Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 31.08.2015 um 12:41 schrieb moltonel 3x Combo :
>
> Between soil, dirt, ground, earth, and mud, dirt is the worst defined
> of the lot, and I would hesitate to use it for anything.


+1. I'm against the proposed mechanical edit.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 01.09.2015 10:38, Anders Fougner wrote:
> My proposal in case someone wants to help beginners with the surface tag:
> *Illustrate* the surface hierarchy somewhere in the OSM wiki (e.g. at
> ).
> Right now the hierarcy is not illustrated, it is just in two tables (unpaved
> and paved). An illustration works better, and the hierarchy can have more
> than two levels.
> 
> Place surface=paved and surface=unpaved at the top, surface=ground etc on
> the next level and probably surface=wood, clay, mud, etc. at the bottom.

It's similar to the access hierarchy, so we could illustrate the tree in the
same way.

However, be aware that the more levels you create, the more likely we'll
encounter the multiple-parents problem. E.g. when we declare a group for
natural surfaces and one for artificial surfaces, then we need to put gravel
and sand into both groups, which makes it too complicated.

-- 
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 02/09/2015, Friedrich Volkmann  wrote:
> On 01.09.2015 10:13, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
>> But as a user of surface=soil, could you tell me what difference you
>> see between soil and earth (from an osm POV) ? To me, those two are
>> actual osm synonyms, but 'earth' is documented and 55x more popular.
>
> See my other message (Message-ID: <55e55c3e.8010...@volki.at>). Earth is
> documented, but with a wrong descripion, which is worse than no
> documentation at all. I prefer a tag with an obvious meaning over one which
> is ambiguous, unless there's already lots of applications relying on the
> ambiguous tag.

Well that's the point, it's not obvious at all, otherwise I wouldn't
have asked. Or rather, the obvious (to me) definition of both earth
and soil lead me to believe that they are synonyms for the OSM
usecase.

If the definition is wrong, discuss and correct it. If there's really
a nuance between soil and earth/ground/dirt that make soil usefull as
a distinct value, then document it.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Anders Fougner]

Den 31.08.15 12.41, skrev moltonel 3x Combo:

On 31/08/2015, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

I would be careful here - 'dirt' is essentially a very vague term which
probably originates from the concept of 'dirt roads' here.  'Soil' in
the other hand is fairly precise, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil

Only parts of the earth surface are actually covered by soil so if a way
is correctly tagged with surface=soil (and i don't know if that is the
case for the 400 cases you mention) this is something specific and
potentially useful and should not be degraded by turning it into
something as vague as surface=dirt.

In general i think surface=ground is the most sensible tag for tagging
ways that are just established somewhere without notible construction
work when you can't be more specific - it implies that the way surface
is essentially the ground there in its natural state.  surface=dirt
OTOH can mean anything from the remaining tracks of a car driving
across a wayless area to a solidly built gravel road.

Agreed.

Between soil, dirt, ground, earth, and mud, dirt is the worst defined
of the lot, and I would hesitate to use it for anything.

If you do want to consolidate tags, "earth" is a much better synonym
of "soil" and you should probably use that instead.

"Ground" is earth+rocks+sometimes_vegetation. "mud" is earth with a
lot of water and clay.

My proposal in case someone wants to help beginners with the surface tag:
*Illustrate* the surface hierarchy somewhere in the OSM wiki (e.g. at 
).
Right now the hierarcy is not illustrated, it is just in two tables 
(unpaved and paved). An illustration works better, and the hierarchy can 
have more than two levels.


Place surface=paved and surface=unpaved at the top, surface=ground etc 
on the next level and probably surface=wood, clay, mud, etc. at the bottom.


Anders

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 31.08.2015 12:41, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
> If you do want to consolidate tags, "earth" is a much better synonym
> of "soil" and you should probably use that instead.

It's not a synonym either. The wiki said for years that surface=ground is
"probably the same as surface=ground", and now it incorrecty states that it
is "a duplicate of surface=dirt". So this surface=earth tag is totally
spoiled by bad definitions, whereas the meaning of surface=soil is obvious.

Additionally, I consider soil to be soft, whereas earth may be denser
(compacted or containing stones).

