Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Cafe - Place to buy and consume light snacks and NON-Alcoholic Drinks (Tea, Coffee, Coke etc) on site. Usually Unlicensed. Good luck finding one in Eastern Europe. Can't survive without selling booze. Alcohol is essential for cafe to survive but otherwise it is clearly cafe. Pub - Place to buy and consume Alcoholic Drinks on site, (may also retail Non-Alcoholic Drinks, Snacks and sometimes Food) Mostly food and alcohol, but heavy influence of second one. Food usually not so bad, but very expensive. But mostly I agree with definition. Bar - Place to buy Alcoholic Drinks within a large establishment, maybe with a hotel, or holiday complex, may share its seating with other vendors. Not only. Bars sometimes are single entities, combined with several slot machines. The line is weather it sells Beer, or other Alcoholic Beverages, Line to distuingish what? Peter. Cheers, also Peter :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/20 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org In my book its easy. Cafe - Place to buy and consume light snacks and NON-Alcoholic Drinks (Tea, Coffee, Coke etc) on site. Usually Unlicensed. in many countries you will find alcohol in cafés as well. In a café I would before all expect a professional coffee-machine and someone able to use it properly. Then I would expect a certain style (chairs and tables), opened usually from morning (or noon) to the evening, sometimes nighttime, almost never till very late. Snacks I would usually replace with cake and cookies. Pub - Place to buy and consume Alcoholic Drinks on site, (may also retail Non-Alcoholic Drinks, Snacks and sometimes Food) might also retail alcoholic drinks (in Germany and Italy, they do all, still a German Pub will look different (style) from what the Germans (and not only) call an Irish Pub, which is precisely corresponding to a Pub in the UK/Ireland. Most of the irish pubs offer a small selection of food and snacks, german pubs often don't offer food (unless they call themselfes restaurant). They (mostly, nearly all) do offer draught beer. Bar - Place to buy Alcoholic Drinks within a large establishment, maybe with a hotel, or holiday complex, may share its seating with other vendors. Bars, cafés, restaurants and pubs can all be inside hotels and holiday complexes. You might also very often find a bar in pubs and cafés, usually 1. in northern europe there are mainly night bars (I leave milk bars out of this thread), i.e. mostly frequented at night, they will usually have a professional bartender that mixes all kind of cocktails and longdrinks, probably also have small concerts, sometimes are self service. The seating will be bar stools at the counter and maybe lounge tables and sofas for relaxing. Ususally no food (or just snacks). Sometimes the offer draught beer, sometimes (probably more often) they don't. 2. in southern europe the bar concept is different and goes from breakfast, lunch to pre-dinner. They serve all kind of drinks (also alcoholic), and often offer a small selection of dishes for lunch. In Italy many of them also sell cigarettes. The main use is still serving coffee. They change their use during the day: from (northern europe) café in the morning, to lunch-time-place at noon (kind of cheap pasta restaurant / fast-food like sandwiches) to a place to get an aperitiv before dinner. This kind of bar is found in Italy, Spain, southern France, Portugal, ...). They will (almost all) have a professional coffee machine. Still these places vary from country/culture to culture. IMHO we should continue the way we are going. E.g. I would recommend to tag an Italian bar with amenity=bar but expect something different if I navigate to a Bar in Rome than I would if I went to a Bar in Berlin. Let the mapuser interpret the available information. All Italian Bars call themselves bar. For an Italian (casual) mapper it will be confusing to tag a bar with café (and still café doesn't describe the place well, as an Italian Bar is not a Viennese Café). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. David On 20/01/2010 12:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2010/1/20 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org mailto:pchi...@bcs.org In my book its easy. Cafe - Place to buy and consume light snacks and NON-Alcoholic Drinks (Tea, Coffee, Coke etc) on site. Usually Unlicensed. in many countries you will find alcohol in cafés as well. In a café I would before all expect a professional coffee-machine and someone able to use it properly. Then I would expect a certain style (chairs and tables), opened usually from morning (or noon) to the evening, sometimes nighttime, almost never till very late. Snacks I would usually replace with cake and cookies. Pub - Place to buy and consume Alcoholic Drinks on site, (may also retail Non-Alcoholic Drinks, Snacks and sometimes Food) might also retail alcoholic drinks (in Germany and Italy, they do all, still a German Pub will look different (style) from what the Germans (and not only) call an Irish Pub, which is precisely corresponding to a Pub in the UK/Ireland. Most of the irish pubs offer a small selection of food and snacks, german pubs often don't offer food (unless they call themselfes