see Brexit).

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

that's true, the EU is one special case here. But would the status of a
traveler influence the tagging schema of "duty_free=*" in your opinion?

Hauke



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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi Javbw,

so you suggest only a "duty_free=" key with the values "yes|no|designated"?

I like your idea of having only one key "duty_free" but I would choose
different values. The tags "duty_free=yes" vs. "=designated" might be
confusing.

My idea:

duty_free=yes
E.g. Shop in international zones (like airports).

duty_free=refund
Normal shops offering tax refund for foreign customers.

duty_free=no
No tax-refund or tax-free shopping. Default value I guess?

I'll write a proposal for this if there's no strong disagreement here.

Greetings,
Hauke

On 26.12.19 06:14, John Willis via Tagging wrote:
> Almost all department stores in Japan advertise this for travelers, as
> it is part of their standardized signage, so you will see it even in
> rural or remote branches (not just near the airport or In. Tokyo.  While
> I wouldn’t expect this service at small shops, it is a common sight to
> see “tax free” or “duty free” here in Japan. Here is the official
> signage seen in many places:
> https://tax-freeshop.jnto.go.jp/eng/step.php
> 
> Yes - This is metadata about the shop. 
> 
> However, in airports, there are pointedly “duty free” shops for (all)
> travelers. that have no ability to collect taxes for any purchase, so
> shop=gifts + duty_free=designated might be a good way to do it for these
> specialty shops in international zones, Compared to shop=supermarket +
> duty_free=yes that would be at a normal market that offers that service
> for foreign travelers who happen to shop there. 
> 
> Javbw
> 
>> On Dec 21, 2019, at 8:16 AM, Joseph Eisenberg
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Just duty_free=yes would be good for a shop in town which offers
>> tax-free sales for international travelers.
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi all,

so I think of creating/establishing two new tags:

shop:duty_free=
-> Shops in airports where nobody has to pay taxes at all (those usual
duty-free shops)

shop:tax_refund=
-> Shops in cities where you pay taxes like in every other shop but(!)
you can get a receipt to get a tax refund later at the airport before
leaving the country. Usually citizens of that country/region won't be
able to get a refund.

Should I really setup a proposal for them? Never wrote a proposal before
and it seems a bit much for two simple tags. What is the usual workflow
for this?

Regards
Hauke

On 20.12.19 14:59, Hauke Stieler wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I recently found several stores (pharmacy, clothing store, jewelery and
> others) which offer "tax free shopping". For those of you who don't know
> it, this works as follows:
> 
> You buy something and next to your normal receipt, you'll also get an
> additional receipt with some tax information on it. When you travel back
> home and come along the airport, you can hand this tax-receipt in and
> get the taxes back.
> 
> Not all shops are offering this service and I couldn't find any suitable
> tag. Does such tag exist or is this something new?
> 
> I think of something like "tax_refund=" or "tax_free=" (for shops at the
> airport where you don't pay any taxes).
> 
> Greetings
> Hauke (aka hauke-stieler)
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi Graeme,

unfortunately the situation is slightly different in Germany. Those
shops I meant are no duty-free shops in general. According to the German
customs [0] the refund of the taxes is also only possible under certain
conditions. As far as I understand it's not possible for me as German
citizen to get tax refund.

Using shop=duty_free would unfortunately remove possible existing tags
like shop=fashion, therefore I hope for additional tags as I mentioned.

Greetings
Hauke

[0]
https://www.zoll.de/EN/Private-individuals/Travel/Leaving-Germany/Tax-free-shopping/tax-free-shopping.html

On 20.12.19 23:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 00:02, Hauke Stieler  <mailto:m...@hauke-stieler.de>> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I recently found several stores (pharmacy, clothing store, jewelery and
> others) which offer "tax free shopping". For those of you who don't know
> it, this works as follows:
> 
> 
>   At least in Australia, & apparently internationally as well, they're
> "duty-free" shops, frequently found at airports, but can also be in just
> normal retail areas.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty-free_shop  
> 
> According to taginfo, shop=duty_free has been used 56 times.
> 
> That may be what you're looking for?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme 
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[Tagging] Tag for "tax free shopping"

[Hauke Stieler]

Hi,

I recently found several stores (pharmacy, clothing store, jewelery and
others) which offer "tax free shopping". For those of you who don't know
it, this works as follows:

You buy something and next to your normal receipt, you'll also get an
additional receipt with some tax information on it. When you travel back
home and come along the airport, you can hand this tax-receipt in and
get the taxes back.

Not all shops are offering this service and I couldn't find any suitable
tag. Does such tag exist or is this something new?

I think of something like "tax_refund=" or "tax_free=" (for shops at the
airport where you don't pay any taxes).

Greetings
Hauke (aka hauke-stieler)



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