-- 
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:13:26 +0200
moltonel 3x Combo  wrote:

> On 01/09/2015, Friedrich Volkmann  wrote:
> > Soil is not dirt. That's why I have used surface=soil myself, and I
> > will revert any automated edit of such kind.
> 
> I agree that soil and dirt are different, and that the mechanical edit
> should not proceed as originaly planned.

People noticing differences between soil, ground, dirt and earth should
propose changing definitions at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface

Currently there is no clear differentiation (IMHO differences -
if any - are too small to be greater than differences between mappers
in interpretation of situation on the ground and normal changes as
result of weather).

Overall in that situation I will not make this edit (I updated
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny
and ).

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 31.08.2015 11:51, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> On Monday 31 August 2015, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>> See
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny
>> /surface%3Dsoil_to_surface%3Ddirt
>>
>> I plan to change surface=soil to surface=dirt. surface=soil is a
>> clear duplicate of surface=dirt. It is also less popular and
>> undocumented on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface .
>> surface=soil usage is slowly increasing and recently passed threshold
>> of 400 entries worldwide. It would be a good idea to retag it to
>> already documented tag before this duplicate gets more popular.

This is nonsense. The fact that this tag is getting popular without editor
support proves that there's good reason for this tag. This is a different
issue than woodchip/woodchips or customer/customers, which only differ by
spelling.

> I would be careful here - 'dirt' is essentially a very vague term which 
> probably originates from the concept of 'dirt roads' here.  'Soil' in 
> the other hand is fairly precise, see
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil

I agree. Soil is not dirt. That's why I have used surface=soil myself, and I
will revert any automated edit of such kind.

> In general i think surface=ground is the most sensible tag for tagging 
> ways that are just established somewhere without notible construction 
> work when you can't be more specific - it implies that the way surface 
> is essentially the ground there in its natural state.

Yes, and surface=soil is a subset of surface=ground, which in turn is a
subset of surface=unpaved.

-- 
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 01/09/2015, Friedrich Volkmann  wrote:
> Soil is not dirt. That's why I have used surface=soil myself, and I
> will revert any automated edit of such kind.

I agree that soil and dirt are different, and that the mechanical edit
should not proceed as originaly planned.

But as a user of surface=soil, could you tell me what difference you
see between soil and earth (from an osm POV) ? To me, those two are
actual osm synonyms, but 'earth' is documented and 55x more popular.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Dave Swarthout]

I could have predicted this result. A bunch of squabbling over terminology.
It never fails to happen and is one reason I stopped contributing to these
discussions. Every one sees things differently. It's amazing that OSM has
come as far as it has!

Just go ahead and map things the way you see them in your country. Nobody
will agree in any case and once done, it's done.

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Anders Fougner 
wrote:

> Den 31.08.15 12.41, skrev moltonel 3x Combo:
>
>> On 31/08/2015, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
>>
>>> I would be careful here - 'dirt' is essentially a very vague term which
>>> probably originates from the concept of 'dirt roads' here.  'Soil' in
>>> the other hand is fairly precise, see
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil
>>>
>>> Only parts of the earth surface are actually covered by soil so if a way
>>> is correctly tagged with surface=soil (and i don't know if that is the
>>> case for the 400 cases you mention) this is something specific and
>>> potentially useful and should not be degraded by turning it into
>>> something as vague as surface=dirt.
>>>
>>> In general i think surface=ground is the most sensible tag for tagging
>>> ways that are just established somewhere without notible construction
>>> work when you can't be more specific - it implies that the way surface
>>> is essentially the ground there in its natural state.  surface=dirt
>>> OTOH can mean anything from the remaining tracks of a car driving
>>> across a wayless area to a solidly built gravel road.
>>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> Between soil, dirt, ground, earth, and mud, dirt is the worst defined
>> of the lot, and I would hesitate to use it for anything.
>>
>> If you do want to consolidate tags, "earth" is a much better synonym
>> of "soil" and you should probably use that instead.
>>
>> "Ground" is earth+rocks+sometimes_vegetation. "mud" is earth with a
>> lot of water and clay.
>>
> My proposal in case someone wants to help beginners with the surface tag:
> *Illustrate* the surface hierarchy somewhere in the OSM wiki (e.g. at <
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface>).
> Right now the hierarcy is not illustrated, it is just in two tables
> (unpaved and paved). An illustration works better, and the hierarchy can
> have more than two levels.
>
> Place surface=paved and surface=unpaved at the top, surface=ground etc on
> the next level and probably surface=wood, clay, mud, etc. at the bottom.
>
> Anders
>
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 31 August 2015, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> See
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny
>/surface%3Dsoil_to_surface%3Ddirt
>
> I plan to change surface=soil to surface=dirt. surface=soil is a
> clear duplicate of surface=dirt. It is also less popular and
> undocumented on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface .
> surface=soil usage is slowly increasing and recently passed threshold
> of 400 entries worldwide. It would be a good idea to retag it to
> already documented tag before this duplicate gets more popular.