restaurant). They (mostly, nearly all) do offer draught beer. Bar - Place to buy Alcoholic Drinks within a large establishment, maybe with a hotel, or holiday complex, may share its seating with other vendors. Bars, cafés, restaurants and pubs can all be inside hotels and holiday complexes. You might also very often find a bar in pubs and cafés, usually 1. in northern europe there are mainly night bars (I leave milk bars out of this thread), i.e. mostly frequented at night, they will usually have a professional bartender that mixes all kind of cocktails and longdrinks, probably also have small concerts, sometimes are self service. The seating will be bar stools at the counter and maybe lounge tables and sofas for relaxing. Ususally no food (or just snacks). Sometimes the offer draught beer, sometimes (probably more often) they don't. 2. in southern europe the bar concept is different and goes from breakfast, lunch to pre-dinner. They serve all kind of drinks (also alcoholic), and often offer a small selection of dishes for lunch. In Italy many of them also sell cigarettes. The main use is still serving coffee. They change their use during the day: from (northern europe) café in the morning, to lunch-time-place at noon (kind of cheap pasta restaurant / fast-food like sandwiches) to a place to get an aperitiv before dinner. This kind of bar is found in Italy, Spain, southern France, Portugal, ...). They will (almost all) have a professional coffee machine. Still these places vary from country/culture to culture. IMHO we should continue the way we are going. E.g. I would recommend to tag an Italian bar with amenity=bar but expect something different if I navigate to a Bar in Rome than I would if I went to a Bar in Berlin. Let the mapuser interpret the available information. All Italian Bars call themselves bar. For an Italian (casual) mapper it will be confusing to tag a bar with café (and still café doesn't describe the place well, as an Italian Bar is not a Viennese Café). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Still these places vary from country/culture to culture. IMHO we should continue the way we are going. E.g. I would recommend to tag an Italian bar with amenity=bar but expect something different if I navigate to a Bar in Rome than I would if I went to a Bar in Berlin. Let the mapuser interpret the available information. All Italian Bars call themselves bar. For an Italian (casual) mapper it will be confusing to tag a bar with café (and still café doesn't describe the place well, as an Italian Bar is not a Viennese Café). Seconded. There will be always differences, and we can't cover it all by tagging. Let's do minimum we can. Cheers, Martin P. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/20 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. +1, might work well in English-speaking countries (and where it applies, sometimes establishments have just a name zum goldenen Hirsch and no category in it), all the rest still will have to be evaluated - but I agree: if a bar in Italy is calling themself bar, I would tag it as amenity=bar. btw.: there are also night-clubs and lounges, and there is some overlapping in the definitions. Also for these the self-classification will mostly help. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:00 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. This sounds very good at first sight, but absolutely unworkable at second. Do you really go into The Golden Rose and ask for the owner, only to ask him what kind of business he runs? And things get even more convoluted if you go to non-English speaking countries. Do you ask him to answer you in English? Or do you take the one that sounds closest to whatever he says it is? Or the one that the dictionary says it corresponds to? -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010, David Earl wrote: I still think the most important criterion is what the owner of the establishment says it is, not on the subjective judgement of the surveyor. David In Au McDonalds call themselves Family Restaurants and I call them Fast Food. The subjective work of the surveyor may be far more objective than the subjective work of the owner. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/20 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org In my book its easy. Cafe Usually Unlicensed. Definitely I would not put licenses and other legal stuff into the definition. They differ almost certainly in different countries, are of no importance to the client and hard to research. They might even differ from one city / state to another. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: ... To meet both problems you can only do this: alcohol=yes coffee=no pastries=yes egg chips=yes I like this approach. It makes much more sense than either of the other suggestions, i.e.: 1) inventing complex explicit definitions of what a cafe is, internationally or 2) assuming complex (implicit) definitions of what a cafe is, and having this differ from place to place ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/21 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: ... To meet both problems you can only do this: alcohol=yes coffee=no pastries=yes egg chips=yes I like this approach. yes, it's OK, just it doesn't tell you whether to expect a bar or a café ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/19 Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe the English speaking world should start joining the rest of the world which have to learn definitions of each tag anyway. So OSM may have awkward tags for English speaking persons, but if we really have to try to resolve all tags that would look strange in some language (e.g. amenity=cafe is not what we call a café in Dutch) then the only option would be to use index numbers (amenity=135...) (*). Well, I would say it is part of what we call a café. The problem is more that Dutch uses the same word for what in OSM are three terms: bar, cafe and pub. And moreover, the same place often having the function of all three. To me, it's not the usage of the word cafe in OSM that is strange, but the distinction that is made between the various drinking establishments. A café has a different meaning in different countries. Depending on where you are originating from, you are likely to have a surprise, especially if you are an English speaker and you are going to France. Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Emilie Laffray wrote: Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. I believe that was Ben's point, and this time it's the English-speaking part of the world that should adhere to that advice, for a change. -- Lennard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I would say it is part of what we call a café. The problem is more that Dutch uses the same word for what in OSM are three terms: bar, cafe and pub. And moreover, the same place often having the function of all three. To me, it's not the usage of the word cafe in OSM that is strange, but the distinction that is made between the various drinking establishments. A café has a different meaning in different countries. Depending on where you are originating from, you are likely to have a surprise, especially if you are an English speaker and you are going to France. Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. The problem is that the definition on the wiki makes a distinction which is not made in the Netherlands. A 'café' is a place where drinks can be bought for local consumption. I am to divide these into cafe, pub and bar, based on whether they sell drinks and snacks or light food, sell beverages in a relaxed atmosphere and usually also food or sell beverages in a more party-like atmosphere not selling food. Well, I find this distinction very artificial, because many will fall in all three categories, depending on the time of day - a cafe by day, a pub in the early evening, a bar in the later evening. Should I tag them with all three? And if so, when seeing a cafe during the day, do I need to come back in the evening to listen how loud the music is? -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/19 Lennard l...@xs4all.nl Emilie Laffray wrote: Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. I believe that was Ben's point, and this time it's the English-speaking part of the world that should adhere to that advice, for a change. Yup sorry for not seeing the point. But yes I agree with him. Sorry Ben Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:23 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: In the case of Dutch cafe though, the word has been usurped for a purpose other than its original French meaning (which is pretty much universal I think - French cafes and English cafes are different in character, sure, but they are all restaurants with a limited menu and emphasis on soft and hot drinks, pastries and cold food, maybe not open in the evening), so the Dutch-cafe isn't actually claiming to be a cafe, it's claiming to be a special-Dutch-cafe not because the word cafe means something different in Dutch but because the word has been taken over for another use, and really deserves its own tag IMO. Thanks, that does explain some for me. I guess it means I should retag my cafes to pubs, because that's much more what they are like, and my amenity=restaurant; cuisine=lunch to cafe... -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On 19/01/2010 15:34, Emilie Laffray wrote: 2010/1/19 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com mailto:da...@frankieandshadow.com In the case of Dutch cafe though, the word has been usurped for a purpose other than its original French meaning (which is pretty much universal I think - French cafes and English cafes are different in character, sure, but they are all restaurants with a limited menu and emphasis on soft and hot drinks, pastries and cold food, maybe not open in the evening), I would be hard pressed to eat at a cafe in France. It usually doesn't serve any food, and they have an emphasis on serving alcohol. I guess they are not the same after all. Really? While some English cafes might serve meals, if you can call them that, like Egg and Chips, the French cafes I've been into would typically serve coffee and pastries. But put aside the distinction between soft drinks and alcohol, don't you think there is something different in character between a bar and a cafe in France, that causes the owner to *call* it one or the other (maybe even only for marketing reasons of atmosphere, cachet or desired clientèle than because of any fundamental difference in what it serves)? David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