I would be careful here - 'dirt' is essentially a very vague term which 
probably originates from the concept of 'dirt roads' here.  'Soil' in 
the other hand is fairly precise, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil

Only parts of the earth surface are actually covered by soil so if a way 
is correctly tagged with surface=soil (and i don't know if that is the 
case for the 400 cases you mention) this is something specific and 
potentially useful and should not be degraded by turning it into 
something as vague as surface=dirt.

In general i think surface=ground is the most sensible tag for tagging 
ways that are just established somewhere without notible construction 
work when you can't be more specific - it implies that the way surface 
is essentially the ground there in its natural state.  surface=dirt 
OTOH can mean anything from the remaining tracks of a car driving 
across a wayless area to a solidly built gravel road.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 31/08/2015, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> I would be careful here - 'dirt' is essentially a very vague term which
> probably originates from the concept of 'dirt roads' here.  'Soil' in
> the other hand is fairly precise, see
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil
>
> Only parts of the earth surface are actually covered by soil so if a way
> is correctly tagged with surface=soil (and i don't know if that is the
> case for the 400 cases you mention) this is something specific and
> potentially useful and should not be degraded by turning it into
> something as vague as surface=dirt.
>
> In general i think surface=ground is the most sensible tag for tagging
> ways that are just established somewhere without notible construction
> work when you can't be more specific - it implies that the way surface
> is essentially the ground there in its natural state.  surface=dirt
> OTOH can mean anything from the remaining tracks of a car driving
> across a wayless area to a solidly built gravel road.

Agreed.

Between soil, dirt, ground, earth, and mud, dirt is the worst defined
of the lot, and I would hesitate to use it for anything.

If you do want to consolidate tags, "earth" is a much better synonym
of "soil" and you should probably use that instead.

"Ground" is earth+rocks+sometimes_vegetation. "mud" is earth with a
lot of water and clay.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit: surface=soil to surface=dirt

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:51:38 +0200
Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Monday 31 August 2015, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > See
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny
> >/surface%3Dsoil_to_surface%3Ddirt
> >
> > I plan to change surface=soil to surface=dirt. surface=soil is a
> > clear duplicate of surface=dirt. It is also less popular and
> > undocumented on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface .
> > surface=soil usage is slowly increasing and recently passed
> > threshold of 400 entries worldwide. It would be a good idea to
> > retag it to already documented tag before this duplicate gets more
> > popular.
> 
> I would be careful here - 'dirt' is essentially a very vague term
> which probably originates from the concept of 'dirt roads' here.
> 'Soil' in the other hand is fairly precise, see
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil
> 
> Only parts of the earth surface are actually covered by soil so if a
> way is correctly tagged with surface=soil (and i don't know if that
> is the case for the 400 cases you mention) this is something specific
> and potentially useful and should not be degraded by turning it into 
> something as vague as surface=dirt.
> 
> In general i think surface=ground is the most sensible tag for
> tagging ways that are just established somewhere without notible
> construction work when you can't be more specific - it implies that
> the way surface is essentially the ground there in its natural
> state.  surface=dirt OTOH can mean anything from the remaining tracks
> of a car driving across a wayless area to a solidly built gravel road.
> 

You may want to edit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface
- currently surface=ground is described there as "No special surface,
  the ground itself has marks of human or animal usage. This value gives
  only a rough description; if possible, use a more precise value such
  as grass, dirt, clay, sand, gravel, pebblestone or rock.".

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