2010/1/19 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com Really? While some English cafes might serve meals, if you can call them that, like Egg and Chips, the French cafes I've been into would typically serve coffee and pastries. pastries yes but not a given. Food in general no. But put aside the distinction between soft drinks and alcohol, don't you think there is something different in character between a bar and a cafe in France, that causes the owner to *call* it one or the other (maybe even only for marketing reasons of atmosphere, cachet or desired clientèle than because of any fundamental difference in what it serves)? It could be. But it shows that it is difficult to find a proper definition for something like this. The meaning can be quite different. Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/1/19 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com In the case of Dutch cafe though, the word has been usurped for a purpose other than its original French meaning (which is pretty much universal I think - French cafes and English cafes are different in character, sure, but they are all restaurants with a limited menu and emphasis on soft and hot drinks, pastries and cold food, maybe not open in the evening), I would be hard pressed to eat at a cafe in France. It usually doesn't serve any food, and they have an emphasis on serving alcohol. I guess they are not the same after all. Hmmm... Then that's much closer to what I have called cafe after all. In fact, I have used emphasis on serving alcohol upto now as a sort of working definition for bar. Maybe if the meaning of those words is so different, I should not worry about it at all... -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Also, at least in American usage, while a cafe will always sell beverages, it may or may not sell alcoholic beverages. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Andre Engels andreeng...@gmail.com Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 16:06:30 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related toolstagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?) On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I would say it is part of what we call a café. The problem is more that Dutch uses the same word for what in OSM are three terms: bar, cafe and pub. And moreover, the same place often having the function of all three. To me, it's not the usage of the word cafe in OSM that is strange, but the distinction that is made between the various drinking establishments. A café has a different meaning in different countries. Depending on where you are originating from, you are likely to have a surprise, especially if you are an English speaker and you are going to France. Again, it is a case of sticking to the definition used on the wiki, even if it doesn't sound logical based on the usage of the word in your language. The problem is that the definition on the wiki makes a distinction which is not made in the Netherlands. A 'café' is a place where drinks can be bought for local consumption. I am to divide these into cafe, pub and bar, based on whether they sell drinks and snacks or light food, sell beverages in a relaxed atmosphere and usually also food or sell beverages in a more party-like atmosphere not selling food. Well, I find this distinction very artificial, because many will fall in all three categories, depending on the time of day - a cafe by day, a pub in the early evening, a bar in the later evening. Should I tag them with all three? And if so, when seeing a cafe during the day, do I need to come back in the evening to listen how loud the music is? -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
On 19/01/2010 17:42, John F. Eldredge wrote: beverages interestingly, not a word you would often find used in British English. Generally drinks often means alcoholic beverages, though sometimes any depending on context, with soft drinks and hot drinks. pub I'd have thought this is a largely British/Irish phenomenon, yes? Most pubs elsewhere in the world are attempts at emulating or mocking British/Irish pubs, and nearly everywhere else has bars (and we do too, as well as pubs). The micro breweries found in parts of the US come pretty close to the British concept of pub, though no doubt some would want to make the distinction of beer being brewed on the premises (not unknown though in British pubs, though rare - I can think of two, one in Bury St Edmunds and one in Hampshire). But the British pub concept has changed in recent years too as more and more become restaurants, where the drinks are subsidiary to food. I am to divide these into cafe, pub and bar, based on whether they sell drinks and snacks or light food... Not really. I think it's what the operator calls it that counts, not your subjective judgement. The difficulty in France and Netherlands is that the word cafe seems to better correspond to the English usage for bar not cafe, but if there was agreement that this is indeed the case, we could solve it objectively by rote not by judgement. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
